View Full Version : Calling all Californians!!!!
lostscotiaguy
02-25-2012, 12:29 PM
Please throw in your 2 cents:
I've posted on this a million times before in various threads but I wanted to get a general consensus and pick everyone's brains:
I have had enough and I'm getting rid of my carb..... Should I:
A: Just buy a newly refurbished one from importcarburetors or nationalcarburetors.
OR
B:Just buy a f***in Weber kit from ebay.
As it stands right now I have already rebuilt my present carb and tuned it EXACTLY as instructed (Minus the special tools) and It still wont run...when it WAS last running it was still problematic at best. Some of my vacuum solenoids are NOT working properly so that may be my only issue, but I think the problem is more complicated than that.
So, out of frustration I just want to buy my way past the problem. I am SOOOO tempted to get the weber (I want it like a fat dog wants bacon) , but I have visions of failing my visual test when smog comes up. Many of you have said "Oh the smog guy wont be able to tell the difference" this is true, but he will probably still look for vacuum hook-ups to my charcoal canister and other emission related pieces. I know that a weber will pass the actual dyno test, but I'm fearful of the visual.
SO, I'm asking YOU: What would you suggest? A weber or a rebuild?...and any california weber owners, what has been your smog experience? And did you take any measures to "hide" the weber? I was thinking I'd have to cut the factory airbox to make it sit on the weber, and I'd even have to try and make the vacuum lines look like they were still going to the carb. I'm just not willing to gamble on the weber if my odds of getting away with it are low, but I'm also concerned that a rebuilt keihin wont be tuned properly and I'll end up swapping an old malfunctioning carb for a NEW malfunctioning carb!
So please, any Californians, tell me what YOU'VE done with your carbs, and if you've swapped them, what were your experiences with the smog man?
PDXAccord79
02-25-2012, 05:07 PM
I'm not from Cali but I'm doing a Weber swap right now and if you remove the canister and vacuum box it really looks like it's supposed to. One hose goes to the advance on the distributor while the other goes the brake booster. Unless the guy really knows this year of car he's probably not going to notice.
Dr_Snooz
02-25-2012, 08:24 PM
You should read this (http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76568)before going further. There is a tag on your hood or air filter that lists what smog components came from the factory on the car. It will be stuff like "Catalyst," "EGR," "O2," etc. You just want to make sure that those components are installed and at least appear to be functional. The real trick will be getting it to blow clean. That comes down to tuning, which is really the same place you're at with the carb you have. The question then is: knowing that you will have to spend a lot of time tuning, do you spend a lot of money on a Weber swap or tune what you have for free? If you know that you have bad solenoids and actuators, then you're most economical bet is to fix those before going to all the trouble of a Weber swap.
For what it's worth, I got my truck through one smog before it blew up, so I can't really speak to making an aftermarket carb work over the long term. I'd say, though, that if you're having trouble keeping the car running clean, cheating smog is probably a stalling tactic at best. I will rebuild my truck engine, but it will be in a smog exempt body when it's done.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
lostscotiaguy
02-26-2012, 02:31 PM
"That comes down to tuning, which is really the same place you're at with the carb you have."
Therein lies the rub: I'm not certain that the carb I have now is tuned properly (or that I even CAN ever get it tuned properly)...and my carb doesn't even have float windows... There is just too many variables involved with the factory equipment to really pinpoint where the problem is. I SHOULD just buy a rebuilt OEM one, then at least i'll know that i only need to make sure all my vacuum solenoids,etc. are working properly. With a weber, I'll at least know how to tune it properly if needed. Either way, whether I get a rebuilt or a weber, i'm pretty sure It will pass smog (on the dyno). I was just hoping to learn whether anyone else had installed a rebuilt one or a weber, and what their experience was like.
2ndGenGuy
02-26-2012, 09:07 PM
I've had the same Weber for about 6 or 7 years now. I ran it on my 84 and then swapped it over to my 81. It's so much simpler than any of the stock stuff. I can't say I've ever had a single problem with it...
Ichiban
02-26-2012, 09:28 PM
I dropped almost 400 canadian on an autoline rebuild carb for my 22R almost 8 years ago now. Originally I tried to rebuild the one I had, but the powervalve that was the problem wasn't included in the 50 dollar rebuild kit. So in frustration I got the reman one, and it's run like shit since day one. Won't idle in the cold, accelerator pump piled up and died, runs way rich at idle despite millions of attempts at adjustment, and numerous issues with floats sticking shut. I'd do the weber.
Surprised that they smog a 31+ year old vehicle?
lostscotiaguy
02-28-2012, 02:36 PM
I dropped almost 400 canadian on an autoline rebuild carb for my 22R almost 8 years ago now.........
Surprised that they smog a 31+ year old vehicle?
Yeah, I can't speak to the quality of the rebuild you got from Autoline...sounds like a bum deal! There's really only 2 sources I know of for my needs and both of them seem reputable enough: Guaranteedcarburetors and importcarburetorsdotcom. They both have good customer feedback and both look like they "know what they're doing" but I'm still hesitant since the 3 barrel Keihin seems pretty different than every other carb out there!
SO, I'm not so certain they'll send it to me adjusted properly or even working properly, and considering that i'm lacking the tools to do REAL FINE tuning I'm just nervous about the whole prospect.
As for the smog testing of a 31 y.o. car? Don't get me started! I grew up in Canada, and I can remember getting safety inspections...you know, testing a car to make sure it's SAFE to be on the road? LOL
:hmph:
They don't have that here...your car can be a f***in deathtrap, but as long as it's running clean it's all good. The thing is the rule USED to be anything 25 or older was exempt...then right before my cars 25 year "birthday" they changed it to anything pre-1975.
:hmph::hmph:
I guess the thing is that I see it more as a punishment for "being poor". It's also absurd that even if my car blows clean it has to pass the visual inspection, to ensure that every non-oem component has a special Executive Order #, proving that the manufacturer bribed/paid the Cali. Air Resources Board to approve it. The silliest part of the whole thing is the fact that even if I went out and bought a f***in Prius, there would be more pollution created by the manufacturing of that car than my car probably put out in an entire lifetime. I mean when you really look at everything that goes into the manufacturing of a new car...all the way from the mining of the metal to the shipping of the cars, the amount of waste and pollution is staggering.
:rant::rant::rant::rant::rant::rant:
I'm sorry to rant!!!!! I just get carried away, and I feel like I'm being punished for not being wealthy enough (or willing) to buy a new car.
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! And thanks for your smog input Dr. Snooz! I know you've responded to my (repeated) smog questions countless times and I DO appreciate it, even if I tend to forget the advice after a while...what can I say, I'm a flake!
I think my final decision is this: I AM going to get the weber... I AM going to try and mock up a spare airbox in order to run in "stealth weber" mode, and make it appear all my vacuum lines are hooked up. BUT.... I AM also going to keep my original carb, and try and make sure that all my "magic black boxes" function properly. Some of my solenoids are burnt out, but a great friend is sending me his old ones, so hopefully I can scavenge what I need off them. If worst comes to worst I'll have 2 options: See the "smog referee" and get an independent appraisal, or I can try and find an "Understanding" wink wink smog guy who'll cut me a little slack on the visual.
ghettogeddy
02-28-2012, 04:19 PM
how much would you say want to drive the car? if not a lot then just go get historic plates and do the swap
1GCustomAccord
02-29-2012, 09:12 AM
Wink wink= 20$ :naughty:
lostscotiaguy
03-03-2012, 01:58 AM
1gcustom = LOL Probably MORE than $20 but I don't even know how I'd breach the subject!
Dr Snooz = It's funny, I checked the sticker and all it said was OC and EGR....so basically my Catalytic converter (Which is RELATIVELY new) and tested SUPER LOW on my last test... and my EGR which IS hooked up.
I do intend to see if I can still incorporate the "15mph then it comes on" solenoid which opens the egr at speed.
I know a lot of people think the egr robs you of performance, and in some high performance applications it may, but from what i know in a car like this you're WAY better off having it working, despite what seems to be a common practice amongst car owners of just blocking it off.
Egr working = lower combustion chamber temps and better fuel mileage (less "room" for fresh fuel and air mixture going into CC). From what I hear these old Honda blocks don't like to run hot... I haven't blown a head gasket yet and I'd like to keep it that way! Anyway, i'm rambling as always...
My intention is to actually get my important smog stuff working properly, and integrated into the new weber. I DID finally order it tonight (I should have done it years ago). Now my only fear is that even if I pass visual inspection initially, the smog guy will notice the "Octopus diagram" under my hood which shows all my vacuum hoses. I really don't want to remove it!!! I'm being ridiculously anal (I know) but my car has so many GOOD oem things on it it's ridiculous...I'm serious, all my underhood stickers look brand new! (plus you should see under the car...NO RUST) I'll post a few pics tomorrow...you guys are gonna hate me! ;-)
I just can't wait to have her run properly for once!!! It's been years since I been able to "just drive her" without her bein all tempermental and "tricky" to drive.
I DO have to remember to take a crapload of "before" pics...if I ever have to put that factory rat's nest back together and back in it I'm gonna cry!
lostscotiaguy
03-03-2012, 03:49 PM
oh, and Ghetto Geddy.... Historic plates?? I gotta go do a little research now... I normally use the car as a daily driver (but on VERY short trips...maybe 5-10 miles a day) thanks for the heads-up, now I'm gonna go see what the qualifications/rules are.
Oh, and here's some pics....
Pic 1 = Why I love California.... All original :rockon:
pic 2 = My only rust spot (besides my battery tray)
pic 3 = Why I'd like to keep my stickers....
pic 4 = My smog info...
pic 5 = Why I hate California. :thumbdn:
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/5849/dsc00057ef.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/dsc00057ef.jpg/)
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7015/dsc00056ij.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/252/dsc00056ij.jpg/)
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/4261/dsc00054fn.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/dsc00054fn.jpg/)
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/546/dsc00047yr.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/688/dsc00047yr.jpg/)
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/7020/dsc00042ku.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/dsc00042ku.jpg/)
lostscotiaguy
03-03-2012, 04:46 PM
Update: Checked the historic plates requirements....
"Vehicle may only be driven in historical exhibitions, parades or historic vehicle club activities".
I can picture getting pulled over by the cops while going to visit a friend: "Yeah officer...I was...ummmm....on my way to a....uh...parade."
:banghead:
It was worth a shot though! Thanks for the idea ghetto!
obdriver6
03-03-2012, 09:51 PM
Looks good but you have fix that rust problem before it get bigger. The sticker do look new. You could cover them?
MessyHonda
03-04-2012, 02:44 AM
on my dx we tried 3 carbs. the first one we tried to rebuild the original, 2nd one we got from the jy and the 3rd one was from a crashed car in the jy that we rebuilt and no carb ran right in the winter but in the summer i got 32mpg running a bit rich. I always wanted to do a weber but then my motor took a dump.
you think you have it hard? I have a integra engine in my 3gee. the smog guy was a bit confused and he was going to charge me 120 bucks to do it and at the last min he backed out of it even tho I had cash in hand. I found another smog guy, all i had to do is bring my DMV papers down now i passed and im good for 2 years :)
lostscotiaguy
03-04-2012, 11:44 AM
"you think you have it hard?"
:rofl:
Well considering that in 10 years my car has been working/legal for about 4 of them...I've rebuilt 2 carbs, paid a "top notch" smog mechanic to fix it to no avail, lent it to the Smog instructor at a local technical college who STILL barely got it to pass plus I've failed more smog tests than I can remember, and I've had to pay probably over a $1000 in penalty fees from the resulting lapse in registration due to those failures. Add to that the fact that even when I DID finally get it "running clean" for my last smog my carb still acted really poorly and I was unable to just "drive normally", I had to watch out for flat spots under acceleration, automatic over-revving during upshifts, and a propensity to bog down and almost stall at stoplights, or just bog down at random while driving. Yeah... I'd say it was pretty frustrating! LOL
I don't know if the $120 was to "grease the wheels" but if it was....how did you breach the subject with the guy? Everytime I hear of a "hook-up" connection through a friend, the guy ends up busted because he goes a little crazy and passes too many ricers. I think I could maybe get someone to be lax on the visual if it at least passed on the Dyno.... Anyway, i don't know if you were just payin him to "look the other way" or payin him to put up with the engine swap? As long as the engine is newer than the car, and the smog equipment works, you should have just been able to go to the smog ref. instead of a normal shop.... I guess I'm just confused about what you did?....
MessyHonda
03-05-2012, 01:35 AM
Im saying that I believe that your car can pass inspection with a weber. All im trying to say if you are going to replace anything you should always replace it with something newer or better. I did a swap on my car because i wanted the reliability of a new engine and still keep the car running because lots of parts for our cars are being discontinued. I have my car tuned for the best efficiency. We tuned it on a wide band so its the cleanest car. my carb would run rich all the time and it had that burning egg smell from the cat. My axle seal was busted so i could not take it to the ref. but i will since its a stock engine.
lostscotiaguy
03-19-2012, 01:29 PM
Imagine my surprise to hear about this! keeping my fingers crossed....please spread the word: http://echo.bluehornet.com/hostedemail/email.htm?CID=2293972877&ch=344D8E279AF43038F5ABAEC92BE31F77&h=9000054d1ae9a2b9b478d0b6e1fe9ab8&ei=DkgIVTNTN
Dr_Snooz
03-19-2012, 05:50 PM
Oh! That would be a wonderful help! Let's hope it passes.
I think you're on the right track with the Weber swap. You have rebuilt a carb before, so I don't think you'll have a lot of trouble tuning the Weber. I spent a lot of time tuning my Edelbrock. It took time to figure out what needed to be tweaked, but the adjustments themselves were easy to do. You'll probably find the Weber to be similar and won't regret the change.
As for the smog check, just request a "pre-test" when you take it in. If you fail on a pre-test, it won't be reported to the state. You can take it home and hide what they find, then take it back until it clears. You can also shop around till you find a shop that doesn't do a real thorough visual. My guess is that most shops won't go combing through your engine bay looking for anomalies. As long as it's not full of shiny purple, go-fast bits, you'll be fine.
I'm speaking theoretically, of course. You should always obey all relevant smog laws.
ecogabriel
03-19-2012, 06:19 PM
I'm speaking theoretically, of course. You should always obey all relevant smog laws.
:rockon:
I have heard of people with carbed cars and their tribulations with passing smog, but nothing like this.
It seems the problem rests that the parts for those carbs are no longer available, and the rebuilts may not be good either. hope the weber swap works, or the legislation changes.
You talked about dead solenoids... do you have a picture of those? Because 3Gs and 2G preludes have several solenoids inside their black boxes. If they are similar or compatible, it should not be that hard to get working ones.
Go to the jy with a multimeter and check continuity between the terminals. If there is continuity, they work.
lostscotiaguy
03-29-2012, 12:08 PM
i'm speaking theoretically, of course. You should always obey all relevant smog laws.
of couuurrrse! ;-)
lostscotiaguy
03-29-2012, 12:23 PM
Ecogabriel: Re: Solenoids... Thankfully one of the coolest/kindest people I've ever known (a 1g Prelude owner on the east coast) actually sent me his old black boxes to salvage solenoids from. He paid shipping and everything, all for "The Cause". When I get the time I'm going to go through and rebuild all my OE stuff just in case I need to throw it back in. I will say one thing though.... I'll hate to do it if I have to.
I've been going through and cleaning 30 years of grime out of my engine bay and doing a "pseudo wire tuck". Everything is so much better looking and accessible now! I know aesthetics are ultimately pointless, but I just like how much "cooler" everything looks! Plus the sound of the new weber is just pure awesome... the coolest 70 Hp I've ever heard! LOL :rockon:
I was also quite happy to see that not only is my manifold completely rust free and still fairly "shiny" but underneath all the gunk in my engine bay my paint is still perfect. Living in Cali really IS a double edged sword. I'm presently having "technical" difficulties: I lost the f***in USB cord to my camera!!! :confused: But when I get a chance i'll post some before and after pics.
Dr_Snooz
04-01-2012, 01:18 PM
:rockon:
I have heard of people with carbed cars and their tribulations with passing smog, but nothing like this.
I think CARB is actively trying to remove old cars from the road. They say they are doing it for the environment, but I suspect it's to help out the automakers. CARB obviously doesn't give two farts about the environment. The farmers can spray as much of their toxic poison as they want across my windshield and burn as much of their orchard clippings as they can put in a pile. The automakers somehow finagle a free pass on CO2 emissions and on gas mileage standards. All of these things are nice and legal but I can't put a universal fit cat on my 30 year old econobox? Please. If, god forbid, I fail smog, then I'm usually forced to choose between thousands of dollars in repairs or junking the car. It's starting to smell awfully like the back end of a bull around here.
ecogabriel
04-01-2012, 02:15 PM
I think CARB is actively trying to remove old cars from the road. They say they are doing it for the environment, but I suspect it's to help out the automakers. CARB obviously doesn't give two farts about the environment. The farmers can spray as much of their toxic poison as they want across my windshield and burn as much of their orchard clippings as they can put in a pile. The automakers somehow finagle a free pass on CO2 emissions and on gas mileage standards. All of these things are nice and legal but I can't put a universal fit cat on my 30 year old econobox? Please. If, god forbid, I fail smog, then I'm usually forced to choose between thousands of dollars in repairs or junking the car. It's starting to smell awfully like the back end of a bull around here.
I wonder what percentage of cars are 20+ years old to keep them subject to smog and stringent visual inspections; who cares if the carburetor you have is not OE but the tailpipe emissions are within the range of the original car? :rant:
Also, I do not get why cat converters that the manufacturers claim are 50-state compliant CANNOT be shipped to CA. Grill the manufacturer if the parts they produce do not meet standards, not the poor idiot trying to get its car running in compliance. :rant:
lostscotiaguy
04-16-2012, 01:44 PM
Awesome.... you summed it up nicely Snooz! I'm also bothered by the fact that when you consider all the pollution generated by the manufacturing of a new "CLEAN" car (Everything from the pollution created mining the metals, transporting/processing the raw materials, and the finished product etc...) there's no way my car even comes close to that level of pollution. I could probably run without a cat and STILL pollute less overall.
Anyhow, on a personal note I wont have to smog till October (still not looking forward to it) but in the meantime I'm still lovin the crap outta my Weber. Got my baby all shined up, gave her the first bath she's had in ages, and I've got her back on the road, just in time for some gorgeous weather. it's gonna be a good summer, and I'm keepin my fingers crossed for S.B. 1224!
lostscotiaguy
04-16-2012, 02:02 PM
Also, I do not get why cat converters that the manufacturers claim are 50-state compliant CANNOT be shipped to CA. Grill the manufacturer if the parts they produce do not meet standards, not the poor idiot trying to get its car running in compliance. :rant:
Amen! Yeah, the stupid part is I have an "Illegal cat" that was "stealthily" given to me by a guy at a muffler shop (I was sent by a guy at a parts store). I had gone to numerous locations to buy direct fit replacements, none of which actually fit. I wasn't about to pay the Honda dealership 700 f***in dollars for one. So, one parts guy, after sharing/witnessing my frustration, sent me to see his buddy, who "hooked me up" with a magnaflow that only cost 60 bucks!!! It was brand new, but I needed to cut and weld the flanges on to fit it.
Since then, not one smog guy has said anything about it, and when I HAVE passed smog, my levels were almost non-existent (seriously, I tested at 0 ppm on HCs and like 5-10 on CO), so I know it works quite well. It all comes down to the manufacturer not willing to bribe/pay to get the "CARB APPROVED" number. That's half the reason I'm so pissed about my weber. I looked up the weber on the official CARB website, and it's CARB approved for everything from almost any Datsun ever made to a f***in Opel Manta, and you know how common THOSE are... :facepalm:
And yet no Honda's. :madflip:
Dr_Snooz
04-16-2012, 02:39 PM
I'm keepin my fingers crossed for S.B. 1224!
Uh...yeah...about that.
http://legiscan.com/gaits/view/405453
lostscotiaguy
05-10-2012, 12:28 AM
Wow....do I feel stupid....I'm SO confused!
-Set, second hearing. Failed passage in Committee.
Failed what?
-Reconsideration granted
Oh, so they're gonna revote on it?
-(Y: 9 N: 0 NV: 0) [PASS]
9 yes votes! Is that a YES it passed? Or yes they'll reconsider it?
:confused:
Suddenly I feel like a golden retriever flying an airplane!
I'm 37, and a fairly politicaly "aware" guy, I'm embarassed that I can't decipher it.
If it DID pass I'm still not in the clear yet.... I don't know if it's 1981 inclusive or exclusive. Either way they'll never stop me!!! LOL That weber is SIPPIN the gas....driven it on and off for a month or so and only put in like 20 bucks!. My prelude is GUZZLING though, I think it's time for a new O2 sensor and some new injectors.
lostscotiaguy
05-10-2012, 12:44 AM
Wow
lostscotiaguy
05-10-2012, 12:54 AM
I know it's bland but I figured I'd post it since it's on topic...
Part 1- http://youtu.be/9602bTWmG1k
Part 2- http://youtu.be/LvoNz0NFygM
Part 3- http://youtu.be/TJi9ocwNLs0
Hopefully I'm allowed to post these... I never know about "Link Etiquette" or rules...seems all sites vary on what they permit.
Honestly though, this whole thing just pisses me off. "Oh boo hoo air pollution". I'm very much against pollution, but the tiny number of pre-81 cars on the road isn't going to make one f****in bit of difference when compared to pollution being caused by industry. It's like standing next to a garbage incinerator and then asking people not to smoke cause it might hurt your lungs. Old cars are being used as straw men and scapegoats in this whole argument.
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