What aftermarket power steering racks actually don't leak?

[nswst8]

I get the car back from Firestone ( Lifetime Alignment agreement) and the racks starts to leak out PS fluid in a steady flow drip. I'm pissed!. It's the second A1- cardone in a year. Should I go with Atsco (Autozone), Oreilly's offers another brand at more than double the cost $258.99 + tax. It actually states to use Honda PS fluid to avoid voiding warranty.

The cardone came with red hydraulic fluid that was flushed out completely with honda clear PS fluid ($6.29 per quart X 4). I'm just thinking that they used the cheaper red crap for keeping the seals lubed.

I need suggestions, greatly appreciated.:dunno::burn:

[DBMaster]

The replacement rack my mechanic (Danny's Import Services in Lewisville) installed in 2003, 160,000 miles ago, is still leak free. He uses a remanufacturer somewhere "in California." Based upon that and my rebuilt transmission I can tell he uses only specialists and his rebuilt stuff is about the best you can get in that arena. PM me and I'll send you the phone number, if you're interested. If you tell Danny I referred you he will probably reveal his source. Be prepared to pay more than what you would at Autozone.

[2oodoor]

I would keep an eye on it since that could be back pressure leak from moving the steering while the car is not running. If they did a caster check they may have done that. The fluid would hold up in the dust boot and trickle out .
Idealy that shouldnt happen but it may not be a permenant leak.

I wont say it's not the Cardone rack though, they are hit and miss and they miss a lot.
Ac delco is rebuilding a quite a bit and they're cheep but im not sure they do 3 gen.
I like that they void warrenty with no Honda fluid, so does that mean oem seals were used throughout? Hmmm

[lostforawhile]

I just paid the money to get the good rack at Nappa, it leaked for a short time then it quit leaking, I suspect the brand new seals may swell from the fluid after a period of time

[nswst8]

I was just looking at NAPA, I'm interested in the one Mike's mechanic installed.

[DBMaster]

It cost me right around $500 installed. So, I am sure it would cost more than the parts store racks. But, it really sounds like you get what you pay for. You gotta figure a mom & pop operation like Danny's is wants to avoid comebacks like the plague. Just note that after I had the rack replaced I had to replace several other leaky things in the intervening years. They were the high pressure hose (2nd time in the car's life), several return hoses, a seal kit for the P/S pump, and one of the custom molded lines between the pump and the reservoir.

By now I am thinking a manual rack might be a nice thing! :)

[RobT5580]

I picked up a Napa one with lifetime leak warranty but obviously have not used it yet.

[DBMaster]

I guess I had my fill of "lifetime warranty" parts from Chief Auto in the 80's. It does not mean you won't expend your time and labor multiple times. However, I have found NAPA and O'Reilly's to be on a somewhat higher level than Auto Zone. I wish I could recall what Danny told me about "sleeved" racks. Apparently, there is a quick and dirty way to rebuild them and a RIGHT way to do it. That does not mean that the Q&D rack won't last. It just means that it has a lower probability of lasting.

I don't have a lot of extra time on my hands so sometimes I just pay Danny to fix the car. He respects it because it is obvious that an anal retentive type (me) has maintained it for 23 years. He knows that I am going to check his work. His aftermarket suspension parts aren't that great, but his reman stuff is top notch. For example, he will only use rebuilt alternators from Denso. My suspicion is that Denso does a good job of rebuilding its own stuff. They used to use the same brand of new radiator that I picked, but found that an all-metal part was more likely to leak than a plastic/metal part so they changed brands. When I replaced mine after just three years (one of those lovely lifetime warrantied parts) the new one was plastic and metal.

I will tell you that it was EXTREMELY hard for me to find a mechanic. I did 100% of the work on this car from 1989 to 2003. When the oil pan gasket was leaking badly enough I needed to find a place to do it so I could keep going to the office to pay the bills. This shop was recommended to me and I had a good, long conversation with Danny, the owner. Believe it or not, guys like us have nearly as much trouble finding a good shop as someone who knows nothing about cars. Many shops treat knowledgeable guys like crap because they either think they know more, or they just resent the fact that we may know more about our own cars than they do. Thankfully, I have found neither to be the case with this shop. They literally only work on THREE cars of this vintage and all are in great condition. I am the only one of the three who knows the car intimately, though. Sometimes, they just tell me what's wrong and say, "You can do this yourself and save some money." Now, THAT is what I call a good shop. Quite a rare find these days.

[nswst8]

Oreilly's came through with a MOOG reman unit (only charged a difference of $63) , I will install it tomorrow. They also comped some new power steering fluid for the new rack & pinion unit.

[Hauntd ca3]

in my own opinion formed from my experience in the automotive trades,
dont use a mechanic for fuck all apart from engine repairs.
use specialists.
they cost more , they know what they are on about.
i'm an auto electrician and see mechanics screw up what to me are the most simple things.
most specialist auto transmission places will do power steering pumps and some will do racks as well.
wouldnt trust any aftermarket parts warehouse that does everything.
find a good mechanic for the engine problems
an auto electrician for starting,charging,power windows, hvac etc.
the actual hourly rate maybe more expensive than a general mechanic, but 95% of the time they will find the problem faster and have access to the right stuff at a better rate.

[Vanilla Sky]

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/repeat-after-me/23441/page1/

That will save you a good deal of trouble.

[lostforawhile]

they must have stopped making the good racks,figures.

[Vanilla Sky]

Well, they ended up determining the cause of the failures of the properly rebuilt racks to be incorrect fluid. I won't run anything but Honda OEM power steering fluid anymore.

[2drSE-i]

The lifetime warranty one I bought from advance 2 years ago is holding up well. Unfortunately, I let my idiot friend fill it up with what he had in his garage, which I later found out is transmission fluid. "It's the same thing!" and this guy is an ASE certified master mechanic....geez. So it's a ticking timebomb but it's held up great for the last two years. :dunno:

And yes, it has Honda PSF in it now, but the trans fluid was in it for a couple of months.

[2drSE-i]

Oh and "VanillaSky HalfDork"

I think you may need to be upgraded soon ;)

[lostforawhile]

these racks have a bad reputation of leaking even when new, mainly because of the power steering fluid issue, I know a lot of people who swore the honda fluid was the same, only overpriced because it said Honda. It's not the same but try to convince your average person to pay three times the price of prestone or similar

[nswst8]

Well it's in, waiting for an alignment tomorrow at Firestone. Glad I spent $99 fifteen years ago for that lifetime alignment agreement.

It did not have ATF in it, like the A1-cardone units, so maybe its a sign. Yet I still flushed it with 2 quarts of Oreilly's Honda specific power steering fluid.

It's funny talking about Original Honda power steering fluid, thats the only stuff I used when I first bought the car, yet the original Honda rack leaked as well.

[88lxi-shortram]

napa dude.... i work at napa and can tell you now that all of our reman products arent cheaply redone they are 100 % quality rebuilt. there is a reason that i delvier parts to ever dealership from nissan to VW,,,,

[nswst8]

If this one doesn't work then I will be going to NAPA, thanks for the info.

[lostforawhile]

napa dude.... i work at napa and can tell you now that all of our reman products arent cheaply redone they are 100 % quality rebuilt. there is a reason that i delvier parts to ever dealership from nissan to VW,,,,

most of them lol, there is the lower grade and the higer grade I've gotten a few of the lower grade parts but most are good

[nswst8]

It's at Firestone, well see after I go pick it up.

[MessyHonda]

good luck with the new replacement

[nswst8]

Car is back, with no leaks so far. This was MOOG reman rack & pinion unit. It was not shipped with ATF fluid. Which I believed was a major plus. Will keep you all updated.

[Dr_Snooz]

I get the car back from Firestone ( Lifetime Alignment agreement) and the racks starts to leak out PS fluid in a steady flow drip. I'm pissed!. It's the second A1- cardone in a year. Should I go with Atsco (Autozone), Oreilly's offers another brand at more than double the cost $258.99 + tax. It actually states to use Honda PS fluid to avoid voiding warranty.

The cardone came with red hydraulic fluid that was flushed out completely with honda clear PS fluid ($6.29 per quart X 4). I'm just thinking that they used the cheaper red crap for keeping the seals lubed.

I need suggestions, greatly appreciated.:dunno::burn:

Couple thoughts. One, I wouldn't go near Firestone with a Hazmat suit and a good life insurance policy. Just sayin'. There's no way of knowing if one of their guys decided to help you out by topping off your PS fluid reservoir with "whatever" they had sitting around.

Two, if I got a rack filled with ATF, I would run ATF in it. (In truth, I would return it, but that's another rant.) As far as I understand it, the type of fluid you run in the rack is not the problem. Changing is the problem because the incompatible fluids eat the seals. I'm not a chemical engineer, obviously, but that's my understanding of it. The seals are probably all nitrile and nitrile doesn't particularly care what you throw at it as long as you are consistent.

Good luck with the new rack.

[lostforawhile]

Couple thoughts. One, I wouldn't go near Firestone with a Hazmat suit and a good life insurance policy. Just sayin'. There's no way of knowing if one of their guys decided to help you out by topping off your PS fluid reservoir with "whatever" they had sitting around.

Two, if I got a rack filled with ATF, I would run ATF in it. (In truth, I would return it, but that's another rant.) As far as I understand it, the type of fluid you run in the rack is not the problem. Changing is the problem because the incompatible fluids eat the seals. I'm not a chemical engineer, obviously, but that's my understanding of it. The seals are probably all nitrile and nitrile doesn't particularly care what you throw at it as long as you are consistent.

Good luck with the new rack.

the Honda seals were supposed to be self healing, anything other then the Honda fluid simply destroys them, the Honda fluid is actually a synthetic type fluid, it's nothing like prestone or ATF

[DBMaster]

I have used non-OEM "Honda" fluids for a long time. They are available wherever auto supplies are sold, including Wally World. As long as it says "made for Honda" you're fine. I have never understood why anyone would try to save money here. Of course, I had a friend who was a mechanic twenty years ago who told me that he rebuilt plenty of racks on Hondas and Acuras due to someone cheaping out and putting Dexron fluid into them.

[Dr_Snooz]

If you want a good laugh, take a trip to the junkyard and look at all the leaky racks underneath the Hondas. You'll know exactly how many people try using the wrong fluid.

[DBMaster]

I guess I should clarify. When I say "non OEM" I still mean fluid made for Hondas. This would not be the same as regular P/S fluid, "universal" P/S fluid, or ATF. Wherever you buy it just make sure it says that it is for Honda and you'll be fine. It is more expensive, but that's life.

[nswst8]

Just for the record the part through Oreilly's was listed under Rare parts #55214 (MOOG 55214)

Did alot of driving today and no leaks.

[A18A]

I got annoyed with my power steering fluid always disappearing. now i just use waste oil or what ever works. it lasts a couple thousand k's before i have to fill it again. probably not good for it though lol.

[Dr_Snooz]

I got annoyed with my power steering fluid always disappearing. now i just use waste oil or what ever works. it lasts a couple thousand k's before i have to fill it again. probably not good for it though lol.

I think once it starts leaking, the fluid question becomes academic. I mean, if the seals are leaking, why bother buying special fluid to preserve them?

Having said that, I put some special leak stopper PS fluid (not Honda spec) in my '82 Accord one time. It was already leaking pretty badly, and I just brain farted massively and used the worst fluid possible. It leaked like crazy after that and the car started wandering and became difficult to keep on the road. When you get to that point, change the rack.

[lostforawhile]

I got annoyed with my power steering fluid always disappearing. now i just use waste oil or what ever works. it lasts a couple thousand k's before i have to fill it again. probably not good for it though lol.

that will ruin your pump too, those pumps are high precision and the crud in that will ruin them

[lostforawhile]

oh and don't use the lucas power steering stop leak, I tried that once went from a tiny drip to the seals ruined in the rack and pump within a week

[A18A]

that will ruin your pump too, those pumps are high precision and the crud in that will ruin them

Shouldn't the filter prevent gunk from going through the pump?


I think once it starts leaking, the fluid question becomes academic. I mean, if the seals are leaking, why bother buying special fluid to preserve them?

Having said that, I put some special leak stopper PS fluid (not Honda spec) in my '82 Accord one time. It was already leaking pretty badly, and I just brain farted massively and used the worst fluid possible. It leaked like crazy after that and the car started wandering and became difficult to keep on the road. When you get to that point, change the rack.

If this happened to me, i'd start changing stuff lol. the fluid at least anyway. TBH I don't really care about the longevity of my power steering since I have lots of spare parts to fix whatever breaks. I wouldn't advise others to do what I do though, unless you live in a wreckers yard and enjoy working on your car lots :D

/thread jack

[cygnus x-1]

The absolute sure fire way to make sure your steering rack doesn't leak is to not put fluid in it. Power steering is over rated. :D


C|

[2oodoor]

The absolute sure fire way to make sure your steering rack doesn't leak is to not put fluid in it. Power steering is over rated. :D


C|

yes and no.. ;)

since were on the subject, about a year ago, my rack which was not leaking, made a strange gurgling noise when I was under the hood messing with the idle adjustments. When I moved the car the rack just puked out fluid, and it did this only 2 days and only when I was backing out of a parking space. I topped it off with Honda fluid, which I think it already had in it, and it has not leaked since.
Do NOT ever use Lucas like Lost says, as good as Lucas products are for some things, this one isn't a good choice for rack and pinions.

[nswst8]

MOOG rack took a dump yesterday. Put in a NAPA rack in, it's at Firestone now. we'll see how long this will last.

Funny how NAPA part number identifies with an A1-cardone part number. Yet they say NAPA does the rebuild.

[lostforawhile]

Shouldn't the filter prevent gunk from going through the pump?



If this happened to me, i'd start changing stuff lol. the fluid at least anyway. TBH I don't really care about the longevity of my power steering since I have lots of spare parts to fix whatever breaks. I wouldn't advise others to do what I do though, unless you live in a wreckers yard and enjoy working on your car lots :D

/thread jackwith these reservoirs being 25 years old and the filter being built in, there is no telling what condition that filter is,


MOOG rack took a dump yesterday. Put in a NAPA rack in, it's at Firestone now. we'll see how long this last.

Funny how NAPA part number idenities with an A1-cardone part number. Yet they say NAPA does the rebuild.what happened with the moog rack,thats unusual, they usually have really good parts. On my nappa rack it leaked for a very short time then quit leaking, i think the seals have to wear in or something

[DBMaster]

I asked my mechanic the filter question a while back. I said that the shop manual specifies replacing the reservoir any time you do any work on the P/S system. Since the reservoir is discontinued that's not possible. The reservoirs Honda started using in 1990 did not have the filter built in and the hose nipples are in different places. Of course, I'm sure you could make it work, or go with something custom like Lost has done. So, back to the question. He said that in over 30 years of working on Hondas he never replaced a reservoir. He recommended that I flush the filter with some solvent, which I did. I then let it dry and flushed the filter with P/S fluid. It seemed to flow plenty freely. I don't think that an inline magnetic filter would be a bad idea, either. ATP makes a nice compact one that fits the 3/8" rubber line. It is for an automatic transmission, but it would work just fine in this application.

http://www.atp-inc.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=3X6UC2wphsg%3d&tabid=81

IT's the JX-155. I installed one of these the last time I changed my transmission fluid. It takes up very little space compare to the Magnefine filter.

[nswst8]

The last three racks all leaked from the passenger side, so it has to do with the rebuild process. The reservoir flows freely.

If this rack fails I will get a rebuild directly from honda and see what happens with that one.

Mike, if you could call and find out where your mechanic got your rack from I would greatly appreciate it.

[lostforawhile]

there are a number of good metal power steering reservoirs in older Nissan's I believe and some other Japanese cars one of those would work just fine in these cars, and you could add one of the inline PS filters, I went complicated and used a spin on oil filter,but they make simple inline ones Snooze has one I believe

[Vanilla Sky]

Find a jobber that does good rebuilds. Don't bother with the parts store.

[lostforawhile]

there was someone who does really good rack rebuilds but they are expensive, I can't remember who it was,I guess if you plan on keeping the car it's worth the extra money

[DBMaster]

Danny said that my steering rack came from Worldpac (http://www.worldpac.com) which is in Newark, CA. He sources them elsewhere, though, depending upon availability. I agree 100% with Vanilla Sky, though. If you can find a local outfit that rebuild racks, that might be the way to go. I am not sure if Worldpac sells to consumers or not.

[DBMaster]

Not sure, but found this, also.

http://www.carsteering.com/addtocart/1989_Honda/Accord/Power_Steering_Rack/80-00529.html

I forgot to mention that Danny has also ordered from Majestic Honda. If you want the best possible rebuilt rack Honda might be the way to go, but cost...? Who knows. You probably have to call to find out because I can't figure out how to display it on their web site.

[obdriver6]

When we bought the my car, the rack was crap so we replaced it with an O'reilly one(Checker back then), we put trans fluid at first without any problem. I later had problems with the high pressure line so I replaced it but this time I added preston power steering fluid without flushing out the trans fluid. After that my pump started leaking, I fixed the problem and kept using preston. Then a while later the same pressure hose was leaking so this time I decided to drain as much of the contaminated power steering fluid as I could. As soon as I started the car, I could still see a bit of pink fluid in the reservoir so I just left it. I figured its like 90% preston and 10% trans fluid. While all this was happening, the rack never leaked and hasn't leaked to this day.

[MessyHonda]

Danny said that my steering rack came from Worldpac (http://www.worldpac.com) which is in Newark, CA. He sources them elsewhere, though, depending upon availability. I agree 100% with Vanilla Sky, though. If you can find a local outfit that rebuild racks, that might be the way to go. I am not sure if Worldpac sells to consumers or not.

my local napa auto parts can get parts from worldpac. they have a warehouse were you can just go to will call and pick up your parts.

[nswst8]

My local Honda dealer quoated me $264.00 + core ($100) if the NAPA one I just put in fails then I will get the Honda rebuilt rack.

I'll keep this car until the wheel fall off or my girls will send them to the junkyard
being semi retired I have the time to pull racks allday long. Money is not an issue.

Thanks for all the help guys.

[DBMaster]

I still don't get why people are jacking around with other fluids besides Honda fluid. Do you enjoy fixing leaks? You can buy the fluid at Wal Mart, Auto Zone, etc. It doesn't have to be made by Honda. It just has to be made FOR Honda. Yeah, it's a bit more expensive, but you can buy enough to fill the whole system from empty for about $10-12.

How much is your time and frustration worth?

[Vanilla Sky]

If you had read the link that I provided, the "Honda Approved" fluid kills racks, too. Just go to the dealership and pay the $.30 more.

[nswst8]

If this rack goes bad then while I'm at the dealership I will buy the honda fluid for the Honda rack.

I just don't have a Honda dealership near enough to justify the drive for power steering fluid.

[DBMaster]

Honda approved fluid kills racks? Now that's interesting. My first rack lost its integrity after about 200,000 miles. I tried to slow the leaks using an additive called Trans-X that had been recommended on the Car Talk forum - even for Honda P/S. Shortly after adding it my rack puked fluid all the way up my driveway while pulling into the garage. I used whatever brand of "Honda" fluid that Wal Mart carried with the rebuilt rack and it was still holding together after 150,000 miles. I do agree that it's not worth taking the chance. You can go to Honda or buy Honda fluid online. I guess it's cheap insurance.

[DBMaster]

Wow, Vanilla Sky, that link gives you quite a long story. I don't understand why Bardhal or Prestone would risk their reputation and lawsuits by selling product that says it is for Honda that ends up wrecking the system. Better safe than sorry, though. I never had any trouble with the aftermarket Honda fluids.

[lostforawhile]

Honda approved fluid kills racks? Now that's interesting. My first rack lost its integrity after about 200,000 miles. I tried to slow the leaks using an additive called Trans-X that had been recommended on the Car Talk forum - even for Honda P/S. Shortly after adding it my rack puked fluid all the way up my driveway while pulling into the garage. I used whatever brand of "Honda" fluid that Wal Mart carried with the rebuilt rack and it was still holding together after 150,000 miles. I do agree that it's not worth taking the chance. You can go to Honda or buy Honda fluid online. I guess it's cheap insurance.

any kind of aftermarket leak stop causes the seals to swell temporarily stopping the leak, I say temporarily because when it leaks again the seals will be in much worse shape then when you started,they all work the same,it softens the seals, it's supposed to be a temporary fix until you replace parts

[Dr_Snooz]

I wonder if you could use vegetable oil in the system. A light oil like canola would probably work very well and preserve the seals much longer.

[A18A]

I should try it when I get my power steering working again :D

[lostforawhile]

I wonder if you could use vegetable oil in the system. A light oil like canola would probably work very well and preserve the seals much longer.

the seals require a synthetic fluid, I'm not sure something like that would have the proper hydraulic fluid characteristics, I used the nappa brand of Honda fluid and I hadn't had any issues, if you fix all the leaks it shouldn't take much fluid at all once it's initially full

[DBMaster]

Yeah, I've used NAPA, Bardahl, and Prestone. Wal Mart carries the Prestone brand now. Never had a bit of trouble in 23 years using "non-OEM" fluids specifically designated for Honda. If you are going to end up with leaks caused by the fluid it will happen reasonably quickly.

[Dr_Snooz]

the seals require a synthetic fluid, I'm not sure something like that would have the proper hydraulic fluid characteristics, I used the nappa brand of Honda fluid and I hadn't had any issues, if you fix all the leaks it shouldn't take much fluid at all once it's initially full

They use canola for hydraulic applications already.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_fluid

http://www.ehow.com/list_7157562_ingredients-hydraulic-fluid_.html

I did a bunch of reading months ago on using it as a motor oil and it was superior to petro oil in almost every way: higher heat resistance, better lubrication, lower ash production. I'm beta testing it in my lawn tractor right now as a motor oil. When it comes time to change oil in the crankcase, I'll be putting it in there too. If nothing explodes, I'll start using it in the cars. If I can swing it later on, I'll start making my own fuel alcohol and then Big Oil can kiss my...

[Oldblueaccord]

If you had read the link that I provided, the "Honda Approved" fluid kills racks, too. Just go to the dealership and pay the $.30 more.

325k on the original with Bardyls Honda approved fluid.



wp

[gp02a0083]

looks like i got the same problem, the passenger side where the boot is on the rack is starting to leak. I've put in rebuilt units but the steering force is way different than the OEM rack. I looked at my factory manual, it looks like the seal can be replaced , but is it really worth it to have a shop rebuild it ?

[ecogabriel]

If this rack goes bad then while I'm at the dealership I will buy the honda fluid for the Honda rack.

I just don't have a Honda dealership near enough to justify the drive for power steering fluid.

Is the rack holding fine? What fluid are you using in it? I have used fluids from Bardahl and O'Reillys that are made specifically for Honda, and I have had no problem.

[nswst8]

Rack is still holding. I flushed it x4 with Oreilly's honda PS fluid according to the Honda manual, I believe that was the original problem, not flushing all the preserving fluid out completely.