Axle seals?

[BB_cuda]

I'm in the middle of a ball joint change job. I had read on here before concerning axle seals. I pulled the spindles off and am looking for the axle seals. Do they stay connected to the spindle or the outer CV joint? I want to inspect and change if needed. I also want to check the wheel bearings. I did not hear any bearing noise though so I suspect they are fine. I had read of the importance to have good axle seals or else other things go bad.

What are those things that go bad from worn out seals?

[DBMaster]

Since I very recently replaced my front wheel bearings I can help you. The only "seals" I noticed were a little bit of rubber on the outside diameter of the end of the axle that enters the steering knuckle. The knuckle itself has a metal ring on the back that just taps into the inboard side of the knuckle. It does not wear out.

The only axle seals you need to think about are the ones that seal the end of the axle that is inserted into the transaxle. If you are not pulling the axles out and they are not leaking you are fine there, too.

My bearings were actually making noise. I have nearly 350,000 miles on my Accord. You can't really tell if they are bad by visual inspection unless they are awful. My D/S bearing looked like it had been running hot and did not turn smoothly, but I had to have the knuckle removed to tell that it was grinding when the hub spun.

[BB_cuda]

Thankd DB. I was just covering my bases while i had it apart. I'm leaving the bearings alone as they are ~$78 per side to replace. My lower ball joint boots actually look pretty good making me think the joints might have been okay. Front end guy at NTB says i should replace both upper and lower ball joints. I suppose i will do the smart thing and change them all while it's apart.

[DBMaster]

To replace the upper ball joints you have to buy new control arms. Then, most likely, you'll need new bushings for them, which are sold separately. To get good stuff you're looking at close to $300 just for parts. If you go the cheap route it could be under $100, but you'll be replacing them again in two years or less. Trust me, I've been there. What's even worse is the cheap upper control arm bushings will be noisy and drive you crazy. I have pretty much found that with these cars, especially on suspension components, you have to stick with OEM brands. Moog and TRW are two I know of that are actually made by Three-Five. That's the ones that come with the car.

It's the same with bearings. Crap bearings cost $30 each on eBay. Good bearings cost $50 and up.

[BB_cuda]

I learned the difference between what people call "seals" and what is really a dust shield. On the inboard face of the spindle there is a thin piece of flimsy metal. It surronds the outer CV when its inserted into the spindle/hub assy. My car had one on and one off. This makes me think some sort of work on the hub has happened in the past. The dust shield is missing on the passenger side. I plan to reuse the driver one and purchase one. I think Moog makes one. The bearing itself is a sealed unit so sealing isn't really necessary.

Separately, i see that dust caps are sold that pop into the outside of the hub after you have installed the nut and cotter pin. I did not see these when i disassembled my front end. I know the axles have been changed once as the original owner gave me a stack of repair receipts.

Question: Do you guys mess with the outer dust cap?

[DBMaster]

These cars don't use castle nuts or caps with cotter pins on the axle ends. They use a slightly conical spindle nut that gets staked at the indentation in the end of the axle. My mechanic reuses them, but for under $3 I just go ahead and replace them.

I don't think that flimsy metal ring is going to be easy to find. When I asked about it a few months ago one of the guys posted an eBay link for somebody who was selling one. Honestly, I doubt that it will matter one way or the other if it's not there.

Here's the link to the earlier thread. The link to the eBay listing is still valid because I guess the part hadn't sold yet.

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76406

[BB_cuda]

My mistake. I knew there are no castle nuts or cotter pins. I guess i had ball joints on the brain. I'm asking about this cap that is sold by O'reilly, autozone, and Rock Auto. Should it be used to close out the axle nut area? I'm not sure if it's a OEM thing or not. If not, then i will not use.

Separately, thanks for the link to the other thread. I read through it and found the ebay link. I tried to buy two but it wouldn't let me. so, i bought one. I already have one but i thought since i was paying for shipping i would get a spare in case i tear something up in the future. Part was $4.97 +2.86 for shipping.

By the way DB, you aren't too far from where i grew up. I grew up in Arlington, TX and went to UTA. I'm now halfway between Houston and Galveston.

[DBMaster]

Interesting. I grew up in the Lewisville area and I have a finance degree from UTA. I lived in Arlington for a couple of years after I graduated.

I am not aware of any sort of cap. There is a dust cap covering the REAR hub nut. Not sure what kind of cap you're actually talking about. I think the eBay link was just a one-off. I was not able to find that part anywhere else.

[BB_cuda]

Got my M.E. degree in 1988 (showing my age now). Here is an O'reilly link for the dust cap.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search/Wheel+Dust+Cap/02985/C0337.oap?make=Honda&model=Accord&year=1989&vi=1167027

I do not see a cap shown in the exploded view you provided in #1 spot of other thread. That is an OEM figure so it doesn't appear to be a factory thing. I will drop the idea of using a cap on the front hubs.

[DBMaster]

Yeah, that photo looks exactly like the dust caps that go on the REAR hubs. You won't be needing any such part for the front.

1988!? That's funny. That's the year I graduated as well. I should have graduated in '87, but taking off a semester and changing majors added some time. I graduated HS in 1983.

I guess we're both "old guys."

[BB_cuda]

I put the upper control arm bushings back together. I used the old nuts from the old control arms. Is this a no-no? I torqued them to 40 lb-ft even though you say they will squeek at that high of a torque. Its warmer here in houston. I can always back off and retorque. I'm just wondering if the old nuts will vibrate loose. Could i use some locktite instead or getting new? I would likely use the blue type as you are never going to take red type apart without breaking parts.

[DBMaster]

I was reusing the old ones for years. You should be fine. If it makes you feel better check them once in a while and you'll see they won't move. I only replaced mine because I was buying the other parts and the nuts were really cheap. Before you reattach the upper ball joints, pivot the control arm up and down in the wheel well. If you feel any binding whatsoever you're going to hear noise.

I wouldn't mess with the loctite until you are sure whatever torque setting you are using will be OK. Honestly, I don't think you'll need it.

I found that mine actually squeaked worse when the weather got warm. Inside the car it's less of a squeak and more of a series of little popping noises whenever you go over bumps, etc. at low speeds. If you have the noises you will know what I mean.

[Dr_Snooz]

I torqued to 40 ft-lbs and used blue Loctite. It's worked great for the last couple years.

[Oldblueaccord]

I learned the difference between what people call "seals" and what is really a dust shield. On the inboard face of the spindle there is a thin piece of flimsy metal. It surronds the outer CV when its inserted into the spindle/hub assy. My car had one on and one off. This makes me think some sort of work on the hub has happened in the past. The dust shield is missing on the passenger side. I plan to reuse the driver one and purchase one. I think Moog makes one. The bearing itself is a sealed unit so sealing isn't really necessary.

Separately, i see that dust caps are sold that pop into the outside of the hub after you have installed the nut and cotter pin. I did not see these when i disassembled my front end. I know the axles have been changed once as the original owner gave me a stack of repair receipts.

Question: Do you guys mess with the outer dust cap?


In the 1988 Helmsbook p19-14 they call them a knuckle ring.

wp

[BB_cuda]

Finally got it all put back together yesterday right at dark. I drove it and some of the racket is gone but still one of the noises remains. On some bumps it doesn't make it. If i hit a bump where both left and right side hit a bump, it definately still happens.

I may look at motor mounts. Perhaps something unrelated to suspension is just loose. I changed upper control arms, upper bushings, upper ball joints. Lower bushings inboard and outboard, lower ball joint, strut rod bushings, sway bar links and sway bar mount bushings. Did the wheel bearings while spindles were off too. $550 spent and not done yet .....

Taking to front end mechanic for different view point and put up on lift

[Dr_Snooz]

I didn’t realize that you had noises. Bad upper ball joints will typically make a scrubbing, creaking or groaning noise. What is the sound you are hearing?

[DBMaster]

He just installed new Moog UCA's and lower ball joints. My money's on the UCA bushings being too tight. I still have to mess with mine sometimes - loosening them a little when the weather gets warm. You can pop the upper ball joint loose and actuate the control arms manually. If you feel any binding at all, even a little, you're most likely going to have noise.

I am literally going to say that I think this was a shitty design.