Cooling fan resistance?

[hondaaccorddrew]

I have been tracing a ground that starts in my fuse box, and that the wire grounding out was blue w/black stripe. In another post, I discussed finding it and that it leads to the engine cooling fans. Here's the issue. On the continuity test, the meter beeps steady when checking the disconnected terminals on both fans. Fan one has .002 ohms grounding to postive, and fan 2 has .004. Both fans work, but I do not wanna blow another alternator cause it's generating on a grounded connection. When I disconnect them, the fault to ground disappears from the wire and the fuse box. What is the resistance on the fan motor supposed to be? Is this normal or are they trash? They are $150 each... so... any help is appreciated!

[88Accord-DX]

There are no kind of specs for resistance for the cooling fan... If ur worried about a circuit or ground, put a load on that circuit with some leads to a headlight bulb.. 12 volt sorce on the other end..

[lostforawhile]

I have been tracing a ground that starts in my fuse box, and that the wire grounding out was blue w/black stripe. In another post, I discussed finding it and that it leads to the engine cooling fans. Here's the issue. On the continuity test, the meter beeps steady when checking the disconnected terminals on both fans. Fan one has .002 ohms grounding to postive, and fan 2 has .004. Both fans work, but I do not wanna blow another alternator cause it's generating on a grounded connection. When I disconnect them, the fault to ground disappears from the wire and the fuse box. What is the resistance on the fan motor supposed to be? Is this normal or are they trash? They are $150 each... so... any help is appreciated!

you are just reading a phantom ground through the fan motor is all. if you hook the fan to power and it spins,it's fine. if it was shorted out that badly,it wouldn't work at all.

[lostforawhile]

no power from the under dash fuse panel goes directly to the fans, there is a black/yellow wire from fuse 12 in that fuse box, but it's to power the fan relay,not directly power the fans. The fan power is blue/black and black, but it goes directly to the fan relay in the underhood fuse box. power to that relay comes directly from fuse 9,which is 30 amps and under the hood, if you had a fan short, it would blow fuse 9 under the hood. The AC circuit is very simple in the way it controls the fans, the fan relay is switched on by the coolant switch grounding. The AC circuit simply grounds the same circuit. The radiator fan and the AC condenser fan are both wired together, they should both run. If this was an LXI it would get much more complicated, but yours is an lx,

[hondaaccorddrew]

no power from the under dash fuse panel goes directly to the fans, there is a black/yellow wire from fuse 12 in that fuse box, but it's to power the fan relay,not directly power the fans. The fan power is blue/black and black, but it goes directly to the fan relay in the underhood fuse box. power to that relay comes directly from fuse 9,which is 30 amps and under the hood, if you had a fan short, it would blow fuse 9 under the hood. The AC circuit is very simple in the way it controls the fans, the fan relay is switched on by the coolant switch grounding. The AC circuit simply grounds the same circuit. The radiator fan and the AC condenser fan are both wired together, they should both run. If this was an LXI it would get much more complicated, but yours is an lx,

Yeah they both run when the AC is on, and when the set temperature for the thermoswitch is achieved. I have a problem somewhere though cause it was grounding completely with no resistance on this blue/black positive wire. Also, under full electrical load (headlights, AC, fans, window defroster) everything is dim and under 12.3 volts with the engine running. Turn everything off, and it jumps up to normal charging voltage. Either all my previous alternators cannot supply the current under load at idle, or something is wrong.

[Oldblueaccord]

Might be a pretty big amp draw all that running esp since its all old stuff. The rear defroster esp can pull a lot. A lazy fan motor can also. AC clutch can too if its gap is out of spec.


wp

[lostforawhile]

Yeah they both run when the AC is on, and when the set temperature for the thermoswitch is achieved. I have a problem somewhere though cause it was grounding completely with no resistance on this blue/black positive wire. Also, under full electrical load (headlights, AC, fans, window defroster) everything is dim and under 12.3 volts with the engine running. Turn everything off, and it jumps up to normal charging voltage. Either all my previous alternators cannot supply the current under load at idle, or something is wrong.

check the ground strap between the engine and the body,make sure the terminals are clean especially . I don't think you have a short a digital meter can fool you with low resistance,also several items are connected in parallel to the circuit you are measuring,making it appear to have no resistance, it's not really shorted, a short bad enough to drain the alternator would be causing smoke and flames by now

[Vanilla Sky]

Sounds like you're reading some phantom voltage there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stray_voltage

[hondaaccorddrew]

Guys, I just blew my 3rd alternator in the past 6 months. This one only lasted a month, the last one lasted 30 mins but I had a shorted choke heater. Something is up... and I am not reading any grounds except for the fans. Suggestions?

[Vanilla Sky]

Have you replaced the battery, or at least had it tested? A shorted battery will do that to an alternator.

[hondaaccorddrew]

Have you replaced the battery, or at least had it tested? A shorted battery will do that to an alternator.

Yeah, the battery is new. I even decided to do deep cycle and make sure it was charged, just so when the alternator died out again, I could still do my driving and then re-charge when I got home.

[hondaaccorddrew]

Well, I guess this goes back onto the subject of grounding out. I started tracing that thick blue/black stripe wire again. Disconnected the two fans, the temp switch, and it also goes underneath the passenger compartment to the blower and the resistor for the fan speeds. After disconnecting all of that, the fan would only run on high. The short would go away if I turned the dial to anything but the "HI" function. But it was still present. It was grounding out with no resistance. I followed it to a large blue plug under the steering wheel. When I disconnected it still stayed grounded, but the cooling fans and blower no longer had power. Then, I turned off the ignition. What does this mean? I doubt this wire is supposed to be switched to ground when it's the hot to everything else it's attached to. The ground is only gone if the ignition is off and the large plug is removed. Where else does this wire go? I hope I do not sound obcessed. But since I have trashed several hundred dollars in alternators, this is my only lead. Thanks to all.

[ecogabriel]

Yeah, the battery is new. I even decided to do deep cycle and make sure it was charged, just so when the alternator died out again, I could still do my driving and then re-charge when I got home.

Have you replaced the battery's GROUND wire? I do not know if a a lost ground may kill an alternator, but I know my car started doing strange things -lights going very low when pressing the brake light at night.

The wire is very thin, and just decided I would replace it. No more problems.

[hondaaccorddrew]

Have you replaced the battery's GROUND wire? I do not know if a a lost ground may kill an alternator, but I know my car started doing strange things -lights going very low when pressing the brake light at night.

The wire is very thin, and just decided I would replace it. No more problems.

Yeah, the lights go dim at night. It is quite a small battery. It doesn't look like it could cover more than 60 amps now that I think about it, which is the alternator's current rating. With the lights on at night, I step on the brakes or I am at idle everything goes dim. More RMP's fixes this, everything is back up to brightness. Worse when the defogger is on. After I fix this problem with grounding out and toasting alternators, I will try replacing this to hope the dimming issue goes away.

[lostforawhile]

Yeah, the lights go dim at night. It is quite a small battery. It doesn't look like it could cover more than 60 amps now that I think about it, which is the alternator's current rating. With the lights on at night, I step on the brakes or I am at idle everything goes dim. More RMP's fixes this, everything is back up to brightness. Worse when the defogger is on. After I fix this problem with grounding out and toasting alternators, I will try replacing this to hope the dimming issue goes away.

all the battery does is start the car and provide power if the alternator quits,the entire car runs off of the alternator, it's the most common misconception in automotive wiring, everyone thinks a bigger battery will fix all kinds of stuff, when the power to run everything comes from the alternator. You don't have a short,trust me, I've been working on car electrical stuff since I was a little kid, you have an issue with a ground, a bad connection, or the alternator isn't producing the rated output it's supposed to. there should be a strap from the transmission to the body, as well as some other grounds, undo those and clean the mounting surfaces and reinstall them. the ground strap from the transmission to the body isn't very good, I would buy a premade battery cable with an eyelet on each end, and replace that. check your battery terminals, if they are bad, the alternator will use a lot of it's output trying to charge a badly drained battery, this will also toast your alternator, it's not made to do that, it's supposed to replace the charge from starting the car, and that's it. The lower the battery voltage, the more current is going into it trying to charge it, a battery close to 12 volts,isn't using much charge current,vs a battery much lower. Take the car to an auto parts store, etc, who can measure charging current, have them check the actual output of the alternator while it's heavily loaded I'll bet the current is way down.

[hondaaccorddrew]

all the battery does is start the car and provide power if the alternator quits,the entire car runs off of the alternator, it's the most common misconception in automotive wiring, everyone thinks a bigger battery will fix all kinds of stuff, when the power to run everything comes from the alternator. You don't have a short,trust me, I've been working on car electrical stuff since I was a little kid, you have an issue with a ground, a bad connection, or the alternator isn't producing the rated output it's supposed to. there should be a strap from the transmission to the body, as well as some other grounds, undo those and clean the mounting surfaces and reinstall them. the ground strap from the transmission to the body isn't very good, I would buy a premade battery cable with an eyelet on each end, and replace that. check your battery terminals, if they are bad, the alternator will use a lot of it's output trying to charge a badly drained battery, this will also toast your alternator, it's not made to do that, it's supposed to replace the charge from starting the car, and that's it. The lower the battery voltage, the more current is going into it trying to charge it, a battery close to 12 volts,isn't using much charge current,vs a battery much lower. Take the car to an auto parts store, etc, who can measure charging current, have them check the actual output of the alternator while it's heavily loaded I'll bet the current is way down.

Sorry, I meant wire not battery in that first sentence where I said "it's quite a small battery." My bad. Anyhow, I guess I will replace the alternator again and try larger grounds since they are so small, and try again. When I got my battery, it showed 13.1 volts. On the current loss thing, you're right. At idle, with all of my accessories on and a *working* alternator, I have barely produced above 12.4, not including it in gear with the brake lights on also. If you're positive I do not have a short on this wire or anywhere else in my car, I will leave it be.

[lostforawhile]

Sorry, I meant wire not battery in that first sentence where I said "it's quite a small battery." My bad. Anyhow, I guess I will replace the alternator again and try larger grounds since they are so small, and try again. When I got my battery, it showed 13.1 volts. On the current loss thing, you're right. At idle, with all of my accessories on and a *working* alternator, I have barely produced above 12.4, not including it in gear with the brake lights on also. If you're positive I do not have a short on this wire or anywhere else in my car, I will leave it be.

before you go replacing your alternator have it's output current checked with it heavily loaded. if you have a bad ground it won't be able to produce maximum output either, check the alternator terminal at the fuse box, check the terminal at the back of the alternator, your alternator might be fine, but other issues are causing it to not operate properly. You said voltage goes up above idle? I've had that issue with alternators before too, they are supposed to be on at idle but some don't like to work at that low of an rpm

[hondaaccorddrew]

before you go replacing your alternator have it's output current checked with it heavily loaded. if you have a bad ground it won't be able to produce maximum output either, check the alternator terminal at the fuse box, check the terminal at the back of the alternator, your alternator might be fine, but other issues are causing it to not operate properly. You said voltage goes up above idle? I've had that issue with alternators before too, they are supposed to be on at idle but some don't like to work at that low of an rpm

I checked the terminal to the alternator and ground at the casing. No output sadly. When I was driving along, I was accelerating and suddenly my RMP's snapped up to about 5,000 and my stereo shut off and went into protective mode, same with my gauges and stuff since the alternator was overproducing. This lasted for about 5 seconds then everything came back on when the overvoltage quit and my battery light came on. At that point, I knew it wasn't charging. I've checked all fuses and connections. When the engine is running, it's running as if a load has been lifted, since the alternator isn't charging. I'll take it in for a load test when the shops and auto stores open tomorrow. And yes, unfortunately on the load thing. Being honest when I got the car a few years ago, it didn't have changes to loads. Then when the alternator went out, every replacement since allows for a drop when the car has full electrical load. Is there a chance that these alternators are coming with the wrong pully size?

[Oldblueaccord]

Did you every unhook your amp for the time being?


I bet your amp draw was 60 amps or more when it blew if your idle jumped up. I think your just drawing to much current at once.

I might be confusing your case but did you run a large wire from the back of the alt lug directly to the battery last time? that will jump around of bad connections etc. under the dash etc.


Keep thinking of all the scenarios that are making your amp draw high and eliminate them one by one.

EDIT: I followed your other post all on the same subject, You still have bad wires, grounds some place.

Quote:
Thank you so much for this info. I will look into it. Yeah both the fans work. But they draw the whole car down, is that normal?

End quote:

I would look again 1. at your choke heater 2. again at the large white wire to yur fuse box and again 3.at the wiring going to your fans and again 4. unplug your stereo amp for the time being.


wp

[Oldblueaccord]

all the battery does is start the car and provide power if the alternator quits,the entire car runs off of the alternator, it's the most common misconception in automotive wiring, everyone thinks a bigger battery will fix all kinds of stuff, when the power to run everything comes from the alternator. You don't have a short,trust me, I've been working on car electrical stuff since I was a little kid, you have an issue with a ground, a bad connection, or the alternator isn't producing the rated output it's supposed to. there should be a strap from the transmission to the body, as well as some other grounds, undo those and clean the mounting surfaces and reinstall them. the ground strap from the transmission to the body isn't very good, I would buy a premade battery cable with an eyelet on each end, and replace that. check your battery terminals, if they are bad, the alternator will use a lot of it's output trying to charge a badly drained battery, this will also toast your alternator, it's not made to do that, it's supposed to replace the charge from starting the car, and that's it. The lower the battery voltage, the more current is going into it trying to charge it, a battery close to 12 volts,isn't using much charge current,vs a battery much lower. Take the car to an auto parts store, etc, who can measure charging current, have them check the actual output of the alternator while it's heavily loaded I'll bet the current is way down.

quote
the alternator will use a lot of it's output trying to charge a badly drained battery, this will also toast your alternator, it's not made to do that,

end quote

everyone thinks a bigger battery will fix all kinds of stuff, when the power to run everything comes from the alternator.



you are contradicting yourself. I understand your trying to help and its appreciated.

in a high load situation its better to have a large battery(larger capacity) or possible multiple batteries. AKA a Diesel truck for instance has multiply batteries. Or if you use an electric winch on a Jeep two batteries are better than one.

wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

Did you every unhook your amp for the time being?


I bet your amp draw was 60 amps or more when it blew if your idle jumped up. I think your just drawing to much current at once.

I might be confusing your case but did you run a large wire from the back of the alt lug directly to the battery last time? that will jump around of bad connections etc. under the dash etc.


Keep thinking of all the scenarios that are making your amp draw high and eliminate them one by one.

EDIT: I followed your other post all on the same subject, You still have bad wires, grounds some place.

Quote:
Thank you so much for this info. I will look into it. Yeah both the fans work. But they draw the whole car down, is that normal?

End quote:

I would look again 1. at your choke heater 2. again at the large white wire to yur fuse box and again 3.at the wiring going to your fans and again 4. unplug your stereo amp for the time being.


wp

Oddly enough, my amp WAS off. My stereo was swtiched into standby and the signal wire has no power, thus the amp is off. This one only draws 30 amps and it is dual fused. I had my fan on high and the AC on, that's IT.

Like I said before, is reading a ground on that large gauge blue/black stripe wire normal? I would encourage anyone who could see if the same wire (under passenger side dash) is grounding out on their cars too. It's associated with the fan on high and the ground doesn't go away when I disconnect anything associated with it (motor, fans, blower resistor, temp switch). I will test to ground on the white wire, but I know my choke heater isn't shorting out. I replaced it, and I tested it again last night and it didn't read a short. I will keep my amp off the car until I fix this and pull my stereo plug. I bet unhealthy doeses of voltage is unhealthy for anything in my car.

[hondaaccorddrew]

quote
the alternator will use a lot of it's output trying to charge a badly drained battery, this will also toast your alternator, it's not made to do that,

end quote

everyone thinks a bigger battery will fix all kinds of stuff, when the power to run everything comes from the alternator.



you are contradicting yourself. I understand your trying to help and its appreciated.

in a high load situation its better to have a large battery(larger capacity) or possible multiple batteries. AKA a Diesel truck for instance has multiply batteries. Or if you use an electric winch on a Jeep two batteries are better than one.

wp

Unfortunately for this situation though, if it is cause of overload, the alternator is only 60 amps. If it takes 400 out of a deep cycle battery to start it, that's a lot it has to charge back up, not including other factors. Like having the headlights on, etc.

[Oldblueaccord]

I have been tracing a ground that starts in my fuse box, and that the wire grounding out was blue w/black stripe. In another post, I discussed finding it and that it leads to the engine cooling fans. Here's the issue. On the continuity test, the meter beeps steady when checking the disconnected terminals on both fans. Fan one has .002 ohms grounding to postive, and fan 2 has .004. Both fans work, but I do not wanna blow another alternator cause it's generating on a grounded connection. When I disconnect them, the fault to ground disappears from the wire and the fuse box. What is the resistance on the fan motor supposed to be? Is this normal or are they trash? They are $150 each... so... any help is appreciated!


I had one fan I pulled from a junkyard I think it works but I ohmed it out on the two pins 1.1 ohms. I don t think that means anything.

wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

My local junkyard got rid of all their early model Honda's. The nearest one is 100 miles from me.

[Oldblueaccord]

Unfortunately for this situation though, if it is cause of overload, the alternator is only 60 amps. If it takes 400 out of a deep cycle battery to start it, that's a lot it has to charge back up, not including other factors. Like having the headlights on, etc.

That battery rating is by the hour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery


I doubt your car starter runs more than 90 amps. I'll check mine if I can con the wife into helping me.

I'm am not saying your amp draw is normal there something wrong somewhere in the system.


wp

[lostforawhile]

quote
the alternator will use a lot of it's output trying to charge a badly drained battery, this will also toast your alternator, it's not made to do that,

end quote

everyone thinks a bigger battery will fix all kinds of stuff, when the power to run everything comes from the alternator.



you are contradicting yourself. I understand your trying to help and its appreciated.

in a high load situation its better to have a large battery(larger capacity) or possible multiple batteries. AKA a Diesel truck for instance has multiply batteries. Or if you use an electric winch on a Jeep two batteries are better than one.

wpin this situation I don't think two batteries are needed, if he's needing to use two batteries for the amp or something, he needs to look into something like the legend alternator upgrade, if you are pulling more current on a regular basis then the alternator can produce, you are going to have issues, the proper way to fix that situation is a higher amp alternator, even if you are pulling near the rated output of the factory alternator all the time, it's going to cause the alternator to heat up and shorten it's life. A higher output alternator running the maximum of the factory one, is still not running at maximum power and will run cooler

[hondaaccorddrew]

in this situation I don't think two batteries are needed, if he's needing to use two batteries for the amp or something, he needs to look into something like the legend alternator upgrade, if you are pulling more current on a regular basis then the alternator can produce, you are going to have issues, the proper way to fix that situation is a higher amp alternator, even if you are pulling near the rated output of the factory alternator all the time, it's going to cause the alternator to heat up and shorten it's life. A higher output alternator running the maximum of the factory one, is still not running at maximum power and will run cooler

Well said, my friend. However, I do not have several hundred dollars for this said alternator, so I guess I am stuck saving up, if the transmission doesn't sh*t on me first. Btw, I am not a "everyone hears my music through the neighborhood" type of guy, I just wanted it to sound good. So I put in a 30 amp sound amplifier to run a small sub. It accompanies the music, doesn't overpower. I do not run it at it's full capacity. So it probably doesn't pull more than 15, max. Everything else is stock in the car except the stereo and some LED's I placed in the dash. They use less power anyway.

[lostforawhile]

Well said, my friend. However, I do not have several hundred dollars for this said alternator, so I guess I am stuck saving up, if the transmission doesn't sh*t on me first. Btw, I am not a "everyone hears my music through the neighborhood" type of guy, I just wanted it to sound good. So I put in a 30 amp sound amplifier to run a small sub. It accompanies the music, doesn't overpower. I do not run it at it's full capacity. So it probably doesn't pull more than 15, max. Everything else is stock in the car except the stereo and some LED's I placed in the dash. They use less power anyway.

you said something about running an amp that pulls 30 amps? thats half the capacity of the alternator, if you have the ac running and defroster on and blower going, it's already close to being maxed out, the legend alternator upgrade is done from junkyard parts, There is a thread somewhere on here, but it's something you can do on the cheap,and do it in a weekend. have you had the alternator output test done yet? most places will do it for free have you unbolted and checked all the ground connections yet? where a ground attaches to the body, unbolt it and use some sandpaper to sand the connection point to bare metal, bolt it back on and cover the connection with petroleum jelly,especially make sure the ground strap from engine to body is good, it often looks fine but isn't. The engine is insulated by the motor mounts, so that connection has to be good

[2drSE-i]

Battery will not cause any issues while running, unless there is a problem elsewhere. Rule this guy out.

Alternator was made to run all of these accessories at once. If you can upgrade it to compensate for old wiring and old accessories, great!

I'm more than willing to bet you have a bad ground or other wiring problem elsewhere in the car.

Turn on each accessory and measure the amp draw to figure out what's causing all of the problems. If none of them seem over the top, systematically replace your grounds.

[hondaaccorddrew]

you said something about running an amp that pulls 30 amps? thats half the capacity of the alternator, if you have the ac running and defroster on and blower going, it's already close to being maxed out, the legend alternator upgrade is done from junkyard parts, There is a thread somewhere on here, but it's something you can do on the cheap,and do it in a weekend. have you had the alternator output test done yet? most places will do it for free have you unbolted and checked all the ground connections yet? where a ground attaches to the body, unbolt it and use some sandpaper to sand the connection point to bare metal, bolt it back on and cover the connection with petroleum jelly,especially make sure the ground strap from engine to body is good, it often looks fine but isn't. The engine is insulated by the motor mounts, so that connection has to be good

That does make sense. I see high output alternators advertised for $180 or so on the web, they claim to fit the 3rd gen accord carbed or FI without modification of the brackets. Is it cheaper than that? Just tell me what I may need or lead me to the post and I will look into it. I took the alternator off and had it tested. It failed horribly. It was even sqeaking and clunking when I turned it by hand. I also discovered that my drivers side cooling fan was reluctant to turn, so that's also toasted.

[hondaaccorddrew]

Battery will not cause any issues while running, unless there is a problem elsewhere. Rule this guy out.

Alternator was made to run all of these accessories at once. If you can upgrade it to compensate for old wiring and old accessories, great!

I'm more than willing to bet you have a bad ground or other wiring problem elsewhere in the car.

Turn on each accessory and measure the amp draw to figure out what's causing all of the problems. If none of them seem over the top, systematically replace your grounds.

All of them seem over the top when the headlights are on at night at idle, including the brake lights. I am redoing my positive wires and my grounds. The ones to the alternator, starter, battery and fuse box. 4 gauge. Is that good enough or should I go to larger?

[2drSE-i]

All of them seem over the top when the headlights are on at night at idle, including the brake lights. I am redoing my positive wires and my grounds. The ones to the alternator, starter, battery and fuse box. 4 gauge. Is that good enough or should I go to larger?

4 should be fine. Have you inspected the headlight wiring? Under the fuse-box as well? I'm spit-balling here.

[hondaaccorddrew]

4 should be fine. Have you inspected the headlight wiring? Under the fuse-box as well? I'm spit-balling here.

Yeah, everything is great. No pinching, burning, peeling, etc. The fuse box is clean and the connections underneath are still packed with grease from the factory. I can tell that someone has worked at the wiring under the wheel before, but I have no idea what was done. It's a jumbled mess looks like Honda would have done a better job. Except for ripping the dash board off, I have checked all the wiring, even under the carpet and in the fenders.

[Dr_Snooz]

FWIW, I went to the two auto stores here in town and had each run their little test. I got two different diagnoses for a charging problem and both were wrong. When the issue comes up again, I'll be buying my own diagnostic tools. I also had several tests done on the battery, which ended up being the problem. It passed every test of theirs with flying colors. I was preparing to buy a new battery outright when it finally failed a test and I got a warranty replacement. All that to say, I don't think those auto store tests are anything more than a novelty.

[lostforawhile]

That does make sense. I see high output alternators advertised for $180 or so on the web, they claim to fit the 3rd gen accord carbed or FI without modification of the brackets. Is it cheaper than that? Just tell me what I may need or lead me to the post and I will look into it. I took the alternator off and had it tested. It failed horribly. It was even sqeaking and clunking when I turned it by hand. I also discovered that my drivers side cooling fan was reluctant to turn, so that's also toasted.

I can't seem to find the thread, anyone? I know it's a stock legend alternator, you upgrade the wire from the back of the alternator to the battery,which you've already done, 4 gauge is fine, I would have said 6, actually it should have been 6 factory, but the extra capacity in the four is a good thing., The main issue with the legend is some minor modifications to the brackets then it bolts right in. It's not difficult

[lostforawhile]

If I remember correctly, with the AC running and clutch engaged, blower on of course, rear defroster on,wipers, and lights it was pulling right about 57 amps, this is a realistic condition if it's raining and you are trying to defrost the windows. The ac clutch alone pulls a bunch of amps. The alternator really is a little undersize for a car with ac and defroster,add an aftermarket stereo, and amp, and you can see the issue, Also while you are pulling near maximum current, and are idling, the alternator really isn't going to produce full current. does your idle kick up when the ac is on? it's supposed to to help with this issue. and don't forget while all that's running, both the radiator fan and condenser fan are both running too. Those two pull close to 25 amps

[ecogabriel]

When I posted earlier about getting my lights dimmer when pressing the brake pedal I did not mean the slight drop pretty much everybody here has reported; what I meant was a sharp drop like you headlights have candles inside. The culprit was the battery's ground cable; I have had no problems after installing another ground cable. You would need running a ground cable from the batt to the engine, and another from the engine to the body; lost wrote about it earlier on.

[lostforawhile]

When I posted earlier about getting my lights dimmer when pressing the brake pedal I did not mean the slight drop pretty much everybody here has reported; what I meant was a sharp drop like you headlights have candles inside. The culprit was the battery's ground cable; I have had no problems after installing another ground cable. You would need running a ground cable from the batt to the engine, and another from the engine to the body; lost wrote about it earlier on.

yea that braided POS needs to go, you can get a 4 gauge cable with crimped ends for under five bucks at walmart. it really doesn't matter where you connect it,as long as one end is solidly bolted to the block somewhere, or to something solidly bolted to the block, and the other end to a solid body bolt

[lostforawhile]

legend alternator install notes

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51149

[hondaaccorddrew]

Wow, that sounds interesting. I want it! So, I was a little confused on the top bracket part, how do you get it to mount and keep tension? What about the 3 prong plug at the back? And this is from a 95 Acura Legend?

[hondaaccorddrew]

FWIW, I went to the two auto stores here in town and had each run their little test. I got two different diagnoses for a charging problem and both were wrong. When the issue comes up again, I'll be buying my own diagnostic tools. I also had several tests done on the battery, which ended up being the problem. It passed every test of theirs with flying colors. I was preparing to buy a new battery outright when it finally failed a test and I got a warranty replacement. All that to say, I don't think those auto store tests are anything more than a novelty.

Yeah when I went to the one this morning, they couldn't even load test it. Could only test the alternator's output voltage. Hell, I can do that with my multi-meter. Useless.

[Dr_Snooz]

I know this is my typical rant, but where are you buying your alternators from? I'm not sure what you could do to a good alternator that would make the bearings go bad in a few days. I suspect you are getting garbage alternators. If you are buying from O'Reilly, Autozone, whatever big name store, then it wouldn't be unheard of to go through a large number of alternators with each ending in a spectacular fireworks display. I would venture that this is your single biggest problem. Buy a good alternator like a Denso or Beck/Arnley from RockAuto.com.

Also, the more load you put on an electric motor, the more amperage it will draw. If your cooling fan motor is locked, then it could be creating an enormous draw on the alternator. If it turns hard, replace it. However, a locked cooling fan would tend to blow fuses and burn up wires, not blow up alternators.

In general, whenever I hear, "big stereo" and "electrical problems" in any context, I put them together. Especially if there's a haywire mess under the dash, you should view the stereo with some suspicion. If it were my car, I would disconnect everything stereo related until you get the situation under control. Slowly re-connect one piece at a time until you get a big explosion. That will tell you where your problem is.

Grounds are always a good thing to check, but usually when people have bad grounds around here, they tend to have a lot of small, inexplicable, electrical gremlins, like dimming lights and flickering stereos. Alternator explosions are a lot less likely in that situation.

I know you say you are going through alternators, but how are you determining that? Is it just from a light on the dash or how exactly? What are your other symptoms?

[hondaaccorddrew]

I know this is my typical rant, but where are you buying your alternators from? I'm not sure what you could do to a good alternator that would make the bearings go bad in a few days. I suspect you are getting garbage alternators. If you are buying from O'Reilly, Autozone, whatever big name store, then it wouldn't be unheard of to go through a large number of alternators with each ending in a spectacular fireworks display. I would venture that this is your single biggest problem. Buy a good alternator like a Denso or Beck/Arnley from RockAuto.com.

Also, the more load you put on an electric motor, the more amperage it will draw. If your cooling fan motor is locked, then it could be creating an enormous draw on the alternator. If it turns hard, replace it. However, a locked cooling fan would tend to blow fuses and burn up wires, not blow up alternators.

In general, whenever I hear, "big stereo" and "electrical problems" in any context, I put them together. Especially if there's a haywire mess under the dash, you should view the stereo with some suspicion. If it were my car, I would disconnect everything stereo related until you get the situation under control. Slowly re-connect one piece at a time until you get a big explosion. That will tell you where your problem is.

Grounds are always a good thing to check, but usually when people have bad grounds around here, they tend to have a lot of small, inexplicable, electrical gremlins, like dimming lights and flickering stereos. Alternator explosions are a lot less likely in that situation.

I know you say you are going through alternators, but how are you determining that? Is it just from a light on the dash or how exactly? What are your other symptoms?

Well as of now, NOTHING is hooked up to the car, thye battery is undone. I have unplugged the wiring harness on the stereo and the wire to the amp. I'll go through my history of alternators with you. My first one blew out when I started the car in June of 2009, a few months after I got it. There were no symptoms. I started the car, it went to high idle, I heard a clink, and that was it. Replaced it with an O'Reilly alternator with a two year warranty. Two years later, right after the warranty expired, the other one went out partially. It would still charge, but it wouldn't supply power to the choke heater. Turns out the choke heater shorted and toasted it. I learned that with the help of lostforawhile when I toasted my replacement alternator in 30 mins. After fixing the short, I replaced it with my most recently fried one. This one went out like the first did. Except I was accelerating. The engine reved quite high because of the change in load (or no load on the belts). Keep in mind my stereo was in STANDBY, the amp wasn't getting it's signal, so it was switched off. When in standby, the screen just shows the time. All my accesories with an overload protection turned off, (stereo, fan, gagues, AC buttons) for about 5 seconds. When it all came back on, the system acted like it'd just started up. The seat belt light was beeping, the door lights came on then off like startup, the oil light came on and went away (since the engine was already on) and the battery light remained on. I drove home without an alternator. It's nice that even these older components have an overload protection that cuts all power till it goes away. All of these have been replaced with Ultima alternators from O'Reilly. My new replacement is Autolite, I have never had experience with these, but it's also a reman with lifetime.

[Oldblueaccord]

I know my blower fan pulls 12.5 amps full speed warmed up. It's original so I would guess its on the high side.

I guess good luck. I hope it works out for you.

Ill try and check the full load and start amp draw as well but without you being able to test yours it won't help much.



wp

[lostforawhile]

Well as of now, NOTHING is hooked up to the car, thye battery is undone. I have unplugged the wiring harness on the stereo and the wire to the amp. I'll go through my history of alternators with you. My first one blew out when I started the car in June of 2009, a few months after I got it. There were no symptoms. I started the car, it went to high idle, I heard a clink, and that was it. Replaced it with an O'Reilly alternator with a two year warranty. Two years later, right after the warranty expired, the other one went out partially. It would still charge, but it wouldn't supply power to the choke heater. Turns out the choke heater shorted and toasted it. I learned that with the help of lostforawhile when I toasted my replacement alternator in 30 mins. After fixing the short, I replaced it with my most recently fried one. This one went out like the first did. Except I was accelerating. The engine reved quite high because of the change in load (or no load on the belts). Keep in mind my stereo was in STANDBY, the amp wasn't getting it's signal, so it was switched off. When in standby, the screen just shows the time. All my accesories with an overload protection turned off, (stereo, fan, gagues, AC buttons) for about 5 seconds. When it all came back on, the system acted like it'd just started up. The seat belt light was beeping, the door lights came on then off like startup, the oil light came on and went away (since the engine was already on) and the battery light remained on. I drove home without an alternator. It's nice that even these older components have an overload protection that cuts all power till it goes away. All of these have been replaced with Ultima alternators from O'Reilly. My new replacement is Autolite, I have never had experience with these, but it's also a reman with lifetime.
try to get a higher end nappa one,they have the standard part and the more expensive part, i went through a bunch of them until I got one, I ended up selling it to someone on here years later still good, I switched to a civic alternator so I could put the alternator where the AC compressor was, or I would still have it

[ecogabriel]

try to get a higher end nappa one,they have the standard part and the more expensive part, i went through a bunch of them until I got one, I ended up selling it to someone on here years later still good, I switched to a civic alternator so I could put the alternator where the AC compressor was, or I would still have it

That would be me I guess.... and the alternator with the purple paint band still working good (I did not remove the paint... quite lazy). I replaced the battery ground though.

MY alternator went up in smoke literally: started the car, smell something strange, turned it off. Pop hood open, look at the thing... smelled but nothing looked strange. Started again, and there we go the alt. smoking (it was a Honda reman.).

[lostforawhile]

That would be me I guess.... and the alternator with the purple paint band still working good (I did not remove the paint... quite lazy). I replaced the battery ground though.

MY alternator went up in smoke literally: started the car, smell something strange, turned it off. Pop hood open, look at the thing... smelled but nothing looked strange. Started again, and there we go the alt. smoking (it was a Honda reman.).

that was a good alternator I think I paid around 130 or so for it, it never let me down. the purple can never be removed,if removed it grows back

[Dr_Snooz]

I heard a clink, and that was it......It would still charge, but it wouldn't supply power to the choke heater.....All my accesories with an overload protection turned off, (stereo, fan, gagues, AC buttons) for about 5 seconds. When it all came back on, the system acted like it'd just started up. The seat belt light was beeping, the door lights came on then off like startup, the oil light came on and went away (since the engine was already on) and the battery light remained on. I drove home without an alternator.

I guess I'm asking how you are diagnosing these failed alternators. If I hear a clink in my engine bay, that doesn't generally lead me to believe I've lost an alternator. What other diagnostics did you do to determine that the alternator was bad? Generally, a bad alternator will give you a battery light on the dash. You confirm it by testing output voltage and taking the alternator in for a load test. Again, if my choke heater wasn't working, a bad alternator wouldn't be my first thought. I'm just wondering if the alternators are being blamed for more general wiring issues. Have you considered installing a voltmeter in the dash so you can keep an eye on what's happening with the electrical system?

[lostforawhile]

I guess I'm asking how you are diagnosing these failed alternators. If I hear a clink in my engine bay, that doesn't generally lead me to believe I've lost an alternator. What other diagnostics did you do to determine that the alternator was bad? Generally, a bad alternator will give you a battery light on the dash. You confirm it by testing output voltage and taking the alternator in for a load test. Again, if my choke heater wasn't working, a bad alternator wouldn't be my first thought. I'm just wondering if the alternators are being blamed for more general wiring issues. Have you considered installing a voltmeter in the dash so you can keep an eye on what's happening with the electrical system?

I know he had a short in a choke coil, that would take out the voltage regulator,since it provides the 12 volts out to operate it,but I'm not sure on the other stuff yet

[hondaaccorddrew]

I guess I'm asking how you are diagnosing these failed alternators. If I hear a clink in my engine bay, that doesn't generally lead me to believe I've lost an alternator. What other diagnostics did you do to determine that the alternator was bad? Generally, a bad alternator will give you a battery light on the dash. You confirm it by testing output voltage and taking the alternator in for a load test. Again, if my choke heater wasn't working, a bad alternator wouldn't be my first thought. I'm just wondering if the alternators are being blamed for more general wiring issues. Have you considered installing a voltmeter in the dash so you can keep an eye on what's happening with the electrical system?

Well, the choke heater shorted out to ground, and since it connects directly to the pigtail on the alternator, it toasted the replacement in 30 seconds. I posted about it a few months ago and I got diagnostic help from lostforawhile and determined the choke heater was useless, also learned a thing or two about how the diagnostic system works with the battery light. The other alternator would also cause the battery lamp to flicker and come on and off with acceleration. Since I have gotten so good at removing them, I take them off once I get a light and have them tested. The machine that tests them checks for grounds, checks the diodes, load tests it at variable RMP, and does a voltage check under the load. They are always failing when I take them in. I have them do the same thing to the replacement to make sure it works before I do the work of putting it in. I pull it through the passenger side :D I would love to have a voltmeter in the dash! Never looked into how much they cost. I also wouldn't wanna damage anything in the dash to put it in, I like to keep her looking as much stock as possible. My interior looks amazing still.

[hondaaccorddrew]

try to get a higher end nappa one,they have the standard part and the more expensive part, i went through a bunch of them until I got one, I ended up selling it to someone on here years later still good, I switched to a civic alternator so I could put the alternator where the AC compressor was, or I would still have it


That would be me I guess.... and the alternator with the purple paint band still working good (I did not remove the paint... quite lazy). I replaced the battery ground though.

MY alternator went up in smoke literally: started the car, smell something strange, turned it off. Pop hood open, look at the thing... smelled but nothing looked strange. Started again, and there we go the alt. smoking (it was a Honda reman.).


that was a good alternator I think I paid around 130 or so for it, it never let me down. the purple can never be removed,if removed it grows back

This alternator sounds like a GREAT idea guys, so does the Legend alternator project. If I fry this one, I have decided that I will do this, or get the Napa one as suggested. I have heard they have great parts, you get what you pay for, and they aren't cheap. Which one do you guys recommend?

[hondaaccorddrew]

I know my blower fan pulls 12.5 amps full speed warmed up. It's original so I would guess its on the high side.

I guess good luck. I hope it works out for you.

Ill try and check the full load and start amp draw as well but without you being able to test yours it won't help much.



wp

I should pick up a meter that tests current up to at least 30 amps. It'd be helpful. I took my fan motor to the local parts store and they couldn't find anything. The guy had a bright idea to spray the holes up with electronics cleaner, shake it around, and dump it out. We did it in the parking lot, and you wouldn't believe how much shit came out of it. It was black like a horrible oil change. Took it home, hooked it up to a 12v power supply, and it worked! I am sure it's not as good as a new one, but I hope it gets me by so I can save up to replace it.

[lostforawhile]

This alternator sounds like a GREAT idea guys, so does the Legend alternator project. If I fry this one, I have decided that I will do this, or get the Napa one as suggested. I have heard they have great parts, you get what you pay for, and they aren't cheap. Which one do you guys recommend?

you have several options you can do the upgrade with a new alternator or a honda one from the yard, do you have any automotive electrical places near you? they can often rebuild an alternator to a much better standard then most big box stores sell

[hondaaccorddrew]

you have several options you can do the upgrade with a new alternator or a honda one from the yard, do you have any automotive electrical places near you? they can often rebuild an alternator to a much better standard then most big box stores sell

About a dozen or so yeah, will be worth looking into. They can also rebuild the legend alt if I can find a junk one and it doesn't work.

[ecogabriel]

you have several options you can do the upgrade with a new alternator or a honda one from the yard, do you have any automotive electrical places near you? they can often rebuild an alternator to a much better standard then most big box stores sell

x2.

At least they would tell you what went wrong with it, which may be a clue if a problem in the wiring exists.

[Oldblueaccord]

I know my blower fan pulls 12.5 amps full speed warmed up. It's original so I would guess its on the high side.

I guess good luck. I hope it works out for you.

Ill try and check the full load and start amp draw as well but without you being able to test yours it won't help much.



wp

OK heres what I have.

Battery at rest 12.78 volts this is after I drove home from work 28 miles.

Started up and got 12.76V with a -3 amp draw at just under 1000 rpms on the stock tach.. Not real happy with this.

Turned on everything I could lights (high) AC both fans,blower fan on full, rear defrost (it works) and got 12.26 V plus charging read 21 amps. Revving it up didnt seem to help.

After I shut off it went to 10 amps charge and 13.7 volts. This is a reman oreillys alt about 6 months old.



Turned off ignition off your looking at 45 amps full load old stuff old car old wires.


wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

OK heres what I have.

Battery at rest 12.78 volts this is after I drove home from work 28 miles.

Started up and got 12.76V with a -3 amp draw at just under 1000 rpms on the stock tach.. Not real happy with this.

Turned on everything I could lights (high) AC both fans,blower fan on full, rear defrost (it works) and got 12.26 V plus charging read 21 amps. Revving it up didnt seem to help.

After I shut off it went to 10 amps charge and 13.7 volts. This is a reman oreillys alt about 6 months old.



Turned off ignition off your looking at 45 amps full load old stuff old car old wires.


wp

Hmmm. I usually get around 14.2 volts at idle. AC and fans come in, 13.7. Everything including AC, defrost, lights, brake lights, I get 12.3 and I do not seem to have enough current to stop everything from dimming. Battery voltage when off is 13.1 or so. Have you upgraded any wiring before or is this with stock? I am hoping the lather wiring changes something. Oh, btw. Does the fuse box need the alternator input or just the battery? I am thinking of running the 4 gauge wire directly to the battery.

[lostforawhile]

Just connect the alternator to the starter lug

[hondaaccorddrew]

Alright, I got the new alternator installed. And I did new grounds, new posts, and a new transfer cable from the alternator to the battery, AND I kept the old one connected to the fusebox, put the new one on the battery. The old one did not ground out. With that said... the problem is WORSE! Started it up, got 14.20 volts. Turned on EVERYTHING and it was at 11.02. Turned everything off, and realized that there isn't even enough current to power the AC fans without the engine at 2,000 RPM. With just the AC on, everything else off, it sounds like the car is running on battery power. If you kick it up to 1,500, it starts to pick up, at 2,000 it sounds like it should. 15 mins in and you could smell the alternator heating up through the AC vents, since that I have refused to start the car back up. Something is still very wrong, and I would hate to have to junk this car if it rules the whole electrical system is shit.

[Oldblueaccord]

its one of those things drawing to much amps I think. Just going to have to unplug stuff until you figure it out.

EDIT unhook the fans and run the AC see if it still does it since the fans originally seemed bad.


wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

its one of those things drawing to much amps I think. Just going to have to unplug stuff until you figure it out.

EDIT unhook the fans and run the AC see if it still does it since the fans originally seemed bad.


wp

Okay. Will do. Whatever it is, it's doing it without blowing fuses and with the accessories off. What is not fused on the car?

[lostforawhile]

Okay. Will do. Whatever it is, it's doing it without blowing fuses and with the accessories off. What is not fused on the car?

Everything is fused try running a wire from the alternator lug to the battery and disconnect the original, this is very strange age and condition of battery

[Oldblueaccord]

Okay. Will do. Whatever it is, it's doing it without blowing fuses and with the accessories off. What is not fused on the car?

The blower motor is fused for like 80 amps off one of the mains,pretty sure. if its bad it will pull alot and it can melt the plug under the dash mine has. I ran an inline fuse to it for 15 amps but it will pull 12.5 full speed hot.


wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

Everything is fused try running a wire from the alternator lug to the battery and disconnect the original, this is very strange age and condition of battery

Meaning I should try a different battery? This one is quite new but it could be bad.

[hondaaccorddrew]

The blower motor is fused for like 80 amps off one of the mains,pretty sure. if its bad it will pull alot and it can melt the plug under the dash mine has. I ran an inline fuse to it for 15 amps but it will pull 12.5 full speed hot.


wp

My blower motor was replaced before the car was mine. The motor has
2007 stamped on it for the year of manufacture. This 70 amp fuse has the short to ground on it, the one for the blue/black stripe wire shorting to ground. Is it possible for the ignition to short to ground? I would imagine it's hooked to the ignition to allow power when it's in the on position only.

[Oldblueaccord]

at this point anything is possible. there should be a link to the manual at the top of the page look thru the electrical diagram and trace out each circuit.


wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

at this point anything is possible. there should be a link to the manual at the top of the page look thru the electrical diagram and trace out each circuit.


wp

I already have the manual, this is going to be FUN. There are a few hundred circuits to look over, but I guess I have no choice. Time to rip the whole electrical system apart.

[Oldblueaccord]

This 70 amp fuse has the short to ground on it, the one for the blue/black stripe wire shorting to ground


sounds like your on you way.

wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

Any one else have any ideas or suggestions that could help along this journey of discovery?

[lostforawhile]

The blower motor is fused for like 80 amps off one of the mains,pretty sure. if its bad it will pull alot and it can melt the plug under the dash mine has. I ran an inline fuse to it for 15 amps but it will pull 12.5 full speed hot.


wpnothing is fused for 80 amps, the entire fuse box has a 70 amp fusible link from the battery itself. if you are talking about the heater blower,its just a regular fuse, if you are talking about the fans under the hood,they run off a 30 amp fuse in the underhood fuse box, the fan relay is also in there. they recieve 12 volt power from the ignition but thats only to switch the relay coil

[Oldblueaccord]

Where is this blower fuse please call it out if you would I could not find it.


wp

[Dr_Snooz]

First, when you have an amp draw problem, the first thing that happens is that a fuse blows. If the fuse doesn't blow for some reason, then you will have melted wires, connectors and a horrible stink. Also, the component itself might smoke and eventually burn up and catch fire. It would be very, very unusual for an alt to burn up because of a component drawing too much amperage. A lot of other stuff would happen first. Also, you'd need an amp draw in excess of 60 amps to burn up the alt and there are only a few wires in the car big enough to support that much current without catching fire. So I think spending a lot of time tip-toeing through all the wiring is going to be fruitless.

Second, you have three problems that I can see from reading the thread. A.) You have alternators that fizzle out on a fairly regular basis. B.) You have some interesting electrical phenomena happening inside the cabin. C.) Right now, you have an alternator that is putting out too little voltage. We've been conflating these throughout the thread, but they might all be separate issues in themselves. More specifically, let's work on the one issue we are sure you have right now (low voltage) and see where that takes us. We'll worry about the other issues later.

There is one circuit in the car that isn't fused and that's the wire that goes to charge the battery. If the battery isn't up to snuff, it can suck up to 40 amps trying to charge itself. If you've deeply discharged it one time, it can be sulfated and need replacement. So I would take a long hard look at the battery. I would probably buy a battery load tester from Harbor Freight to test it also, instead of relying on free tests at the store. I would also buy a proper ammeter so I could see what my amp draws really are under various conditions. A good ammeter will cost you some money, unfortunately. It's great to try to figure this stuff out with the tools you do have, but eventually, if you want to be successful, you have to go out and buy the tools you need.

So there is one circuit that is not fused and also one circuit where the fuse has likely been changed from a stock configuration: the stereo circuit. So I would also take a very close look at the stereo circuit. If it were my car, I would drive with the entire circuit unpowered (pull the fuse) to see if the alternator acts up. If you go for a year with no alternators issues, then you can be fairly confident that your problem is with the stereo wiring.

I know you just installed a new alternator, but are we still working with O'Reilly/Advance/Autozone alternators here? I don't trust those any further than I can throw them. Buy a good alternator and see if you don't get better charging.

Here's some additional reading on the topic that you might want to go through.

http://napaproseries.com/This-the-3rd-one-burn-up-why

http://napaproseries.com/YOUR-ALTERNATOR-WON-T-CHARGE

http://napaproseries.com/Lamp-On-Bad-Alternator

Finally, there are a series of charging system diagnostics in chapter 24 of the Honda manual (http://honda.roadpwnage.com/manuals/pages/usdm-accord-1989-full.php) and I would definitely go through all of them in their entirety before doing anything else. You'll probably need to buy some more tools to do them, however.

Keep us posted on your results.

[hondaaccorddrew]

Where is this blower fuse please call it out if you would I could not find it.


wp

I am with you on this one. It's not labled in the system either. After pulling the 70 amp, it cuts off the blower.

[hondaaccorddrew]

First, when you have an amp draw problem, the first thing that happens is that a fuse blows. If the fuse doesn't blow for some reason, then you will have melted wires, connectors and a horrible stink. Also, the component itself might smoke and eventually burn up and catch fire. It would be very, very unusual for an alt to burn up because of a component drawing too much amperage. A lot of other stuff would happen first. Also, you'd need an amp draw in excess of 60 amps to burn up the alt and there are only a few wires in the car big enough to support that much current without catching fire. So I think spending a lot of time tip-toeing through all the wiring is going to be fruitless.

Second, you have three problems that I can see from reading the thread. A.) You have alternators that fizzle out on a fairly regular basis. B.) You have some interesting electrical phenomena happening inside the cabin. C.) Right now, you have an alternator that is putting out too little voltage. We've been conflating these throughout the thread, but they might all be separate issues in themselves. More specifically, let's work on the one issue we are sure you have right now (low voltage) and see where that takes us. We'll worry about the other issues later.

There is one circuit in the car that isn't fused and that's the wire that goes to charge the battery. If the battery isn't up to snuff, it can suck up to 40 amps trying to charge itself. If you've deeply discharged it one time, it can be sulfated and need replacement. So I would take a long hard look at the battery. I would probably buy a battery load tester from Harbor Freight to test it also, instead of relying on free tests at the store. I would also buy a proper ammeter so I could see what my amp draws really are under various conditions. A good ammeter will cost you some money, unfortunately. It's great to try to figure this stuff out with the tools you do have, but eventually, if you want to be successful, you have to go out and buy the tools you need.

So there is one circuit that is not fused and also one circuit where the fuse has likely been changed from a stock configuration: the stereo circuit. So I would also take a very close look at the stereo circuit. If it were my car, I would drive with the entire circuit unpowered (pull the fuse) to see if the alternator acts up. If you go for a year with no alternators issues, then you can be fairly confident that your problem is with the stereo wiring.

I know you just installed a new alternator, but are we still working with O'Reilly/Advance/Autozone alternators here? I don't trust those any further than I can throw them. Buy a good alternator and see if you don't get better charging.

Here's some additional reading on the topic that you might want to go through.

http://napaproseries.com/This-the-3rd-one-burn-up-why

http://napaproseries.com/YOUR-ALTERNATOR-WON-T-CHARGE

http://napaproseries.com/Lamp-On-Bad-Alternator

Finally, there are a series of charging system diagnostics in chapter 24 of the Honda manual (http://honda.roadpwnage.com/manuals/pages/usdm-accord-1989-full.php) and I would definitely go through all of them in their entirety before doing anything else. You'll probably need to buy some more tools to do them, however.

Keep us posted on your results.

Yeah. On the charging circuit there has been only one constant. The battery. Everything else has been changed. I think it's time to point the arrow towards the battery and see where it goes from there.

My stereo circuit is the same as factory (after looking at the electical diagram) there are no more fuses or wires added to it. It's the stock wiring with an aftermarket stereo hooked up with an adapter. The stereo has been unplugged at the main fuse since the last alternator blew. Both the stereo and the circuit in the car have the stock 10 amp fuse. The previous owner kept the factory stock radio. While I love tapes, you cannot find them anymore! I was the first one to install an aftermarket, and it has never blown a fuse on it the entire time I have had it.

Back on the battery subject, I have had a deep cycle battery in it since last summer. It was relatively new. It was up to charge. I have a special deep cycle charger for the batteries, and when it gets low, I take it out and let the charger condition it for a few hours. My first battery that came with the car was silently grounding out because the first alternator went out and I drove the car till it wouldn't start anymore on battery power. The mechanic who replaced the alternator charged it up when he did his work and I assumed this was okay. NOT. It caused my car's system to act weird. So in went the deep cycle. However, I think something was also wrong with it too. I figured since it was a deep cycle, you could charge it up from dead, but maybe not as dead as it was. It was wired in series with 2 others in a motor home that had the alternator kiss off while hauling up to a trip. The generator wouldn't f*ing start, so to survive, we killed the batteries, surprise! Anyway, back at the ranch, I think maybe I can try a new battery. Any brand recommendations? The past two were BOTH Wal-Mart. And a specific amperage to stay above?

Thanks you guys. It's good to have someone to throw some ideas around with me and get some answers. I'll be afraid to move onto a newer Honda, there may not be this good of a forum for them!

[ecogabriel]

I have a Sam's club battery in my civic since set '07. The previous battery (installed by the previous owner) was also a Sam's one and lasted 6 years, and even warned me it was dying by holding enough charge to crank the car.
The 3G has a NAPA battery since '09 (or '10) - I did not see those batteries in Sam's for our car mode years. Another NAPA battery in my wife's Camry lasted about 4 1/2 years

[Oldblueaccord]

I am with you on this one. It's not labled in the system either. After pulling the 70 amp, it cuts off the blower.

Check that plug on the blower its on the passenger side there. Mines was partially melted and the motor alone pulled 22 amps.

wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

Check that plug on the blower its on the passenger side there. Mines was partially melted and the motor alone pulled 22 amps.

wp

The motor has been recently replaced 2007. The plugs are in perfect condition. The wires do get a little hot when the motor is ran on high for a while, but no melting.

[lostforawhile]

for one thing get rid of the deep cycle it's not meant to be charged by an alternator and is hard on the alternator, the other thing is when there is a lot of electrical load, it won't charge fast enough to keep up,this also loads the alternator. there is one more unfused item,that's the starter, you could have a parasitic draw through the starter solenoid from the starter, you mentioned something about a click then an alternator failed,the starter wire is so large it could have a lot of amps flowing through it, and never get hot. go to one of those mentioned automotive electrical places, have an alternator output test done,also have them check your entire system for parasitic draw, with everything off you should be drawing milliamps. if there is a large current draw have them check the starter for it pulling amps. The click noise makes me wonder. If you were here I could have this figured out in a few minutes, but i can't hook my gear to your car over the net. first get rid of the deep cycle. Another job of the battery is to act as a load on the alternator and keep the voltage under control, a deep cycle won't do this properly, this could be the entire issue

[Dr_Snooz]

Ditto on the deep cycle. You could have a massively oversized battery in the car. Since it's been deeply discharged, it is sulfated and is likely drawing an enormous load just trying to charge. Lose it and put the right battery in the car. I'm on my third Optima now, so I'm pretty much all about buying cheap and replacing often. The Optima's are too heavy anyway. You're putting a 20# chunk of lead in the far front corner of the car. It does nothing for handling.

[lostforawhile]

Ditto on the deep cycle. You could have a massively oversized battery in the car. Since it's been deeply discharged, it is sulfated and is likely drawing an enormous load just trying to charge. Lose it and put the right battery in the car. I'm on my third Optima now, so I'm pretty much all about buying cheap and replacing often. The Optima's are too heavy anyway. You're putting a 20# chunk of lead in the far front corner of the car. It does nothing for handling.

the optimas are junk since they started making them in Mexico, there are thousands of complaints, apparently there was a huge screwup in making them and the bad ones continued to be sold and the warranties weren't honored, the hamb had a thread to optima with nothing but complaints about their batteries

[hondaaccorddrew]

for one thing get rid of the deep cycle it's not meant to be charged by an alternator and is hard on the alternator, the other thing is when there is a lot of electrical load, it won't charge fast enough to keep up,this also loads the alternator. there is one more unfused item,that's the starter, you could have a parasitic draw through the starter solenoid from the starter, you mentioned something about a click then an alternator failed,the starter wire is so large it could have a lot of amps flowing through it, and never get hot. go to one of those mentioned automotive electrical places, have an alternator output test done,also have them check your entire system for parasitic draw, with everything off you should be drawing milliamps. if there is a large current draw have them check the starter for it pulling amps. The click noise makes me wonder. If you were here I could have this figured out in a few minutes, but i can't hook my gear to your car over the net. first get rid of the deep cycle. Another job of the battery is to act as a load on the alternator and keep the voltage under control, a deep cycle won't do this properly, this could be the entire issue

I wish I had some tools like yours then, man. I passed electronics class in a local tech college. But they had tools that I DO NOT have. I am thinking on doing a load test too. Getting a meter that does ten or twenty amps and hooking it in series with the car. Making sure everything is off and the fuses are in and doing the test. I have never came out to a dead battery though. I am getting a new battery and seeing what happens. Just an idea though. Would aluminum ends on the wire hook ups instead of copper cause more resistance? The actual wire material in the wire is copper, but the terminals are aluminum.

[lostforawhile]

I wish I had some tools like yours then, man. I passed electronics class in a local tech college. But they had tools that I DO NOT have. I am thinking on doing a load test too. Getting a meter that does ten or twenty amps and hooking it in series with the car. Making sure everything is off and the fuses are in and doing the test. I have never came out to a dead battery though. I am getting a new battery and seeing what happens. Just an idea though. Would aluminum ends on the wire hook ups instead of copper cause more resistance? The actual wire material in the wire is copper, but the terminals are aluminum.

what terminals are aluminum the battery terminals? I've never even seen an aluminum battery terminal, I would think the sulfuric acid from the battery would turn them to dust quickly

[hondaaccorddrew]

what terminals are aluminum the battery terminals? I've never even seen an aluminum battery terminal, I would think the sulfuric acid from the battery would turn them to dust quickly

The new ones I put in the car. The grounds and everything have aluminum terminals on the ends, not copper.

[hondaaccorddrew]

Well, I took the battery in for load testing and it showed good. The cranking and output current was within range with the stickers on the battery. 600 cranking amps. Should i still replace it?

[lostforawhile]

The new ones I put in the car. The grounds and everything have aluminum terminals on the ends, not copper.

those need to go, aluminum will corrode and develop high resistance between the steel body and aluminum terminal, where did you even find aluminum ends are you sure they aren't just coated with something? if the battery is a deep cycle it needs to go, a deep cycle has no place in your electrical system, like I mentioned before they have electrical characteristics not compatible with an alternator

[hondaaccorddrew]

those need to go, aluminum will corrode and develop high resistance between the steel body and aluminum terminal, where did you even find aluminum ends are you sure they aren't just coated with something? if the battery is a deep cycle it needs to go, a deep cycle has no place in your electrical system, like I mentioned before they have electrical characteristics not compatible with an alternator

I am positive that they are aluminum terminals. 4ga copper wire with aluminum terminals. That's all that was at the local stores in my area. I guess I will be buying copper ends an putting them on. I will do as suggested with the battery and will keep posted with my results. Oh, and have you had with luck on engine grounds? Can it be placed somewhere else besides on with the valve cover?

[lostforawhile]

I am positive that they are aluminum terminals. 4ga copper wire with aluminum terminals. That's all that was at the local stores in my area. I guess I will be buying copper ends an putting them on. I will do as suggested with the battery and will keep posted with my results. Oh, and have you had with luck on engine grounds? Can it be placed somewhere else besides on with the valve cover?

you can put an engine ground anywhere on the block as long as it's bolted solid to the block, every store I've ever seen has normal battery terminals, even walmart carries batteries cables, they are probably cad plated steel or something, I've been doing this electrical stuff for a long time, and I've yet to see an aluminum terminal,the sulfuric acid fumes that seep up from around the terminals would just destroy it in no time

[lostforawhile]

oh for the record the blower motor fuse is fuse 22 40 amps in the under hood fuse box, dumb dumb design, every other heavy amperage circuit in the car has a relay, does the blower? nope it's pulling 40 amps straight through the key switch, how difficult would it have been to design another relay into that fuse box? the fuse is already there. the speed is controlled by switching resistors into the ground side, I know I already replaced my key switch with heavy duty relays so it's not an issue for me, but it's an easy fix and may be the reason the switch burns out on that contact

[hondaaccorddrew]

oh for the record the blower motor fuse is fuse 22 40 amps in the under hood fuse box, dumb dumb design, every other heavy amperage circuit in the car has a relay, does the blower? nope it's pulling 40 amps straight through the key switch, how difficult would it have been to design another relay into that fuse box? the fuse is already there. the speed is controlled by switching resistors into the ground side, I know I already replaced my key switch with heavy duty relays so it's not an issue for me, but it's an easy fix and may be the reason the switch burns out on that contact

Could this be causing my problem? If so, tell me how to look at these contacts to determine if they are shorting or not connecting well of you'd be so nice. The positive wire that runs the fans and the blower is the one I was tracing fault to ground on. If it connects to the ignition that would make sense. You're right, dumb design.

[hondaaccorddrew]

you can put an engine ground anywhere on the block as long as it's bolted solid to the block, every store I've ever seen has normal battery terminals, even walmart carries batteries cables, they are probably cad plated steel or something, I've been doing this electrical stuff for a long time, and I've yet to see an aluminum terminal,the sulfuric acid fumes that seep up from around the terminals would just destroy it in no time

Well. Saying you're right and the terminals are just played steel, would that cause resistance enough to make the alternator burn up?

[lostforawhile]

Well. Saying you're right and the terminals are just played steel, would that cause resistance enough to make the alternator burn up?

no not at all, plated terminals are fine, I do know running a deep cycle could, I had a couple of alternators do the no charge at idle thing too, I ended up getting a better alternator that worked right

[lostforawhile]

you would never run an aluminum electrical terminal with a steel body, the current running through it combined with two dissimilar metals would cause galvanic corrosion to eat through the body in a short time. The only aluminum terminals i've ever heard of are on extremely expensive exotic cars with aluminum frames, even then most of the ground terminals use that special compound to prevent the corrosion

[hondaaccorddrew]

no not at all, plated terminals are fine, I do know running a deep cycle could, I had a couple of alternators do the no charge at idle thing too, I ended up getting a better alternator that worked right

Okay. Well if this doesn't work, I have decieded that I am going to do the Legend upgrade and just go from there. It will put out enough current to stop popping the damn things.

[Oldblueaccord]

oh for the record the blower motor fuse is fuse 22 40 amps in the under hood fuse box, dumb dumb design, every other heavy amperage circuit in the car has a relay, does the blower? nope it's pulling 40 amps straight through the key switch, how difficult would it have been to design another relay into that fuse box? the fuse is already there. the speed is controlled by switching resistors into the ground side, I know I already replaced my key switch with heavy duty relays so it's not an issue for me, but it's an easy fix and may be the reason the switch burns out on that contact

Thank you. yeah on that size wire,16 guage im guessing not really a great idea.

wp

[Oldblueaccord]

I am positive that they are aluminum terminals. 4ga copper wire with aluminum terminals. That's all that was at the local stores in my area. I guess I will be buying copper ends an putting them on. I will do as suggested with the battery and will keep posted with my results. Oh, and have you had with luck on engine grounds? Can it be placed somewhere else besides on with the valve cover?


Should really be lead terminal ends. the metal will be very soft.


http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/epm/06073/image/4/ sorry can embed pics at work.

I think there should be two other grounds factory besides the valve cover. The valve cover alone is not enough. Follow the battery ground and see where it goes it might goto the starter hold down bolt.


Battery sounds fine so far to me. I use Optima's(yellow tops) and deep cell (starting) batteries myself no problems. Not trying to confuse anything. I think you know the problem with charging them from dead is there have low internal resistance.

wp

[Dr_Snooz]

Battery sounds fine so far to me.

I think he's working with a sulfated deep cycle battery that he salvaged from an old RV. I know people can and do use deep cycle batteries for starting. Whether that's a wise practice, I'll let you and Lost debate because I don't honestly know. My brother used a deep cycle in his Oldsmobile years ago and it seemed to be fine. What I will say is that at this stage, the battery is a big unknown. We're not sure how old it is or how it was used in its prior life. We do know that it's been deeply discharged at least once, so it is sulfated without question. If it's older and the RV sat a lot, it could be badly sulfated. A sulfated battery will draw a lot of current and never fully charge. I know that my last red top Optima was sulfated and created a low voltage situation in the Honda. I took the battery in at least four times to be charged and tested and they assured me it was fine each time. Replacing the alternator did nothing to help. Finally on the last test, the battery gave a fault of some kind and they replaced it on warranty for me. That fixed the problem. I guess a rough test of the sulfation level would be to put the battery on a charger overnight and then measure the resting voltage in the morning. Be advised, however, that my bad Optima put out 12.4-12.7v at rest, which is well within the normal range. Anyway, while I'm not necessarily worried about deep cycle batteries in general, I'm not convinced that this deep cycle is not causing his problems, especially if it's very large or heavy duty, badly sulfated and sucking up lots of current trying to charge. There are relatively cheap ($25) desulfators you can buy on eBay. I have one and it wires in parallel with the battery charger. It does seem to have helped on at least one battery. Maybe the OP wants to do that instead and see if it works. It's up to him.

If this is genuinely a current draw problem, then there should be some confirming indicators: the bad component should be getting hot, wires going to the bad component should be showing signs of stress (discoloring and/or melting) and possibly smelling, the alternator itself should be getting very hot and probably smelling or smoking. If there isn't any of this, then I would tend to suspect that the alternator itself is bad.

The only other real possibility I can think of is that the wires going to the alternator itself, or the connectors at the alternator, are corroded and causing too much resistance and heat and cooking the alternators. That's kind of a long shot though.

[2drSE-i]

I think he's working with a sulfated deep cycle battery that he salvaged from an old RV. I know people can and do use deep cycle batteries for starting. Whether that's a wise practice, I'll let you and Lost debate because I don't honestly know. My brother used a deep cycle in his Oldsmobile years ago and it seemed to be fine. What I will say is that at this stage, the battery is a big unknown. We're not sure how old it is or how it was used in its prior life. We do know that it's been deeply discharged at least once, so it is sulfated without question. If it's older and the RV sat a lot, it could be badly sulfated. A sulfated battery will draw a lot of current and never fully charge. I know that my last red top Optima was sulfated and created a low voltage situation in the Honda. I took the battery in at least four times to be charged and tested and they assured me it was fine each time. Replacing the alternator did nothing to help. Finally on the last test, the battery gave a fault of some kind and they replaced it on warranty for me. That fixed the problem. I guess a rough test of the sulfation level would be to put the battery on a charger overnight and then measure the resting voltage in the morning. Be advised, however, that my bad Optima put out 12.4-12.7v at rest, which is well within the normal range. Anyway, while I'm not necessarily worried about deep cycle batteries in general, I'm not convinced that this deep cycle is not causing his problems, especially if it's very large or heavy duty, badly sulfated and sucking up lots of current trying to charge. There are relatively cheap ($25) desulfators you can buy on eBay. I have one and it wires in parallel with the battery charger. It does seem to have helped on at least one battery. Maybe the OP wants to do that instead and see if it works. It's up to him.

99% of the time, the batteries in RVs (and boats for that matter) are dual purpose, starting/deep cycle batteries. Unless he is using a true deep cycle (IE golfcart or electric motor battery) it will be fine. As for sulfation, if it is truly sulfated, there is no getting it back. These "De-sulfators" do nothing but use ultrasound to vibrate off some of the sulfation, and all that does is knock it into the electrolyte. You'll gain some amperage back, but really not enough to make much of a difference. The only true solution to sulfation is to maintain the battery and not allow it to happen.

Also, Optima's (and other AGM or Gel batteries) will not, and cannot sulfate. They degrade over time, but sulfation is caused by the oxidation of the lead plates in a battery, which can't happen in Gel batteries because the electrolyte level can never drop.

EDIT:

I can get into proper maintenance of batteries if requested. I've become a bit of an expert in the field LOL

[hondaaccorddrew]

I think he's working with a sulfated deep cycle battery that he salvaged from an old RV. I know people can and do use deep cycle batteries for starting. Whether that's a wise practice, I'll let you and Lost debate because I don't honestly know. My brother used a deep cycle in his Oldsmobile years ago and it seemed to be fine. What I will say is that at this stage, the battery is a big unknown. We're not sure how old it is or how it was used in its prior life. We do know that it's been deeply discharged at least once, so it is sulfated without question. If it's older and the RV sat a lot, it could be badly sulfated. A sulfated battery will draw a lot of current and never fully charge. I know that my last red top Optima was sulfated and created a low voltage situation in the Honda. I took the battery in at least four times to be charged and tested and they assured me it was fine each time. Replacing the alternator did nothing to help. Finally on the last test, the battery gave a fault of some kind and they replaced it on warranty for me. That fixed the problem. I guess a rough test of the sulfation level would be to put the battery on a charger overnight and then measure the resting voltage in the morning. Be advised, however, that my bad Optima put out 12.4-12.7v at rest, which is well within the normal range. Anyway, while I'm not necessarily worried about deep cycle batteries in general, I'm not convinced that this deep cycle is not causing his problems, especially if it's very large or heavy duty, badly sulfated and sucking up lots of current trying to charge. There are relatively cheap ($25) desulfators you can buy on eBay. I have one and it wires in parallel with the battery charger. It does seem to have helped on at least one battery. Maybe the OP wants to do that instead and see if it works. It's up to him.

If this is genuinely a current draw problem, then there should be some confirming indicators: the bad component should be getting hot, wires going to the bad component should be showing signs of stress (discoloring and/or melting) and possibly smelling, the alternator itself should be getting very hot and probably smelling or smoking. If there isn't any of this, then I would tend to suspect that the alternator itself is bad.

The only other real possibility I can think of is that the wires going to the alternator itself, or the connectors at the alternator, are corroded and causing too much resistance and heat and cooking the alternators. That's kind of a long shot though.

The terminals are clean, I used light sand paper to shine them right up. As for the battery, it is two years old. But it did sit when it was dead for about 6 months, so no doubt that it is deeply sulfated. It is a start/deep cycle. I still own the motor home they came out of, all the batteries in it (3 total) have since been replaced. So I would be okay to put a new deep cycle in? They come with screw on terminals, those are handy to have. I redid my grounds, and I put a 4ga wire in addition to the stock wire from the alternator terminals. The stock is still mounted to the fuse box and the new one goes directly onto the battery using the screw terminal. The grounds were replaced also with 4ga. Being honest, when I went to start the car, it seemed to have less starting power than before I did the wiring. Everything is tight too. It seems to me that I have MORE resistance with the larger wiring than with the smaller.

[hondaaccorddrew]

Should really be lead terminal ends. the metal will be very soft.


http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/epm/06073/image/4/ sorry can embed pics at work.

I think there should be two other grounds factory besides the valve cover. The valve cover alone is not enough. Follow the battery ground and see where it goes it might goto the starter hold down bolt.


Battery sounds fine so far to me. I use Optima's(yellow tops) and deep cell (starting) batteries myself no problems. Not trying to confuse anything. I think you know the problem with charging them from dead is there have low internal resistance.

wp

The only ground I have is to the engine, transmission from the body which is connected to the battery. There is no ground on the starter.

[ecogabriel]

The only ground I have is to the engine, transmission from the body which is connected to the battery. There is no ground on the starter.

you should have another ground from the valve cover to the front of the car, close to the radiator. I added another ground from the valve cover to where the driver's side engine mount is located (there are a couple of threaded holes there that may be used)

[hondaaccorddrew]

you should have another ground from the valve cover to the front of the car, close to the radiator. I added another ground from the valve cover to where the driver's side engine mount is located (there are a couple of threaded holes there that may be used)

Yea. I have the one from the cover to the body bolt by the radiator. I will add one to the drivers side mount. Thanks very much. Hope it gets rid of some of my resistance.

[Dr_Snooz]

Also, Optima's (and other AGM or Gel batteries) will not, and cannot sulfate. They degrade over time, but sulfation is caused by the oxidation of the lead plates in a battery, which can't happen in Gel batteries because the electrolyte level can never drop.

I'm not an expert on batteries really, so I'm open to learning more. My car sat for a couple months with a fairly new red top Optima (~2 yrs). I tried to start it regularly to keep everything ship shape, but you know how that goes. Several times when I came to start the car, the battery was stone dead. When I began driving the car again, I had a low voltage situation and a battery that charged slowly and died quickly. I replaced the battery and all was well. The only term I know for that kind of behavior is sulfation, but like I say, there's a lot I don't know about batteries.

[hondaaccorddrew]

I'm not an expert on batteries really, so I'm open to learning more. My car sat for a couple months with a fairly new red top Optima (~2 yrs). I tried to start it regularly to keep everything ship shape, but you know how that goes. Several times when I came to start the car, the battery was stone dead. When I began driving the car again, I had a low voltage situation and a battery that charged slowly and died quickly. I replaced the battery and all was well. The only term I know for that kind of behavior is sulfation, but like I say, there's a lot I don't know about batteries.

Yes. Same here. I even went to electronics class and got a degree in it. I am not a know it all. I wish I could say I did. It'd be easier that way. :D

[2drSE-i]

How new is your optima? As much as I hate to say it, after Optima was bought by Johnson controls and moved to mexico, they are one of the worst AGM batteries you can buy.

AGM batteries degrade as well in a low voltage situation (car batteries lose can lose up to 10% of their charge per month, meaning a good charged battery (12.8V) can drop to 10.2V in two months. 10% is VERY unlikely in a newer battery, but once it's dropped below 12v (1.2V per cell) degradation happens quickly. Battery tenders are your friends!

[lostforawhile]

99% of the time, the batteries in RVs (and boats for that matter) are dual purpose, starting/deep cycle batteries. Unless he is using a true deep cycle (IE golfcart or electric motor battery) it will be fine. As for sulfation, if it is truly sulfated, there is no getting it back. These "De-sulfators" do nothing but use ultrasound to vibrate off some of the sulfation, and all that does is knock it into the electrolyte. You'll gain some amperage back, but really not enough to make much of a difference. The only true solution to sulfation is to maintain the battery and not allow it to happen.

Also, Optima's (and other AGM or Gel batteries) will not, and cannot sulfate. They degrade over time, but sulfation is caused by the oxidation of the lead plates in a battery, which can't happen in Gel batteries because the electrolyte level can never drop.

EDIT:

I can get into proper maintenance of batteries if requested. I've become a bit of an expert in the field LOL

optima batteries are not true AGM batteries, they use water acid,vs the gel in real AGM types, Optimas are well know to sulfate ,the level does not have to be low, as well as have a lot of other issues, other then batteries such as the odyssey, there are no true water/acid dual use batteries, a starting battery is designed to flow a lot of current quickly and be able to be charged back up quickly by the alternator, a deep cycle is designed for a continuous amp draw over time and requires a low amp recharge over hours, with a wet cell design you can't make them both do the same thing well, despite the hype from optima. It's interesting they claim they are dual purpose yet they sell a starting battery and a deep cycle battery. :nuts: The fact is a deep cycle battery is not designed for use in a cars charging system, you need a starting battery. for a tip, if you have a separate deep cycle for a stereo etc, you can often remove the ac transformer and bridge rectifier from one of those electronic battery chargers,then run it in line between the alternator and a deep cycle, just make sure it's set to deep cycle. You use a meter to find out which is positive and negative on the output side of the bridge rectifier,mark them, then remove the transformer and rectifier and hook a positive and negative wire to the terminals

[2drSE-i]

Your close Tim.

AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) batteries, such as Optima and most powersport batteries are filled with acid either at the factory or in a store. The acid is added, and as the name suggests, is absorbed into an almost fiberglass like "Mat" if you will. They won't sulfate, but they do degrade. It's just a natural breakdown of the lead plates (or spiral wound cord, like in Optimas), but it's not sulfation. True Gel batteries are similar to these in design, but the gel starts out as gel (If that makes any sense...)

[hondaaccorddrew]

optima batteries are not true AGM batteries, they use water acid,vs the gel in real AGM types, Optimas are well know to sulfate ,the level does not have to be low, as well as have a lot of other issues, other then batteries such as the odyssey, there are no true water/acid dual use batteries, a starting battery is designed to flow a lot of current quickly and be able to be charged back up quickly by the alternator, a deep cycle is designed for a continuous amp draw over time and requires a low amp recharge over hours, with a wet cell design you can't make them both do the same thing well, despite the hype from optima. It's interesting they claim they are dual purpose yet they sell a starting battery and a deep cycle battery. :nuts: The fact is a deep cycle battery is not designed for use in a cars charging system, you need a starting battery. for a tip, if you have a separate deep cycle for a stereo etc, you can often remove the ac transformer and bridge rectifier from one of those electronic battery chargers,then run it in line between the alternator and a deep cycle, just make sure it's set to deep cycle. You use a meter to find out which is positive and negative on the output side of the bridge rectifier,mark them, then remove the transformer and rectifier and hook a positive and negative wire to the terminals

Sounds like a plan. I won't be running a powerhouse in my car. So I will just get a real car battery. Is these anything wrong with how I have done my new wiring?

[Oldblueaccord]

optima batteries are not true AGM batteries, they use water acid,vs the gel in real AGM types, Optimas are well know to sulfate ,the level does not have to be low, as well as have a lot of other issues, other then batteries such as the odyssey, there are no true water/acid dual use batteries, a starting battery is designed to flow a lot of current quickly and be able to be charged back up quickly by the alternator, a deep cycle is designed for a continuous amp draw over time and requires a low amp recharge over hours, with a wet cell design you can't make them both do the same thing well, despite the hype from optima. It's interesting they claim they are dual purpose yet they sell a starting battery and a deep cycle battery. :nuts: The fact is a deep cycle battery is not designed for use in a cars charging system, you need a starting battery. for a tip, if you have a separate deep cycle for a stereo etc, you can often remove the ac transformer and bridge rectifier from one of those electronic battery chargers,then run it in line between the alternator and a deep cycle, just make sure it's set to deep cycle. You use a meter to find out which is positive and negative on the output side of the bridge rectifier,mark them, then remove the transformer and rectifier and hook a positive and negative wire to the terminals

Best thing for you to do is contact Optima and show them your credentials and tell them your theory.

I just amaze myself how I can get to back and forth to work daily with an Optima battery, a R12 converted to R134a AC system and 30% Ethanol in my car.


wp

[Oldblueaccord]

99% of the time, the batteries in RVs (and boats for that matter) are dual purpose, starting/deep cycle batteries. Unless he is using a true deep cycle (IE golfcart or electric motor battery) it will be fine. As for sulfation, if it is truly sulfated, there is no getting it back. These "De-sulfators" do nothing but use ultrasound to vibrate off some of the sulfation, and all that does is knock it into the electrolyte. You'll gain some amperage back, but really not enough to make much of a difference. The only true solution to sulfation is to maintain the battery and not allow it to happen.

Also, Optima's (and other AGM or Gel batteries) will not, and cannot sulfate. They degrade over time, but sulfation is caused by the oxidation of the lead plates in a battery, which can't happen in Gel batteries because the electrolyte level can never drop.

EDIT:

I can get into proper maintenance of batteries if requested. I've become a bit of an expert in the field LOL

I found this Hot Rod article pretty easy to understand.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/general/hrdp_1009_how_to_charge_a_agm_battery/viewall.html


wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

Best thing for you to do is contact Optima and show them your credentials and tell them your theory.

I just amaze myself how I can get to back and forth to work daily with an Optima battery, a R12 converted to R134a AC system and 30% Ethanol in my car.


wp

You have a 134a conversion on your car? I know I have the NipponDenso compressor, so it can tolerate it. But how well does it actually cool down? I have hesitated cause I do not wanna lose cooling capacity, but R-12 is EXPENSIVE!. Oh, and I will just stay away from Optimas, yes? They're too expensive and apparently suck now.

[lostforawhile]

Best thing for you to do is contact Optima and show them your credentials and tell them your theory.

I just amaze myself how I can get to back and forth to work daily with an Optima battery, a R12 converted to R134a AC system and 30% Ethanol in my car.


wpyou are lucky, there are thousands including myself who will never again buy one of those pos batteries, I've done my homework, when production shifted south of the border quality went with it, an optima rep started a thread on the hamb to ask about quality, and the complaints were so overwhelming the thread had to be closed

[lostforawhile]

Your close Tim.

AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) batteries, such as Optima and most powersport batteries are filled with acid either at the factory or in a store. The acid is added, and as the name suggests, is absorbed into an almost fiberglass like "Mat" if you will. They won't sulfate, but they do degrade. It's just a natural breakdown of the lead plates (or spiral wound cord, like in Optimas), but it's not sulfation. True Gel batteries are similar to these in design, but the gel starts out as gel (If that makes any sense...)
The odyssey and other dry cell batteries are installed into the case under compression,they are factory sealed and will be ruined if opened
.I've seen the demonstration where the odyssey is cut open and doesn't leak

[lostforawhile]

Best thing for you to do is contact Optima and show them your credentials and tell them your theory.

I just amaze myself how I can get to back and forth to work daily with an Optima battery, a R12 converted to R134a AC system and 30% Ethanol in my car.


wp
here's a couple of great threads for you from the hamb, these guys are serious about their cars,and most will never buy another optima, a lot of them bought the old ones, thought they were great, then discovered the new ones are crap, the quality hasn't gotten any better since this, just another formerly great product moved across the border and now built with sub standard manufacturing and no quality control, I had one myself, replaced it four times under warranty, I ended up turning it in for a core charge on a walmart battery, which actually lasted. And walmart batteries usually suck. I put my money where my mouth is, I have an odyssey pc 625 behind the passenger seat, it sat for a year without being charged, then it cranked the Lincoln right up

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=410932

[Oldblueaccord]

You have a 134a conversion on your car? I know I have the NipponDenso compressor, so it can tolerate it. But how well does it actually cool down? I have hesitated cause I do not wanna lose cooling capacity, but R-12 is EXPENSIVE!. Oh, and I will just stay away from Optimas, yes? They're too expensive and apparently suck now.

Ah that's one of my favorite stories the old green goo purple jelly story. I bought the car with the air broken in 1994. I did some research about converting and did it 1995. When I went to Pep boys to get some parts they explain to me that if I did this my AC system would make, and I shit you not " green goo or purple jelly" . I get a laugh about it when I get into internet debates. Some stuff you just have to try for yourself no matter what the "experts" say.

For me a junkyard 100$ compressor and original parts it works great. I put a can in it otw to work last week and run it on the 1-2 fan setting. So what 15 years I been pretty happy.


EDIT

http://www.ueitest.com/products/clamp-meter/dl49

this is the meter I use alot. its way out of date for work but I think it was like 100$ new. I just buy new fluke leads for it every year. Amazon has em for 85$

wp

[lostforawhile]

Ah that's one of my favorite stories the old green goo purple jelly story. I bought the car with the air broken in 1994. I did some research about converting and did it 1995. When I went to Pep boys to get some parts they explain to me that if I did this my AC system would make, and I shit you not " green goo or purple jelly" . I get a laugh about it when I get into internet debates. Some stuff you just have to try for yourself no matter what the "experts" say.

For me a junkyard 100$ compressor and original parts it works great. I put a can in it otw to work last week and run it on the 1-2 fan setting. So what 15 years I been pretty happy.

wp
I think what they are referring to is the two oils being incompatible, you are supped to flush the system and replace the receiver dryer, well you should do that anyway once it's opened, then fill the system with the correct amount of new oil for the 134, you can tip the compressor on it's side and drain most of the old oil out, the small amount left won't hurt anything. The main issue is the Keihin compressor isn't very good with 134, it damages the main compressor seal or something, the Keihin one wasn't much good anyway

[Dr_Snooz]

You know, it used to be you bought a battery and that was it. It worked for a good long while and when it needed to be replaced, it was cheap.Then we got smart and invented AGM batteries. They were the coolest and most awesomest thing you ever saw. They were so vastly superior to the old wet cell batteries and if you didn't get one, you would die from shame. So I bought one. But it sucks and I'm constantly swapping it on warranty. So now the gel cell is the newest and most awesomest and best ever don't-even-bother-talking-to-me-until-you-run-out-and-buy-one thing in the whole, wide world. But it's super temperamental about charging and overcharging or whatever. I certainly can't use my old charger on it. I have to buy a new and special charger that's twice the price of the old style chargers. And as sure as I buy one, I'll learn all the reasons why the whole setup is in fact much worse than the old batteries and chargers I used to buy.

I'm so done with this. Why is it that everything new and cool is inevitably worse than my old and boring stuff? Why is every new cell phone I get more confusing and less capable but bursting at the seams with useless crap I'll never use than the one I just gave up? I was supposed to replace all my incandescent bulbs years ago with CF bulbs. They're good for the environment. But they bathe everything in a sickly green light and cost four times as much. Oh, and they're filled with mercury which is great for the environment. But now there's something even BETTER!!! I'm supposed to run out and replace all my CF bulbs with LEDs!!! They're so good they cost 10x as much. And they last FOREVER! Well, not really forever, but a long time. And light output degrades almost from day one. But that's okay, because I'm too busy buying hybrid cars now to worry about my terrible light bulb options. Those things are going to save the planet. Except that they still use gas. And every toxic chemical that a normal car requires and at the same intervals. And roll off the same carbon polluting assembly lines. But there's a lot MORE battery chemicals in them. Yay! That's the big environmental plus there and for that you get to spend 50% more to buy the car. When I replumbed Mom's house, PEX was the new and cool gotta-have plumbing option. It's so wonderful that every glass of water still tastes like plastic and poisonous chemicals over two years later.

Every single day, I buy new stuff that is billed as being so vastly superior to the stuff I bought the day before. Unfortunately, I can't verify that because it breaks before I get it out of the box. Sometimes it's broken in the box. And if it makes it out of the box, it is sure to break during the first week of use.

Is our society really incapable of producing anything of lasting value anymore? We used to mock the USSR because they couldn't build anything good. We can't either. We build the same trash but a million times more and a million times faster and we have a vast marketing and propaganda machine keeping us convinced that our trash is so very wonderful. I guess that makes us superior.

I can't believe people still fall for this, but I have friends still call me all excited about their new iPod (that is known to konk out after 3 yrs and have terrible sound quality), or their new iPhone (which breaks the first time you drop it), or their new iPad (which costs as much as a laptop but comes without a keyboard) or their new, shiny, whizbang whatever who cares.

Forgive me, but I am now a loyal, old, boring, stick-in-the-mud buyer. Keep your new and cool and give me the old stuff that I know works. I'll be buying boring batteries from boring stores with counters full of boring, old men who know what I'm talking about when I ask for a battery that works.


Edit: sorry guys, that Optima thread on HAMB sent me over the edge tonight.

[lostforawhile]

snooze,what kind of battery did you get that keeps failing? I got the odyssey because it doesn't out gas,doesn't spill, weighs 20 pounds lighter then the one I took out, holds it's charge when disconnected, and doesn't die because it ran down a couple of times, if your electrical system is good they can last ten years easy, you need a special charger if you run it all the way down, it will charge but not 100 percent, I found one for aircraft that works for it and they are under 80 bucks, it will charge my other batteries too of course, It's got so many advantages I will never go back to an old style battery. The main issue with them is the correct charger if needed, and you need to trickle charge them if there is a load such as a radio memory or alarm memory, but that's only for a long term drain

[2drSE-i]

Lol snooz. you can use the same charger for Agms, gel or wet batteries, gel isn't necessarily better, CFLs can be bought in soft white, bright white and daylight, only have enough mercury to cover the tip of a ballpoint pen, and use about 20% as much energy. LEDs have no harmful gases, use 15% as much energy, and don't have to warm up, are dimmable, etc. It has become environmentally irresponsible to use 60 watts for 600 lumens, when you can get the same light output from 8. A single CFL (60 watt equ.) will pay for itself in energy savings (on a 3 hr per day average) in 3 months. including the 50 cents a regular 60 watt bulb would cost.

[hondaaccorddrew]

You know, it used to be you bought a battery and that was it. It worked for a good long while and when it needed to be replaced, it was cheap.Then we got smart and invented AGM batteries. They were the coolest and most awesomest thing you ever saw. They were so vastly superior to the old wet cell batteries and if you didn't get one, you would die from shame. So I bought one. But it sucks and I'm constantly swapping it on warranty. So now the gel cell is the newest and most awesomest and best ever don't-even-bother-talking-to-me-until-you-run-out-and-buy-one thing in the whole, wide world. But it's super temperamental about charging and overcharging or whatever. I certainly can't use my old charger on it. I have to buy a new and special charger that's twice the price of the old style chargers. And as sure as I buy one, I'll learn all the reasons why the whole setup is in fact much worse than the old batteries and chargers I used to buy.

I'm so done with this. Why is it that everything new and cool is inevitably worse than my old and boring stuff? Why is every new cell phone I get more confusing and less capable but bursting at the seams with useless crap I'll never use than the one I just gave up? I was supposed to replace all my incandescent bulbs years ago with CF bulbs. They're good for the environment. But they bathe everything in a sickly green light and cost four times as much. Oh, and they're filled with mercury which is great for the environment. But now there's something even BETTER!!! I'm supposed to run out and replace all my CF bulbs with LEDs!!! They're so good they cost 10x as much. And they last FOREVER! Well, not really forever, but a long time. And light output degrades almost from day one. But that's okay, because I'm too busy buying hybrid cars now to worry about my terrible light bulb options. Those things are going to save the planet. Except that they still use gas. And every toxic chemical that a normal car requires and at the same intervals. And roll off the same carbon polluting assembly lines. But there's a lot MORE battery chemicals in them. Yay! That's the big environmental plus there and for that you get to spend 50% more to buy the car. When I replumbed Mom's house, PEX was the new and cool gotta-have plumbing option. It's so wonderful that every glass of water still tastes like plastic and poisonous chemicals over two years later.

Every single day, I buy new stuff that is billed as being so vastly superior to the stuff I bought the day before. Unfortunately, I can't verify that because it breaks before I get it out of the box. Sometimes it's broken in the box. And if it makes it out of the box, it is sure to break during the first week of use.

Is our society really incapable of producing anything of lasting value anymore? We used to mock the USSR because they couldn't build anything good. We can't either. We build the same trash but a million times more and a million times faster and we have a vast marketing and propaganda machine keeping us convinced that our trash is so very wonderful. I guess that makes us superior.

I can't believe people still fall for this, but I have friends still call me all excited about their new iPod (that is known to konk out after 3 yrs and have terrible sound quality), or their new iPhone (which breaks the first time you drop it), or their new iPad (which costs as much as a laptop but comes without a keyboard) or their new, shiny, whizbang whatever who cares.

Forgive me, but I am now a loyal, old, boring, stick-in-the-mud buyer. Keep your new and cool and give me the old stuff that I know works. I'll be buying boring batteries from boring stores with counters full of boring, old men who know what I'm talking about when I ask for a battery that works.


Edit: sorry guys, that Optima thread on HAMB sent me over the edge tonight.

Well said, my friend!!! Quality sucks! We're no better than Mexico making the Optima batteries for us. Ford and Chevy both moved to Mexico too. Things made in America aren't of quality anymore, that's why we're loving these wonderful cars from Japan. Their cars continue to be better than ours, my next car will be another Honda no doubt. I have a shiny iPhone. It works good. That means I received a mistake. Cause the ones they build 'right' go back for continuous repairs. They made them messed up so customers kept buying new ones. Nothing to do about it now, quality is gone.

[lostforawhile]

Lol snooz. you can use the same charger for Agms, gel or wet batteries, gel isn't necessarily better, CFLs can be bought in soft white, bright white and daylight, only have enough mercury to cover the tip of a ballpoint pen, and use about 20% as much energy. LEDs have no harmful gases, use 15% as much energy, and don't have to warm up, are dimmable, etc. It has become environmentally irresponsible to use 60 watts for 600 lumens, when you can get the same light output from 8. A single CFL (60 watt equ.) will pay for itself in energy savings (on a 3 hr per day average) in 3 months. including the 50 cents a regular 60 watt bulb would cost.

AGM batteries like the odyssey are voltage sensitive, if your charger puts out around 15 volts like many do, it will damage the battery, I had to do a lot of searching to find a charger that kept the voltage within a safe range. There are high dollar expensive ones made, but I was looking for one at a reasonable price, I bought and returned a lot of battery chargers after measuring the output voltage during charging, especially during maintenance charge, also to bring an AGM battery back from completely dead you need enough current, trickle chargers won't do it. I know mine requires a minimum of ten amps to come back from full discharge, that's ten amps with the voltage properly controlled

[A20A1]

When I replumbed Mom's house, PEX was the new and cool gotta-have plumbing option. It's so wonderful that every glass of water still tastes like plastic and poisonous chemicals over two years later.


I only use Copper http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1slibJ52yoc

[Oldblueaccord]

Well, I took the battery in for load testing and it showed good. The cranking and output current was within range with the stickers on the battery. 600 cranking amps. Should i still replace it?


Can they check the amp load of your car if you bring it down to them if it makes it?


Ill nose around Orilleys if I get a chance I know the advanced here they drag out some kinda load tester on a cart. But I don't know if it can test a load on a car it self I never pay attention.

Semi -Interesting story. I was gasing up a while back and when I do someone always ask me about the E-85. Guy had I would guess a 1968 pickup with the hood up. He was letting his motor cool because it wouldn't start. he had a new battery because the old ones he gotten "where all bad". The battery appeared small in size and about a 650 cranking amp capacity. I had that meter in a Klien bag I take it back and forth from work a lot since it so handy. I convinced him to let me check it when he cranked on it. 350 amps right off bat slow slow cranking. To much timing making the starter pull hard voltage drop and some bad wires floating around the cab didn't help it any his spark was real weak. I tried to explain to him about maybe a bigger battery, little less timing, and new brushes in his starter to get the amp draw down might help him. I don't think he was to convinced.


wp

[2drSE-i]

AGM batteries like the odyssey are voltage sensitive, if your charger puts out around 15 volts like many do, it will damage the battery, I had to do a lot of searching to find a charger that kept the voltage within a safe range. There are high dollar expensive ones made, but I was looking for one at a reasonable price, I bought and returned a lot of battery chargers after measuring the output voltage during charging, especially during maintenance charge, also to bring an AGM battery back from completely dead you need enough current, trickle chargers won't do it. I know mine requires a minimum of ten amps to come back from full discharge, that's ten amps with the voltage properly controlled

Odysseys are the exception. They must be charged with Odysseys charger or you void the warranty (how they tell is beyond me...)

[hondaaccorddrew]

Can they check the amp load of your car if you bring it down to them if it makes it?


Ill nose around Orilleys if I get a chance I know the advanced here they drag out some kinda load tester on a cart. But I don't know if it can test a load on a car it self I never pay attention.

Semi -Interesting story. I was gasing up a while back and when I do someone always ask me about the E-85. Guy had I would guess a 1968 pickup with the hood up. He was letting his motor cool because it wouldn't start. he had a new battery because the old ones he gotten "where all bad". The battery appeared small in size and about a 650 cranking amp capacity. I had that meter in a Klien bag I take it back and forth from work a lot since it so handy. I convinced him to let me check it when he cranked on it. 350 amps right off bat slow slow cranking. To much timing making the starter pull hard voltage drop and some bad wires floating around the cab didn't help it any his spark was real weak. I tried to explain to him about maybe a bigger battery, little less timing, and new brushes in his starter to get the amp draw down might help him. I don't think he was to convinced.


wp

They couldn't even give me the output of the battery. The meter just said it was good. It had a bunch of coils under a cover on their meter, so I assumed it ran a load test particularly when they started glowing red. Anyhow, yesterday I decided to see if it was the battery causing the load on the car. I removed the alternator from the circuit with the engine running and the load was lifed off. The car ran smoother and the alternator didn't smell anymore. As soon as I put it back on, the load came back and the alternator started heating up and the engine wasn't too happy. So, I decided one last test. I removed the fuses from anything that had to do with a computer. I kept the alternator on the circuit, and removed the battery this time. The problem went away. The car seemed to have A LOT less of a load and kept it's voltage as long as you didn't put something over 30 amps on it. IF you ran the AC and the lights, or the lights and the defroster, it would lose voltage and current. Is this a sign it cannot put out a lot of power? On the timing part with that guys truck, I think I have wrong timing too. The keys rattle in the ignition when you accelerate. I think the last time it was replaced, it was off by a tooth or something.

[hondaaccorddrew]

I think what they are referring to is the two oils being incompatible, you are supped to flush the system and replace the receiver dryer, well you should do that anyway once it's opened, then fill the system with the correct amount of new oil for the 134, you can tip the compressor on it's side and drain most of the old oil out, the small amount left won't hurt anything. The main issue is the Keihin compressor isn't very good with 134, it damages the main compressor seal or something, the Keihin one wasn't much good anyway

Yeah I would plan on doing a system flush and a new receiver/dryer. I bet anything it needs replaced already since it's 23 years old. How much oil goes in a system like this? I heard you put an ounce in each, the compressor, condenser, evaporator. Is that true or is an ounce too much?

[2drSE-i]

Something else I learned today.

Incandescent bulbs and LED's are the only kind of bulbs that the light output decreases over time. An LED's rating (40,000 hours or so) is the lifespan of the bulb until they have dimmed to a point that the human eye can perceive the difference. They will continue to burn on, even when they put out no perceivable light, or until the driver burns out.

An Incandescent bulb's rating (usually around 1,000 hours) is until it completely burns out. Around 800 hours and you will notice it is significantly dimmer, if your paying attention.

Halogen bulbs (about 25% more efficient than incandescent) and CFL's (about 75% more efficient) have no perceivable drop in light output. They have their flaws (halogens get really hot, burn out if you touch them, don't have a long service life, etc) (CFL's have to warm up, aren't dimmable usually, have mercury, etc) but they are worth it.


Here's some math for your enjoyment.

Average bulb use: 3 hours per day

60 watt incandescent bulb (60 watts per hour, thats how they are rated) x 3 hours per day x 365 days = 65700. Thats 65.7 KWH, or $7.22 per year, per bulb. (figuring .011 cents per KWH, which is the national average.) Also add .50 cents per bulb, considering you will replace these about once per year (we will say once every two years, for arguments sake, so .25 cents.)

Your at $7.47. PER bulb.

Switch to CFL's

60 watt EQU uses 13 Watts

13 X 3 X 365 = 14235, 14.235 KWH = $1.56. Factor in the price of the bulb, we will say $3 if you are paying way too much.

$4.56. But wait. You only have to replace these every 7 years (if you aren't buying them from Walmart, lowes or home depot) Divide that $3 by 7 ($0.42)

In reality, these only cost you about $1.98. EVEN IF you have to replace them every year, you come out ahead in energy costs.



Sorry, passionate about these. I wear my wife out looking at bulbs every where we go!

[lostforawhile]

Odysseys are the exception. They must be charged with Odysseys charger or you void the warranty (how they tell is beyond me...)

it doesn't have to be an odyssey charger it just has to keep the voltage below a certain point, if the charger voltage is too high the safety vent will open and the battery is ruined. I have a link somewhere to all of their technical data and charger requirements etc. the one i found is specifically made for AGM batteries and I watched it through a full charge cycle with meter connected. The charger never went above 14 volts

[hondaaccorddrew]

Well, that was a bust. The new battery took most of the load off the alternator. But with the headlights on at idle and the cooling fans cycling on and off, it doesn't have anything above battery voltage before starting when the car is at idle. 2,000 RMP and I have enough voltage. I bet you guys are sick of this post by now, but suggestions? New wiring? Nope. New battery (a real car battery), nope. An alternator that stinks like shit? Yes. No money, also yes. No one around me does load tests! Oh, yes! The charging light blinks rapidly above 3,000 RPM. My treat.

[2drSE-i]

I haven't looked at the initial trouble shooting in a few days, what is the voltage at the battery during idle? Increase engine speed to 2k and measure again. If it isn't at least 14 something is wrong with the ALT.

[lostforawhile]

Well, that was a bust. The new battery took most of the load off the alternator. But with the headlights on at idle and the cooling fans cycling on and off, it doesn't have anything above battery voltage before starting when the car is at idle. 2,000 RMP and I have enough voltage. I bet you guys are sick of this post by now, but suggestions? New wiring? Nope. New battery (a real car battery), nope. An alternator that stinks like shit? Yes. No money, also yes. No one around me does load tests! Oh, yes! The charging light blinks rapidly above 3,000 RPM. My treat.

the only thing that would cause a charge light to do that is a bad regulator inside of the alternator, the alternator switches the blue/white wire from positive to ground to make the lamp come on

[Dr_Snooz]

In reality, these only cost you about $1.98. EVEN IF you have to replace them every year, you come out ahead in energy costs.


You forgot to factor in the Zoloft prescription because the sickly green glow will make you clinically depressed. ;)


Well, that was a bust. The new battery took most of the load off the alternator. But with the headlights on at idle and the cooling fans cycling on and off, it doesn't have anything above battery voltage before starting when the car is at idle. 2,000 RMP and I have enough voltage. I bet you guys are sick of this post by now, but suggestions? New wiring? Nope. New battery (a real car battery), nope. An alternator that stinks like shit? Yes. No money, also yes. No one around me does load tests! Oh, yes! The charging light blinks rapidly above 3,000 RPM. My treat.

I would guess you smoked the alternator trying to charge up that bad battery. Especially if it's been smelling. Take it in and ask them to replace it on warranty.

Again, we can only do so much guessing from where we are. There is a series of very good diagnostic troubleshooting procedures for the charging system detailed in the manual. You've spent a lot of money easter egging this thing already. You can keep spending money to replace parts and hoping, or buy the tools you need and fix the problem.

[hondaaccorddrew]

I haven't looked at the initial trouble shooting in a few days, what is the voltage at the battery during idle? Increase engine speed to 2k and measure again. If it isn't at least 14 something is wrong with the ALT.

14.21 at idle. Put on the AC, it stays. Headlights, it drops to 13.5. Defogger, AC, lights, it drops to 12.51 (battery voltage) and stays. If you have I in gear with the AC on, the voltage is 13.5. The slower it goes, the lesser the current output. To get the 14.21 volts back, you have to raise up to 2,000 RPM. But cannot have more than the AC and headlights. It has a crappy current output. Why would this be? Why are all my alternators so crappy at current output, especially at low RPM? When I disconnect the battery from the car while the engine is on, there is still a great deal of a gain in RMP and less load on the engine.

[hondaaccorddrew]

the only thing that would cause a charge light to do that is a bad regulator inside of the alternator, the alternator switches the blue/white wire from positive to ground to make the lamp come on

Yea. Go figure. POS.

[hondaaccorddrew]

You forgot to factor in the Zoloft prescription because the sickly green glow will make you clinically depressed. ;)



I would guess you smoked the alternator trying to charge up that bad battery. Especially if it's been smelling. Take it in and ask them to replace it on warranty.

Again, we can only do so much guessing from where we are. There is a series of very good diagnostic troubleshooting procedures for the charging system detailed in the manual. You've spent a lot of money easter egging this thing already. You can keep spending money to replace parts and hoping, or buy the tools you need and fix the problem.

I got a brand new battery last night. Installed it this morning. And I have just gotten a new battery, new wiring, and new alternators. All that's needed. I have followed the electrical troubleshooting. Just dont have an ammeter to hook to the battery. I guess I should break down and get a good $130 one and bite the bullet. Cause it looks like I am SOL without one.

[Oldblueaccord]

14.21 at idle. Put on the AC, it stays. Headlights, it drops to 13.5. Defogger, AC, lights, it drops to 12.51 (battery voltage) and stays. If you have I in gear with the AC on, the voltage is 13.5. The slower it goes, the lesser the current output. To get the 14.21 volts back, you have to raise up to 2,000 RPM. But cannot have more than the AC and headlights. It has a crappy current output. Why would this be? Why are all my alternators so crappy at current output, especially at low RPM? When I disconnect the battery from the car while the engine is on, there is still a great deal of a gain in RMP and less load on the engine.

Well from my numbers these Orilleys alts may not be to good. I'm not getting steady voltage on mine either. I ran a bunch or errands yesterday, short stop and goes, with the AC fan on full after start up and my voltage would go under 13v. I'm thinking of adding a voltage gauge and taking my original one and getting the rebuilder here to fix it up. I never turned it in for the core I kinda know better with parts stores.

You really shouldn't pull the pos terminal with the car running.that can ruin the alt pretty quick. I know its an old school way of checking but I have had some bad results.

I guess the only things I can add is make sure the terminal are tight. If there original Honda ends the bolt can be bottomed out but the terminal not be tight. you'll be able to twist it off with your hand.

The power box under the hood I would look underneath it and all the connections there and pull each fuse and see if corrosion has damaged them.

I checked my ground from the battery and it runs right to the bracket that the clutch cable hooks to near the starter.


wp

[2drSE-i]

You forgot to factor in the Zoloft prescription because the sickly green glow will make you clinically depressed. ;)


LOL. Fair enough. They do make them in Bright white and daylight as well. I HATE the softwhite ones. If you buy CFL's (Which i'm assuming, you won't ;) )get at least 4100k's. Working and living in 2700k's can actually, literally make you lethargic and depressed.

Oh, and if you get migraines, avoid CFL's like the plague. They WILL aggravate and cause more headaches.


OK, seriously though, back on topic! It sounds to me like you have a bad alternator. Either roll the dice on another of the same, or take it back and upgrade. You may have to deal with another replacement since your broke, unfortunately.

[hondaaccorddrew]

LOL. Fair enough. They do make them in Bright white and daylight as well. I HATE the softwhite ones. If you buy CFL's (Which i'm assuming, you won't ;) )get at least 4100k's. Working and living in 2700k's can actually, literally make you lethargic and depressed.

Oh, and if you get migraines, avoid CFL's like the plague. They WILL aggravate and cause more headaches.


OK, seriously though, back on topic! It sounds to me like you have a bad alternator. Either roll the dice on another of the same, or take it back and upgrade. You may have to deal with another replacement since your broke, unfortunately.

I guess this is why most psychologists recommend the 'happy light' for those that are depressed. However, insurance refuses to pay for it. I get migraines from fluorescent lights. The hertz is visible to my eye even though I do not see it myself most of the time. The 60 flashes a second kill me. School was a nightmare. I can't use computer screens with CFL bulbs in them either. Just LED.

On the alternator. I am saving up to buy a legend and get this underpowered BS out of the way. EBAY has brand new ones for $90, no core needed. Should I trust that?

[hondaaccorddrew]

Well from my numbers these Orilleys alts may not be to good. I'm not getting steady voltage on mine either. I ran a bunch or errands yesterday, short stop and goes, with the AC fan on full after start up and my voltage would go under 13v. I'm thinking of adding a voltage gauge and taking my original one and getting the rebuilder here to fix it up. I never turned it in for the core I kinda know better with parts stores.

You really shouldn't pull the pos terminal with the car running.that can ruin the alt pretty quick. I know its an old school way of checking but I have had some bad results.

I guess the only things I can add is make sure the terminal are tight. If there original Honda ends the bolt can be bottomed out but the terminal not be tight. you'll be able to twist it off with your hand.

The power box under the hood I would look underneath it and all the connections there and pull each fuse and see if corrosion has damaged them.

I checked my ground from the battery and it runs right to the bracket that the clutch cable hooks to near the starter.


wp

I hear ya. Every one I have had doesn't hold it's voltage under half of the load more or less part of the load that can be put on it. When I FIRST got the car, it didn't have that issue, it kept voltage under high current loads. I never had the lights dim when I stepped on the brakes. Now I do. Gotta be the alternators...

My fuse box looks almost brand new inside. I even pulled it out and looked at all the fuse connections. Everything is shiny new looking copper. Same with the under dash fuse box. Sigh.

It sounds like you have a manual transmission. Mine also bolts to the transmission. I should consider another ground somewhere.

When pulling the battery terminal off, the alternator seems to be RELIEVED that it's no longer charging the battery. The engine's RPM's raise slightly and it stops smelling funky after a minute or two of cooling down. I don't try to turn anything on. But it likes not having a battery. POS.

[lostforawhile]

if the alternator is smelling you have something major going on, and NEVER pull off a battery terminal while it's running, thats an old trick that used to be used on generators, it can ruin your alternator in a few seconds, it can also cause a huge voltage spike,upwards of 20 volts that can cook everything electronic in the car. Like I said if the charge light is doing something weird the positive or negative output of that wire is controlled directly by the regulator inside of the alternator, usually on the bad alternators it's either bad brushes or a bad regulator, the re builders often reuse the old regulators and often also use the existing brushes

[hondaaccorddrew]

if the alternator is smelling you have something major going on, and NEVER pull off a battery terminal while it's running, thats an old trick that used to be used on generators, it can ruin your alternator in a few seconds, it can also cause a huge voltage spike,upwards of 20 volts that can cook everything electronic in the car. Like I said if the charge light is doing something weird the positive or negative output of that wire is controlled directly by the regulator inside of the alternator, usually on the bad alternators it's either bad brushes or a bad regulator, the re builders often reuse the old regulators and often also use the existing brushes

Yea. And charge several hundred bucks for them. The alternator is trash, like the rest. I have no tools as no money. With neither, there probably isn't any more sense in troubleshooting. All talk, no action. I'll keep the terminals on from now on when it's running, my bad.

[hondaaccorddrew]

I am getting a clamp on meter later in the week from Amazon. It measures current up to 1,000 on AC and DC. When I put this clamp on my battery wire, how much current draw should I see at full load on this car?

[lostforawhile]

I am getting a clamp on meter later in the week from Amazon. It measures current up to 1,000 on AC and DC. When I put this clamp on my battery wire, how much current draw should I see at full load on this car?

the alternator is 63 amps if i remember so hopefully not more then that, what you need to look for is a draw with the car off

[hondaaccorddrew]

the alternator is 63 amps if i remember so hopefully not more then that, what you need to look for is a draw with the car off

Sounds like a plan. I am using the big one, cause the meter I have cannot do more than 10 amps and I do not wanna blow it if it has a parasitic draw of over that (not likely) but just in case.

[hondaaccorddrew]

Well, my battery light is back on again. I knew it would. But this time, it went out like the second one did. The choke heater doesn't get power (the blue/white) wire, but I have charging voltage, so I can at least drive it. If you restart the car, it goes away unless you go over 3k RPM. Is this the voltage regulator still, or should I look into whatever else is on the same circuit as this white/blue wire? It seems to be intermittent because I have troubleshooted the battery light before and it led to a bad choke heater. Which is replaced. Ideas? Could it be my solenoid computer under the driver seat?

[lostforawhile]

Well, my battery light is back on again. I knew it would. But this time, it went out like the second one did. The choke heater doesn't get power (the blue/white) wire, but I have charging voltage, so I can at least drive it. If you restart the car, it goes away unless you go over 3k RPM. Is this the voltage regulator still, or should I look into whatever else is on the same circuit as this white/blue wire? It seems to be intermittent because I have troubleshooted the battery light before and it led to a bad choke heater. Which is replaced. Ideas? Could it be my solenoid computer under the driver seat? if the charge warning light is on the blue and white wire is at a negative state and the choke won't operate, when it's charging it's at a positive state and this powers the choke heater among other things, this is an internal regulator issue inside of the alternator

[hondaaccorddrew]

if the charge warning light is on the blue and white wire is at a negative state and the choke won't operate, when it's charging it's at a positive state and this powers the choke heater among other things, this is an internal regulator issue inside of the alternator

Alright. Thanks. I bet you have said that many times. The negative/positive switching. Like a chant.

[lostforawhile]

Alright. Thanks. I bet you have said that many times. The negative/positive switching. Like a chant.

Ok I just wanted you to understand why the choke isn't working when the charge light is on, a lot of people don't understand how it works at all

[hondaaccorddrew]

Ok I just wanted you to understand why the choke isn't working when the charge light is on, a lot of people don't understand how it works at all

It is a smart and well designed system. I whipped out the electronics manual and read it on the charging system and everything makes more sense.

[Oldblueaccord]

I am getting a clamp on meter later in the week from Amazon. It measures current up to 1,000 on AC and DC. When I put this clamp on my battery wire, how much current draw should I see at full load on this car?


I posted mine on post #58 I think.


wp

[ecogabriel]

About r-12 to r-134a retrofits, it is my understanding that the problem was that the PAG oil used with r-134a was incompatible with the RESIDUE of r-12 in suspension with the old oil. New PAGs (called double-end capped PAGs) do not have that problem, and in addition they do not absorb humidity.

See the Acura retrofit bulletin below

http://daliracing.com/v666-5/download/pdf_article/tsb/converting-r-12-ac-systems-to-r-134a95-008.pdf

EDIT: I found a visual comparison of what happens when regular PAG oil is exposed to r-12

http://www.autofrost.com/hotshot/index.html

EDIT 2: I got the comparison of regular PAG vs. DEC (double-end capped) PAG; quite illustrative in terms of humidity absorption...

http://www.autoacforum.com/messageview.cfm?catid=20&threadid=17571

[hondaaccorddrew]

I posted mine on post #58 I think.


wp

I saw that :) I am getting one like it, but 1000 amps DC+AC

[hondaaccorddrew]

About r-12 to r-134a retrofits, it is my understanding that the problem was that the PAG oil used with r-134a was incompatible with the RESIDUE of r-12 in suspension with the old oil. New PAGs (called double-end capped PAGs) do not have that problem, and in addition they do not absorb humidity.

See the Acura retrofit bulletin below

http://daliracing.com/v666-5/download/pdf_article/tsb/converting-r-12-ac-systems-to-r-134a95-008.pdf

EDIT: I found a visual comparison of what happens when regular PAG oil is exposed to r-12

http://www.autofrost.com/hotshot/index.html

EDIT 2: I got the comparison of regular PAG vs. DEC (double-end capped) PAG; quite illustrative in terms of humidity absorption...

http://www.autoacforum.com/messageview.cfm?catid=20&threadid=17571

That's really nice information there! So, lesson learned. When doing an R-12 to 134a retrofit, get the DEC PAG oil, it won't turn into mud in your compressor if you don't get all the old oil out.

[Oldblueaccord]

OK heres what I have.

Battery at rest 12.78 volts this is after I drove home from work 28 miles.

Started up and got 12.76V with a -3 amp draw at just under 1000 rpms on the stock tach.. Not real happy with this.

Turned on everything I could lights (high) AC both fans,blower fan on full, rear defrost (it works) and got 12.26 V plus charging read 21 amps. Revving it up didnt seem to help.

After I shut off it went to 10 amps charge and 13.7 volts. This is a reman oreillys alt about 6 months old.



Turned off ignition off your looking at 45 amps full load old stuff old car old wires.


Sorry I ment post 56#
wp

[Oldblueaccord]

I wanted to add to draws that have been a problem to others is the headlight motors staying on all the time and possibly electric window motor jammed and on all the time.


wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

OK heres what I have.

Battery at rest 12.78 volts this is after I drove home from work 28 miles.

Started up and got 12.76V with a -3 amp draw at just under 1000 rpms on the stock tach.. Not real happy with this.

Turned on everything I could lights (high) AC both fans,blower fan on full, rear defrost (it works) and got 12.26 V plus charging read 21 amps. Revving it up didnt seem to help.

After I shut off it went to 10 amps charge and 13.7 volts. This is a reman oreillys alt about 6 months old.



Turned off ignition off your looking at 45 amps full load old stuff old car old wires.


Sorry I ment post 56#
wp

My numbers look a lot like this, but a little less. Battery rest at 12.51. Brand new battery. 14.2 at idle. 14.2 with AC on, NOT in gear. In gear, 13.7. It just gets worse and worse with each application. After I get everything on, I have 11.6 volts, no matter what RPM, even in gear.

"Old stuff, old car, old wires" is right. No argument there whatsoever.

[hondaaccorddrew]

I wanted to add to draws that have been a problem to others is the headlight motors staying on all the time and possibly electric window motor jammed and on all the time.


wp

I guess the only way to check this is to unplug these and see if there is a load change mostly?

[lostforawhile]

I guess the only way to check this is to unplug these and see if there is a load change mostly?

there is no stop so they would keep flipping.the motors rotate in one direction, whats a possibility is that the motors use dynamic braking to freeze in the correct position, if one of the headlight relays is hung up the motors could be stuck in dynamic braking using a lot of current

[hondaaccorddrew]

there is no stop so they would keep flipping.the motors rotate in one direction, whats a possibility is that the motors use dynamic braking to freeze in the correct position, if one of the headlight relays is hung up the motors could be stuck in dynamic braking using a lot of current

How would I go about testing this? Just pull the headlight relay and see if there is a load change?

[Oldblueaccord]

Yeah try and isolate the suspect problem by pulling the fuse or unplugging the area.

I think you can just force them up with the manual switch on the dash and they wont pull power any more. But I never really tried and tested it.


Did you get you meter?


wp

[Dr_Snooz]

My numbers look a lot like this, but a little less. Battery rest at 12.51. Brand new battery. 14.2 at idle. 14.2 with AC on, NOT in gear. In gear, 13.7. It just gets worse and worse with each application. After I get everything on, I have 11.6 volts, no matter what RPM, even in gear.

"Old stuff, old car, old wires" is right. No argument there whatsoever.

The only number that looks bad there is the 11.6. When you say "everything on" what all are you referring to? What one single thing causes the biggest drop? Does the charge light come on when it hits this low voltage?

If you pull the #1 fuse in the dash fuse box, does it look like the fuse box has been hot? Are the wires discolored or is the plastic fuse box melted and deformed? Is the fuse itself melted? Is the fuse good?

Same question for the #8 fuse in the engine fuse box.

[Dr_Snooz]

Question for the other guys here: Drew really needs to load test his battery and alternator at this point. If it were me, I would go down to Harbor Freight and buy a carbon pile load tester, but there's a depression on and we're all trying to save our money. Is there a way he can get those components load tested properly without having to spend a lot of money? I'm reasonably certain that the Autozone crew will not be capable of doing a good test. Honestly, I'd put more faith in a coin toss. Can he take the parts to an auto electric shop? Will they do a proper load test to Honda spec? What would they charge?

[lostforawhile]

Question for the other guys here: Drew really needs to load test his battery and alternator at this point. If it were me, I would go down to Harbor Freight and buy a carbon pile load tester, but there's a depression on and we're all trying to save our money. Is there a way he can get those components load tested properly without having to spend a lot of money? I'm reasonably certain that the Autozone crew will not be capable of doing a good test. Honestly, I'd put more faith in a coin toss. Can he take the parts to an auto electric shop? Will they do a proper load test to Honda spec? What would they charge?

he already said there were a number of automotive electrical shops around him, I've been suggesting this to him through most of this thread, it doesn't cost much to have this test done. The alternator light acting up already tells me it's the regulator in the alternator, thats the only thing that can cause the light to act up

[hondaaccorddrew]

Yeah try and isolate the suspect problem by pulling the fuse or unplugging the area.

I think you can just force them up with the manual switch on the dash and they wont pull power any more. But I never really tried and tested it.


Did you get you meter?


wp

Yes, it is in the mail. I am excited! It should be a few more days. By the end of the week I will most likely be posting the results of current draws.

[hondaaccorddrew]

[QUOTE=Dr_Snooz;1097447]The only number that looks bad there is the 11.6. When you say "everything on" what all are you referring to? What one single thing causes the biggest drop? Does the charge light come on when it hits this low voltage?

If you pull the #1 fuse in the dash fuse box, does it look like the fuse box has been hot? Are the wires discolored or is the plastic fuse box melted and deformed? Is the fuse itself melted? Is the fuse good?

Same question for the #8 fuse in the engine fuse box.[/QUOTE

Everything on defined by EVERYTHING but the stereo (unplugged, and the amp removed from the car). Lights on, car in gear, brakes applied, defroster on, fan on high, with AC on) When I touch any wiring or the wiring bundles, nothing is warm after use. The AC motor wiring is slightly warm, but I suppose this is normal. No fuses in my car have ever been melted. The terminals on them are all clean and free of charring. There are no melted plugs. I am going to have my meter that measures AC and DC current up to 1000 amps, I am going to see how much current draw there is on the car with everything on.

[hondaaccorddrew]

he already said there were a number of automotive electrical shops around him, I've been suggesting this to him through most of this thread, it doesn't cost much to have this test done. The alternator light acting up already tells me it's the regulator in the alternator, thats the only thing that can cause the light to act up

Yes it is the only way. I did my homework on the electrical diagnostics manual, and you are 100% correct. It's gotten to the point to where if you let the car warm up to operating temp, the battery light stays off when you accelerate. It's cheaply made, and they still charge several hundred dollars for these rebuilds. I am attempting to do the Legend alternator upgrade. I just ignore the 4th red/white wire on the alternator plug mod, correct? I will take this broken alternator into a good electrical machine shop and have them quality rebuild it, and possibly buy a NEW regulator offline for it or let them put the new one that they have in, same with the Legend alternator if it gives me trouble. Which it shouldn't saying I am buying a brand new part.

[lostforawhile]

Yes it is the only way. I did my homework on the electrical diagnostics manual, and you are 100% correct. It's gotten to the point to where if you let the car warm up to operating temp, the battery light stays off when you accelerate. It's cheaply made, and they still charge several hundred dollars for these rebuilds. I am attempting to do the Legend alternator upgrade. I just ignore the 4th red/white wire on the alternator plug mod, correct? I will take this broken alternator into a good electrical machine shop and have them quality rebuild it, and possibly buy a NEW regulator offline for it or let them put the new one that they have in, same with the Legend alternator if it gives me trouble. Which it shouldn't saying I am buying a brand new part.

I hope this fixes it, I can't believe how much they charged for the rebuild I didn't pay nearly that much for the Nappa one and it's still going in it's new owners car. You will do much better to have the testing and rebuilds done at a shop, even if it costs as much as a rebuild, you get one done here with a warranty you can take back to the shop if needed. The legend is a good upgrade, I went to a 98 civic one because of the pulley matching the AC pulley groove, or I would have done the same, I should be able to find a higher output civic one easy. since you have the manual, check at the alternator plug and make sure you have voltage at both circuits tht are supposed to be hot with the key on, they should be hot and the warning light wire should be at ground with the engine off, get a test light, don't use the meter on this one, sometimes a digital meter will show voltage even though there is an issue stopping most of the current from flowing, such as a corroded connection or wire, you may see 12 volts at the meters high impedence, but very little current can flow in the circuit a 12 volt test light will show for certain that current is making it through.

[Dr_Snooz]

he already said there were a number of automotive electrical shops around him, I've been suggesting this to him through most of this thread

Yep. I think this is one for the shop.

[hondaaccorddrew]

I got my new meter, which measures current! Hooray!

Here's the results.

Battery voltage was 12.41 when starting out, car off.

3.7 amps at idle, 13.4 volts.

15.4 amps at idle with headlights on, 12.72 volts. All other accessories off.

15.1 amps at idle with rear defroster on, 12.73 volts. Other accessoreis off.

22 amps at idle with AC on, fan on HIGH, both condenser fans running. 12.4 volts. Other accessories off.

46 amps full load (AC, fan on high, headlights, rear defroster) at idle, 11.8 volts.

61 amps full load (AC, fan on high, headlights, rear defroster) at idle IN GEAR with brake pedal depressed, 11.6 volts.

I don't like the voltage. The alternator smelled like shit during the testing. Bad alternator, too much current draw, or a combo of both?

[lostforawhile]

I got my new meter, which measures current! Hooray!

Here's the results.

Battery voltage was 12.41 when starting out, car off.

3.7 amps at idle, 13.4 volts.

15.4 amps at idle with headlights on, 12.72 volts. All other accessories off.

15.1 amps at idle with rear defroster on, 12.73 volts. Other accessoreis off.

22 amps at idle with AC on, fan on HIGH, both condenser fans running. 12.4 volts. Other accessories off.

46 amps full load (AC, fan on high, headlights, rear defroster) at idle, 11.8 volts.

61 amps full load (AC, fan on high, headlights, rear defroster) at idle IN GEAR with brake pedal depressed, 11.6 volts.

I don't like the voltage. The alternator smelled like shit during the testing. Bad alternator, too much current draw, or a combo of both?



bad alternator, it's supposed to be designed to run all the factory accessories, did you check all the grounds? the alternator shouldn't smell, when it's over it's capacity the extra current simply is drawn from the battery, it shouldn't be dropping that much voltage with the headlights on, you need to double check all battery connections,the alternator connection, check the terminal in the underhood fuse box, the battery and alternator terminals, and al grounds,make sure none are missing, I mean unbolt each ground and make sure the metal under it is clean, bolt it back down and use vaseline over the terminals


stupid editing, can't even edit a post, you do have permission to perform this action bla bla bla

[lostforawhile]

remember your alternator runs the electrical system,voltage should be 13-14 volts with most loads, that voltage is way too low, the battery is probably not charging right,slowly running down and draining the alternator.

[hondaaccorddrew]

bad alternator, it's supposed to be designed to run all the factory accessories, did you check all the grounds? the alternator shouldn't smell, when it's over it's capacity the extra current simply is drawn from the battery, it shouldn't be dropping that much voltage with the headlights on, you need to double check all battery connections,the alternator connection, check the terminal in the underhood fuse box, the battery and alternator terminals, and al grounds,make sure none are missing, I mean unbolt each ground and make sure the metal under it is clean, bolt it back down and use vaseline over the terminals


stupid editing, can't even edit a post, you do have permission to perform this action bla bla bla

When I redid my grounds an positive wires, I cleaned everything. The new wires are 4ga. All my terminals in the fuse box are tight and clean. I was wondering high resistance too. I will recheck my grounds. I will look into getting the carbon pile load tester mentioned in an earlier post.

[hondaaccorddrew]

remember your alternator runs the electrical system,voltage should be 13-14 volts with most loads, that voltage is way too low, the battery is probably not charging right,slowly running down and draining the alternator.

Even though the battery is new? It is a Wal-Mart battery.

[lostforawhile]

Even though the battery is new? It is a Wal-Mart battery.I'm not saying the battery is bad, the alternator isn't putting out enough current to keep the battery charged, so it runs down. If you aren't producing at least 13 volts the battery won't charge, your alternator is charging way out of spec under load. one of the standard tests is to run the car with the high beams on at idle, the voltage shouldn't drop more then a 1/10 of a volt or so when they are switched on,yours drops way down,your system is dropping to less then 13 volts with only a 15 amp draw,it might drop to slightly less then 13 with everything running,and it working normally, but not with a small draw like that have you ever checked the belt? I just assumed you had done basic checks, what kind of smell are you smelling?

[Oldblueaccord]

I got my new meter, which measures current! Hooray!

Here's the results.

Battery voltage was 12.41 when starting out, car off.

3.7 amps at idle, 13.4 volts.

15.4 amps at idle with headlights on, 12.72 volts. All other accessories off.

15.1 amps at idle with rear defroster on, 12.73 volts. Other accessoreis off.

22 amps at idle with AC on, fan on HIGH, both condenser fans running. 12.4 volts. Other accessories off.

46 amps full load (AC, fan on high, headlights, rear defroster) at idle, 11.8 volts.

61 amps full load (AC, fan on high, headlights, rear defroster) at idle IN GEAR with brake pedal depressed, 11.6 volts.

I don't like the voltage. The alternator smelled like shit during the testing. Bad alternator, too much current draw, or a combo of both?

rerun that test in order with the ignition OFF no charging. See what system is pulling alot. The 60 amps charging(running) I would say max your going to see out of a stock alt/reman.

Have fun with your new toy!

wp

EDIT I would like to see a battery fully charged,at rest, running 12.7 volts or higher.

[hondaaccorddrew]

I'm not saying the battery is bad, the alternator isn't putting out enough current to keep the battery charged, so it runs down. If you aren't producing at least 13 volts the battery won't charge, your alternator is charging way out of spec under load. one of the standard tests is to run the car with the high beams on at idle, the voltage shouldn't drop more then a 1/10 of a volt or so when they are switched on,yours drops way down,your system is dropping to less then 13 volts with only a 15 amp draw,it might drop to slightly less then 13 with everything running,and it working normally, but not with a small draw like that have you ever checked the belt? I just assumed you had done basic checks, what kind of smell are you smelling?

I would even prefer to keep it above 14 with it in idle at full load, since I am tired of everything dimming when I am stopped at a light. The smell smells like heated aluminum or melting solder mixed with hot stator windings (burning up motor smell). I am sure you know what I am talking about.

[hondaaccorddrew]

rerun that test in order with the ignition OFF no charging. See what system is pulling alot. The 60 amps charging(running) I would say max your going to see out of a stock alt/reman.

Have fun with your new toy!

wp

EDIT I would like to see a battery fully charged,at rest, running 12.7 volts or higher.

I should remove it and charge it then. I can also disconnect the alternator from the battery/fuse box too and see the draw there, I'll post results both ways. Oh, I will enjoy the new toy! I have always wanted one of these. I will post a link later for those curious of what I got. It measures up to 1,000 amps DC and AC. Reviews are nothing below 4 stars.

[lostforawhile]

don't run the alternator without the battery connected,ever, you are not going to get above 14 volts at idle with a full load, the alternator simply isn't turning fast enough . It charges at idle pretty decent, but you won't get full rated output at idle. you are going to get a little under 13 volts with everything in the car running, this alternator is running right at max with everything on, this is another reason to do the legend swap, they could have used a higher rated output alternator on this car factory. You have the option to replace that one or have it rebuilt,or do the legend swap. you need to do all the external checks before you swap it first, voltage at both hot leads at the alternator plug with key on, check all grounds,fully charged battery etc. check all connections for tightness,check the belt tension

[Dr_Snooz]

I need to get a good ammeter.

...No, I have one. I just need to learn how to use it. It might be broken. I don't know.

With the ammeter, you probably don't need the load tester. As long as you can measure the current draw and the voltage, you can use the components in the car to create load. Just for giggles, after you charge the battery, find out what it is drawing at idle. If it isn't sucking up a lot of juice, then I think we can eliminate it as a potential problem.

These charging system issues are tough. I had an issue with my truck putting out low voltage. I thought it was the alternator and replaced it, but the problem remained. The volt gauge in the truck was showing around 11 volts. The voltage going to the camper, however, was 17v. I did some more troubleshooting and found a corroded connection on the battery isolator. I replaced the connection and the isolator and the problem was fixed. I'm to the point where the next time I have a charging system problem, I'm just going to go out and keep buying tools until I can diagnose everything properly, just like a shop can. If it keeps me from buying one unnecessary part, then I will have saved money.

[hondaaccorddrew]

don't run the alternator without the battery connected,ever, you are not going to get above 14 volts at idle with a full load, the alternator simply isn't turning fast enough . It charges at idle pretty decent, but you won't get full rated output at idle. you are going to get a little under 13 volts with everything in the car running, this alternator is running right at max with everything on, this is another reason to do the legend swap, they could have used a higher rated output alternator on this car factory. You have the option to replace that one or have it rebuilt,or do the legend swap. you need to do all the external checks before you swap it first, voltage at both hot leads at the alternator plug with key on, check all grounds,fully charged battery etc. check all connections for tightness,check the belt tension

I wasn't talking about removing the battery from the circuit with the car running, I was talking about making a no-charge situation by removing the positive connections from the alternator, leaving just the battery in the circuit. When you had me check for the bad choke, you had me test the alternator plug and it checked out correctly. I will refer to the note I copied from you to test it again, however. Grounds are good and tight. I cleaned them when I did the wire upgrade. I am planning on doing the Legend upgrade, for the advantages of no current loss at idle with load, and I am rebuilding this unit at an electric shop. What is best when it comes to mounting this alternator on the upper mount? Anyone with experience or knowledge that still comes online? I am getting the 4 prong connector for the alternator mod from a junkyard Monday.

[hondaaccorddrew]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001VGND88/

This is the meter I purchased. Any thoughts?

[hondaaccorddrew]

I need to get a good ammeter.

...No, I have one. I just need to learn how to use it. It might be broken. I don't know.

With the ammeter, you probably don't need the load tester. As long as you can measure the current draw and the voltage, you can use the components in the car to create load. Just for giggles, after you charge the battery, find out what it is drawing at idle. If it isn't sucking up a lot of juice, then I think we can eliminate it as a potential problem.

These charging system issues are tough. I had an issue with my truck putting out low voltage. I thought it was the alternator and replaced it, but the problem remained. The volt gauge in the truck was showing around 11 volts. The voltage going to the camper, however, was 17v. I did some more troubleshooting and found a corroded connection on the battery isolator. I replaced the connection and the isolator and the problem was fixed. I'm to the point where the next time I have a charging system problem, I'm just going to go out and keep buying tools until I can diagnose everything properly, just like a shop can. If it keeps me from buying one unnecessary part, then I will have saved money.

That does make sense. How much current should I see at idle, nothing on?

These charging problems ARE difficult. It's annoying. It's a completely different system on the car, and requires completely different knowledge than fixing the engine itself. I have my annmeter, it should keep me busy for a while. The reason for having the load tester is to test the battery itself. The one in there says it puts out 525 cold cranking amps, I would like to test the validity of that.

[hondaaccorddrew]

Sorry I didn't reply last night, I kept getting the 403 forbidden error, did anyone else have this issue?

Here's my results with the engine off as follows:

Key on run, all accessories off. Doors closed. 6.6 amps, 12.14 volts.

15.3 amps, 11.96 volts with cabin fan on high, other accessories off. Doors closed.

27.0 amps, 11.83 volts with AC on, fan on high, both radiator fans on. Other accessories off. Doors closed.

21.3 amps, 11.94 volts with lights on, all other accessories off. Doors closed.

Full load, brakes applied, engine off. 47 amps, 11.54 volts. Doors closed upon reading.

Battery isn't holding above 12.5 under load. Hmph.

[lostforawhile]

the alternator should be able to hold at least 13 volts with the small amount of amperage showing,eithier the brushes are bad in the alternator or the regulator is bad, with the burning smell coming from the alternator, you had better be careful or you are going to end up setting something in your car on fire

[Oldblueaccord]

Sorry I didn't reply last night, I kept getting the 403 forbidden error, did anyone else have this issue?

Here's my results with the engine off as follows:

Key on run, all accessories off. Doors closed. 6.6 amps, 12.14 volts.

15.3 amps, 11.96 volts with cabin fan on high, other accessories off. Doors closed.

27.0 amps, 11.83 volts with AC on, fan on high, both radiator fans on. Other accessories off. Doors closed.

21.3 amps, 11.94 volts with lights on, all other accessories off. Doors closed.

Full load, brakes applied, engine off. 47 amps, 11.54 volts. Doors closed upon reading.

Battery isn't holding above 12.5 under load. Hmph.


Ill retest it Monday and check the voltage under load. I don't think I did last time. Amp draw seems same as mine. That 6.6 amps with just the key on I will check as well.


wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

Ill retest it Monday and check the voltage under load. I don't think I did last time. Amp draw seems same as mine. That 6.6 amps with just the key on I will check as well.


wp

I would say that rebuilt may not be the way to go when it's coming to alternators and starters. This is a load of bull shit. We're both basically diagnosing each others crappy alternators :D lol make sure you test it with the engine off. I even took my alternator off to make sure it wasn't shorting out to ground. I had one do that once. Come out to a dead battery.

[hondaaccorddrew]

the alternator should be able to hold at least 13 volts with the small amount of amperage showing,eithier the brushes are bad in the alternator or the regulator is bad, with the burning smell coming from the alternator, you had better be careful or you are going to end up setting something in your car on fire

I better hurry with the legend mod then.

[Dr_Snooz]

How much current should I see at idle, nothing on?

Well, if the battery is fully charged, then you should see very little. If it's pulling 15 amps, then you know the battery is bad.

From p. 24-20 in the manual, if you want to load test the battery, then you would apply a 300 amp load (probably running the starter motor with the coil disconnected will get you close), then a 15 second recovery, followed by a 160-200 amp load (refer to the chart) for 15 seconds. The voltage should not fall below 9.6V while you do this. If it does, charge it fully and repeat the test. If it fails again, the battery is bad.

I think for your purposes, though (ie: a stinky alternator and low voltage), checking the current draw of the battery at idle is going to tell you much more than a generic load test. If it's sucking up a lot of juice, then that will be putting a real load on the alternator, possibly causing smelliness and low voltage.

I'm encouraged that we haven't, so far, had any more fireworks displays. I think you're down to two possibilities: a bad alternator or a bad connection somewhere. If it were a bad connection, however, you would almost certainly be able to see some kind of damage to a wire, so a bad alt is the most likely culprit now.

It's good to see you keeping at it.

[lostforawhile]

Well, if the battery is fully charged, then you should see very little. If it's pulling 15 amps, then you know the battery is bad.

From p. 24-20 in the manual, if you want to load test the battery, then you would apply a 300 amp load (probably running the starter motor with the coil disconnected will get you close), then a 15 second recovery, followed by a 160-200 amp load (refer to the chart) for 15 seconds. The voltage should not fall below 9.6V while you do this. If it does, charge it fully and repeat the test. If it fails again, the battery is bad.

I think for your purposes, though (ie: a stinky alternator and low voltage), checking the current draw of the battery at idle is going to tell you much more than a generic load test. If it's sucking up a lot of juice, then that will be putting a real load on the alternator, possibly causing smelliness and low voltage.

I'm encouraged that we haven't, so far, had any more fireworks displays. I think you're down to two possibilities: a bad alternator or a bad connection somewhere. If it were a bad connection, however, you would almost certainly be able to see some kind of damage to a wire, so a bad alt is the most likely culprit now.

It's good to see you keeping at it.
he's going to see some current use for just running the car itself and everything that is energized while it's running, the coil for example,current to run the igniter,fuel pump, various electronic items, carb control box, carb solonoid box on the firewall, it all adds up. the 15 amps being drawn with the headlights on is normal, but the voltage shouldn't drop that low with such a small load, a good alternator should easily be able to maintain voltage right up to near it's maximum output

[Oldblueaccord]

Ok new data.

Took these while taking my rear end in my truck apart and after working 38 hours in 3 days so forgive me if it jumps around a little.

Battery at rest after a trip home 28 miles. Optima yellow top 2 maybe 3 years old. 15 min cool down for coffee.Amazingly made it home again from work with no green goo or purple jelly.

Motor off:

12.7v .15A draw driver door open closed .18A

ECU ( key on idiots lights on) 12.64V 2.0A

Headlights low 12.44V 10.5A
high 12.33v 15.0A
HVAC Fan high 12.3 11.3A

Everything above plus AC,rear defrost and radio, set to NPR. I let the car set at rest a few mins wan watched some Bluebirds before full load.

11.97V 44.9-45A

after full load I started the car and got

12.33V 10 amps charging

Everything off car running but the idle boost acted up and the idle rpm was very low.

13.36V climb to 13.7 then after revving the car some stayed at 13.8V

Shut everything off but kept an eye on the voltage

12.93V after one min and when I quit for the day it was 12.80V with the same amp draw of .15 amps

wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

Well, if the battery is fully charged, then you should see very little. If it's pulling 15 amps, then you know the battery is bad.

From p. 24-20 in the manual, if you want to load test the battery, then you would apply a 300 amp load (probably running the starter motor with the coil disconnected will get you close), then a 15 second recovery, followed by a 160-200 amp load (refer to the chart) for 15 seconds. The voltage should not fall below 9.6V while you do this. If it does, charge it fully and repeat the test. If it fails again, the battery is bad.

I think for your purposes, though (ie: a stinky alternator and low voltage), checking the current draw of the battery at idle is going to tell you much more than a generic load test. If it's sucking up a lot of juice, then that will be putting a real load on the alternator, possibly causing smelliness and low voltage.

I'm encouraged that we haven't, so far, had any more fireworks displays. I think you're down to two possibilities: a bad alternator or a bad connection somewhere. If it were a bad connection, however, you would almost certainly be able to see some kind of damage to a wire, so a bad alt is the most likely culprit now.

It's good to see you keeping at it.

I do not normally give up easily. Even if I get mad and throw crap, I calm down and think for an hour or so, and have fixed problems this way.

My battery is brand new, Everstart from Wal-Mart. My first Everstart was awesome, that was until my alternator went out. Come to think of it, I am positive the first alternator was not O'reilly and every repalcement before wasn't. I didn't have lights dimming at stops and stuff before my first alt went out. So I would guess it is the reman factor in this.

No wiring damage, no blown fuses, no melted connectors, etc. I think my grounds are coming lose though. I bumped the one by the tranny the other day and it MOVED! The connector was so difficult to tighten, I am thinking of replacing them with a copper kind, instead of steel plated.

NO FIREWORKS! I need my 3gee for a few more years. Having oil on the back of the engine, I know it would be a fantastic show for YouTube. I am unsure of how to *safely* wash the engine bay.

[hondaaccorddrew]

Ok new data.

Took these while taking my rear end in my truck apart and after working 38 hours in 3 days so forgive me if it jumps around a little.

Battery at rest after a trip home 28 miles. Optima yellow top 2 maybe 3 years old. 15 min cool down for coffee.Amazingly made it home again from work with no green goo or purple jelly.

Motor off:

12.7v .15A draw driver door open closed .18A

ECU ( key on idiots lights on) 12.64V 2.0A

Headlights low 12.44V 10.5A
high 12.33v 15.0A
HVAC Fan high 12.3 11.3A

Everything above plus AC,rear defrost and radio, set to NPR. I let the car set at rest a few mins wan watched some Bluebirds before full load.

11.97V 44.9-45A

after full load I started the car and got

12.33V 10 amps charging

Everything off car running but the idle boost acted up and the idle rpm was very low.

13.36V climb to 13.7 then after revving the car some stayed at 13.8V

Shut everything off but kept an eye on the voltage

12.93V after one min and when I quit for the day it was 12.80V with the same amp draw of .15 amps

wp

Maybe I should question the accuracy of my meter? You seem to have less draw with individual things on, but the total add up is the same. You're also fuel injected. You probably will show less current draw than the carbed version, not so many electical solenoids on vacuum lines, etc. Our battery voltages are different at rest. *sigh* mine is 12.2 right now. We both drop below 12 volts at idle with full load too, and that is NOT good on the battery. Does it go away with more RPM?

[Oldblueaccord]

yeah it would come up with RPM.

Since the car was wanting to stall I would bump it up and watch voltage/amps they would increase with steady RPM. if anything your meter would be better mines prolly almost 10 years old and I have never got it re calibrated.

I still think from the original short high voltage surges you got some bad wires/connectors some place. I know its not easy to find but it will jump out at you some day.

There some "hot spot" areas like the combo switch (behind the steering wheel) I had that smoke on me the white wire carries all the power to the headlights. The HVAC blower connector like I said before high draw melted it


As far as the "low" voltage at idle. I think this is really typical of most cars. I know my old 70's cars will not carry 13.7V with a load on it. They have Amp meters and they all discharge at idle at night with loads. its not the perfect system that your thinking. DC voltage always sags with load.

Thinking as I type I will measure my original factory alt pulley size and see if maybe Orilleys slipped us the wrong pulley. I kept the original one this one in the car is my third. Also make sure your belt is tight. Mine loaded I could hear the belt wanting to chatter and a slipping belt will put heat back into a component quick. Learn that working on conveyors.


wp

[Dr_Snooz]

he's going to see some current use for just running the car itself and everything that is energized while it's running, the coil for example,current to run the igniter,fuel pump, various electronic items, carb control box, carb solonoid box on the firewall, it all adds up. the 15 amps being drawn with the headlights on is normal, but the voltage shouldn't drop that low with such a small load, a good alternator should easily be able to maintain voltage right up to near it's maximum output

Is he going to see this draw on the white wire going to the battery?


Maybe I should question the accuracy of my meter? You seem to have less draw with individual things on, but the total add up is the same. You're also fuel injected. You probably will show less current draw than the carbed version, not so many electical solenoids on vacuum lines, etc. Our battery voltages are different at rest. *sigh* mine is 12.2 right now. We both drop below 12 volts at idle with full load too, and that is NOT good on the battery. Does it go away with more RPM?

Blue is getting below 12V with the car OFF, unless I'm misreading that.

[hondaaccorddrew]

yeah it would come up with RPM.

Since the car was wanting to stall I would bump it up and watch voltage/amps they would increase with steady RPM. if anything your meter would be better mines prolly almost 10 years old and I have never got it re calibrated.

I still think from the original short high voltage surges you got some bad wires/connectors some place. I know its not easy to find but it will jump out at you some day.

There some "hot spot" areas like the combo switch (behind the steering wheel) I had that smoke on me the white wire carries all the power to the headlights. The HVAC blower connector like I said before high draw melted it


As far as the "low" voltage at idle. I think this is really typical of most cars. I know my old 70's cars will not carry 13.7V with a load on it. They have Amp meters and they all discharge at idle at night with loads. its not the perfect system that your thinking. DC voltage always sags with load.

Thinking as I type I will measure my original factory alt pulley size and see if maybe Orilleys slipped us the wrong pulley. I kept the original one this one in the car is my third. Also make sure your belt is tight. Mine loaded I could hear the belt wanting to chatter and a slipping belt will put heat back into a component quick. Learn that working on conveyors.


wp

My belt is relatively tight. Not too tight. I use the hood prop as a lever and lift up on the belt. It's got about 1/2 inch of freeplay, which according to the manual is best. I do not ever wanna over tighten though.

I always wondered about that pully. Which would make sense that an origional NP alternator was putting out just fine before at idle. All of my O'Reilly's have needed about 1500 RPM to be satisfied with output. I could have sworn they were different too. But I didn't think anything of it. It voids the warranty anyway when you remove the pully from a lifetime alternator, which is BS.

How hard is it to remove the steering wheel? When I turn my lights on, my gauge cluster gear selector lights will flash and flicker, between lights on-dim and lights-off day setting. Flicking the brights on and off usually settles it down, it can get annoying with your D4 light flickering brigher and dimmer in your face at night.

[hondaaccorddrew]

he's going to see some current use for just running the car itself and everything that is energized while it's running, the coil for example,current to run the igniter,fuel pump, various electronic items, carb control box, carb solonoid box on the firewall, it all adds up. the 15 amps being drawn with the headlights on is normal, but the voltage shouldn't drop that low with such a small load, a good alternator should easily be able to maintain voltage right up to near it's maximum output

"A good alternator" I wish :D

[hondaaccorddrew]

Is he going to see this draw on the white wire going to the battery?



Blue is getting below 12V with the car OFF, unless I'm misreading that.

I would assume that the white wire, or the larger 4ga wire in my case would see a little over the current being drawn, just to keep up on the battery.

I think so too, I must have misread.

[hondaaccorddrew]

I got a 4 pin alternator plug today from a 93 acura. I cleaned it up a bit. The wiring is the same colors as the FI model of 3 gen, but should I assume that the pinout is the same?

http://i47.tinypic.com/34yr4o6.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/2hdwqvr.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/1555idh.jpg

[lostforawhile]

it should be just look at the one on the car and the one you have, you won't use all the connections for carb

[lostforawhile]

I would assume that the white wire, or the larger 4ga wire in my case would see a little over the current being drawn, just to keep up on the battery.

I think so too, I must have misread.
blue/white is ground with the car off and plus twelve volts when charging.

[lostforawhile]

Is he going to see this draw on the white wire going to the battery?



Blue is getting below 12V with the car OFF, unless I'm misreading that.

the car shouldn't be drawing current from the battery if the alternator is working, when the engine is on everything runs off of the alternator, all the battery does is provide energy to start the car and run accessories when the engine is off, it also stabilizes the alternator voltage by acting as a load.

[hondaaccorddrew]

blue/white is ground with the car off and plus twelve volts when charging.

We were talking about the wire to the fuse box from the alternator lol. Or in my case the big 4ga red one I upgraded to for the wiring upgrade.

[hondaaccorddrew]

the car shouldn't be drawing current from the battery if the alternator is working, when the engine is on everything runs off of the alternator, all the battery does is provide energy to start the car and run accessories when the engine is off, it also stabilizes the alternator voltage by acting as a load.

Yeah I know for sure it's the alternator, even more with you saying this. Most of the current gets pulled through the fuse box on the car from the battery side, I saw barely any current draw on the alternator. It couldn't hack it.

[cygnus x-1]

That battery rating is by the hour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery


I doubt your car starter runs more than 90 amps. I'll check mine if I can con the wife into helping me.


For reference, I used to run a trunk mounted battery and it had a 140 amp circuit breaker inline with the positive wire. It would start the engine easily and never tripped.

C|

[Oldblueaccord]

My belt is relatively tight. Not too tight. I use the hood prop as a lever and lift up on the belt. It's got about 1/2 inch of freeplay, which according to the manual is best. I do not ever wanna over tighten though.

I always wondered about that pully. Which would make sense that an origional NP alternator was putting out just fine before at idle. All of my O'Reilly's have needed about 1500 RPM to be satisfied with output. I could have sworn they were different too. But I didn't think anything of it. It voids the warranty anyway when you remove the pully from a lifetime alternator, which is BS.

How hard is it to remove the steering wheel? When I turn my lights on, my gauge cluster gear selector lights will flash and flicker, between lights on-dim and lights-off day setting. Flicking the brights on and off usually settles it down, it can get annoying with your D4 light flickering brigher and dimmer in your face at night.

Ill got 2.600" in the pulley on the ribs. This was the one I pulled off the car I got off a Honda in a junkyard about 12 years ago.

The combo switch I think you can pull the back of it off pretty easy without pulling the wheel just to look at the wires.

wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

Ill got 2.600" in the pulley on the ribs. This was the one I pulled off the car I got off a Honda in a junkyard about 12 years ago.

The combo switch I think you can pull the back of it off pretty easy without pulling the wheel just to look at the wires.

wp

You mean remove the black cover that is behind the steering wheel to look at the wiring?

[Dr_Snooz]

the car shouldn't be drawing current from the battery if the alternator is working, when the engine is on everything runs off of the alternator, all the battery does is provide energy to start the car and run accessories when the engine is off, it also stabilizes the alternator voltage by acting as a load.

So like I was saying.......

[lostforawhile]

So like I was saying.......

you can measure it at the white wire coming from the alternator

[hondaaccorddrew]

Okay, so I am getting the legend alternator, then installing it and seeing how it goes. When it comes to buying alternators, which store/source do you guys recommend? Who should I REALLY trust? I found one on Ebay (link below), and the seller has high reviews. It is a new alternator, doesn't need a core (a plus since I do not have one to give) and has a 1 year warranty, which is typical. Is this a good idea? I tried Napa, they do not sell this alt. new unless it's a Bosch 200 Amp. (over $900!!!)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Alternator-Acura-Legend-95-94-93-92-91-Car-Auto-Parts-1995-1994-1993-1992?item=320912055642&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D38125241312729824

[Oldblueaccord]

You mean remove the black cover that is behind the steering wheel to look at the wiring?


Yes at least mine I could. To replace it you'll need the wheel off. I don't think they used "split" combo switches on our cars.


wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

Yes at least mine I could. To replace it you'll need the wheel off. I don't think they used "split" combo switches on our cars.


wp

What do you mean by "split" combo switch?

[Dr_Snooz]

Okay, so I am getting the legend alternator, then installing it and seeing how it goes. When it comes to buying alternators, which store/source do you guys recommend? Who should I REALLY trust? I found one on Ebay (link below), and the seller has high reviews. It is a new alternator, doesn't need a core (a plus since I do not have one to give) and has a 1 year warranty, which is typical. Is this a good idea? I tried Napa, they do not sell this alt. new unless it's a Bosch 200 Amp. (over $900!!!)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Alternator-Acura-Legend-95-94-93-92-91-Car-Auto-Parts-1995-1994-1993-1992?item=320912055642&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D38125241312729824

If you're worried about it, buy a new Denso alternator from Rock Auto or O'Reilly.

[lostforawhile]

What do you mean by "split" combo switch?

you take off the wheel,unplug the combo switch and take off a couple of screws, it pulls straight off. russiankid has a really good repair and redo thread on these switches,thats your only choice as they are no longer made

[hondaaccorddrew]

If you're worried about it, buy a new Denso alternator from Rock Auto or O'Reilly.

Just looked. Neither carry brand new. O'Reilly only does remans, same with Autozone and Rock Auto. Only Rock Auto sells the ND. Sorry, not trying to be irritating.

[hondaaccorddrew]

you take off the wheel,unplug the combo switch and take off a couple of screws, it pulls straight off. russiankid has a really good repair and redo thread on these switches,thats your only choice as they are no longer made

I found the posts by searching for his username. Thank you so much for pointing me to that info, it's very helpful. I will get into cleaning it all up tomorrow.

[Oldblueaccord]

What do you mean by "split" combo switch?


They made some supposedly for our cars that you could separate instead of all one piece captured behind the steering wheel. There wires you can see are on the backside.

wp

[hondaaccorddrew]

They made some supposedly for our cars that you could separate instead of all one piece captured behind the steering wheel. There wires you can see are on the backside.

wp

Like you could remove the lights control separate from the wipers control? So mine may not be able to separate and clean after all? Bummer.

[lostforawhile]

Like you could remove the lights control separate from the wipers control? So mine may not be able to separate and clean after all? Bummer.
They can all be taken apart, just follow the how to and be very careful not to lose the tiny parts and springs

[hondaaccorddrew]

They can all be taken apart, just follow the how to and be very careful not to lose the tiny parts and springs

Oh, I gotcha. Thanks man. I replaced all of my interior dash lighting with LED's, I hope I can manage to do this right.

[Dr_Snooz]

Just looked. Neither carry brand new. O'Reilly only does remans, same with Autozone and Rock Auto. Only Rock Auto sells the ND. Sorry, not trying to be irritating.

I should have verified that before posting. Oh well. I would go with a rebuilt Denso or Beck-Arnley. Or I would rebuild it myself with the aid of a competent electrics shop.

[hondaaccorddrew]

I should have verified that before posting. Oh well. I would go with a rebuilt Denso or Beck-Arnley. Or I would rebuild it myself with the aid of a competent electrics shop.

Well, if this one goes out after the one year warranty, I will look into rebuilding the alternator myself, or get quotes from a local electric shop. It can't be that hard to rebuild them yourself. Replace the brushes, regulator, bearings, and make sure the stator isn't grounding out.

[ecogabriel]

I should have verified that before posting. Oh well. I would go with a rebuilt Denso or Beck-Arnley. Or I would rebuild it myself with the aid of a competent electrics shop.

Denso alternators are available @ rockauto.com both in 3-pin and 4-pin.

[Oldblueaccord]

Well, if this one goes out after the one year warranty, I will look into rebuilding the alternator myself, or get quotes from a local electric shop. It can't be that hard to rebuild them yourself. Replace the brushes, regulator, bearings, and make sure the stator isn't grounding out.

heres your fix :rockon:

http://www.delcoremy.com/Alternator-Models/55SI-High-Output-Brushless-Heavy-Duty-Alternator.aspx

note the output graph esp at low rpms.


wp

[lostforawhile]

heres your fix :rockon:

http://www.delcoremy.com/Alternator-Models/55SI-High-Output-Brushless-Heavy-Duty-Alternator.aspx

note the output graph esp at low rpms.


wp

mount an extra engine at the back to drive it?

[hondaaccorddrew]

mount an extra engine at the back to drive it?

Ba ha ha! :lol: yes! There goes the gas mileage.

[lostforawhile]

Ba ha ha! :lol: yes! There goes the gas mileage.

at 420 amps for a 12 volt it would take some horsepower to drive it

[hondaaccorddrew]

at 420 amps for a 12 volt it would take some horsepower to drive it

Time to put another A20A1 in the trunk :D

[lostforawhile]

Time to put another A20A1 in the trunk :D

something like that is useful for applications like a tractor trailer where you had to run inverters for the sleeper, things like that, motor homes, anything with a large engine where there is a big 12 volt draw

[hondaaccorddrew]

something like that is useful for applications like a tractor trailer where you had to run inverters for the sleeper, things like that, motor homes, anything with a large engine where there is a big 12 volt draw

Our motor home has one that looks like this. Not as much current for sure, but it charges the 3 coach batteries, especially after a large 'dry camp'