Advice: Replace A/C vs buying another honda?

[OptimusPrimeSr]

I currently drive an 87' LX with 189k miles on it. The only major thing wrong with the car is the AC stopped working last August...which wasn't such a big deal then because the temperature was dropping (heat still works btw). But now that temps are getting back into the 80s (I live in Georgia) I need some relief from the heat.

So I'm trying to decide if I should buy another car or have the AC fixed. Currently I'm leaning towards a new car...and I think the numbers support it.

estimates...
- life of current car 2-3 years (driving 13k miles each year)
- A/C repair cost $1k
- craigslist value of current car $1k
- cost of new car $4k-$5k (accord/civic with 100k-150k mileage)
- life of new car 7-8 years

[Dr_Snooz]

I have found that buying used cars always entails a big outlay of cash beyond the initial purchase price. You get to fix all the stuff the previous owner forgot to tell you about and there are always little extras you find you need. I don't think I've bought a car that I didn't do a major service (~$800) on immediately after purchasing it. In the $4-5k range, the chances are pretty good that you'll shell out well over the $1k you're hoping to save just getting the "new" car up to snuff. If your current car is otherwise in good shape, consider repairing it. Anyway, the newer Hondas are sloppy and boring and get pretty rotten mileage too.

As far as numbers go, it is always cheaper to fix what you have than to buy something else, barring outlier events like driving it off a pier into a deep water harbor and leaving it there for 6 months, burning it to the ground, etc. The "life" of a car is for as long as you want to keep it really.

[2drSE-i]

Yeah I'm not sure where you got the 2-3 year figure from your car. Take care of it, and it will outlast that by far.

[charliekuney]

Yeah I'm not sure where you got the 2-3 year figure from your car. Take care of it, and it will outlast that by far.

x2

[OptimusPrimeSr]

I have found that buying used cars always entails a big outlay of cash beyond the initial purchase price. You get to fix all the stuff the previous owner forgot to tell you about and there are always little extras you find you need.

this is a great point that I completely neglected. ty.


Yeah I'm not sure where you got the 2-3 year figure from your car. Take care of it, and it will outlast that by far.

somewhat of a W-A-Guess. but here's what's keeping me from saying 5+ years, 280k miles...
- pretty much any wreck will total it...my fault or not...if the damage is something other than paint and dented panels and has to be fixed to drive the car, the insurance payout leaves you hanging. this happened to my first honda (91 accord) a few years ago.
- its 25 yr old car, more stuff will have to be replaced...motor mounts, suspension, wheel or axle problems and I'm facing another tough decision...because I don't have the time to work on it myself.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

also, I'm worried about the AC repair. i've read horror stories of people shelling out 400-1k to have the AC "fixed" only for it to "break" again in 6-12 months.


and if I'm really honest, I kinda like the idea of a newer car. something with a radio and speakers :-)

[2drSE-i]

If you live in OK I could have your A/C fixed and done for no more than 500 bucks. Barring any problems with the evaporator and condenser.

[charliekuney]

- pretty much any wreck will total it...my fault or not...if the damage is something other than paint and dented panels and has to be fixed to drive the car, the insurance payout leaves you hanging. this happened to my first honda (91 accord) a few years ago.

You can't base your experience of an entire manufacturer based off of one car you owned. From what I've seen and experienced, CA5/6's are much more reliable and less problematic than the CB7's. You see junked CB7's on Craigslist all the time asking for much more than their worth with more problems than one would ever know, but seeing a CA5/6 on Craigslist that "doesn't start when it's cold" or "has a fluctuating idle" is just as common, yet an easier fix.


- its 25 yr old car, more stuff will have to be replaced...motor mounts, suspension, wheel or axle problems and I'm facing another tough decision...because I don't have the time to work on it myself.

Indeed, these cars are now 23-27 years old...but will buying a 1997 Accord automatically mean having less to fix? No, because newer cars (including Hondas) aren't the type that you can drive forever while practically just changing the oil like you can in these cars. You also have to consider that newer cars are more expensive to fix, and probably a lot more difficult. I have yet to find another generation of another car that has so many easy-to-fix problems as the 1986-1989 Accord. I swear, looking at the ones I see in junkyards (most of which aren't wrecked), I could probably diagnose the problem just by searching these forums for similar problems.


also, I'm worried about the AC repair. i've read horror stories of people shelling out 400-1k to have the AC "fixed" only for it to "break" again in 6-12 months.

Have you figured out what exactly is wrong with the air conditioning? Maybe it needs new fluids? Maybe the belt went out and is gone altogether? Hell, it might even just need to be recharged with costs like $10 to do yourself.


and if I'm really honest, I kinda like the idea of a newer car. something with a radio and speakers :-)

Uh, I paid $30 for my radio and I got a set of brand new speakers for free. If that's all that you're worried about you shouldn't be driving at all. Ride the bus, wear a t-shirt and bring a sweater if it gets too cold, and use your iPod. Problems solved.

Being too lazy to find a cheap place to fix your air conditioning (whatever the problem may be) and being to cheap to put in a decent system should NOT be the reasons to get a new vehicle. Maybe once your timing belt disintegrates and your valves bend and your headgasket blows...

[nswst8]

Re: A/C technical assistance needed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basic Charging Procedures
REFRIGERANT CHARGING PROCEDURE IN AUTOMOTIVE A/C SYSTEMS

We recommend reading this procedure completely before charging. You may need information before charging you want to keep handy. Have this procedure with you while charging. Although it can be done by a single person, we recommend having a helper around.

This procedure outlines the steps to perform a complete charge. These steps are not to be used to refill or make partial charges. Toping off requires system parameters monitoring and knowledge, specially in R134a-based system. Excessive gas will harm your system and will keep it from cooling properly. MORE REFRIGERANT DOES NOT MEAN COLDER TEMPERATURES

CHARGING IN GAS OR LIQUID - Please read step 10

Do not use the sightglass (if so equipped) in R134a-based systems as if were R-12 based.

SPECIAL EQUIPMENT REQUIRED

1) Vacuum pump

2) Gauges (R12 or R134a)

3) Service port adapter (as required in most R12-based systems) R134a systems do not require adapters other than the couplers in your gauges in the majority of applications

4) Refrigerant gas (R12 or R134a)

5) Optional: 2-3 ounces of specified oil.

**************

1. Make sure what is the required amount of gas. From factory, all systems have a decal under the hood that give the data. If the decal is missing or you are not sure, please specify make, model, and the type of refrigerant used and whether your system is a factory or an after market unit here. It is very important to know if your system has oil. Oil starvation is the main reason of compressor failure. Oil can be added to the system in two ways: with oil injectors or through the low side port under vacuum. The procedure to add oil through vacuum is described here. Some refrigerant charge and other useful specifications are provided here.

2. Connect both blue and red gauge hoses to the system's service ports. The discharge port (red hose) is located somewhere between the compressor and expansion device, either before the condenser or after it. In R134a systems, the port is the thicker of both, while in R12 systems is the thinner one. In some aftermarket systems, the port is located in the back of the compressor. If your ports are located in the compressor, the low side is marked by an "S" and the high side by an "H". Port caps have an "L" for low or "H" for high.

3. Open both gauge valves. Connect the common hose (yellow one) to the vacuum pump. Make sure both gauge needles are zeroed down. Needle is adjusted by turning a fine screw inside the dial. You must remove the plastic lens to do this.

4. Turn the pump on. You'll notice that both gauge readings begin to drop. The blue gauge's needle will even dip into negative values. The desired low side reading should be less than -25, while the high side will remain at 0.

5. After approximately 5 minutes, close both gauge valves. Turn the pump off, and observe the needles. Any movement will indicate vacuum loss. The faster the movement, the greater the loss. If after two minutes you don't see any needle movement, open both valves, turn the pump on, and continue vacuum for not less than 30 minutes. Close both valves then turn the pump off.

6. Get ready to charge. Have the necessary refrigerant amount handy. Cans make charging easier and more precise unless you have a charging cylinder or a precision scale.

7. Disconnect the yellow hose from the vacuum pump and connect it to the can tap or charging cylinder valve. You can charge in two ways: liquid (can upside down) or gas. Liquid charging is a lot faster but not recommended unless you extreme care or have experience. Traditional (gas) charging is slower but safer.

8. Once you've decided, and with the can or container connected, unscrew the top yellow hose connection (at the gauges) allowing refrigerant to escape for a couple of seconds. This will purge the air out of the hoses so you make sure that all you dispense is refrigerant. You can do this venting in liquid form so you can see when a fine, steady stream of refrigerant escapes indicating that all the air is gone from the hose. Don't breathe refrigerant and don't charge in a flammable environment.

9. "Flood" the system with liquid refrigerant (can upside down) by opening the red valve (high side) until it won't take anymore. Close the red valve. Jump the low pressure cycling switch (if so equipped). If you don't know what this is or where it is, ask for help here.

10. Turn the engine on. Turn the A/C into MAX on its third or higher blower speed. You'll note that both gauge readings are now positive. The red gauge should read between 100 and 150, while the blue gauge between 5 and 15. If you are charging with cans, don't forget to purge air out the hose after hooking a new can as described in step 8 above. Now, charge will continue through the low (blue) side (see note below) . If you haven't jumpered any switch (you don't have to), you'll notice the compressor cycling frequently on and off. That is normal. The cycling will disappear as you dispense more refrigerant. The only disadvantage of frequent compressor cycling is that charge will take longer. Needles will move up and down with every cycle. This is normal. Do not jump any switch unless you are absolutely certain!.

WARNING: DANGER

NEVER OPEN THE RED VALVE WHILE CHARGING. The red valve is to be opened only during pre-charge, vacuum, or when a system is evacuated. Its function is keeping an eye on the high side only. It must be closed at all times. If you have any doubts, wait until you receive information. Severe injury or death may occur. Remember: ALWAYS wear safety goggles. NEVER charge your system in a closed environment.

GAS OR LIQUID CHARGING?

There are two ways to charge: gas (can or cylinder up), or liquid (can or cylinder upside down). A compressor is designed to compress gas. Direct liquid charge will harm the compressor if suction pressure is not controlled. Liquid charging is faster, yet is riskier. Liquid charging should be made by professionals or under supervision. Liquid charging can be done if the suction port is away from the compressor (some compressors have the suction valve in its body).

Liquid charging can be done never exceeding a 50 PSI suction pressure. If you can't control it, charge in gas form. In cooler weather, cans may freeze. You may immerse them in water and shake them while charging.

11. Once about 2/3 of the charge has been dispensed into the system, spray water in the condenser to optimize heat exchange and speed the process. When you get the condenser wet, vent temperature is likely to raise. This is normal. You'll also note pressure drop in both gauges.

12. Once the specified amount has been dispensed, close the blue valve. Let the system run for a minute. Turn the A/C off and then the engine. Wait another minute and disconnect the couplers from the service ports. Disconnect the low side first. If you jumpered a switch, reconnect it too.

Optimum cooling performance is attained after 10 minutes of operation. Our own acceptance criteria is at least 50°F in the center vent to the driver side at idle after 10 minutes or less. Remember: cooling increases while the vehicle is in motion.

VERY IMPORTANT

Due to the physical properties and chemical composition, R134a and R12 charging amounts are different. Never, if you are retrofitting, charge the same or specified amount of R12 with R134a. If in doubt, please e-mail us here. Do not use this procedure if you are using any other refrigerant. This is just for R12 or R134a. Although procedures and parameters may be similar, we do not use nor recommend alternative refrigerants.

HOW TO DETERMINE OPERATING PRESSURES

Every vehicle has its own operation parameters specification. Depending on whether or not the vehicle has a factory or an after market system, and whether it was retrofitted or is still original, among others. There is no established calculation to determine the exact operating pressures.

The low pressure (blue gauge) should be 35 or less at idle, regardless of the type of gas. Only if you're running a dual system, the low pressure may be between 45 and 50 at idle.

The high pressure, for starters, is directly related to ambient temperature: the higher the temperature, the higher the higher the pressure.

Bear in mind that dispensing a complete charge without lowering the pressures with water will result in higher readings. This is normal, and that is why you should spray water in the condenser at 2/3rds of the charge or once you have completed it. You'll note an immediate pressure drop when you spray water in the condenser.

To obtain a ballpark high side value, multiply ambient temperature by 2.2 if you have an R12 system. If you have a factory R134a system, use 2.3. To convert °C to °F, use this formula: °C X 1.8 + 32.

Remember: this is only a ballpark. If in doubt, we have factory charts to help you determine the correct pressures. Please have your vehicle's make, model, refrigerant type, and year and click here.

Factors like a an obstructed or very dirty radiator and condenser, weak or inoperative fan clutch, weak or inoperative radiator fan(s), either electric or mechanical, will make pressures go up and impair cooling, even in mild days.

[nswst8]

These systems are simple to work on. Take the EPA609 test online for $25 (I'm not an A/C technician) it's an open book test and buy R12 online thru ebay I have like 50 lbs of this stuff it's like gold it just gets more value as time goes by.

If you have the keihin compressor swap it for the denso, get the mounting brackets from your local junkyard. Replace all o-rings and the receiver drier vacuum and charge it.

[2oodoor]

That $4-5K range is a dangerous place in the used car market so unless you have most of that without financing it is worth a little bit of study.
Also, you should be looking at 2002 or newer in that price range to be in a position to reclaim any equitable value in case something does go wrong.

Just my opinion..

[Dr_Snooz]

and if I'm really honest, I kinda like the idea of a newer car. something with a radio and speakers :-)

I think this is your answer.

[kentwat]

I fixed my ac problem with a $6 pressure valve from pullapart and 2 cans of Freeze 12. But it sounds like you really just want a different ride. I bought mine with 255k and it now has 314k. It still uses no oil on 3000 mile oil changes and pulls down 30mpg. Stereos are cheap if you just want tunes. Just my .02 Kent

edit: You can go to more than one place for estimates also.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

That $4-5K range is a dangerous place in the used car market

can you elaborate? fwiw, i'd be paying cash

[OptimusPrimeSr]

fwiw, I am going to have a local AC shop diagnose it this weekend. I'll update once I have the quote and we can decide from there.

thanks for the input!

[OptimusPrimeSr]

I think this is your answer.

sometimes it is. and I hate that. I've always prided myself on driving junk.

[Turdsofwisdom]

Both of my vehicles are of legal voting age, and I wouldn't call either of them junk.

[2oodoor]

can you elaborate? fwiw, i'd be paying cash

Cash in hand? Well you're in a good position then to buy at "wholesale" and get the most vehicle for your money. For 4-5K you can probably get into a nice 2005 an up at least.

What I mean by dangerous is that price range where dealers sell 1997 to 2002 models that are meant for the not so car or money smart.

Also, if someone financed at that range and after 30 days the transmission goes, overheating issues start or the AC, something like a 1K or better repair, they are stuck with a car payment plus repair costs. A lot of folks would be stuck with a payment and a broken ride... those wind up in repo and sometimes back at the same lot for sale.

An ideal source would be a private party who wants to get a little more than a dealer trade in when they upgraded. Divorce or Hardship sales are more common now days as well.

Watch out for CL flippers too. I wouldn't say don't buy a flipped car but like anything else it depends on the situation.
Ask questions and analyze the seller by "listening" close for contradictions, there may be something in conversations about the car that is not quite streight.

[kentwat]

If I buy on CL is make them let it sit there and idle for 15 minutes to prove it runs without issue. If they aren't willing then I just say ok, thanks, bye.

[ecogabriel]

I fixed the A/C in my Civic for $6. The two port shrader valves were shot and were leaking refrigerant. I had a couple of cans of R-12 around the home. It does not freeze my b... as the 3G because the evaporator has a jungle inside. Otherwise, it works perfect.

I do not share the "logical" conclusion that because a car repair is more than the car is worth the car is not worth fixing.
That WORKS for those who SELL you the FINANCING of another car, but not for your wallet. And a 5-6 K car may still command repairs of 1K and above.

Easy way to go. Car payments may go about $200/mo. In two years that should net
$4.8K. If your car's repairs are, say $2K but you may expect it to last another 2 years, it is still worth fixing (and I would not be fattening the money crooks but MY wallet)

If your car is otherwise in good shape -body and drivetrain - it is worth keeping in my book. Suspension, tires, exhaust, and other items are regular maintenance, and doable by the average joe/jane who wants to get dirty and learn.



http://money.msn.com/car-buying/make-your-car-last-250000-miles-weston.aspx?page=2

[DBMaster]

I think the discussion of "use value" came up a few years ago when I spent nearly $3,000 to replace my automatic with a reman from Howard Engineering. I spent about $1,000 in 1999 to put in a Honda kit to replace the Keihin with a Denso compressor. I replaced the Denso in 2010 with another new Denso. They last about ten years or so, it seems. Could be that it is so warm here all the time that my compressor really gets a workout. Still, all worth it to me. The car is clean, everything works. It also lacks two features of a newer car - payments and high insurance costs. I'll replace it one of these days, but I still like it. It's transportation and reliable. How much is THAT worth at the end of the day?

[2drSE-i]

I think the discussion of "use value" came up a few years ago when I spent nearly $3,000 to replace my automatic with a reman from Howard Engineering. I spent about $1,000 in 1999 to put in a Honda kit to replace the Keihin with a Denso compressor. I replaced the Denso in 2010 with another new Denso. They last about ten years or so, it seems. Could be that it is so warm here all the time that my compressor really gets a workout. Still, all worth it to me. The car is clean, everything works. It also lacks two features of a newer car - payments and high insurance costs. I'll replace it one of these days, but I still like it. It's transportation and reliable. How much is THAT worth at the end of the day?

Figure even a LOW cost car at $200 a month, +$100 a month for full coverage.

That's $3600 a year. Sure, you may have to fix it more often, but your still saving a TON of money.

[Dr_Snooz]

I always let the car tell me what it's been through. It can be hard to see through a good detail job, but lots of oil in the engine compartment (look under the car), nasty dirt ground into seams in the passenger area and random bangs in the bodywork generally send me running.

[OptimusPrimeSr]

Cash in hand? Well you're in a good position then to buy at "wholesale" and get the most vehicle for your money. For 4-5K you can probably get into a nice 2005 an up at least.

what do you mean, "wholesale".
I typically look on craigslist for private party...although my last two hondas have been purchased from a friend of the family who used to run a honda/acura repair shop up in NC. Should I be looking elsewhere? Autotrader seems to be riddled with mom/pop-dealers.

[2oodoor]

what do you mean, "wholesale".
I typically look on craigslist for private party...although my last two hondas have been purchased from a friend of the family who used to run a honda/acura repair shop up in NC. Should I be looking elsewhere? Autotrader seems to be riddled with mom/pop-dealers.

In short, private party seller or auction, not retail or KBB bs. On that topic, I find that edmunds dot com is much more realistic for stating values, at least in this area anyway.

[ecogabriel]

In short, private party seller or auction, not retail or KBB bs. On that topic, I find that edmunds dot com is much more realistic for stating values, at least in this area anyway.

KBB seems grossly overpriced, Edmunds seems just right

[ecogabriel]

this is a great point that I completely neglected. ty.

somewhat of a W-A-Guess. but here's what's keeping me from saying 5+ years, 280k miles...
- pretty much any wreck will total it...my fault or not...if the damage is something other than paint and dented panels and has to be fixed to drive the car, the insurance payout leaves you hanging. this happened to my first honda (91 accord) a few years ago.
- its 25 yr old car, more stuff will have to be replaced...motor mounts, suspension, wheel or axle problems and I'm facing another tough decision...because I don't have the time to work on it myself.

True, any wreck would mean totalling, but not every wreck would actually DESTROY the car. If it were for that, my Civic would have been a goner 3 years ago when my wife was rear-ended. I got as much money from the insurance as I could manage, and fixed it - not as well as I would have liked it but good enough for the trunk to close right. Car still running beautifully, getting close to 40mpg highway.

Well maintained, those cars are close to indestructible except for the occasional idiot in your way, or the occasional idiot behind the wheel driving it to the ground.

Want to know how well the engine is? Perform an OIL analysis,

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/?gclid=CPKCnN3y-K4CFc-a7QodyzUt0Q

[MessyHonda]

keep the car you dont have to pay.