View Full Version : Full A/C rebuild
Legend_master
05-10-2012, 02:12 PM
Well I have finally decided to do A/C in the hatch. To prevent any contamination of the system, and ensure it blows as cold as possible I will be replacing everything. So far I have installed a new evaperator core, compressor, a condensor, and a new dryer. It looks like i will have to have a custom hose made due to the PRI transmission mount.
DBMaster
05-10-2012, 02:48 PM
If you are going to go with a different refrigerant than R-12 I strongly recommend you replace the original serpentine flow condenser with a parallel flow condenser. Price is about the same and they make them for our cars. It has effectively higher surface area for better performance from R134a or one of the R-12 substitute refrigerants.
I am in the HVAC business and have researched this topic over the years as well.
For example purposes only...
http://www.discountautoradiator.com/shop/?N=0&uts=true&Ntt=A%2FC+Condenser&darcid=gooppc
Legend_master
05-10-2012, 02:55 PM
If you are going to go with a different refrigerant than R-12 I strongly recommend you replace the original serpentine flow condenser with a parallel flow condenser. Price is about the same and they make them for our cars. It has effectively higher surface area for better performance from R134a or one of the R-12 substitute refrigerants.
I am in the HVAC business and have researched this topic over the years as well.
I have already purchased the condensor, is there any way to tell visually the difference?
Just wanted to say that I'm planning to make my AC work as well, but I will not replace everything, I plan to do a leak test and replace the leaking parts (hope they are a few only). My car was retrofitted to R134a before I bought it. It colds pretty well when just charged, but losses the gas within 15 days. I'll follow your thread and see what I can learn.
Legend_master
05-11-2012, 11:14 AM
Just wanted to say that I'm planning to make my AC work as well, but I will not replace everything, I plan to do a leak test and replace the leaking parts (hope they are a few only). My car was retrofitted to R134a before I bought it. It colds pretty well when just charged, but losses the gas within 15 days. I'll follow your thread and see what I can learn.
Mine has been sitting for years without being used, and was never converted to the new standard. I am trying to restore the car to it's original greatness (or better) lol.
DBMaster
05-11-2012, 11:37 AM
Don't quote me on this, but I believe that a parallel flow condenser looks more like a radiator - all aluminum, with flattish tubes running horizontally and "parallel" to each other. A serpentine condenser generally has aluminum fins with round copper tubing running through it and has semi-circular elbows on the sides so it's basically like one or two long single tubes.
My car was retrofitted with Freeze 12 two years ago when I put in a new compressor. I am still running the original expansion valve, evaporator, hoses (replaced in 1999 when I retrofitted to a Denso compressor), and tubing. I replaced the drier two years ago as well. I measured output temperature at the vents at around 43 degrees. That was approximately three degrees higher than my best R-12 temperature output. Freeze 12 is a blend that is 80% R134a and 20% R142b. That allows it to operate at similar pressures to R-12 and also carries the mineral oil through the system so you don't have to change out or add a different type of oil to the system. For the most part, it performs well. Last summer set a record for days at or above 100.
I think if I had replaced the condenser last year I might have met or beaten the R-12 vent temp. This car has always seemed to have a weak A/C to me. That's probably because my last car was a Pontiac with a Frigidaire A6 compressor that had output temps in the low 30's. NOTHING will seem good after that.
DBMaster
05-11-2012, 11:56 AM
With that said, I don't think I would go to any large amount of trouble to change the condenser. I am satisfied with the current performance of my A/C system. Strangely enough, I used to have to add about a half-can a year of R-12 to the system and now it has been two years running without having to do a top-off. I have had the car since new and am on the third compressor. I only install NEW (non-rebuilt) compressors. I've never seen a rebuilt last more than three years. I got my last one from Rock Auto, an OEM Denso, for $300.
The original compressor was a Keihin, BTW. The second was a Denso that came as part of a kit from Honda with new hoses and manifold. Compressors replaced in 1999 and 2010.
DBMaster
05-11-2012, 12:14 PM
Sorry for being a post whore, but after 11.5 years having under 3,000 posts isn't too bad. :)
A few years ago I managed to get six cans of R-12 from a business associate who traveled to Mexico often. The stuff was $2.50/can there. I was using it to top off my system and have three cans left. I recently read that a lot of this "bootleg" R-12 that the authorities have confiscated is contaminated with things like air and water. My cans have a name brand on them (DuPont, I believe), but that could possibly be counterfeit.
If anyone feels like taking a chance in using it I would let you have it for just the cost of shipping. I cannot, in good conscience, sell it on eBay.
Legend_master
05-11-2012, 08:12 PM
Sorry for being a post whore, but after 11.5 years having under 3,000 posts isn't too bad. :)
A few years ago I managed to get six cans of R-12 from a business associate who traveled to Mexico often. The stuff was $2.50/can there. I was using it to top off my system and have three cans left. I recently read that a lot of this "bootleg" R-12 that the authorities have confiscated is contaminated with things like air and water. My cans have a name brand on them (DuPont, I believe), but that could possibly be counterfeit.
If anyone feels like taking a chance in using it I would let you have it for just the cost of shipping. I cannot, in good conscience, sell it on eBay.
Well that's kinda tempting lol. I wonder how long it will stay available? I'm just gonna bite the bullet and use this condesor (its the old style). If I can 43 degrees inthe middle of summer in Texas ill be exstatic lol. Really just can't handle sweaty back going to work from lunch.
gp02a0083
05-11-2012, 09:23 PM
I think if I had replaced the condenser last year I might have met or beaten the R-12 vent temp. This car has always seemed to have a weak A/C to me. That's probably because my last car was a Pontiac with a Frigidaire A6 compressor that had output temps in the low 30's. NOTHING will seem good after that.
I'm not sure about the condenser, so i can't comment on that. Legend you did the right thing with getting a new drier, most people don't replace this. I suggest getting a A/c vac pump from harbor freight, apply vac to the system for 30min to an hour. then charge the system as necessary. on my 89 hatch i just replaced the keihnin to a new denso, replaced the drier , applied vac to the system for 40 or so min, charged it and i get about 38* at the center vent. So i don't think your going to have a problem with the condenser. I also retrofitted my 86 442 to 134 as well, makes frost on the windshield @ idle on a 80* day easily.
DBMaster
05-12-2012, 08:32 AM
Humidity on the day you measure temp makes a difference. So, mine might make better than 43 if the conditions are right. Regardless, it is adequate, no complaints. I should probably hang onto the R-12 in case I need it for my 1991 vintage refrigerator. Household refrigerators used to use R-12, unlike A/C units that used R-22. Sorry about stressing you out over the condenser. Since the performance of mine with the original 1989 condenser is good, yours should be, too. I am just so tired of hearing people talk about how their new A/C setup is "so cold you can hang meat in the car." It keeps me from sweating on a 100+ degree day. My car is white with high end window tint and I use a windshield shade if I park in the sun. Most of the time I am in a garage - parking garage at work and garage at home. So, my A/C rarely has to cool an oven. There has been far too much energy expended on A/C topics here.
Since I am old-school I pretty much assume a receiver/drier is part of ANY A/C service that involves opening of the system, even for a few minutes. For $30 it's very cheap insurance.
obdriver6
05-13-2012, 07:23 PM
Nice! I also plan on fixing my A/C since my compressor took a crap at the end of last years summer but since I don't want to spent a lot of money on a compressor, I'll be hitting the jy ( I know, I'm cheap). I do plan on replacing the receiver drier, do a system flush and check for leaks. I will also convert to R134. Its getting hotter by the day here in Vegas so I plan to do it very soon!
Legend_master
05-14-2012, 09:50 AM
What do ya'll think about replacing the thermostat, has anyone seen them fail? I figure if I am in there, I might as well do it.
2oodoor
05-14-2012, 09:57 AM
you mean the "expansion valve" ?
Either way if you're asking the question you already know the answer, do it!
great thread, this is something I will need to do If I am going to drive a Honda this summer! my vehicles are like 140 degrees inside after sitting in the parking lot all day at work. Heh, and I have two very slow traffic lights right as I leave work, so no breeze.
DBMaster
05-14-2012, 10:06 AM
^^Probably a good idea, but it is a pain to access. Mine is still original. Both times I replaced the A/C I had it done at a shop for the equipment. I have done them myself plenty of times, too. They did not see a need to replaced the expansion valve, but if you are replacing the evaporator it is not much extra trouble.
Legend_master
05-14-2012, 12:16 PM
you mean the "expansion valve" ?
Either way if you're asking the question you already know the answer, do it!
great thread, this is something I will need to do If I am going to drive a Honda this summer! my vehicles are like 140 degrees inside after sitting in the parking lot all day at work. Heh, and I have two very slow traffic lights right as I leave work, so no breeze.
There is an expansion valve with a capillary tube that is mounted to one of the pipes coming from the evaporator core, but there is also a thermostat inside the housing that has a metal wire that goes between the fins of the evaporator core.
^^Probably a good idea, but it is a pain to access. Mine is still original. Both times I replaced the A/C I had it done at a shop for the equipment. I have done them myself plenty of times, too. They did not see a need to replaced the expansion valve, but if you are replacing the evaporator it is not much extra trouble.
Mine is all out of the car, so I will replace the valve.
DBMaster
05-14-2012, 03:17 PM
Good idea. I know about the thermostat. I remember a friend buying a 1986 Accord hatch when they first came out. It was a DX 5-speed. There was an issue with a lot of these cars, initially, with the thermostat allowing the evaporator to freeze. Fortunately, the issue was long since resolved when my car was built in 89.
Here's the thing, though. While it's a good idea to replace the TEV (thermal expansion valve), you might want to do a small amount of research to verify that the same TEV that works well with R-12 will work well with your chosen refrigerant. Mine seems to work fine with Freeze 12, but that does not mean it wouldn't work BETTER with a different TEV.
I only think about this because my job involves purchasing of TEV's for home air conditioning systems and there are MANY. There are also those that are specified for use with R-22 and with R-410a. Maybe the differences are slight, but since you have it torn down to this level...
ecogabriel
05-14-2012, 06:35 PM
Just wanted to say that I'm planning to make my AC work as well, but I will not replace everything, I plan to do a leak test and replace the leaking parts (hope they are a few only). My car was retrofitted to R134a before I bought it. It colds pretty well when just charged, but losses the gas within 15 days. I'll follow your thread and see what I can learn.
You may try a cheap fix first. Replace the schrader valves at the low and high pressure ports, and make sure the caps are closed tight. My civic was leaking (r-12) and I found out the schrader valves were leaking badly.
With new valves and the caps tightened (I should have gotten new ones, though) it does not leak now.
You need the caps because the schrader valves seem to leak a little; my 3G did not have them and it was low on r-12 (ask the idiots that recharged it why they did not reinstall them). Just scavenged a couple of caps from the jy for a cheapo fix and with a recharge now works fine.
ecogabriel
05-14-2012, 06:54 PM
Good idea. I know about the thermostat. I remember a friend buying a 1986 Accord hatch when they first came out. It was a DX 5-speed. There was an issue with a lot of these cars, initially, with the thermostat allowing the evaporator to freeze. Fortunately, the issue was long since resolved when my car was built in 89.
Here's the thing, though. While it's a good idea to replace the TEV (thermal expansion valve), you might want to do a small amount of research to verify that the same TEV that works well with R-12 will work well with your chosen refrigerant. Mine seems to work fine with Freeze 12, but that does not mean it wouldn't work BETTER with a different TEV.
I only think about this because my job involves purchasing of TEV's for home air conditioning systems and there are MANY. There are also those that are specified for use with R-22 and with R-410a. Maybe the differences are slight, but since you have it torn down to this level...
I heard (or read) that there are expansion valves for r-134, that would work better than the ones installed in the car, because of the difference in operating pressures. It may be a good idea to double check if you go the r-134 way.
Dr_Snooz
05-14-2012, 09:06 PM
What do ya'll think about replacing the thermostat, has anyone seen them fail? I figure if I am in there, I might as well do it.
The one in my 4g went out.
hondalude86
05-15-2012, 09:10 PM
I am also interested in getting my ac working. I bought the car from messy, so im not sure to what extent the ac needs. It looks to be pretty complete but most likely doesnt have any charge in it. Reason i bring this up is im curious about the function of the clutch on This compressor. Ive pushed the ac button on and off to see if the clutch would engage but it never did. I was curious if this was a function of having a low/no pressure situation that keeps the ac from engaging to prevent potential damage to the compressor. Jessie, any insight about what is in the car would be great!
gp02a0083
05-16-2012, 03:29 AM
I am also interested in getting my ac working. I bought the car from messy, so im not sure to what extent the ac needs. It looks to be pretty complete but most likely doesnt have any charge in it. Reason i bring this up is im curious about the function of the clutch on This compressor. Ive pushed the ac button on and off to see if the clutch would engage but it never did. I was curious if this was a function of having a low/no pressure situation that keeps the ac from engaging to prevent potential damage to the compressor. Jessie, any insight about what is in the car would be great!
usually when you are low on refrigerant, the compressor will cycle on/ off that clutch frequently, if it doesn't turn on the clutch may be bad or your not getting the right signal / voltage to the clutch to engage
DBMaster
05-16-2012, 08:19 AM
When I still had my original Keihin compressor the air gap between the pressure plates of the clutch had increased just to the point of not engaging. It would work when the car was "cold" but as soon as the engine compartment got hot it would no longer engage. I tested the magnetic coil by sticking a wrench to the front the the compressor when it was energized. When I took it in to get the air gap adjusted (shimmed) I was informed that the front seal was leaking and that it would not pay to mess with the clutch. The mechanic was a good Honda shop so I went with the kit from Honda that used a Denso compressor. The clutch coil actually shorted out on that one after 11 years and burned the insulation from the main wire. The smoke coming out from under the hood scared the heck out of me.
There is also a pressure switch near the drier and if the refrigerant level gets too low it will keep the clutch from engaging. There's a relay near the radiator on the driver's side that is also part of the electrical circuit for the clutch.
So, the short answer is that it could be a number of things. :)
Legend_master
05-18-2012, 02:04 PM
Charging the system now, I'll update when it's done.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Legend_Master/097679cf.jpg
Legend_master
05-18-2012, 03:47 PM
Well it was blowing at 48 degrees. Would like it a little colder, but not complaining. It added a lot of vibration, but once I build a front mount that should help.
gp02a0083
05-18-2012, 05:03 PM
:rockon: yah the A/c has done that to all 3 hatches I have owned
DBMaster
05-19-2012, 08:12 AM
48 is not necessarily bad depending upon ambient temp and humidity. How hot was it outside? Are you running straight R134a, or one of the R12 alternatives? I spoke with my mechanic about why he likes Freeze 12. He said aside from not needing to add any different oil to the system, the blend runs similar pressure to R12 and can use the same expansion valve.
By the way, the 43 degrees that I measured was at highway speed. I usually only measure temps in the garage if I am charging the system myself. Try measuring yours with the vents in the recirculate setting and while driving at speed.
AccordB20A
05-19-2012, 12:52 PM
at least it sort of works good. i kept a complete accord AC system in case i decided to re-install mine. but i think thats not gunna happen it doesn't get THAT hot here really.
Legend_master
05-20-2012, 09:03 AM
48 is not necessarily bad depending upon ambient temp and humidity. How hot was it outside? Are you running straight R134a, or one of the R12 alternatives? I spoke with my mechanic about why he likes Freeze 12. He said aside from not needing to add any different oil to the system, the blend runs similar pressure to R12 and can use the same expansion valve.
By the way, the 43 degrees that I measured was at highway speed. I usually only measure temps in the garage if I am charging the system myself. Try measuring yours with the vents in the recirculate setting and while driving at speed.
That temp was at lower speeds like 45mph. I'm still happy with it, just need to play around withthe settings. Seems like setting the fan to a lower speed yeilds cooler temps.
at least it sort of works good. i kept a complete accord AC system in case i decided to re-install mine. but i think thats not gunna happen it doesn't get THAT hot here really.
After 40 days+ in a row over 100 last year I decided to start my AC stuff lol.
obdriver6
05-21-2012, 04:31 PM
I'd kill to have 48 degree air blowing in my car!
Legend_master
05-22-2012, 06:34 AM
I'd kill to have 48 degree air blowing in my car!
I'm not complaining, but colder would be better lol.
Legend_master
06-05-2012, 07:59 PM
So the used compressor I bought leaked from the manifold seals(3 bolt denso). So I purchased a brand new 4bolt denso compressor, and it works perfectly. Did not have a thermometer, but it was definitely blowing colder, and did so much faster.
DBMaster
06-06-2012, 05:01 AM
Master, where did you buy your Denso? Rock Auto?
Legend_master
06-06-2012, 06:22 AM
Master, where did you buy your Denso? Rock Auto?
Yep, got it from rock auto. I am trying to link to the one I got, but it looks like their website is down. It did not come with the manifold, lucky enough I still had a spare in my storage. It did however come with a manifold gasket, which is a plus since those can not be purchased separately.
DBMaster
06-06-2012, 06:33 AM
That's where I bought mine two years ago. I was just curious in case you got it cheaper. I bought a brand new aftermarket compressor for my daughter's Infiniti last year. It cost about $300, also. The company that I bought it from claimed that theirs was better than OEM and listed a bunch of reasons. The first one failed in two weeks. They made good and sent me a new one free, but I had to pay for installation twice!
Legend_master
06-06-2012, 06:51 AM
That's where I bought mine two years ago. I was just curious in case you got it cheaper. I bought a brand new aftermarket compressor for my daughter's Infiniti last year. It cost about $300, also. The company that I bought it from claimed that theirs was better than OEM and listed a bunch of reasons. The first one failed in two weeks. They made good and sent me a new one free, but I had to pay for installation twice!
Thats a POA, I've had to do 2 re-charges now myself. I really only bought the used one the first time cause I was not sure my A/C would even work with the b-swap. I'm glad I went with the OEM denso this time, it seems like a good future investment.
DBMaster
06-06-2012, 08:06 AM
My Denso is kind of noisy, but then, so was the one I had before it. My car originally came with a Keihin which I replaced with the expensive kit from Honda in 1999 that included a Denso compressor, manifold, hoses, drier, and belt. That one lasted until 2010. This time around I just replaced the compressor and drier. I believe that the Keihin was a quieter unit, though, not as durable. I heard it nicknamed "the eight year compressor" but I don't recall where I heard that. The clutch went bad on the car's original compressor so the Honda dealer replaced the whole thing under warranty in 1991. Thus, my Keihin lasted only eight years.
Legend_master
06-06-2012, 08:58 AM
My Denso is kind of noisy, but then, so was the one I had before it. My car originally came with a Keihin which I replaced with the expensive kit from Honda in 1999 that included a Denso compressor, manifold, hoses, drier, and belt. That one lasted until 2010. This time around I just replaced the compressor and drier. I believe that the Keihin was a quieter unit, though, not as durable. I heard it nicknamed "the eight year compressor" but I don't recall where I heard that. The clutch went bad on the car's original compressor so the Honda dealer replaced the whole thing under warranty in 1991. Thus, my Keihin lasted only eight years.
10 years sounds perfect to me, I just hope Denso still sells these in 10 years lol. The Keihin compressor was not even an option for me, the PRI bracket seems to only work with the Denso style compressors. It actually has more room for adjustment with the 3 bolt style Denso, but I made it work with the 4 bolt. I also had to get 35.4" belt to make it work.
Legend_master
07-22-2012, 07:11 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v667/Legend_Master/8854ff23.jpg
Got the windows tinted, let's see if that help keep the temps down some.
DBMaster
07-22-2012, 07:55 AM
The tint will definitely help lower the heat buildup inside the car, plus it blocks UV. That saved my interior and kept it fade and crack free for the car's life. If you don't already use a windshield screen, do that too. I resisted for years because they're kind of annoying, but they help a lot.
nswst8
07-22-2012, 09:23 AM
Yep, these cars have alot of exposed interior via all the windows. Tinting will dramatically increase the A/C ability to cold the interior. Sun shades are a must in hot temp areas of the country.
Ever jump into your car on a hot day and couldn't hold the steering wheel because of the radiant heat through the windshield?
Legend_master
07-23-2012, 07:38 AM
The tint will definitely help lower the heat buildup inside the car, plus it blocks UV. That saved my interior and kept it fade and crack free for the car's life. If you don't already use a windshield screen, do that too. I resisted for years because they're kind of annoying, but they help a lot.
Yep, these cars have alot of exposed interior via all the windows. Tinting will dramatically increase the A/C ability to cold the interior. Sun shades are a must in hot temp areas of the country.
Ever jump into your car on a hot day and couldn't hold the steering wheel because of the radiant heat through the windshield?
Had to take off my 3Geez sticker for the tint, so maybe I will get a 3Geez front windshield visor lol. So far the tint had made a dramatic difference, must be a good 15-20 degrees cooler when I get in the car.
DBMaster
07-23-2012, 08:18 AM
I have noticed that a lot of new cars come from the factory now with relatively dark tint (compared to older cars from the 80's and 90's). They leave the front windows lighter because the tint needs to be 50-state legal. (Yes, I asked the dealer about it.) I can't decide about whether or not to just get the front windows tinted to match the rest, darken all of them, or just leave it alone. The car spends the majority of its time in my garage or the company parking garage. I do like not having to worry over nicking or scratching the tint film and also being able to see out the back window well at night.
I may ask the tint shop about that clear tint that just further cuts UV and IR rays.
Legend_master
07-23-2012, 08:40 AM
I have noticed that a lot of new cars come from the factory now with relatively dark tint (compared to older cars from the 80's and 90's). They leave the front windows lighter because the tint needs to be 50-state legal. (Yes, I asked the dealer about it.) I can't decide about whether or not to just get the front windows tinted to match the rest, darken all of them, or just leave it alone. The car spends the majority of its time in my garage or the company parking garage. I do like not having to worry over nicking or scratching the tint film and also being able to see out the back window well at night.
I may ask the tint shop about that clear tint that just further cuts UV and IR rays.
I know for a fact that Texas police carry a meter device that measures how dark you window is. If you fail that test it is a pretty hefty ticket. I just went with the legal limit for that reason. From the research I have done, the most protective tint is the mirror tint. It actually protects from the most UV and IR. I'm not sure oh how the laws work with it tho, and it does not look good in my opinion.
nswst8
07-23-2012, 08:59 AM
Here in California when I bought our second 3rd gen I had a local shop do the tinting. You are not suppose to put any window tinting on the front driver/passenger windows at all. But the shop put the lightest possible full UV/IR tint on for me saying that the police are not that anal as long as they can view the interior.
DBMaster
07-23-2012, 09:38 AM
I got the Accord tinted, originally, in 1991. I went with the high-end tint of the time which was a two-layer laminated material from Madico (Sp?). It obviously worked well because the interior had no fading or cracking of the door panels or back seat and it did keep the interior cooler. After about10-12 years I started noticing that the windows looked a bit "dirty" from the outside, though, they looked fine from the inside. Later, I notice blurriness through the back window. The laminate had deteriorated and I had to have the tint removed and redone in 2009. The newer stuff is a single layer and blocks just as much radiation yet is easier to see through. I guess tint technology has changed with the times as well.
Patboy
08-08-2012, 09:18 AM
Nice job!
Wish the A/C worked in our 88 Accord. I love the car, but some days its just a pain to drive because of the damn heat!
As mentioned before, sunshades are essential :rockon:
Oldblueaccord
04-13-2013, 07:45 AM
10 years sounds perfect to me, I just hope Denso still sells these in 10 years lol. The Keihin compressor was not even an option for me, the PRI bracket seems to only work with the Denso style compressors. It actually has more room for adjustment with the 3 bolt style Denso, but I made it work with the 4 bolt. I also had to get 35.4" belt to make it work.
Just adding to this researching AC compressors. Mine went bad last week,locked up, I put it on used in 1995 so they can last. It was used to begin with.
What is the part number of the compressor you used?
Legend_master
07-16-2013, 08:18 PM
134a conversion valve failed and leaked all the Freon out. I recharged the system with a propane butane mix from enviro-safe. I waisted 2 cans due to the stupid valve, but with 1 can putting the system at 75% full. The AC is blowing significantly colder. It was very easy to install, says NOT to draw a vacuum, only cost $6.00 a can, and puts less strain on the compressor, plus it is better for the environment. I've got one more can on order, I'll update after I install.
Environmentally Friendly Refrigerant and Automotive Fluid Products - Enviro-Safe, Inc (http://www.es-refrigerants.com/)
Good info Legend, Its been cloudy all this week and my A/C has been working great, but in the normal sunny days its not cold enough.
I have been thinking in changing the R134a with any other R-whatever gas just to see if it gets that little bit colder I need to feel comfortable when sunny.
Reading your experience, I think I am going to throw my current charge away and replace with whatever A/C gas I found available in my local stores.
Legend_master
07-17-2013, 12:28 PM
This stuff is compatible with r12 and 134a as well as both oils. They recommend removing any old refrigerant as it will reduce the performance of the enviro-safe. Can't wait to see what this stuff does with a full charge!
Legend_master
04-03-2014, 04:30 PM
I've had my ac filled with Enviro-safe for almost a year now. Still blows cold, and no leaks.
Hauntd ca3
04-04-2014, 01:02 AM
. It was very easy to install, says NOT to draw a vacuum,
what they will mean, is that you dont want the low pressure side to pull a vacuum when the A/C is going.
doing that increases the chances of a seal leaking and sucking in air.
get a set of gauges, which will cost you guys in the states bout $2 and a vac pump. do as said earlier in the thread and vac the system out and leave it for a while.
refill the system so that the low side drops to bout 5 psi when revving at say 3000 rpm.
or if there is a sight glass on the receiver drier , fill until the bubble just about disappear when the compressor is going.
thats how i do it, and it works alright.
and i'm amazed you can get R12 over there, and that you'd run propane/butane in the A/C.
Dr_Snooz
04-04-2014, 06:13 AM
what they will mean, is that you dont want the low pressure side to pull a vacuum when the A/C is going.
doing that increases the chances of a seal leaking and sucking in air.
get a set of gauges, which will cost you guys in the states bout $2 and a vac pump. do as said earlier in the thread and vac the system out and leave it for a while.
refill the system so that the low side drops to bout 5 psi when revving at say 3000 rpm.
or if there is a sight glass on the receiver drier , fill until the bubble just about disappear when the compressor is going.
thats how i do it, and it works alright.
and i'm amazed you can get R12 over there, and that you'd run propane/butane in the A/C.
You don't have to pull a vacuum because propane doesn't react with moisture like the other refrigerants. R12 turns to acid when exposed to moisture. Nor does propane require a complicated conversion, flushing, special oils, or anything else really. If it weren't so flammable, it would be the perfect mobile refrigerant because it's so effective and versatile. If you can make a bottle adapter to run it to your gauges, you can run propane straight from a BBQ bottle. BBQ gas works great in the 3g A/C, but not as well in systems that use an orifice tube, like my truck.
A lot of us here run propane because our choices really boil down to propane A/C or no A/C. R12 is theoretically available if you can afford it. Of course, if you can afford R12, you can afford a DD a lot newer than a 3g. If you can't afford R12 and have a job that requires you not to be a sweaty, disheveled mess when you arrive in the morning, then you need propane A/C.
If propane gives you the willies, difluoroethane (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl4qOySVru0) is another choice I just learned about. It is not compatible with mineral oil, so you'll have to flush and add oil to the system before recharging. It is crazy cheap though and readily available. I might run it in the truck because propane keeps freezing the evaporator.
Legend_master
04-04-2014, 07:00 AM
Honestly I'm not worried about the propain igniting. It would have to be exposed to a direct flame. At that point the gasoline is just as dangerous. For the most part I think it would just make a quick torch effect and run out. I've also been told that the propain/butane mix is easier on the compressor. It's readily available, and cheap to buy.
Oldblueaccord
04-04-2014, 11:41 AM
I've had my ac filled with Enviro-safe for almost a year now. Still blows cold, and no leaks.
I put it in the 77 Lebaron I'm having good luck with it. its not quite as cold as Freeze 12 was but that was 8 years ago and the system is original. I might add in an oil charge just for a kick and see what happens.
Whats the best oil for Enviro safe you think?
Legend_master
04-04-2014, 02:46 PM
From what I've read it does not make a difference so long as the oil is at the right level. I'm running r134 compatible oil (pag I believe), since they sell it as a 134 replacement.
Dr_Snooz
04-05-2014, 07:45 AM
Honestly I'm not worried about the propain igniting. It would have to be exposed to a direct flame. At that point the gasoline is just as dangerous.
It has to be at the right atmospheric concentration (2.1-10.1%) and auto-ignition is at a fairly high temp (~900F). Under the hood, you're unlikely to achieve high enough concentrations for an explosion, especially while driving. Cabins are fairly well ventilated when in use, so concentrations are again unlikely to build up dangerously. Having said that, some researchers tried emptying an entire system charge into the cabin of a test car. They ignited the mix, expecting nothing and were surprised when the windows blew out, embedding chunks of glass in their faces. Obviously, there was a lot of risk under the specialized conditions of the experiment, which don't really correspond to actual conditions. I would say there is a real danger if you have a very big evaporator leak, sleep in the car overnight and then light a cigarette in the morning without opening the doors. Caveat emptor. In any other conditions, the risk is moderate at best. What doesn't often get mentioned in discussions of propane refrigerants is that R134 is also flammable, albeit under more unlikely circumstances (~1400F).
Flammability isn't the only concern with refrigerants, of course. Toxicity is also a consideration and I'd rather work with propane than 134 based on toxicity.
I've also been told that the propain/butane mix is easier on the compressor. It's readily available, and cheap to buy.
BBQ gas is a LOT cheaper than any mixture and seems to work quite well with the expansion valve setup in the 3g. On orifice tube setups, straight propane works a little too well. The temps rise and fall so quickly that you get rapid cycling, which puts a heavy burden on the clutch. Butane mellows the propane out and you get less rapid cycling. IMHO, orifice tubes are an inferior design that look better on a cost accountant's spreadsheet than in the real world. For my truck, I would rather modify the orifice tube design to work better with a wider range of refrigerants than to fart around with over-priced, hard-to-find proprietary blends.
Just my $0.02.
Legend_master
04-05-2014, 10:51 AM
It has to be at the right atmospheric concentration (2.1-10.1%) and auto-ignition is at a fairly high temp (~900F). Under the hood, you're unlikely to achieve high enough concentrations for an explosion, especially while driving. Cabins are fairly well ventilated when in use, so concentrations are again unlikely to build up dangerously. Having said that, some researchers tried emptying an entire system charge into the cabin of a test car. They ignited the mix, expecting nothing and were surprised when the windows blew out, embedding chunks of glass in their faces. Obviously, there was a lot of risk under the specialized conditions of the experiment, which don't really correspond to actual conditions. I would say there is a real danger if you have a very big evaporator leak, sleep in the car overnight and then light a cigarette in the morning without opening the doors. Caveat emptor. In any other conditions, the risk is moderate at best. What doesn't often get mentioned in discussions of propane refrigerants is that R134 is also flammable, albeit under more unlikely circumstances (~1400F).
Flammability isn't the only concern with refrigerants, of course. Toxicity is also a consideration and I'd rather work with propane than 134 based on toxicity.
BBQ gas is a LOT cheaper than any mixture and seems to work quite well with the expansion valve setup in the 3g. On orifice tube setups, straight propane works a little too well. The temps rise and fall so quickly that you get rapid cycling, which puts a heavy burden on the clutch. Butane mellows the propane out and you get less rapid cycling. IMHO, orifice tubes are an inferior design that look better on a cost accountant's spreadsheet than in the real world. For my truck, I would rather modify the orifice tube design to work better with a wider range of refrigerants than to fart around with over-priced, hard-to-find proprietary blends.
Just my $0.02.
I couldn't agree anymore, I only play $3.00 a can for the enviro-safe stuff. I'd rather pay a little more, and help promote a company the is promoting the use of it. I think the freon industry is banking by using fear mongering.
AccordB20A
04-05-2014, 05:42 PM
Ive learned so much about AC by reading this thread. usually when i get a car out it comes. The accord i bought just yesterday has working aircon which is a miracle
gp02a0083
04-09-2014, 03:21 AM
the stock system is pretty good on these with the denso setup. my 89 hatch had the crummy compressor, swapped it out for the denso. Note: when swapping the lines over take note of the locating pin, had to drill mine out. Once i Evac'd the system for an hour and charged it , i was able to get 32 out of the center dash at highway speed with outside temps around 80. Evacuating the system is really important, longer the better if your not replacing your dryer. It was a waste of my time when I found out the low side valve was leaking....:uh:
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