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atkin68
06-06-2012, 11:22 AM
Hope someone can help me ID what's wrong with my 81 Accord. I have had trouble with the idle ever since I've owned it - tends to idle too low and die when it's not choked. But it hasn't been too big of a problem and I've adjusted to it.

However, Monday night on the way home the car just started chugging like it was running out of gas. I was low on gas at the time so I thought that was it. Put gas in it, and the problem persisted and got worse. No power under load, until about 3500 rpm, and even then it chugs badly. When I choke it and start it up, it now races up immediately to like 4500 or 5000 rpm. Before it would go to like 3000.

I've replaced the fuel filter, fuel pump, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and air filter. I'm getting spark all the way around, and I know I'm getting fuel. I'm wondering if it's the carb, but I have never touched one so have no experience diagnosing it. Also wondering about an exhaust blockage, but it doesn't seem that way.

At this point I'm lost. Anyone have any thoughts? Really appreciate any input. Thanks.

Dave

Dr_Snooz
06-06-2012, 06:16 PM
Do you have sight glasses on the side of your carb? If so, check the float adjustment. Also check the timing. It sounds like a bad carb to me, but I'm no expert. FWIW, mere mortals do not tempt the gods by trying to rebuild these carbs.

lostscotiaguy
06-07-2012, 12:58 AM
mere mortals do not tempt the gods by trying to rebuild these carbs.

He speaks the truth!
I partook of the quest to conquer the god "3Bbbl Keihin" and to make it submit to my will and do my bidding. It was an 8 year battle that left me scarred both mentally and financially. Ultimately when my valiant effort had reached it's ultimate zenith, and I thought I had victory within my grasp, it was ripped from my hands as the gods "Smog" and "Stoichiometry" openly mocked me and rendered my very soul from me. It was only then, within the bowels of a plane of hell called "The-damn-car-wont-even-run-AT-ALL-anymore" that I released the shackles that imprisoned me, and found solace in a NEW god. It's name was "Weber 32/36".
I have been reborn anew....and now my car finally f***in runs properly.

Sorry guys.... I gotta stop staying up so late...I get a little carried away. :facepalm:

atkin68
06-07-2012, 05:39 AM
Thanks for your thoughts guys. I was thinking about the carb yesterday, and I'm definitely too intimidated by that job to consider jumping in. If I replaced it rather than try to fix it, what is the degree of difficulty on just swapping it the webber as has been suggested?

Last night a friend suggested it could be the vacuum advance diaphragm on the distributor. So I pulled the distributor and in the process of trying to get the vacuum advance off I noticed two loose components inside the distributor: one was a plastic spacer/bumper thing that goes in the space beneath one of the tabs on the cap, the other was one of the two bushings beneath the igniter unit. Looking closer I realized that the ring/gasket between the distributor frame and the cap, which I see in the diagram in the shop manual, was missing altogether, as well as the other rubber spacer thing (i don't know what to call those). In the diagram it looks as if those bumpers are held in place by that gasket, and my guess is that with the gasket missing it rattled loose and did some damage inside the distributor? As for the bushing, I can only guess that the screw passing through it rattled loose and allowed it to slip out. At first I thought those two items might be inhibiting the movement of the vacuum advance arm, so I put them back in place hoping I'd found my diagnosis. Not to be.

To make sure, I took the vacuum advance off and gave it a suck - I was able to repeatedly move the arm in and out with suction, so I've eliminated the vacuum advance as a cause. Now I'm thinking that with the missing gasket, and floating objects inside the distributor housing all that time, the distributor is damaged and it's the problem. It can't be the igniter cause that would be a no-start situation, and I've eliminated the vacuum advance. Maybe the centrifugal apparatus is gummed up/damaged and can't do it's thing?

The other thing I'm hearing is a prominent hiss around the carb but I can't see anything that's disconnected or cracked/broken. Still it's obvious there's something sucking and maybe that means that down the line there's no suction on the vacuum advance diaphragm? I don't want to buy a new distributor until I eliminate the possibility that a vacuum leak is my real problem.

Dr_Snooz
06-07-2012, 09:14 PM
Yes, a vacuum leak could be the problem. It doesn't sound like the distributor is bad, but I'll let an actual 1g owner weigh in on that.

lostscotiaguy
06-07-2012, 09:38 PM
Re: Installing the weber.
This is a great post from a friend of mine that explains everything. I did mine slightly different due to my unwillingess to cut my throttle cable (It's a long story why...) and I used a different setup for my throttle return spring.

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347950


As for your potential vacuum leak, have you tried actually grabbing the carb (While the air filter box is removed) and trying to push/pull/monkey with it while the car is running? If messing with it effects your idle you may be lucky and just need to grab a 10MM wrench to tighten it down a little. I've had this problem at one point. Another way to check for vac leaks is to take a bottle of carb cleaner and give a little shot of it in different areas of your engine bay, your idle will bump up momentarily if you spray near a vacuum leak

As for your distributor, I recently rebuilt mine successfully and it's all pretty simple in there. As long as your centrifugal advance looks clean and it's well lubed I used (PB Bblaster or WD40 is obviously good) I would imagine you're OK. The only other thing I think you may worry about it that the stator and ???? (I can't think of what those tabs are called)...are straight,and not chewed up. If it rotates freely when it's re-assembled and If everything else is salvageable I'd just replace the cap and rotor and throw it back in. I will say that I highly doubt you'll find an exact fit replacement for that gasket between the cap and the distributor itself. I couldn't even find one from a Honda dealership. It IS just a seal anyhow so I just bought a multipurpose rubber ring/gasket, it still leaves a little gap near the clips that hold the cap on but it's sufficient to do the job.
So I guess I would just try the carb cleaner trick first to find any vacuum leaks.

Anyhow good luck and keep us posted on your progress!






I don't want to buy a new distributor until I eliminate the possibility that a vacuum leak is my real problem.

atkin68
06-08-2012, 11:25 AM
Re: Installing the weber.
This is a great post from a friend of mine that explains everything. I did mine slightly different due to my unwillingess to cut my throttle cable (It's a long story why...) and I used a different setup for my throttle return spring.

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347950


As for your potential vacuum leak, have you tried actually grabbing the carb (While the air filter box is removed) and trying to push/pull/monkey with it while the car is running? If messing with it effects your idle you may be lucky and just need to grab a 10MM wrench to tighten it down a little. I've had this problem at one point. Another way to check for vac leaks is to take a bottle of carb cleaner and give a little shot of it in different areas of your engine bay, your idle will bump up momentarily if you spray near a vacuum leak

As for your distributor, I recently rebuilt mine successfully and it's all pretty simple in there. As long as your centrifugal advance looks clean and it's well lubed I used (PB Bblaster or WD40 is obviously good) I would imagine you're OK. The only other thing I think you may worry about it that the stator and ???? (I can't think of what those tabs are called)...are straight,and not chewed up. If it rotates freely when it's re-assembled and If everything else is salvageable I'd just replace the cap and rotor and throw it back in. I will say that I highly doubt you'll find an exact fit replacement for that gasket between the cap and the distributor itself. I couldn't even find one from a Honda dealership. It IS just a seal anyhow so I just bought a multipurpose rubber ring/gasket, it still leaves a little gap near the clips that hold the cap on but it's sufficient to do the job.
So I guess I would just try the carb cleaner trick first to find any vacuum leaks.

Anyhow good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

Thanks Lostscociaguy. It's interesting what you said about pushing on the carb, cause a couple nights ago I was pushing down on the intake side of the air filter can and it lowered the idle when I did. Would climb back up again when I stopped pushing. But I had no idea what to think of that. I will take the filter can off and see if those 10mm bolts are loose. Planning to try the carb cleaner method as well.

The distributor is turning, but I'm questioning whether the centrifugal advance is working right cause things seemed pretty dry and gummed up inside. I'll give it a good cleaning and lube and try again.

Great input and I really appreciate it.

lostscotiaguy
06-08-2012, 08:55 PM
The distributor is turning, but I'm questioning whether the centrifugal advance is working right cause things seemed pretty dry and gummed up inside.
Great input and I really appreciate it.

Re Gummed Up advance: Yeah, when I did mine (Which was kinda gummy as well) I just gave it some good shots of brake cleaner, and brushed it out a little before a few shots of PB Blaster. There IS a way to twist it/turn it that lets you check the "Advance action" and make sure the mechanism at least moves freely. I can't remember what the trick was, but I'm sure you've found it, or can figure it out easily enough.

As for vacuum leaks at the base of the carb, sounds like you found your culprit. Your idle will bump up if you start running lean, so it sounds like you've definitely got a leak there. As for my personal experience, my similar leak was a bit of a pain in the ass... Unfortunately it wasn't the seam between the carb and the manifold that was leaking, it was actually the seam that separates the top part of the carb from the bottom part. Sadly you need to remove the whole carb in order to get "Underneath it" to tighten the screws that hold the 2 halves (Top and bottom) together. With a little monkeying around you should be able to see if the whole carb is loose or whether it's just a leak between the 2 halves.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that it's between the carb and manifold. If it IS between the 2 halves the task of taking off the whole carb may seem a little daunting, but it's not TOO difficult if you take your time and really pay attention to how everything hooks together before diving in. PLUS, assuming you're not in Cali, things should be much easier:

http://imageshack.us/f/192/ihatekeihin.jpg/

As for helping? You're more than welcome to any advice I can provide... I'm glad to help in any way I can to help keep more old school Hondas on the road, plus I get to pay it forward. The great people on this site have been an awesome source of help to me (Shout out to Dr. Snooz!), and I'm just glad I can contribute to "the cause".

chuck d
06-09-2012, 10:32 AM
sounds like a loose carb ... check that and then the floats, then even the fuel filters too.
and check this... http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38161

atkin68
06-09-2012, 06:41 PM
Re Gummed Up advance: Yeah, when I did mine (Which was kinda gummy as well) I just gave it some good shots of brake cleaner, and brushed it out a little before a few shots of PB Blaster. There IS a way to twist it/turn it that lets you check the "Advance action" and make sure the mechanism at least moves freely. I can't remember what the trick was, but I'm sure you've found it, or can figure it out easily enough.

As for vacuum leaks at the base of the carb, sounds like you found your culprit. Your idle will bump up if you start running lean, so it sounds like you've definitely got a leak there. As for my personal experience, my similar leak was a bit of a pain in the ass... Unfortunately it wasn't the seam between the carb and the manifold that was leaking, it was actually the seam that separates the top part of the carb from the bottom part. Sadly you need to remove the whole carb in order to get "Underneath it" to tighten the screws that hold the 2 halves (Top and bottom) together. With a little monkeying around you should be able to see if the whole carb is loose or whether it's just a leak between the 2 halves.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that it's between the carb and manifold. If it IS between the 2 halves the task of taking off the whole carb may seem a little daunting, but it's not TOO difficult if you take your time and really pay attention to how everything hooks together before diving in. PLUS, assuming you're not in Cali, things should be much easier:

http://imageshack.us/f/192/ihatekeihin.jpg/

As for helping? You're more than welcome to any advice I can provide... I'm glad to help in any way I can to help keep more old school Hondas on the road, plus I get to pay it forward. The great people on this site have been an awesome source of help to me (Shout out to Dr. Snooz!), and I'm just glad I can contribute to "the cause".

Boy I'm glad you posted this last post. I think you saved me some searching. I cleaned up the dist, and gave a suck on the vacuum advance with my lips and could see and feel it's working. I don't see any other missing parts, so I dropped it back in and the car starts. But it dies right away.

So, that was yesterday. This afternoon, just now actually, I took off the air cleaner, etc and started pushing on the carb. The play in it was even more pronounced without the air cleaner on top. Lots of play. So I'm looking for 10mm bolts and I see them, but there's no movement there. I've never looked at the carb before so I don't even really know what I'm looking at. But as I play with it and look around at different angles I find a really serious gap opening and closing as I play with it. I fire it up and spray some carb cleaner and you know what happened.

So I've found at least one big problem, and I expect it will turn out to be my big problem. But I can't see how to tighten it. So I come in here ready to start searching for tips online for what's going on, check this thread, and here's your post telling me exactly what I'm seeing. It's bad news but it's nice to know what it is and that someone else solved it.

I'm very daunted by diving into it, but I don't see any other option. If you can post some more detailed tips I'd be obliged. BTW, if your Honda is the one in your avatar pic, I believe we have the same car. 81 HB in blue. Love this car. Just rolled it over 300K a few weeks ago and I'm relieved that even though it sound like a difficult fix, it's not done for.

Thanks again and I'll let you know how it goes.

Dave

lostscotiaguy
06-09-2012, 09:10 PM
http://i.imgur.com/XtTIh.jpg
The "Air Horn"/TOP Piece is mounted to the "Float Body" with 4 big Phillips-head screws, underneath. They go through the bottom piece and screw upwards into the top piece, forcing you to remove the whole carb to tighten them. This part of the fix is obviously the EASY part but of course just getting to it is a big f***in hassle. :deadhorse:

As for removing the carb it looks tricky but it's not too bad. Remember to be careful with the fuel lines though! I'd try to do it all in one day, so you can put it back together while it's in all fresh in your head. You may want to pick up some extra vacuum hose "Just in case". I'd just take some good pics of each side before taking the hoses off, it should practically fall back together since most of the hoses will hold their shape.
Aside from a bunch of hoses the only other thing to hassle with is the Throttle cable, but it's pretty self explanatory.

Here's some random pics that may help:
http://i.imgur.com/peiYC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/a0isl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ccUev.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ce53z.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xaL5N.jpg Sorry it's sideways!

Hazwan
06-10-2012, 12:17 AM
http://i.imgur.com/xaL5N.jpg

tf am i looking at hahahha

lostforawhile
06-10-2012, 06:30 AM
http://i.imgur.com/xaL5N.jpg

tf am i looking at hahahha

underhood vacuum diagram

atkin68
06-10-2012, 06:56 AM
haha! i'm looking all through the shop manual for detail that will help me reconnect everything after i start this and it's right there under the hood. thanks guys. other commitments today so i'll have to try and come home early from work monday or tues and block out the rest of my night to try and do this. i'm very grateful to have gotten your input and i'll let you know how it goes.

dave

lostscotiaguy
06-10-2012, 11:26 AM
Hazwan: What you're looking at sums up one of the reason why I hate California Smog Laws!!! LMAO

Atkin: Yeah, please keep us posted on your progress! I don't know if you live in CA or not, but if you DON'T you will thankfully have a few less vacuum hoses to deal with. I may also post another pic or 2 on here later today. I moved over a month ago and I can't beleive I STILL haven't been able to dig out my Camera from anywhere. And yes, believe it or not, despite the fact that even my f***in DOG has one, I do NOT have a cell phone.... oh the shame! :crying:

I wish I did though, despite the fact that I'd still have almost no friends, I'd at least be able to post more pics for my fellow 1st Gen addicts!! LOL
:rockon:

obdriver6
06-10-2012, 11:03 PM
He speaks the truth!
I partook of the quest to conquer the god "3Bbbl Keihin" and to make it submit to my will and do my bidding. It was an 8 year battle that left me scarred both mentally and financially. Ultimately when my valiant effort had reached it's ultimate zenith, and I thought I had victory within my grasp, it was ripped from my hands as the gods "Smog" and "Stoichiometry" openly mocked me and rendered my very soul from me. It was only then, within the bowels of a plane of hell called "The-damn-car-wont-even-run-AT-ALL-anymore" that I released the shackles that imprisoned me, and found solace in a NEW god. It's name was "Weber 32/36".
I have been reborn anew....and now my car finally f***in runs properly.

Sorry guys.... I gotta stop staying up so late...I get a little carried away. :facepalm:

Where's the "like" button when you need one! lol

atkin68
06-11-2012, 09:02 PM
Well, a night of emotional extremes. I thought I had this solved after discovering a VERY significant vacuum leak getting some tips on how to solve it. Tonight I launched into the task of tightening the screws that hold the top and bottom section of the carb together from the bottom. Took lots of pics, printed out diagrams, thought it all through, and dove in. I was able to get access to the screws while disconnecting a minimum of hoses, etc., and it was not nearly as difficult as I expected. In the process, I discovered a couple of badly damaged hoses that I couldn't see till I had it all apart. I bought some new hose and replaced those, tightened down the loose screws (which were unbelievably loose), and felt a huge sense of anticipation as I put it all back together. I thought I was not only going to solve my chugging/backfiring/powerless problem under load, but really revolutionize the performance of my accord with all of those vacuum leaks discovered and repaired.

I fired it up, and it was terrible. Then, I noticed a hose I failed to reattach - whew. Fix it, fire it back up. Sounds ok, idle is better than before. Moment of truth, I get in and put it in gear and hit the gas - pathetic. Just like it can't breath at all. I've replaced the fuel filter, fuel pump, cap, rotor, wires, plugs, air filter, and now repaired three serious vacuum leaks around the carb, thoroughly cleaned and lubed the distributor, and while the car drives a little differently, I obviously still have not solved whatever catastrophic problem caused my car to suddenly start chugging while driving home early last week. I feel truly lost.

The other thing that happened that really worries me is that after letting it idle for a while it started to smoke from the engine compartment and also inside the cabin, apparently from the transmission. I don't know what that means. I'm worried I've destroyed my car.

I recorded a little video so you guys could hear the sound coming from the tail-pipe, cause it sounds really wrong but I don't know what it means. Thought it might drive some more ideas. I'm not sure how to get it posted so it may not be tonight. Thanks for everybody's help.

Dave

Dr_Snooz
06-12-2012, 04:50 PM
Weber time.








No seriously, a lot of times what happens is that a small vacuum leak develops. The owner doesn't know what it is or care and the carb gets tweaked to compensate. As the leak gets worse, the adjustments continue until you have a carb that just won't run after the leak has been fixed. You might need to perform some minor carb adjustments to get it back into top form. Of course, on that carb, touching anything will bring the furies from hell's blackest depths swooping down to wreak their vengeance upon you. *Crossing self now*

Anyhoo, as far as I'm concerned, if your carb has site glasses on the side, then it's possible to rebuild it. I have. If it doesn't, just save yourself the time and money and throw it in the trash now.

Dr_Snooz
06-12-2012, 05:11 PM
It's nice to know that all that time I spent in the driveway swearing and throwing tools trying to rebuild those cursed, infernal carbs gave me knowledge that is now helping others. LOL

atkin68
06-12-2012, 05:18 PM
Weber time.








No seriously, a lot of times what happens is that a small vacuum leak develops. The owner doesn't know what it is or care and the carb gets tweaked to compensate. As the leak gets worse, the adjustments continue until you have a carb that just won't run after the leak has been fixed. You might need to perform some minor carb adjustments to get it back into top form. Of course, on that carb, touching anything will bring the furies from hell's blackest depths swooping down to wreak their vengeance upon you. *Crossing self now*

Anyhoo, as far as I'm concerned, if your carb has site glasses on the side, then it's possible to rebuild it. I have. If it doesn't, just save yourself the time and money and throw it in the trash now.
Thanks Dr. Snooz. The thing I'm struggling with is that the problems in my carb have obviously been there a long time. But the inoperable condition I encountered went from non existent to inoperable in just a few moments, maybe in an instant. So, especially after correcting those leaks, to have it behave essentially the same way, I just have a real doubt in my mind about whether the carb is what created the inoperable condition.

I'm also really concerned and puzzled by the smoke coming from the tranny and back of the engine after idling last night. That's never happened before and it happened immediately after I repaired the carb. Makes me think I put something together wrong. I don't know.

I do see the logic of what you're saying, and obviously I don't know what the hell I'm doing myself or I would have this car fixed by now. I'm going to poke around the exhaust system a bit, and double check that I reconnected everything correctly as next steps. Everyone's input is still greatly coveted.

Thanks,
Dave

lostscotiaguy
06-12-2012, 07:30 PM
Weber time.


Of course, on that carb, touching anything will bring the furies from hell's blackest depths swooping down to wreak their vengeance upon you. *Crossing self now*




:rockon::cheers:
Hilarious and True.

lostscotiaguy
06-12-2012, 07:40 PM
Oh, and I know it's a long shot, but have you tried redoing, or fiddling with your timing since replacing it? It maybe be a doubtful suspect but it's possible... especially considering how small the timing range is 2 Degrees off TDC (plus or minus).

Oh, related question: You run a weber right Snooz? Do you need to have your timing as retarded as possible? That's the only way mine seems to work properly and I'd seen mention somewhere of that being common, but I wanted to see if you had to do the same thing as I did.

Dr_Snooz
06-13-2012, 02:39 PM
I'm FI, actually, so I can't help on the Weber questions.

Timing is a good thing to check. My guess is that the distributor seal needs to be changed. That could cause your transmission smoke. It's a few dollars from the dealer.

With my last Keihin, the car drove just fine. I fired it up one morning and headed out of the driveway to go to work and it stopped dead in the driveway. It happened just that fast.

atkin68
06-13-2012, 07:16 PM
tonight i took the air cleaner off again just to look for mistakes. looked down the middle of the carb inadvertently and noticed something that didn't look right. i don't know what it should look like in there, but that black thingy looks wrong and looks to me like a gasket that maybe got out of place when the top and bottom were loose and is now pinched in there somehow. any thoughts?

Edit: sorry i don't know how to upload photos properly. if you right click the icons below you can open them.

http://dflett.com/?attachment_id=347
http://dflett.com/?attachment_id=346

thanks!
dave

Dr_Snooz
06-13-2012, 10:17 PM
No pics?

lostscotiaguy
06-13-2012, 10:28 PM
Sorry to laugh, but YUP looks like you've an issue with a rogue rubber gasket.

atkin68
06-14-2012, 05:39 AM
Sorry to laugh, but YUP looks like you've an issue with a rogue rubber gasket.

Yeah I think you kind of have to laugh. If I understood more about carbs in general I probably would have looked down there before I took the thing off to tighten it. Though if I'm not mistaken, I think that thing is pinched between the gap that I closed when I tightened the screws from underneath, so it may not have been in that position until I monkeyed with it. Anyway, I guess I'll have to take the whole thing off and find out which gasket that is. Whatever it is, it's cut, so I guess I'll have to either buy a rebuild kit to get the part, or replace the whole carb, which I don't think I can do. Anybody have ideas on what that gasket is? I guess I'll know soon enough.

Thanks everyone,
D

lostscotiaguy
06-14-2012, 09:03 PM
I'm betting that happened when you tightened up those screws, and on second look I think that's not a rubber gasket, but the main one between the top and bottom pieces of the carb. Another bit of a pain to get to (A little more complicated in some senses) at least the top part comes off without needing to remove the whole carb. This piece only needs to be unscrewed from the top, but you need to be careful with the choke and throttle linkage on the passengers side of the carb and the accelerator pump arm on the driver's side.

Here's the fun part (NOT) I think you can only get a replacement gasket as part of a set.
2 Examples: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/x,carcode,1166611,parttype,5964

Not SUPER Pricey but still a bit much for just 1 gasket. I know if I bought the set I'd be tempted to do a rebuild (Which I did, and regretted it ever since). If I were you I'd only replace what's needed.

HOWEVER: If you can grab a good pic of that gasket I might actually have a spare. I still have a few from when I did my own rebuild, and there was 3 different variations on the same gasket in the kit. Assuming your car isn't a California model, I may have just the gasket you need. Hardly an expensive item to send to someone else....

lostscotiaguy
06-14-2012, 09:10 PM
DANG IT!!! You know what, I'm sorry to say this but I took a third look and I think you're right.... it DOES look like the rubber gasket found in the gap between the 2 pieces you just fixed. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news (But in a way it's better news). You'll still find the piece you'll need in one of those kits, but I don't think I have any spares of that gasket. Actually, you know what...give me a pic of it anyway so I can be sure... I HAVE hung on to a lot of random Carb-Related bits so it's certainly worth a peek.

Dr_Snooz
06-14-2012, 09:20 PM
No pics for me. :(

atkin68
06-14-2012, 09:23 PM
DANG IT!!! You know what, I'm sorry to say this but I took a third look and I think you're right.... it DOES look like the rubber gasket found in the gap between the 2 pieces you just fixed. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news (But in a way it's better news). You'll still find the piece you'll need in one of those kits, but I don't think I have any spares of that gasket. Actually, you know what...give me a pic of it anyway so I can be sure... I HAVE hung on to a lot of random Carb-Related bits so it's certainly worth a peek.

That's very gracious LSG, Once I get it apart I'll send a pic of what I have. My plan is to go tomorrow night to the Honda wrecking yard across the river from my home, pull a carb for $20, and take it apart so I know what I'm getting into and get a little practice. I suppose there's a slim chance that the gasket from that one could replace my bad one, but it's likely to be bad as well I would think. I've been expecting to have to just buy the rebuild kit and use what I need. I'm not doing the whole rebuild, that's certain.

lostscotiaguy
06-15-2012, 10:38 AM
I've been expecting to have to just buy the rebuild kit and use what I need. I'm not doing the whole rebuild, that's certain.

Well, hopefully you'll get lucky and it will just be one of these gaskets:


http://i.imgur.com/LJfjx.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FWx7W.jpg
I also showed the spacer that these gaskets mate up to, There's one on each side of it. Let me know if you change your mind about wanting those gaskets....the ones I have here are new.

atkin68
06-18-2012, 05:46 AM
LSG, you've got a PM. That's the gasket alright. I guess when the screws got loose it got sucked into the barrel. When I tried to pull it out, I found it was pinched in that butterfly plate (or whatever it's called). No wonder it all went haywire.

atkin68
06-26-2012, 07:28 AM
Update:

Got the gaskets pictured below last night, very generously provided by LSG. MANY THANKS. When I went in to replace the gasket, I confirmed that the gastket I tried to use from the '79 was indeed NOT seated properly and left a gap. I took my time and got the replacement from LSG in correctly without having to remove the trickier attachments to the carb. Got it all back together, turned the key.....battery dead from sitting for a week and being pretty old.

Put the charger on it, came back an hour later, fired it up. Huge difference. Chugging/Bucking is gone under load. But there's still no power. I was able to drive it around town for a test, but there's just no acceleration or power under load. And after 10 minutes, it just heated up like hell again. I have no idea what that's about. I'm really concerned that in all of the work I've done, I messed something up, crossed up a couple tubes, got some debris into the works, I don't know.

Tonight I'm going to do the timing and make sure it's right. I can still hear a hiss, somewhere in there, so I guess that's the next thing I'll try to identify. The gasket definitely made a huge difference, and it's nice to know I solves at least some part of the problem. HUGE thanks again to LSG for sending the gasket.

lostscotiaguy
06-26-2012, 11:54 PM
Glad I could help...but sad you're still not mobile. :hmph:
Am I wrong or has this car been sitting for a while?

3 questions for ya: Have you driven the car while it's been considered "Normal"? I don't know your history with the car I.E. Is it new to you? or is it your "Old Bessie" that you've had for a while? I'm just curious because you mention no power under load and I'm curious (if it IS new to you) that you may be confusing "gutless" as being "running improperly". If you ARE quite familiar with how she runs normally, please don't be offended by the question.

Question 2: RE Overheating: Do you know what shape your thermostat is in?

Question 3: RE Chugging and bucking: What shape is your gas in? has it sat for long?

atkin68
06-27-2012, 06:41 AM
Glad I could help...but sad you're still not mobile. :hmph:
Am I wrong or has this car been sitting for a while?

3 questions for ya: Have you driven the car while it's been considered "Normal"? I don't know your history with the car I.E. Is it new to you? or is it your "Old Bessie" that you've had for a while? I'm just curious because you mention no power under load and I'm curious (if it IS new to you) that you may be confusing "gutless" as being "running improperly". If you ARE quite familiar with how she runs normally, please don't be offended by the question.

Question 2: RE Overheating: Do you know what shape your thermostat is in?

Question 3: RE Chugging and bucking: What shape is your gas in? has it sat for long?

Great questions.

1. I bought this car about two years ago from the original owner. It's been my main vehicle ever since except when I'm driving the whole family around. I know it really well. Having said that, there's zero question in my mind that the condition I'm experiencing would be identified as a MAJOR problem by even the most clueless, inexperienced driver. It's great the bucking is gone, but between the overheating and loss of power I'm beginning to suspect an exhaust problem. Had a clogged catalytic on the family car once and the effect was stunning.

2. No idea about the thermostat. Never EVER had an issue with overheating before this episode. I will check it.

3. I wondered about the gas too. In fact when this started I thought I was out of gas and stopped to get more. So the gas is fresh.

Here's one thought that occurred to me: If, when the screws from under the carb shook loose and that gasket got sucked into the carb and pinched in the plate, a piece of that gasket got into the works somewhere downstream - where could it end up? Could it explain what's happening if a piece of the gasket got lodged in a valve, for example? The gasket did not come out whole, and I could not account for all of it. If a small piece got pulled through, where would it go? Probably making myself look monumentally stupid with this question, but what the hell.

Thanks,
D

lostscotiaguy
06-27-2012, 05:34 PM
If a small piece got pulled through, where would it go? Probably making myself look monumentally stupid with this question, but what the hell.

D

No stupid questions.... just unanswered ones.
Welllll....unless they're like: "When is green?" or "How do you tomato suitcase?" "Which way should I turn the hedgehog matrix??"

I'd imagine if you had it stuck in one of your intake valves you'd have backfiring through the intake and it would probably be pretty consistent.

If it made it past the intake valve and into the combustion chamber I imagine it would either burn off or just turn to some kind of gummy crap in your combustion chamber. Checked your plugs since the problem?
A: How they look in general.
B: How they look compared to one another. Any odd ones out with different coloring on the tip?

If it had somehow just "jumped the gap" and managed to get into the exhaust valve I also imagine it would burn off. If not then it would be backfiring out the back (also on a fairly consistent basis)
I guess over all I wouldn't rule out that the chunk of gasket DIDN"T just go into your intake, I just don't think it would cause any long term damage...it certainly in't a desirable thing but I really don't think it would give you the troubles your having.

You mentioned adjusting the timing and I'm wondering if you've done that again. these cars are pretty fussy with their timing it seems. I know a LOT of older cars can usually be adjusted + or - 10 to 15 degrees. Due to the CVCC (I THINK) these ones are fussier, and only have a range of + or - 2 degrees Before or after TDC.

Another random question: Are you sure she's firing on all cylinders? If you can get her idling, try just going through while she's running and disconnect a plug wire (just one at a time obviously) then reconnect it. Do this for each wire and make sure the idle stumbles when you unplug each one...if it doesn't then you've found your problem cylinder.
At this point my help diagnosing your problem seems like just shots in the dark, but anyone that wants my 2 cents is always welcome to it.
Just remember this one: Fuel, Air, Fire. If the car wont run properly..it's a problem with one of the 3. Keep me posted!

Oh, and that clogged exhaust idea....hmmmmm.....

atkin68
06-27-2012, 06:30 PM
how about a tiny dose of good news, related to one of your comments: i did redo the timing tonight and when i got it right, the car was idling at a level that it has always died at. i thought sure it WAS dying, but it kept humming along. when i checked the rpms, it was at about 700-800, and the timing was good. this is good news because i have never been able to get it to idle below 2K without dying. this tells me that my past issues with the idle must have been related to the massive vacuum leak from the loose screws in the carb, and that my fix was a success.

now back to the regularly scheduled bad news: still have no power, and it REALLY sounds like it's missing, but it always has and i have never had trouble with power. i have also tried that process of removing one plug wire at a time to no avail. still, i will try it again tonight.

i believe i still have a vacuum leak somewhere but can't locate it. i'm hoping that my current problem is that now that i've fixed the BIG leak, something else that was compensating for it just needs to be adjusted. but let's face it, at the moment i'm lost. more tomorrow....or maybe later tonight.

thanks again,
d

atkin68
06-27-2012, 08:38 PM
some more observations from session two with the accord tonight:

1. took off one plug wire at a time tonight to see if one cylinder was bad. results on cylinders one and four: idle dropped significantly but engine did not die. results on two and three: idle jumped up significantly. is that normal, i would have expected the same effect on all cylinders.

2. i let the engine idle till it started to heat up significantly, and the fan never came on. that can't be good and must be related to the overheating. gonna dig into that.

Dr_Snooz
06-27-2012, 09:11 PM
When was your last tune up? When was the last time you serviced the cooling system?

atkin68
06-28-2012, 09:31 PM
it's fixed guys. i don't think i have the balls to admit what i did in the process of trying to "fix" it that actually kept it from having power after i fixed the carb - which was the real problem all along. after the carb was fixed, i still didn't have power, but only because i made a mistake the very first day i was trying to diagnose the problem.

i also found another vacuum leak tonight using the carb cleaner method, and it appears to be a the intake manifold. i don't know what's going to develop from that, but it drives better than ever at the moment so i'm back to having a functioning commuter which is priority one.

somewhere in the process, the fan stopped coming on, so i'm overheating a bit when it idles too long. but when i drive it cools down. trying to figure out the fan problem now. i disconnected the leads from the thermoswitch, put a jumper across them, and the fan came on. so i guess i need to replace the thermoswitch.

with the carb problem corrected, it idles properly for the first time since i have owned it. i'm pretty happy about that. and very grateful for everyone's suggestions and especially lostscotiaguy's gracious donation of the gasket i needed.

lostscotiaguy
06-28-2012, 09:36 PM
Idle goes UP when plug is unhooked? Damn.... 2 and 3...I'm going out on a limb here but are you sure your Cylinder #2 & 3 plug wires are in the right order on the distributor?
If 3 & 2 are switched it would certainly explain the power loss and overheating (I think) as well.


INFO:
Distributor cap should have a mark on the side, showing which one is plug number 1.
Distributor rotates COUNTER-Clockwise.
If you had them set for Clockwise rotation it would explain your problem, cylinder 1 and 4 would still fire in the right order.
Firing order is 1,3,4,2.
Cylinder #1 is the closest one to the "Pulley side" of the engine (Driver's side)
I REALLY hope this is your problem, cause otherwise I'm quite puzzled by this one.

ORRRR: It's a BIG stretch:
I could almost see your plug gaps almost having a similar effect...but that's a BIG F***IN stretch, your gap would have to be WAY the F*** off (Pardon my French) in fact I'm not 100% they COULD be that far off.
Standard Plug = NGK B6EB-L11
or Nippon Denso ND W21ES-L11
Plug gap= 1-1.1MM (.039-.043")

Side Note: If I get "too basic" with my info/instructions, please don't be insulted, as I said I'm not 100% sure about how knowledgeable you are so I just like to err on the side of caution and break s**t down and explain it as best I can.
I'd rather be told about something I already know than have people make assumptions about what I know and leave out details.

I'll be waiting to hear back! This has been a good mental exercise over the last few days.

atkin68
06-29-2012, 08:00 AM
Idle goes UP when plug is unhooked? Damn.... 2 and 3...I'm going out on a limb here but are you sure your Cylinder #2 & 3 plug wires are in the right order on the distributor?
If 3 & 2 are switched it would certainly explain the power loss and overheating (I think) as well.


INFO:
Distributor cap should have a mark on the side, showing which one is plug number 1.
Distributor rotates COUNTER-Clockwise.
If you had them set for Clockwise rotation it would explain your problem, cylinder 1 and 4 would still fire in the right order.
Firing order is 1,3,4,2.
Cylinder #1 is the closest one to the "Pulley side" of the engine (Driver's side)
I REALLY hope this is your problem, cause otherwise I'm quite puzzled by this one.

ORRRR: It's a BIG stretch:
I could almost see your plug gaps almost having a similar effect...but that's a BIG F***IN stretch, your gap would have to be WAY the F*** off (Pardon my French) in fact I'm not 100% they COULD be that far off.
Standard Plug = NGK B6EB-L11
or Nippon Denso ND W21ES-L11
Plug gap= 1-1.1MM (.039-.043")

Side Note: If I get "too basic" with my info/instructions, please don't be insulted, as I said I'm not 100% sure about how knowledgeable you are so I just like to err on the side of caution and break s**t down and explain it as best I can.
I'd rather be told about something I already know than have people make assumptions about what I know and leave out details.

I'll be waiting to hear back! This has been a good mental exercise over the last few days.

hahaha! that's exactly what i didn't have the balls to admit, lsg. the first day the car was acting up i stopped at an autozone store and the clerk printed out the firing order and when we looked at the car together the clerk said 2 and 3 were crossed, so we switched them. after the carb got fixed and the problem changed but there was still no power, i kept rechecking the plug wires but, all on the assumption that the rotor went clockwise. i took the cap off last night and spun it and voila, i knew what was wrong. switched the wires back and now my car is running better than it ever has.

still got some stuff to work out, but i can drive now. thanks again for all your help!

lostscotiaguy
06-29-2012, 03:30 PM
Great News Man!
:cheers:

Let me know if you run into any more troubles, I'll be more than willing to help. My diagnosis of problems USUALLY works for other people's cars, but seemingly never my own.
Oh...and got any pics of your machine?

atkin68
07-22-2012, 11:57 AM
Great News Man!
:cheers:

Let me know if you run into any more troubles, I'll be more than willing to help. My diagnosis of problems USUALLY works for other people's cars, but seemingly never my own.
Oh...and got any pics of your machine?

sorry for the long delay in response man. here's a shot of the 81. this car does it all for me.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=393670927361576&set=a.115945205134151.16370.100001560175141&type=1&theater

lostscotiaguy
07-23-2012, 07:43 PM
:hmph:

Link doesn't work....
:confused:

Hondanator
08-23-2020, 02:50 PM
Bro, bro this is exactly what was wrong with my shit! Thank you.