Medusa build

[fuzz86lude]

hello,

been a member on PreludePower for a while and noticed more turbo A20 builds here..

i thought i would share my build and maybe get some ideas or help from any of those who are currently boosting or have boosted their 3g.

back in march i had a near accident that killed the engine(long story short, near head on resulting in going off the road into the ditch. resulting in a large piece of something smashing into the pan.

[fuzz86lude]

i went with the route of new forged rods, pistons, ported head(off the blown engine), isky custom grind cam, MSD streetfire ignition system, MSD Boost Timing Master box, and a garrett .60 a/r turbo..so far

[fuzz86lude]

one of the things i'm trying to figure out is the engine management.. i see a lot of OBD1 conversions, SAFCs, but not hardly any OBD2 conversions.

one of the guys i deal with at the shop has HP tuners for his GM builds he does....from what we figured out a Cobalt SS has ignition and boost timing all in the ECM and he can turn off all the unnecessary things to make it all work.. i'll have some pics up as soon as i get a few more posts in.

[89T]

You can pretty much all the same things with obd1 and say Neptune or hondata .You would also have boost control included.

[AccordEpicenter]

why would you want to go obd2?? Piggybacks suck, boost timing masters suck, you really need to convert to obd1 and run neptune or crome. I run a chipped civic P06 and it works great. Going obd1 youll be way ahead in the wallet and power departments vs any other managemant, its got the most bang for your buck by far, and its a powerful tool for tuning also, you have far greater control than a BTM and SAFC. The only thing better would be some kind of high end standalone but there are not many clear advantages to that scenario.

[stat1K]

gm and ford obd2 is about as equivalent to honda obd1 in the tuning department. i know several ek civics that run obd1 with obd2a/b-obd1 converters to run a p28 or p06.

[fuzz86lude]

@AccordEpicenter, i was amazed to see your car run on the dyno with the boost turned way up.. never really seen that much power from a 2.0 before


the obd2 was an idea i looked at because of the tuning software we have for GM LSX builds we get.. i'm still looking into the tuning part as soon as the engine is in place and is in the process of being broke in. plans are to finish the build, install the engine with the original auto trans, break in the engine then swap to a 5 speed. work on tuning for boost and seeing where i go from there.

the boost timing box i have was a deal when i got it.($100 for the Streetfire, Blaster high vibration coil, and boost timing box)

[Tdurr]

Go obd1. If your spending this much money on internals I'd hate to see you fry them thanks to a tuning loophole. This is coming from a guy who had a safc and btm on a big 16g. It was fun but I felt I wasn't able to get the reliable power I wanted.

Also welcome and pics pics pics! We love those here lol.

[fuzz86lude]

how much boost did you run?
also SS? used to have a few parts runs down there a while ago

[fuzz86lude]

and finally the pics are here!!

previous home of the new A20
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/Medusa%20build/IMG_20120319_161412.jpg

stripped down block

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/Medusa%20build/IMG_20120319_234346.jpg

flanges!

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/P250611_0003.jpg

modified "bundle of snakes" calais intake

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/P270611_1633_01.jpg

eagle H beam rods

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120413_154348.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120413_154644.jpg

JE pistons

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120524_170233-1.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120524_170109.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120524_165829.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120524_165842.jpg

[fuzz86lude]

crank after polish and balancing

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120607_191839.jpg

bearings

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120607_201800.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120607_201805.jpg

block after being in the machine shop

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120607_203007.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120607_203017.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120607_203301.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120607_221312.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120607_221336.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120608_215243.jpg

[fuzz86lude]

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120612_121624.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120612_121646.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120612_215746.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120612_224659.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120612_224709.jpg

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20120618_214318.jpg

[cygnus x-1]

one of the things i'm trying to figure out is the engine management.. i see a lot of OBD1 conversions, SAFCs, but not hardly any OBD2 conversions.

one of the guys i deal with at the shop has HP tuners for his GM builds he does....from what we figured out a Cobalt SS has ignition and boost timing all in the ECM and he can turn off all the unnecessary things to make it all work.. i'll have some pics up as soon as i get a few more posts in.


You don't see OBD2 on (modified) Hondas because Honda OBD2 ECUs are not really tunable. All the tools out there are for OBD1, which is why everyone uses them. OBD1 works well although to be honest the technology is pretty dated now.

Piggyback modules are cheap and easy but don't give you as much control. Aftermarket stand alones are good but usually quite expensive.

Ultimately you need to choose whatever EMS you or your tuner will be able to setup correctly. No ECU is worth a dime if you can't get it setup and tuned right.

C|

[fuzz86lude]

as far as obd 1 goes which is the one of the best tuning softwares to use..

i've heard more about crome and neptune between the two forums

[2oodoor]

sick build, I love it!
... somebodys into GM, if that is a real oem packaged ss camaro ( and it certainly looks like) it is quite a gem, those have some unique goodies most people arn't aware of. Then I see a TA of the same era as well:thumbup:

[cygnus x-1]

as far as obd 1 goes which is the one of the best tuning softwares to use..

i've heard more about crome and neptune between the two forums


From what I've heard I think Neptune is pretty good. Crome maybe not so much anymore.

C|

[fuzz86lude]

sick build, I love it!
... somebodys into GM, if that is a real oem packaged ss camaro ( and it certainly looks like) it is quite a gem, those have some unique goodies most people arn't aware of. Then I see a TA of the same era as well:thumbup:

we get oem SS camaros in all the time along with T/As, GTO, G8, Vettes...very rarely we get something special like a converted GTO.. had no Pontiac badges at all but all the body work was replaced with Holden parts..

we mainly do work on GM cars with the LS engines ..some builds are full rebuilds, others are simple head, cam, and headers..


finished cleaning up the manifold flange..ports are now matched to the head.

[gfrg88]

Pssst, move it to prelude side ;)


Good to see this build over here though :thumbup:

[fuzz86lude]

Good to see this build over here though :thumbup:

Figured it would be alright to share my build with other people in the a20 community, especially since there are a few builds involving turbo

Got an idea with the mani now.. might try to make something to match the intake mani or maybe a little short with the same concept..

[gfrg88]

something like that, with a short air to water intercooler would be insane! The boost response would be pretty badass!


Have you figured out what turbo you're going with, yet?

[gfrg88]

http://www.siliconeintakes.com//images/product/intercooler_type13_picture.jpg

Something like this, from turbo right to throttle body :)

[fuzz86lude]

I already have the turbo at the shop on my toolbox.. ill see what model garrett it is

[MessyHonda]

sweet build. what trans and clutch are you going with?

[fuzz86lude]

@ Messy, i plan on getting my auto swapped for a manual. not sure on clutch, would like to see what kind of deal we can get on a Spec stage 2 kit..

@ Gio, i have a Garrett M24 .60 A/R and a turbo off a Nissan 280zx(TB03 i think)

[MessyHonda]

here is some info on some good clutches for the a20

Clutchnet makes a stage 1-3 clutch for our car. I had a stage 3 6 puck it in my car but I took it out because it was too stiff for daily driving. It had the best grip out of all the clutches i owned.(I might have the pressure plate still if you want it but il have to look for it in my pile of parts) clutchnet quoted me around 100 dollars to install new springs on the diaphragm

For the transmission you might want to get a long geared trans from a carbed 3gee because it was the longest gears(helps you build up boost).

[fuzz86lude]

i see.. so the 3gee accords with the carbs have taller gears, what other gearboxes fit if i can't find one?

i'm seeing about the Spec kit because it comes with the flywheel and we might be able to get it at wholesale cost.. we've had good luck with them on about everything we've installed them on, except Cadillac CTS-V..

centerforce is another option along with ACT

[MessyHonda]

well the 86-89 accord gearboxes have the same gears but the only difference is the carb has a 3.8 final and the fuel injected ones have a 4.0.
In the prelude SI boxes 1-3 gears are the same but 4-5th gears are a bit shorter with the 4.0 final

I had a ACT in my coupe and it worked good. the car made around 160whp.

[fuzz86lude]

speaking of clutches, my dad knows some people at McLeod. should see if they can do somehting or have something already

[AccordEpicenter]

i thought prelude tranny had LXi/SEi final drive and shorter 3rd 4th and 5th gears? I need a prelude box because with the LX/DX trans on 24.5" tires at 7250 or 7500rpm im at 150+mph in 4TH GEAR! Anywho, the build looks like its coming along great! Id rethink the intake manifold though, its got very little plenum area and the runners are holy shit long. Other than that everything else looks great. Id reccomend a clutchnet dual diaphram 6 puck sprung or unsprung.

[cygnus x-1]

Id rethink the intake manifold though, its got very little plenum area and the runners are holy shit long.


Holy shit long = torque monster. And that's fine since the A engines aren't really made for high RPMs anyway.

C|

[fuzz86lude]

With the intake im thinking it would be awesome for when boost is introduced.. equal length runners right off the tb.. not to mention huge weight difference.. like less than half the weight of an original a20a3 intake

[AccordEpicenter]

i just think it needs plenum area. The long runners arent a big deal, but im thinking adding some plenum behind the throttle body would really really help power across the board. FWIW Im using an AEBS Typhoon intake manifold for a B18C5/B16A specifically because its got a decent plenum volume and the runners are wayyyy longer than say a victor X. It made 362ft lb at like 5K but I have to check the dyno sheet. Either way, most B16/B18 Builds have a hard time making well over 300ft lb until they are WAYYYYY over 500whp

[fuzz86lude]

i had thoughts of the b series intakes before, my dad came up with idea for the calais intake from seeing a few on the miatas running turbo kits.

the old engine did ok for being run through a slush box and about everything stock except for the cam and ignition box..

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/Color.jpg

i just cant wait to get the new engine in and everything ready to go for the boost and give it another shot

[obdriver6]

Oh wow, how did I miss this! The build looks great!

[fuzz86lude]

thanks, it's still coming along.. right now i'm focusing on getting the manifold made and new lines ran for oil and coolant. then dropping it in for break in.

been missing the car along with it's stereo and most of all, the gas mileage(compared to a worn out four wheel drive bronco that gets almost 12-16mpg on a good day)..

[obdriver6]

What do you have in mind for the manifold?

[fuzz86lude]

thought of using a log, but after reading the pros and cons of each type, i'm going with a tube type..that and it will have a similar look to the intake manifold, but with a turbo bolted on

[gfrg88]

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59761&page=23

Something like that?

[fuzz86lude]

@ Gio

yes, very much like what i want to do for the manifold..

[obdriver6]

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59761&page=23

Something like that?

I was thinking the same thing! lol

[fuzz86lude]

the way we want to do mine is close, but a little shorter..

[gfrg88]

What are your power goals?

[fuzz86lude]

Anywhere between 225-300hp with atleast 200-250ft-lbs would be nice...

[MessyHonda]

yeah im sure with a good tune you will reach your power goal

[AccordEpicenter]

id say 12-14psi boost should do the trick. I was making 285whp on 14psi which id say is best case scenario. I would think you would be at at least 230whp on 14psi boost tho with the tq to match. This is doable on pump gas as long as your pistons are stock compression or less...

[fuzz86lude]

The pistons i have in are 9:0:1 b18c pistons

[lostforawhile]

I put up the link to this thread in the three geez facebook page,now maby some of the morons there who think you can only swap engines on this car,will see a real build and what can be done with the A20

[gfrg88]

The pistons i have in are 9:0:1 b18c pistons

you're gonna need a lot of boost. and are gonna have major turbo lag!

[fuzz86lude]

the turbo lag could be fixed in a way that would make for some extreme boost levels...but i'm not going that far...

i know i'm going to have lag for sure, but when it gets spooling it'll be worth it..

[lostforawhile]

the turbo lag could be fixed in a way that would make for some extreme boost levels...but i'm not going that far...

i know i'm going to have lag for sure, but when it gets spooling it'll be worth it..

that would be fine for racing, but having that much lag is going to be a total pain in the ass on the street

[gfrg88]

that would be fine for racing, but having that much lag is going to be a total pain in the ass on the street

It's not bad. I actually prefer lag on the streets. I don't want to be in boost all the time. My turbo doesn't spool til like 5.5k rpms lol

[fuzz86lude]

doing a little bit of research on the turbo part number i came across what i actually have...the plate on the turbo shows up as a GT2560LS on the Garrett site, supposedly it's also the same turbo on a Focus RS.. which is also a 2.0l engine with a close enough displacement as our engines..

[AccordEpicenter]

thats rather small but it will spool instantly

[fuzz86lude]

For a while it may be perfect... especially with the cam grind i have from Isky Racing Cams and a good tube type manifold. After all it may be about a month or two before i have a good 5 speed trans and clutch ready

[fuzz86lude]

It has been a while since the last update...

About 2 weeks ago i got the car in the shop and the engine block dropped in. After many hours of rerouting the necessary vacuum lines and fixing the broken connectors on the wiring harness, im going to break it all in without the turbo.. while the mani for the turbo is being.finished.. all in all ot runs great and really picks up with the intake mani

[MessyHonda]

great progress. post pics

[obdriver6]

great progress. post pics

^ This!

[fuzz86lude]

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20121013_144127.jpg
Engine is in..
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20121013_161925.jpg
Turbo was bolted up to the unfinished mani for measurements http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20121013_161938.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20121026_191145.jpg
Final button up before breaking in..
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20121029_200059.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/IMG_20121026_191113.jpg

[obdriver6]

First time I've seen a valve cover painted like that. I will say that that intake manifold is sick!

[fuzz86lude]

Thanks! So far i am the only one with this intake setup.. throttle seems really hard to press, but it picks up rather well

[fuzz86lude]

finally got the video up...

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/th_VID_20121112_174803.jpg (http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa479/fuzz86lude/?action=view&current=VID_20121112_174803.mp4)

[MessyHonda]

cool looking manifold

[fuzz86lude]

so far things are going well with the break in.. haven't had many problems except for the old automatic sticking when cold...

i will add that the intake manifold made a difference.. pulls hard to 6500(trying hard to not let it go too high) in all gears...one day i'll see if my wife can get a video on the road.