Opinion on P/S Issue

[DBMaster]

About a year ago I started noticing that the power steering would cut out when slowing quickly and would not return until I pressed the accelerator again. The problem resolved when I changed the fluid, but it is intermittent again and, at times, I notice that steering effort is higher at low speeds.

I ended up replacing the big o-ring inside the speed sensor a couple of years ago rather than replacing the whole sensor. I wonder now if the reason you can't buy the o-ring from Honda is that the sensor eventually does wear out.

The steering rack is a reman unit installed in 2003 and currently has about 140,000 miles on it. I suppose it could be something in the valve box.

Just looking for opinions.

Thanks!

[Dr_Snooz]

I would be pretty surprised to see one of those speed sensors wear out. It's just a mechanical pump. Of course, so is the PS pump and it goes bad, so there you go.

There are a number of on-car checks listed in ch. 18 of the manual (http://honda.roadpwnage.com/manuals/pages/usdm-accord-1989-full.php). There's also a troubleshooting section on p. 18-4 you might want to look at. Please post what you learn. I'm facing similar issues as you know.

[AZmike]

If the speed sensor was at fault I would not expect an intermittent problem. I would expect it to leak either internally (consistently reducing working pressure) or externally (obvious leak). The fact that your problem is intermittent makes me think that it's a sticking control valve or an occasionally blocked orifice in the rack. I remember seeing a TSB about a sticking control valve several years ago. I'll see if I can find it again. You lose assist in both directions, right?

[DBMaster]

Yes, both directions. Also, it does seem like I have to apply more effort in low speed situations. That appears to be consistent now.

[DBMaster]

Since a P/S pump seal kit is cheap I am going to try taking the P/S pump apart, cleaning the internals, and reassembling it. The manual indicates that the center section should be replaced as a unit, rather than just replacing faulty check valves. I am not all that confident that the rebuilders do everything that they should with these pumps so I figure what's a couple hours of my time and $15. The diagnosis flow chart in the manual leads me to believe that it may be one of the metering parts in the pump. I guess we'll see.

[Dr_Snooz]

Sweet dude! Take lots of pics.

[DBMaster]

It's a little daunting, but I guess worst case I will have to purchase a new one. When I say "new" I mean rebuilt or used. Based upon what I read in the manual I am thinking I would be better off finding a low mileage used one in the J/Y than I would buying one that is rebuilt. The companies that rebuild them, based upon reports from other forum members, don't inspire much confidence.

[old accord guy]

I have an 89 Accord that was parked for 8 years before I acquired it. I'm surprised the auto trans isn't leaking at the seals but it is fine. My power steering is another matter. Reservoir was very low when I got it. Topped it off with Napa PS fluid. Ran fine for 500 miles, then reservoir very low again. Then boots at the ends of the rack became damp but not wet. Now have virtually no power assist and very rough rack action. I'm inclined to believe the pump is OK because all was well when topped off. I'm thinking of installing a reman rack. Honda warns us NOT to use anybody elses fluid. Is this just a sales pitch or what? Any advise would be appreciated. Thank, Rick

[DBMaster]

It's not just a sales pitch. You can purchase fluid made for Hondas and Acuras at Wal Mart, Auto Zone, etc. as well, but it MUST be the "made for Honda" fluid. I am not sure what is different about it, other than the fact that it is synthetic fluid. You COULD put whatever you want in there if you don't mind leaking seals throughout the rest of the system. I used to be acquainted with a mechanic who got to be the beneficiary of people who were too cheap to spend $2.50 a bottle for Honda fluid.

On another note, once the rack is leaking you are probably going to find what I did. Almost every possible place that could ooze fluid was doing so. The high pressure hose goes out every 100-150K miles. The low pressure hoses will eventually start leaking in various places and the pump itself will either leak at the shaft seal or at one of the case seals.

I have my pump repair kit so we'll see if that resolves my issue.

[nswst8]

The rebuilt one I bought from autozone or oreillys is already leaking and it has trans fluid in it, I thought I had flushed it before installing it. I have to pull it again. Son of a B*tch

[DBMaster]

After doing a little reading in the Honda manual I do not think anyone can do more to "rebuild" the pump than you can at home. A used one is probably better than rebuilt.

[Dr_Snooz]

My power steering is another matter. Reservoir was very low when I got it. Topped it off with Napa PS fluid. Ran fine for 500 miles, then reservoir very low again. Then boots at the ends of the rack became damp but not wet. Now have virtually no power assist and very rough rack action. I'm inclined to believe the pump is OK because all was well when topped off. I'm thinking of installing a reman rack. Honda warns us NOT to use anybody elses fluid. Is this just a sales pitch or what? Any advise would be appreciated. Thank, Rick

^^^ This is basically what will happen if you use the wrong fluid. There's not any real way to fix it without rebuilding everything either. :(

[DBMaster]

It was a little messy, but it's done. Only time will tell if I resolved the issue because I don't normally have it driving around town at lower speeds. It was pretty easy to disassemble and reassemble. The inside of mine is spotlessly clean and I noticed no issues with the fit of the few moving parts.

Sorry, Snooz, no pics. I was too lazy. I had procrastinated enough just getting to the job. The fluid that was in the system looked pretty clean, not very dark at all. So, I'm still not sold on the need for an add-on P/S filter.

[DBMaster]

So far, so good. I'll post an update in about a week. Last time, just changing the P/S fluid resolved the issue for several months so I won't know if it's truly resolved this time for quite a while. The pump seemed to me to be like a work of art or a Swiss watch. It had very few moving parts and they all had beautiful finishes on them and fit together "just so" with no play and very smooth movement. The thing may truly be a "lifetime" item, barring any abuse, running dry, etc.

On the other hand, this makes me think that the pump is probably not the source of my issue. Only time will tell. So, if yours ever starts oozing, buy the $15 seal kit and rebuild it yourself.

[Rendon LX-i]

If the speed sensor was at fault I would not expect an intermittent problem. I would expect it to leak either internally (consistently reducing working pressure) or externally (obvious leak). The fact that your problem is intermittent makes me think that it's a sticking control valve or an occasionally blocked orifice in the rack. I remember seeing a TSB about a sticking control valve several years ago. I'll see if I can find it again. You lose assist in both directions, right?

I agree. sticky control vavle and a clogged orifice will cause a jump in your steering.

[DBMaster]

Earlier I responded to a question by stating that the issue occurred in both directions. Truthfully, I don't know that. I very rarely hammer the brakes before making a left turn, but do it plenty when making right turns. It's just the way I drive. It's a wonder I haven't totaled the car after 22+ years. What happens is that when slowing abruptly and turning to the right the power cuts out completely and the steering sudden gets very heavy. Then, when I give it just a little gas completing the turn the assist comes back. Not something I would want anyone else to experience. It's not as bad for me because I am expecting it.

[DBMaster]

I agree. sticky control vavle and a clogged orifice will cause a jump in your steering.

I meant to ask which control valve we are talking about. Is it the check valve in the P/S pump, or one of the parts in the control unit attached to the rack?

[AZmike]

If it's only in one direction I remember reading that it's likely the control valve in the rack sticking. The extra pressure when you speed up the engine (and pump) might be just enough to free it.

[DBMaster]

I did an archive search and saw that I posted about this issue in March of 2010. Maybe resealing the P/S pump didn't do much, but at least it has all new seals and I know it's fine. For now the problem is gone, but that's probably just because I have new fluid in the system. If it works well for another year I'll be happy. I noticed that one of the small lines from the speed sensor is a bit wet on the outside so I guess I'll be replacing both of those lines next time I flush the fluid out.

[Oldblueaccord]

So far, so good. I'll post an update in about a week. Last time, just changing the P/S fluid resolved the issue for several months so I won't know if it's truly resolved this time for quite a while. The pump seemed to me to be like a work of art or a Swiss watch. It had very few moving parts and they all had beautiful finishes on them and fit together "just so" with no play and very smooth movement. The thing may truly be a "lifetime" item, barring any abuse, running dry, etc.

On the other hand, this makes me think that the pump is probably not the source of my issue. Only time will tell. So, if yours ever starts oozing, buy the $15 seal kit and rebuild it yourself.


I read this but didnt have anything to comment on but....

strangely enough mine leaked in my garage all of a sudden. I have had my car down for about a week for yearly "fix its" and when I went to put all the belts on the power steering pump had leaked out all its fluid.



wp

[DBMaster]

There are only a few seals in the P/S pump. Two large funky diamond shaped o-rings for the body, a special seal for the pistons, a couple of o-rings, and the shaft seal. I'll take you longer to remove the fluid and pump than it will take to clean it up and replace the seals. The stupid kit did not come with a new o-ring for the high pressure hose, though. I had to dig into my "collection" for that.

The control box on the rack has just as many parts and there are seals on that assembly that can leak as well. That's how I lost all my fluid several years ago.

[Dr_Snooz]

Incidentally, since adding the inline filter on my car, I've had no problems with the power cut-out. You might try it.

[DBMaster]

How long ago did you add the filter? Last time I replaced the fluid (which wasn't really dirty that time, either) I got almost a year out of it before it acted up again.

[DBMaster]

Something just occurred to me. Honda specifies that the reservoir is to be replaced any time the P/S system is opened for servicing. That is because, as Snooz taught us, there is a filter in the P/S tank. I wonder if, over time, it gets just restricted enough to prevent adequate fluid flow in certain situations. I suppose it is possible that a situation like that could cause a momentary loss of power steering.

What do you think? I looked at every P/S reservoir I could find online a year or so ago to see if I could sub another vehicle's "filter-less" reservoir and add an inline filter. I don't really want to mess with mine because it is old and the plastic has many tiny "cracks" all over the surface. It's got to be brittle and I don't want to take a chance of rendering it unusable.

There are three hose connections on the current tank. One is an outflow at the bottom that feeds the P/S pump. The other two are returns; one from the rack and the other from the P/S fluid cooler. I was wondering about using a metal hose tee to combine the return lines. That would allow for the use of a reservoir that only has two connections on it. Anybody else do anything like this? Before you say anything, let me state that I do not plan to fabricate my own reservoir (Lost). :)

[DBMaster]

I just did a little further search and it looks like a reservoir from a 1990 Accord could be used without too much trouble. I guess I'll order one of those next time I change the P/S fluid.

[Dr_Snooz]

I got a junkyard reservoir and cut the top off. Pull out the filter and epoxy the top back on. It's worked well since 3/2011.

[DBMaster]

I thought that you said the top was not staying stuck on very well?

[Oldblueaccord]

There are only a few seals in the P/S pump. Two large funky diamond shaped o-rings for the body, a special seal for the pistons, a couple of o-rings, and the shaft seal. I'll take you longer to remove the fluid and pump than it will take to clean it up and replace the seals. The stupid kit did not come with a new o-ring for the high pressure hose, though. I had to dig into my "collection" for that.

The control box on the rack has just as many parts and there are seals on that assembly that can leak as well. That's how I lost all my fluid several years ago.

Yeah im gonna try and pop the seal out and replace it.

There some trouble shooting stuff in one of the manuals. It sometimes sounds like your loosing pressure but unless you have a high pressure gauge that you could watch it be hard to figure out.

Keep flushing the fluid I know its a PIA but either pop the low pressure line off and pump it out or use a turkey baster and get it out of the resivior manually.


wp

[Dr_Snooz]

I thought that you said the top was not staying stuck on very well?

The top came off after about a month when the epoxy failed. That's my fault because I didn't degreaser the surface I applied epoxy to. My projects can span many months between when I get the parts from the junkyard and when I finally install them and get them working properly. I nibble at them here and there as I have time. I thought I had prepped for epoxy, but I hadn't, so I ended up applying epoxy to a surface covered with PS fluid. I cleaned it properly and re-epoxied and it's been a champ since.

Long story short: be sure to clean all surfaces of dust, oil and debris thoroughly before epoxying. LOL

[ecogabriel]

My projects can span many months between when I get the parts from the junkyard and when I finally install them and get them working properly. I nibble at them here and there as I have time.


Well, I may be even worse than you.

For my distributor rebuilt, it took me well over a year from the time I first found who carried the bearing until finally picking up the phone and ordering it. Then another couple of months until I got the time to actually doing it (I used the time right after dissertation defense when I was a little relaxed)

Not having a working space has compounded my procrastination too... :burn:

[DBMaster]

To get the old P/S fluid I disconnect the front return hose and attach it to a longer piece of 3/8" hose using a brass nipple (all joking aside). The end of the long hose goes into a suitable container. You start the car and after about 10-15 seconds almost all the fluid is out. This is pretty similar to the procedure in the manual. I have used my manual vacuum pump on the reservoir, but with the internal filter taking up about 1/3 of the space you can only get about 1/4-1/3 of the fluid out of the system that way.

I thought pretty much the same thing regarding the troubleshooting procedure in the manual. Without additional tools and willingness (on my part) further troubleshooting probably isn't going to happen for a while. I have all my parts set to do the timing belt so that is the next project for my procrastination at the moment. The steering is OK for now. It still sometimes suffers from what I feel as excessive effort in parking situations, but at least it's not cutting out like before. I imagine I will change the fluid again soon since it's only $7.50 worth of fluid - three of the small bottles. Though, the fluid I removed was still pretty clear and the inside of the pump was literally spotless.

[BB_cuda]

New guy here, i'm a mopar person so BB_cuda means big block barracuda (1967 in my case.) I have been tinkering with my 89 LXI sedan P/S system. I finally found the leak at the vehicle speed sensor. It was a 6" hose and 2 clamps that fixed it.

My point of replying is I buy 1 quart bottles of Honda specific P/S fluid at o'reilly for about $7. I had been feeding the leak for a while and that was the cheapest way i could do it. I was eating about a quart per week.

[DBMaster]

I get mine at Wal Mart for $2.47 a bottle. I can't remember the brand but it is a known name brand and is Honda specific. I've been using it for over 125,000 miles in my rebuilt rack.