Using Castor Oil in a Differential

[Dr_Snooz]

The truck needs some rear brake work and I'll probably change the diff fluid at the same time. Can anyone think of a good reason why castor oil wouldn't work?

And yes, this is a golden opportunity to ridicule, mock and flame me! :rofl:

[lostforawhile]

I don't think it will hold up, also is the rear end a posi or just a regular differential, if it's a posi they need a fluid with special friction additives to work properly, as little fluid as what goes in there this is one where you had better stick to good name brand stuff, those truck rear ends go through a lot and carry a lot of load,not a good place to try an experiment

[DBMaster]

Put some synthetic gear oil in there and forget about it forever - or, until you have to tear it apart again.

[lostforawhile]

the main difference snooze is make sure it's not a limited slip, common on work trucks to get out of the mud if needed, the limited slip needs a completely different kind of stuff

[Dr_Snooz]

It's just a plain, old, open diff. Nothing fancy. I'm looking for biodegradable lubes, seeing that I'm living in the middle of nowhere now. It's easier for me to dispose of biodegradable stuff. Also, it's my way of sticking it to the man, if you will. I'm using G-Oil in the engine of the tractor right now and will eventually try straight canola in something. I'll try castor oil in the diff. Still working on an ATF.

Believe it or not, Cadillac specified castor oil (http://forums.aaca.org/f120/1914-cadillac-rear-differential-axle-fluid-330108.html) in their differentials back in 1914. It should be plenty tough. My only real concern is if it turns into a hard lacquer like linseed oil. I wouldn't want to rebuild a diff because it ends up full of sticky goo. I know that castor oil does this, to some extent. At heat, it turns into a wax that coats and lubes moving parts. That sounds perfect for use in a diff, where a clingy lube is needed.

It occurs to me that I have never so much as seen castor oil, much less used it on anything. I should probably get some and do some beta tests/proofs of concept before just dumping it randomly in things.

Any other thoughts?

[ecogabriel]

Do you have an extra truck to work if the one you want to experiment gets busted?
If the answer is yes, then go ahead.
Otherwise, I would stick with what works and focus on using less of it by getting an oil analysis to get a better idea when changes are necessary.
my 0.002

EDIT: WWI aircraft used castor oil to lubricate their engines

[lostforawhile]

It's just a plain, old, open diff. Nothing fancy. I'm looking for biodegradable lubes, seeing that I'm living in the middle of nowhere now. It's easier for me to dispose of biodegradable stuff. Also, it's my way of sticking it to the man, if you will. I'm using G-Oil in the engine of the tractor right now and will eventually try straight canola in something. I'll try castor oil in the diff. Still working on an ATF.

Believe it or not, Cadillac specified castor oil (http://forums.aaca.org/f120/1914-cadillac-rear-differential-axle-fluid-330108.html) in their differentials back in 1914. It should be plenty tough. My only real concern is if it turns into a hard lacquer like linseed oil. I wouldn't want to rebuild a diff because it ends up full of sticky goo. I know that castor oil does this, to some extent. At heat, it turns into a wax that coats and lubes moving parts. That sounds perfect for use in a diff, where a clingy lube is needed.

It occurs to me that I have never so much as seen castor oil, much less used it on anything. I should probably get some and do some beta tests/proofs of concept before just dumping it randomly in things.

Any other thoughts?
you have to understand that a 1914 differential is completely different then a modern one, you aren't talking about the same horsepower load etc, you shouldn't have a disposal issue, once you change it it will be in there for years. The other reason they used to use castor oil, was back then they didn't have much better, they also used to use candles and kerosene lamps before the flashlight was invented

[lostforawhile]

Do you have an extra truck to work if the one you want to experiment gets busted?
If the answer is yes, then go ahead.
Otherwise, I would stick with what works and focus on using less of it by getting an oil analysis to get a better idea when changes are necessary.
my 0.002

EDIT: WWI aircraft used castor oil to lubricate their enginesyes the WW1 aircraft that used castor oil also had the engines where the pistons and crankshaft were stationary and the engine rotated around the crankshaft, they also blew so much castor oil back into the pilots face that they frequently had to land due to bouts of diarrhea, that style of engine didn't last long

[AccordEpicenter]

I believe the shear forces of the gears churning the oil around will reduce the viscosity of the oil to nothing in short order. Just use regular gear lube. I believe itll work but the lifespan of the oil will be extremely short. I wouldnt even bother.

[ecogabriel]

yes the WW1 aircraft that used castor oil also had the engines where the pistons and crankshaft were stationary and the engine rotated around the crankshaft, they also blew so much castor oil back into the pilots face that they frequently had to land due to bouts of diarrhea, that style of engine didn't last long

I have read about the pilot's problems when ingesting the oil spewed by the engine :bowrofl:. Mineral oil was not any better than castor oil those days.

[Rendon LX-i]

Nope rear diff fluid is a Heavy fluid for a reason. Needs that friction modifyer to hold up. Motor oil has to much cleaning additives an will wipe out the heel of the ring gear.

Get 75-80 for your rear end. if you run sytec type it wont hurt it just extra protection

[2drSE-i]

You should use urine to lubricate it. I use urine to lubricate things around the house, thats how I know it works.

Seriously guys, lets use factual information to back up our claims. Snooz, have a spare lawnmower to try this out on?

[lostforawhile]

You should use urine to lubricate it. I use urine to lubricate things around the house, thats how I know it works.

Seriously guys, lets use factual information to back up our claims. Snooz, have a spare lawnmower to try this out on?

I am the crank was really fixed in the airplane and everything else rotated around it, the castor oil used caused huge issues for the pilots because it spewed out of the engine at such a rate they were covered in it. There are verified accounts of German WW1 airmen captured behind enemy lines because they were forced to land due to the holy shits

[Dr_Snooz]

Here's some background reading for anyone interested. The research being done now is for motor oil. I'm having a harder time getting info on diff oils. Hence my question. From everything I'm reading, the vegetable oils are vastly superior to anything petroleum. Early petroleum lubes were pretty dismal, which is probably why Cadillac specified that vegetable oil be used in their diffs. Castor is still used in hydraulic applications today.

Research being done on vegetable motor oil at Purdue. (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-029.html) - "In terms of functionality, [vegetable-based motor oils] have exceeded expectations by surpassing both conventional and synthetic oils in the tests conducted." Tests included lubrication, thermal breakdown, ash production, acid formation, fuel economy and emissions.

Patent for a vegetable based motor oil (1999). (http://www.google.com/patents/US5888947)

Guy who dumped used vegetable oil in his crankcase to see what would happen. (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/rightlivelihood/fuel/vegemotoroilsdialog.htm) - It ran fine.

Chicago Tribune article on vegetable-based motor oils. (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-06-11/business/0106110001_1_motor-oil-lubrication-vegetable-oils) - "The benefits of the bio-oil over petroleum oils include more than 20 percent reduction in engine wear, 50 percent better lubricity, 60 percent reduction in oil consumption, 3 percent improvement in gas mileage and significant reductions in tailpipe emissions."

Company selling vegetable-based motor oil right now at many Wal-Marts. (http://www.getg.com/engineOil.php) (I've learned that they actually use beef tallow)

Consortium developing vegetable-based motor oils. (http://www.kiowacountycolo.com/sf-oil.htm)

Anyway, I'm wondering if someone knows someone who might have tried a vegetable oil in something like a diff.

Edit: It looks like Jojoba oil can be used as an extreme pressure additive in any oil. Adding it to the castor oil might be wise. It might make a good substitute ATF too.

[lostforawhile]

I understand you are trying not to use petroleum products, but there are some things not worth taking a chance on, you know you can recycle your oil and rear end grease right? Some of the oil makers are even making parts of their new oils out of the recycled oils, The stuff in the rear end of that truck is pretty heavy duty stuff, even if you ran regular oil in it it would be destroyed, you need to use whats specified, everything in there is under extreme load, many of the special oils for rear end contain extreme pressure additives such as moly, no organic oil can handle the pressure that moly based oils can, yes vegetable products used to be used, but that was before the lubricants got so advanced, I have a hundred year old vertical boring machine at work, it specified lard as a lubricant, would I use lard with the superior greases available today? There's no way, I wouldn't even be able to get parts to repair the damage

[Rendon LX-i]

look point of fact. oils are used for certain reasons. IF motor oil is NOT used for cetrain apps then why use it. an then proceed to use it? i never heard of such thing. there is gear oil for a reason point beening. Dont be taking short cuts. a certian oil is used for certain reason PERIOD SO USE IT . im drunk so dont mind me but GOD DAMN. serious. its like me asking if i would use 0-20w in a 5-30 engine when clearnace issue are not even close. IDK i cant explain it. im just use to doing the the work. (basicly putting something where it dont fit. Oil has it specs and use it as it supposed. MOTOR oil is use to lube and clean.

[Dr_Snooz]

Okay, got it. Lost and Ren are adamantly opposed to any testing with vegetable oil. Thank you gentlemen for your input.

Anyone else have anything to add? Research studies, personal experiences and even hearsay are especially appreciated.

[Oldblueaccord]

I think the rearend in my Scout has seen 175 degrees read off the back cover so you may want to consider it in your equation. I wonder if pigs fat would work.


wp

[Dr_Snooz]

Lard would be awesome if there was a way to keep it liquid at lower temps.

[cygnus x-1]

As far as lubricating properties, thick veg based oil would probably work fine in a diff. What would worry me more is potential biological degradation over time (bacterial/algal growth), and polymerization. These are not as big a problem with engine lubricating oil and fuel oil because they are changed on a periodic basis. Diff oil on the other hand might not be changed for many years. Unless you feel like turning it into a science project (certainly nothing wrong with that) you might as well just use the standard diff oil and make sure you recycle it whenever you change it again (in a few years).

C|

[Dr_Snooz]

Good point about natural decay. It could easily go rancid under the right conditions.


Diff oil on the other hand might not be changed for many years.

I notice a couple people posted that diff oil never gets changed, but my maintenance schedule says that it should be changed regularly (60k miles is the interval that comes to mind). What does everyone else know that I don't?

[lostforawhile]

Good point about natural decay. It could easily go rancid under the right conditions.



I notice a couple people posted that diff oil never gets changed, but my maintenance schedule says that it should be changed regularly (60k miles is the interval that comes to mind). What does everyone else know that I don't?

everyone forgets to change it, the oil in the 3 geez gearbox is supposed to get changed too lol same thing,everyone forgets

[DBMaster]

In my 72 Pontiac it was still original at 212,000 miles. In those days, if it didn't leak you didn't touch it. I am not advocating that position. I am just stating that sometimes we tend to get a bit carried away with OVER maintaining. That most likely ties in with the compulsive nature of anyone who can keep a car as long as most of here have.

[Oldblueaccord]

Lard would be awesome if there was a way to keep it liquid at lower temps.

I need to add "limited slip additive" to my Dana 60 and remembered that this was called "fish oil" or "whale oil" I wonder what it is.


http://www.4wheelparts.com/Performance-Parts/Limited-Slip-Additive.aspx?t_c=74&t_s=345&t_pt=101365&t_pl=106807&t_pn=cro4318060ab&gp=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=product&emlprox=out&gclid=CM7gmarLprICFQOf7Qod5zoAjg


wp

[1ajs]

vegitble oil i could see cars not moving or turning over in january here cause it was used in the motor....

allready having such problems with biodiesil here and ethinal

[AccordEpicenter]

vegitble oil i could see cars not moving or turning over in january here cause it was used in the motor....

allready having such problems with biodiesil here and ethinal

looks like you're also having problems with spell check

[Dr_Snooz]

I just got a couple gallons of Castor oil in the mail. They were $20 each, which is pretty cheap. When I find some time, I'll put it in and see what happens. The hydrostatic transmission in my lawn tractor is on its last legs. I might put it in there too, just to see what happens. Worst case, I'll have to rebuild it. Which is what I have to do anyway. It will at least give me some idea how it might perform as an ATF.

Good times!

[ecogabriel]

Put some synthetic gear oil in there and forget about it forever - or, until you have to tear it apart again.


vegitble oil i could see cars not moving or turning over in january here cause it was used in the motor....

allready having such problems with biodiesil here and ethinal


I just got a couple gallons of Castor oil in the mail. They were $20 each, which is pretty cheap. When I find some time, I'll put it in and see what happens. The hydrostatic transmission in my lawn tractor is on its last legs. I might put it in there too, just to see what happens. Worst case, I'll have to rebuild it. Which is what I have to do anyway. It will at least give me some idea how it might perform as an ATF.

Good times!

I would have poured synthetic in the rear diff there and forget about it. Besides, if you are in the middle of nowhere you have plenty of room to store used dyno oil to be taken to the recycle shop later on. I hate having to go to autozone or a gas station every time I change the oil either in my vehicles or my neighbors' (5 cars total).

Anyway, despite all the :rant:, it seems we are about to witness an experiment on lubrication....:hmph:

[Dr_Snooz]

LOL. Experimentation indeed!

BTW, I'm using G-Oil in the truck right now. It works fine. I thought it was made from vegetable oil, but it turns out to be made of tallow. At least it's not petroleum.

[Oldblueaccord]

This will probably be my last season riding my 1977 Chrysler Lebaron. If you want we can try some oils. I want to try the pigs fat!


wp

[lostforawhile]

the issue is you can use cator oil as an engine type oil, they used to use it in early airplanes, but it can't handle the load of the gears in the differential, it will just shear and break down. the castor oil was the issue on WW1 planes, the engines would blow so much oil out that the pilots would get violently sick and have to land behind enemy lines to relieve themselves,if you know what I mean.
passieren die WC-Papier!!

[Dr_Snooz]

This will probably be my last season riding my 1977 Chrysler Lebaron. If you want we can try some oils. I want to try the pigs fat!


wp

Canola is at the top of my list. Some people I have read about have tried it, but no one has done anything long term. Peanut would probably work pretty well too. If you did pig's fat, you'd have to blend it with something, as it will be rock solid at room temperature.

I'm less excited about using castor as an engine oil right now. At heat, it supposedly develops a waxy film that coats internal parts. That could be good if it coats wear surfaces. It could be bad if it clogs oil channels. The scary thing about testing engine oils is that you have no idea how they are doing until you hear clattering. Then it's too late.

[Oldblueaccord]

Hyler (the car) must have read this because it blew a heater hose and stranded me for a while yesterday in the pouring rain.


I was thinking pigs fat in the rear axle. The motor I was kinda thinking of keeping. Its a 318/ factory 4 barrel car.

I guess you could try a lawnmower motor first.



wp

[Dr_Snooz]

Ah. Never mind.

[Oldblueaccord]

Can you pick up a dirt cheap car that wont pass emission and try it on that some how. I don't know how CA works just a thought.


wp

[Dr_Snooz]

Probably more hassle than it's worth. I have an old lawnmower I can use for oil testing.

[lostforawhile]

Probably more hassle than it's worth. I have an old lawnmower I can use for oil testing.

i thought lawnmowers required emissions testing there now? at least I heard thats what they were proposing

[Dr_Snooz]

Not at the consumer level...yet. The lawnmowers have to meet special emissions requirements now, but that's at the manufacturer level. My brother was telling me that we have to register (not smog) ATV's with the DMV now. Crazy.

[Dr_Snooz]

I changed diff oil today. The castor oil is about the same weight and consistency as the old 80-90 gear oil that was in the diff, so it appears to be a good substitute from that standpoint. The old diff oil was thick and sticky and about the consistency of honey. So is the castor oil, as it turns out, so again, a good substitute.

I ran over the hill to the parts store afterward and didn't notice any unusual noises coming from the back end. I have had a rear end whine for a while now and the castor oil seems to have made it a little quieter, so again, a good substitute. My guess is that the castor oil will be a lot gentler on the oil seals. I also think its performance under high heat will be significantly better than dino oil. From what I've read, the castor turns waxy at high heat, whereas the dino oils burn and turn to acidic ash. You don't want that on your bearing surfaces. The best part is that if I drip this stuff on the ground, it's completely biodegradable. Castor oil is way too heavy for engine oil, but it seems to be a good diff oil so far.

I'll post back with updates over time to see how it performs over the long term. Wish me luck.

[Dr_Snooz]

BTW, this is a 1-ton work truck with a heavy duty axle. I use it for hauling, towing a tool trailer, stump pulling and carrying my camper around from time to time. This is definitely a heavy duty application. If it works here, it will work in any application.

[Vanilla Sky]

I do think I'd avoid using it with an LSD.

[Dr_Snooz]

Good point. This is an open diff thankfully.

[Oldblueaccord]

Keep checking your diff temps make sure its not over heating is all.


wp

[Vanilla Sky]

I agree. A temp sensor is pretty important when you're testing new lubricants.

[lostforawhile]

the problem you are going to run into is this, it may look the same, and appear to be the same, but plain castor oil has no pressure additives whatsoever, the rear end in any truck is under tremendous pressure under acceleration, yours being a heavy duty truck is under much worse conditions then a standard truck, what those pressure additives do, is act as a cushion between the teeth on the ring and the pinion gears, what you are using has no ability to resist oil shearing under pressure, and what you are going to get is direct metal to metal contact between the ring and pinion gears, it may not fail tomorrow, but the heat and wear caused between those surfaces is eventually going to cause something to fail, This was tried in the early days of cars and trucks, in very early low horsepower light cars it worked, but as the weights and horsepower went up, petroleum based gear oils had to be developed

[Dr_Snooz]

I took the diff temp after climbing the hill to my house today. It is a slow drive (30-40 MPH) because the road is narrow and winding with a horrifying drop off on one side. The total elevation gain is ~600 ft. Ambient temp was 57 deg. and the truck was empty. I took the temp with my trusty Harbor Freight infrared thermometer down low on the diff cover and got 111.4 F. I don't have any data from the old oil for comparison, but that seems about right to me.

[ecogabriel]

the problem you are going to run into is this, it may look the same, and appear to be the same, but plain castor oil has no pressure additives whatsoever, the rear end in any truck is under tremendous pressure under acceleration, yours being a heavy duty truck is under much worse conditions then a standard truck, what those pressure additives do, is act as a cushion between the teeth on the ring and the pinion gears, what you are using has no ability to resist oil shearing under pressure, and what you are going to get is direct metal to metal contact between the ring and pinion gears, it may not fail tomorrow, but the heat and wear caused between those surfaces is eventually going to cause something to fail, This was tried in the early days of cars and trucks, in very early low horsepower light cars it worked, but as the weights and horsepower went up, petroleum based gear oils had to be developed

x2. Grade SA engine oil is dino oil without additives. All others use different additive packages according to intended use. As long as I know, the castor oil you are using has no additives although your truck calls for a specific type because of the additives (e.g. GL-4)
Part of the discussion with our cars' choice of oil was - as I remember - that newer standards had lower content of certain additives than the ones in use when our cars were designed and the potential effect on longevity and wear.

Below is a discussion of GL-5 gear oil and some other stuff,

http://www.lubrizol.com/DrivelineAdditives/AutomotiveGearOil/GL5.html

And a long post on how oils are made; I have not read it all but I recognized bits of things I had been told about long, long ago.

http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

[ecogabriel]

LOL. Experimentation indeed!

BTW, I'm using G-Oil in the truck right now. It works fine. I thought it was made from vegetable oil, but it turns out to be made of tallow. At least it's not petroleum.

Take a look at the G-Oil website for information on the API standards the oil meets, and then take a look at the MSDS sheet for information on what it is in the oil itself. I dunno if that is the one you use in your engine, but you would notice that besides the base oil you would find some other components - the proprietary part looks like it would be the additives package the oil carries around the engine.

http://www.getg.com/engineOil/2x_refined.php

http://www.getg.com/productAssets/msds/MSDS%20GOil%202X%20Refined%2015W-40%20Diesel%20Conventional%20Green%20Motor%20Oil%2 01.0.pdf

[lostforawhile]

I took the diff temp after climbing the hill to my house today. It is a slow drive (30-40 MPH) because the road is narrow and winding with a horrifying drop off on one side. The total elevation gain is ~600 ft. Ambient temp was 57 deg. and the truck was empty. I took the temp with my trusty Harbor Freight infrared thermometer down low on the diff cover and got 111.4 F. I don't have any data from the old oil for comparison, but that seems about right to me.the issue I'm worried about, is gear oils contain an extreme pressure additive, this cushions the teeth against metal to metal contact, this is very important, on the three geez using motor oil for gear oil, this was provided by the zinc in the oil, which is also gone from motor oil now

[carotman]

Even if it's vegetable oil, you still can't just dump it down the drain. The fact that it's vegetable only means it comes from a renewable source. It'll still pollute water streams if you dump it.

[Oldblueaccord]

That temp if anything is low thats good!

My dana 44 in my Scout 2 runs around 130.

Wp

[ecogabriel]

the issue I'm worried about, is gear oils contain an extreme pressure additive, this cushions the teeth against metal to metal contact, this is very important, on the three geez using motor oil for gear oil, this was provided by the zinc in the oil, which is also gone from motor oil now

I believe the level of high pressure additives is higher in GL-4 and GL-5 oils commonly used in diff.
As for the gearbox, sadly my 3G is auto. I am using synchromesh in the manual trans in the Civic and found no problems with it.

[lostforawhile]

I believe the level of high pressure additives is higher in GL-4 and GL-5 oils commonly used in diff.
As for the gearbox, sadly my 3G is auto. I am using synchromesh in the manual trans in the Civic and found no problems with it.

the syncromesh is fine, the original owners manual called for motor oil but back then the oil had zinc in it. A truck rear end is going to require a much different additive package then the manual transmission on a three g

[Dr_Snooz]

Even if it's vegetable oil, you still can't just dump it down the drain. The fact that it's vegetable only means it comes from a renewable source. It'll still pollute water streams if you dump it.

That's right. There are still going to be a lot of metals and other goodies in the waste oil. What appeals to me is that I'm avoiding the price fixing, collusion, environmental destruction, bribery, despotic manipulation of oil-rich nations, etc. that come with buying from oil companies.

[Dr_Snooz]

I've been driving around for a few months now and I haven't seen any diff temps much above 100*F. It's winter, of course, so I'm not sure that says much right now. We'll see what happens in late August when it's 114* and I have the camper on it going into the mountains.

I should point out that Lost might be on to something in mentioning the EP additives. I'm noticing that diff engagement from stops seems to be harsher now than it used to be. There's a noticable jolt now as the driveline mates up to the wheels. Maybe it's just my imagination. Anyone have any ideas for homemade EP additives?

[cygnus x-1]

I should point out that Lost might be on to something in mentioning the EP additives. I'm noticing that diff engagement from stops seems to be harsher now than it used to be. There's a noticable jolt now as the driveline mates up to the wheels. Maybe it's just my imagination. Anyone have any ideas for homemade EP additives?


I'm not seeing how different oil would cause what you are describing, unless the gears have worn severely and have huge lash now. Check your u-joints for any play. Also check the rest of the suspension for any loose/broken parts.

C|

[Dr_Snooz]

Couple more data points here. I did some extended highway driving in 80* ambient temps. The diff temp got up to 120*. I also towed the trailer up the hill (600' elevation gain) and again the temp was 120*. Ambient temp was 65*.

[Dr_Snooz]

Today I drove the truck unladen at highway speed (55 MPH) for an hour or so. The drive finished up with a ~1000' climb up a steep mountain road. Ambient temp started at 88 deg. and declined to 82 deg. by the end of the drive. Diff temp was 141 deg. at the top of the grade. The diff seems to be holding up fine with no strange noises or any other issues.

We'll be entering the hellish hot season here soon with ambient temps sitting in the high 90s and low 100s for a good 2-3 months. We'll see how it does then. If all goes well, I'll get the trailer behind it and do some climbing in the hot weather so we can see how it does under extreme conditions. I might even disassemble the house I've constructed around the camper (don't ask) and take it for a drive.

Refined castor oil doesn't smoke until nearly 400 deg. I'm pretty sure mine isn't refined, so my smoke point will be below that. Even so, I suspect my diff will fail from high temps before the oil does. From what I've read, diffs can survive temps of up to 250-275 deg. but you don't want to make a habit of driving them like that. A comfortable upper end temp of 200 deg. is acceptable.

That's mostly going from memory, so if anyone knows different, let me know.

[Dr_Snooz]

Today I hauled the trailer up a very steep hill for ~1500'. How steep? So steep that I could only go about 20 MPH. So steep that coming down my brakes got hot and I had to stop 2/3 of the way down and wait for them to cool off. They smoked for a good 5 minutes. Diff temp at the top of the hill was 105 deg. with a 63 deg. ambient temp.

Note to self: fixing the trailer brakes is now a top priority!

[Kiwi303]

Degree C or degree F?

[Vanilla Sky]

Ambient was 63 and he's in the states, so F.

[lostforawhile]

the additive package helps cushion the gears against metal to metal contact,

[Dr_Snooz]

the additive package helps cushion the gears against metal to metal contact,

I'm open to suggestions for homemade additive packages. I think the oil is great, but get the sense that there is more metal contact than before.

[Vanilla Sky]

I'm not sure what it would do in a rear end, but ZDDP is the ticket for flat tappet cams now that there's practically none of it in engine oil.

[cygnus x-1]

I probably wouldn't add anything until you know for certain there is an abnormal amount of wear. Does the drain plug have a magnet? If not you could put one on there and check it at regular intervals for metal particles.

C|

[Dr_Snooz]

We had a lovely, long spring here with temps staying consistently in the 70s and 80s for a few months. That really never happens here, and I'm not complaining. Summer has finally arrived however and I'm looking at two weeks solidly in the high 100s, broken only by a couple days of high 90s.

Today I pulled the trailer ~20 miles through rolling hills with an ambient temp of 106F. That's not a typo. Some of the climbs were second gear climbs. The trailer is a 10' cargo trailer, single axle, loaded fairly heavily. At the end, the diff temp was

...wait for it...




145F



Not too shabby.

[Oldblueaccord]

update?

[vteckiller]

Not to thread jack but as I read this thread in under the Impression just a brand name oil or a brand name full synthetic oil won't work alone in the manual transmission? I need to add an additive? Cause atm I've got regular Quaker state and it doesn't howl. It sounds fine. To me. But I could just be use to how it is. Shifts smoothly into every gear. I just drove from humbolt county CA, to northern Oregon 5 hrs no stops. 70-75 average. No issues.

[Dr_Snooz]

Seems to be holding up just fine after 11k miles. I pulled the drums last month to have them turned. The oil had turned waxy around the wheel bearings, as expected. Initially, it looked like filings and I nearly shat myself. Then I realized that it was doing exactly as predicted and so I had a good laugh at myself. I'm pulling a heavy trailer up hills and down and I don't have noise, shudder or any other issues. The brakes are giving me a lot more trouble than the diff.

I'm in the middle of toughening up the truck right now. I installed an ATF cooler, severe duty brake pads, replaced some bushings and ball joints. When funds permit, I'm going to have a long chat with the trailer. The brakes need a major overhaul and I'll probably replace the axle and leaf springs at the same time. It also needs a new jack and hitch coupler. When it's all done, I'll be stacking the camper on the truck bed and pulling the trailer behind. If the diff doesn't blow under those conditions then it won't ever blow.

:rockon:

[Dr_Snooz]

For my next trick, I'm going to run a blend of canola and corn oil in the crankcase of something. The petro companies are busy pulling the teeth out of G-Oil, and I can't find it anywhere now. Learning to run my vehicles on vegetable oils and fuels is my one finger salute to the dino oil oligopoly.

[Vanilla Sky]

Start with a lawn mower engine. Something like that wouldn't be too big of a deal if you blew it up spectacularly. Bonus points for it being air (oil) cooled, which should break down oil faster than a water cooled engine, of course assuming it runs hotter.

[Vanilla Sky]

For what it's worth, Canola has been extensively tested as a more environmentally safe chainsaw bar oil than the traditional black gold, and it seems to reduce wear.

[cygnus x-1]

The petro companies are busy pulling the teeth out of G-Oil, and I can't find it anywhere now. Learning to run my vehicles on vegetable oils and fuels is my one finger salute to the dino oil oligopoly.

What do you mean? There seems to be lots of it on Amazon and from suppliers on eBay.

C|

[Vanilla Sky]

Every parts store, even Walmart, used to carry it on their shelves. No one has it in my area now. My guess is that it's just a poor seller.

[cygnus x-1]

I don't recall ever seeing it in any of the parts stores, but I just checked Walmart and they say it's in stock in just about every store close to me.

C|

[Dr_Snooz]

Start with a lawn mower engine. Something like that wouldn't be too big of a deal if you blew it up spectacularly. Bonus points for it being air (oil) cooled, which should break down oil faster than a water cooled engine, of course assuming it runs hotter.

That's a good idea and I was thinking about it initially, but I really want something with an oil pressure gauge. That way, I can monitor what's going on without waiting for catastrophic failure. The 3g is the only engine I have with a gauge, but I'm torn. I've read on some discussion boards where people have run canola in car engines for short periods without any trouble. Overall, I think it will work just fine. God knows it's a lot cheaper than Mobil 1. At high temps, it will be superior to dino oil. My only real concern is cold temps. If the oil congeals in the block, that will be a problem. I've done some testing in the refrigerator, and the canola does freeze up, but only after a few days. It might work fine here in Cali, but maybe not so much in Minnesota.


What do you mean? There seems to be lots of it on Amazon and from suppliers on eBay.

C|

I don't do a lot of web-shopping anymore. I kept waiting for G-Oil to appear on the shelves here and it only ever made it to one Wal-Mart about an hour away. Wal-Mart says they have it, but it's not there anymore.

[Vanilla Sky]

Why not run a sandwich adapter plate between the block and oil filter?

[Dr_Snooz]

Okay, it's been nearly 15k miles now. I dragged the trailer halfway across the state (longways) last night. It was 5 hours down the I5 and up over the Grapevine. The Grapvine is where the I5 goes over the mountain range between the San Joaquin Valley and the LA basin. It is notable for the uninterrupted 7 mile long 6% grade going up it. There are lots of signs at the bottom warning you to turn off your A/C and watch out for overheating. It has escape ramps where big rigs can bail out if their brakes should get hot and fail on the descent. There are always a few cars broken down at the roadside every time I go over it. It's a punishing climb for any car. The 3g can only manage to do it in 4th at about 55 MPH. If I have to slow for another car, it's a long time getting back up to speed. The truck went up it at speeds between 45 and 52. All that to say that this is about the worst I can throw at this diff with the castor oil fill. After getting to the top of the grade last night and finding a safe place to pull off the road, I recorded a diff temp of 153F.

Compare that to Amsoil's differential operating at a frightening 300F under the same conditions: Proper Differential Maintenance Break-in and Routine (http://www.upmpg.com/lubricationnews/differential_maintenance/)

Really, the only thing I could do worse to this diff is to put the camper on the truck, with the trailer, and try the climb again. In truth, however, I would expect the engine to overheat and the trans to fail before getting any complaint from the diff.

This is plain, ordinary castor oil. It comes in a plastic jug and is intended for making soap. I'm considering changing the fluid now just to see how everything looks. I don't know what the service interval should be so it's well to err on the safe side until I learn more.

In other news, the canola oil brake fluid in the 3g is working great. It's time for an oil change and I'll be throwing canola in the crankcase just to see what happens.

Wish me well.

[cygnus x-1]

Good stuff. I would pull it apart to see if there is any waxy buildup in the diff case. That's about the only problem I think you might have in this application.

C|

[Dr_Snooz]

Oh, there is wax all over the place. I've already pulled the driveshafts and found wax all over the wheel bearings. That's what won me over for this application. When the oil gets hot, it turns waxy and coats everything, unlike petro oil that gets thin and runs off. I'm telling you, it's like castor oil was made for this use.

[niles]

You guys are blowing my mind with this stuff. I've been brainwashed by the oil tycoons. Keep up the great research!

[cygnus x-1]

Oh, there is wax all over the place. I've already pulled the driveshafts and found wax all over the wheel bearings. That's what won me over for this application. When the oil gets hot, it turns waxy and coats everything, unlike petro oil that gets thin and runs off. I'm telling you, it's like castor oil was made for this use.

Well yeah, except that eventually it will get thick enough that it won't flow anymore, and you'll end up with a diff packed full of wax. It takes more energy to move that thick oil/wax mixture, which means temperatures will go up and efficiency will go down. It may take a long time for this to happen so maybe just keep an eye on the temps and open it periodically to check for wear. As long as there is still liquid oil splashing the gears it should be ok.

C|

[carotman]

I would be worried about camshaft wear with canola oil in the crankcase. They put zinc additives in oil to prevent this kind of wear.

[HLW]

Engine oil also has friction modifiers to get the multi-weight rating and detergents to help keep the engine clean

[niles]

I'm sure the DOT and all motor oil suppliers have done similar research. If only we could see their results in a convenient PowerPoint presentation. Anyone know if the DOT specs are even available to the public without someone's interpretation getting in the way? I'm data hungry

Edit: never mind, Wikipedia knows all!

[Dr_Snooz]

I would be worried about camshaft wear with canola oil in the crankcase. They put zinc additives in oil to prevent this kind of wear.


Engine oil also has friction modifiers to get the multi-weight rating and detergents to help keep the engine clean

Yes. They do all kinds of stuff to petro oils. That's because they are all so uniformly terrible. If I intended to fill my diff with cotton balls, I'd have to do some mighty tweaking to keep it from blowing up. Same with petro oil. You put that crap in your car and it doesn't work, thus all the creativity employed to make it work. My theory behind all this is that a lot of the hocus pocus is unnecessary if you simply use a decent oil to begin with. Obviously that requires data to prove and my results so far are promising.

But seriously guys, don't take my word for it, just read the research: http://www.3geez.com/forum/classic-honda-community-chat/78265-using-castor-oil-differential.html#post1101061

[Dr_Snooz]

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, grape seed oil works great as a chainsaw bar and chain oil.

I'm still trying to figure out a vegetable based 2 stroke oil. If anyone has any ideas, I'm open.

[HLW]

Snooz, not all comercially avsilable engine oils are perrolium based. G oil is a vegetable oil based fully synthetic engine oil. It still has viscosity modifiers and detergents in it. The detergents are to clean the comtaminants that get past the piston rings. The contaminants will slowly turn the engine oil to sludge which is why the engine oil change intervals are what they are. Synthetic oils have more detergents allowing for longer change intervals.

With castor oil turning to wax at high temps means it will turn into the engine damaging sludge from the engine's heat without adding the contaminants.

[conozo]

The 3g is the only engine I have with a gauge, but I'm torn. I've read on some discussion boards where people have run canola in car engines for short periods without any trouble. Overall, I think it will work just fine. God knows it's a lot cheaper than Mobil 1. At high temps, it will be superior to dino oil. My only real concern is cold temps. If the oil congeals in the block, that will be a problem. I've done some testing in the refrigerator, and the canola does freeze up, but only after a few days. It might work fine here in Cali, but maybe not so much in Minnesota.

You can't be worried about being cheap when you are experimenting like this. Expect your experiments to be expensive. Do you know how many light bulbs Edison created before he finally figured it out? If this were me i would be trying it out on cheap motors before using it in real world situations. Motors like generators, mopeds, lawnmowers, ATV, etc..

[Accordtheory]

Compare that to Amsoil's differential operating at a frightening 300F under the same conditions: Proper Differential Maintenance Break-in and Routine (http://www.upmpg.com/lubricationnews/differential_maintenance/)


I clicked on the link and it had nothing to do with amsoil's lubricants, they were referencing a SAE paper. That sure wouldn't make good advertising, "Use our lubricant and your diff will run at 300 degrees"

I don't know too much about oils, but I have spent a little time reading about the theory on sites like bobistheoilguy, etc. I don't know why you say repeatedly that dinosaur oil is shit, when you can get everything from tar to gasoline and thinner from crude, and plastic with a little chemistry I don't understand.

Sure the companies may have a higher profit margin, and thus a vested interest in selling that type of lubricant vs a plant based lube, like how they sell diesel from crude vs diesel made from algae, or whatever that is. But I don't think 100+ years of oil engineering can be beat that easily, pouring in a basically unrefined, unmodified oil vs something like a fully synthetic gear oil, with a carefully formulated additive package. Yeah, I wasn't happy spending about $110 or $120 to fill my front diff, t case and rear diff on my chevy with synthetic fluid, especially after I submerged my diffs and had to do it Again, but that stuff gave me about 2mpg over the non synthetic napa shit, and I can probably leave it in forever now. (Or at least until I install lockers, change the gears, etc)

I also clicked on another one of the links you posted, and the first thing the guy said in it was bullshit, "oil boils at 212 deg". As I'm sure you know, but for anyone reading this who doesn't, water boils at 212, that's why your oil should always be at or slightly above 212 in a motor, to boil the water from blow by out.

From what I understand, the additive packages do a few things, wider allowable temp for a required viscosity range, detergents to prevent sludge build up, EP additives to prevent metal to metal contact wear, etc. Viscosity is for when the bearings are fully hydrodynamic, but when that film isn't strong enough, at lower speeds, you need the EP additive package.

To explain a little more for anyone who doesn't know what I mean by "hydrodynamic", hydro dynamic means "moving liquid". Most if not all bearings in a motor are hydrodynamic, in other words function with a film of oil separating the metal parts. The strength of the film is dependent on the moving speed of the parts. An easy way to picture this is hydroplaning, the concept is exactly the same. You go too slow, and your tires hit the ground again. You turn a driveshaft slow enough under load, that film gets squeezed right out from between those teeth. I remember watching an episode of pinks where some girl did the "world's slowest burnout", I remember thinking, wow, she sure is stupid. Little does she know, doing that is harder on virtually every single part of the driveline than if she just revved it up hard like normal.

Another thing about "waxes", how is a wax going to flow into a bearing? Won't it just get pushed out, and then the bearing will run dry? I'm picturing candle wax or beeswax trying to lubricate a ball bearing, no way would that work.

I don't know. The castor oil may work fine when the driveshaft is spinning fast enough to keep the ring and pinion hydrodynamic, but at a lower speed and higher load, you may see the teeth damaged severely. (like rock crawling or something)

[cygnus x-1]

So what if your diff runs at 300 degrees under extreme conditions? That's not that hot for oil.

But yeah, modern lubricants are pretty damn amazing when you think about it. Synthetic motor oils can last for MANY thousands of miles without breaking down. And the reduction in viscosity (combined with increased lubrication) makes a measurable difference in efficiency. Yes, the oil companies may be giant evil corporations, but they do make some good products.

And as far as using mineral oil base stock, rest assured that as crude oil supply dwindles and prices increase, the oil companies will start looking for plant based alternatives.

C|

[Dr_Snooz]

I filled the 3g crankcase with canola oil today. It is just cheap Wesson crap oil for $8/gal. from Wal-Mart. I let the car idle up to temp and watched the oil pressure. Nothing happened, so I went for a drive. At idle, I'm showing 15 psi. The minimum per the manual is 14. At 3k RPM, I'm showing 55 psi, with the manual listing 54-65 psi as the target range. Those figures are about the same as what I had with regular oil, maybe somewhat lower on the top end. I believe my oil pressure gauge reads about 10 psi low as well. Ambient temp right now is 91F, BTW. All in all, I couldn't find anything to cause undue worry. The pressure was stable for the entire drive, with no erratic movements or anything else to suggest a problem. I noticed some bubbles on the dipstick when I first checked the oil and that caused me concern. Later checks however found no bubbles at all. The car ran good and strong, like it always does. I might try adding some jojoba oil to the canola to see if it raises my pressures.

For those interested in some more reading: Is vegetable-based motor oil the wave of the future? - Wheels.ca (http://www.wheels.ca/feature/is-vegetable-based-motor-oil-the-way-of-the-future/)

[Accordtheory]

Man, that is balsy. I'd do that if I was running out of oil on the side of the road, but not just for the sake of experimentation! I have wondered for years how it would work though. In the link you posted, it says "Since it breaks down at high temperatures, the oil can’t be used on its own in engines; it must be combined with synthetic oils." But it didn't say how high the temperature has to be to break it down. I guess you don't think the motor will be hot enough to do that? The 2 hottest parts for the oil to come in contact with that I can think of right now are the bearings/center section of a turbo, and the backsides of the pistons. The piston temp correlates with engine load, so maybe just avoiding high speed driving up long hills would be enough to make it last, I have no idea.

[running strong]

I would imagine it would work for some time. I wouldn't trust a 3k mile run with it though. However since the idea of oil is to lubricate i would imagine any oil that can sustain high temps would work in a pinch i think.

[Dr_Snooz]

In the link you posted, it says "Since it breaks down at high temperatures, the oil can’t be used on its own in engines; it must be combined with synthetic oils." But it didn't say how high the temperature has to be to break it down. I guess you don't think the motor will be hot enough to do that?

Yeah. Notice that it also says "exceeded expectations by surpassing both conventional and synthetic oils in the tests conducted." Synthetic is the benchmark for motor oil, yet canola beat it. If you read some of the other links I posted, pure canola is better at high heats. It won't break down into sludge and acid like the conventional stuff. The flash point of motor oil is somewhere between 420-485. Canola is 375-475. It's a little lower depending on various factors, but how it breaks down is superior to conventional oil. And here's the deal. If you read the pure research (ie: eggheads in a lab) on canola, it trumps conventional and even synthetic oils in just about every way. It's only when you go to supplier marketing (ie: someone who wants to sell you their expensive, patented, proprietary blend of veggie oil) that there are all these problems with it. Of course, they have a vested interest in convincing you that you need their expensive hocus pocus and not the cheap stuff from Wal-Mart. There isn't a sane business in the world that will admit you can fill your crankcase with plain old salad oil and rock on. The pure research says that, but not the guys hoping for patent protection.

You decide whom to believe.

[niles]

I love this research! I would help if I could, my 3g is my only car ATM so I'm not willing to try anything myself, and honestly I'd try these ideas on something other than my 3g lol... something like a ford tempo hahaha

[Dr_Snooz]

There are three risk areas as I see it. First is the main bearings. Those live on oil pressure, so as long as my oil pressure is in spec, those should be fine.

Second is the rings. If the research I have been reading is correct, then the canola should cling to metal parts better than petro oil. In other words, if the research is correct, then those should also be fine. The research also suggests that veggie oil is more tolerant of contamination by gas and combustion by products. I can somewhat monitor what's going on with the rings by watching the vacuum gauge I installed. Other than that, I just watch my rear view for blue smoke. (!)

The last trouble spot is the cam and valve train. I might end up with a scored cam lobe, or possibly a bad journal. Those are relatively easy to repair though and my ears should tell me if there is anything wrong there. So far, I haven't seen any signs of trouble.

It takes a lot of courage though.

[running strong]

It takes a lot of courage though.

It really does. Good luck, keep us updated.

[Dr_Snooz]

Here's some background reading for anyone interested. The research being done now is for motor oil. I'm having a harder time getting info on diff oils. Hence my question. From everything I'm reading, the vegetable oils are vastly superior to anything petroleum. Early petroleum lubes were pretty dismal, which is probably why Cadillac specified that vegetable oil be used in their diffs. Castor is still used in hydraulic applications today.

Research being done on vegetable motor oil at Purdue. (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-029.html) - "In terms of functionality, [vegetable-based motor oils] have exceeded expectations by surpassing both conventional and synthetic oils in the tests conducted." Tests included lubrication, thermal breakdown, ash production, acid formation, fuel economy and emissions.

Patent for a vegetable based motor oil (1999). (http://www.google.com/patents/US5888947)

Guy who dumped used vegetable oil in his crankcase to see what would happen. (http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/rightlivelihood/fuel/vegemotoroilsdialog.htm) - It ran fine.

Chicago Tribune article on vegetable-based motor oils. (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2001-06-11/business/0106110001_1_motor-oil-lubrication-vegetable-oils) - "The benefits of the bio-oil over petroleum oils include more than 20 percent reduction in engine wear, 50 percent better lubricity, 60 percent reduction in oil consumption, 3 percent improvement in gas mileage and significant reductions in tailpipe emissions."

Company selling vegetable-based motor oil right now at many Wal-Marts. (http://www.getg.com/engineOil.php) (I've learned that they actually use beef tallow)

Consortium developing vegetable-based motor oils. (http://www.kiowacountycolo.com/sf-oil.htm)

Anyway, I'm wondering if someone knows someone who might have tried a vegetable oil in something like a diff.

Edit: It looks like Jojoba oil can be used as an extreme pressure additive in any oil. Adding it to the castor oil might be wise. It might make a good substitute ATF too.

These links are really worth reading. Some excerpts are below.

""Early petroleum motor oils were highly ineffective. These oils were composed of basically three hydrocarbon types: naphthalene, paraffin, and aromatics. None of these structures are chemically functional and petroleum chemists quickly found the addition of phosphates and sulfur improved the lubrication ability of petroleum. By chemically functional, the components of petroleum are considered inert materials and basically function as carriers of metallic salts that provide the basic lubrication needs of modern internal combustion engines."

"vegetable oils have a very significant improvement in lubricity and durability over petroleum oil
lubricants 'Pin-and-vee analysis conducted by Rhodes Consulting show significantly less friction and a reduced friction for a prolonged period of time when compared to a conventional 5W30 motor oil. Comparisons of the oil with a synthetic 10W50 show the bio-based oils also outperform synthetic oils.'"

" the bio-oils produced significantly less ash buildup."

"In conventional oil comparisons, petroleum oils failed at 400 psi while the canola-based oils failed at 1050 psiÉ In comparisons to synthetic oils, the synthetic oils began to fail at 400 psi failure of the bio-based oils did not occur until 825 psi."

"Oxidative stability analysis (RBOT) was able to demonstrate that bio-based motor oils were more chemically stabile than 10W30 petroleum oils under extreme heat and pressure."

"By conversion of one million vehicles to a bio-based motor oil, the United States could annually reduce hydrocarbons by 1,214.8 t, carbon monoxide by 96,444 t, and nitrous oxides by 1,561.1 t"

None of this is my opinion. There is hard research to suggest that my experiment is yielding very real benefits over petro oil. You can only study so much. Eventually you have to try it out. If all this research is correct, I'm a fool to continue using petro oil any longer than I have to.

I'll probably transition over to bio oil in my 2 stroke motors when my conventional stuff runs out (which takes a long time). Apparently, castor oil is simply the best 2 stroke oil you can use. Soy oil also shows promise.

Stay tuned for more!

[cygnus x-1]

These links are really worth reading. Some excerpts are below.

""Early petroleum motor oils were highly ineffective. These oils were composed of basically three hydrocarbon types: naphthalene, paraffin, and aromatics. None of these structures are chemically functional and petroleum chemists quickly found the addition of phosphates and sulfur improved the lubrication ability of petroleum. By chemically functional, the components of petroleum are considered inert materials and basically function as carriers of metallic salts that provide the basic lubrication needs of modern internal combustion engines."


This statement is not really relevant since we are no longer using "early" petroleum motor oils.


Also, not that the study does not use straight canola oil:

"The canola-based motor oil project was initiated in 1996 in response to a need for a motor oil compatible with, and nontoxic to, fragile ecosystems. The oils are composed primarily of high oleic canola as the base oil. This oil is combined with sources of hydroxy fatty acids and wax esters or estilides. Additional modifications include the inclusion of bio-based pour-point depressants and supplemental antioxidants. The components and formulations are available in US Patent No. 5,888,947 (1999)."

This is not to say that straight canola won't work, but as you pointed out it's likely not suitable for use in colder temperatures. And without the anti-oxidants it may polymerize and need to be changed more often. Polymerization is a common problem with people that are using vegetable oil as a substitute for diesel fuel.

C|

[Dr_Snooz]

The point I was making is that petroleum oil is a terrible oil for use in a crankcase as evidenced by these early, relatively un-engineered oils. It was only after some heavy duty chemical wizardy that petro oil became relatively useful. Compared to that, straight canola is easily superior.

I can't speak to polymerization, but I'm mindful that even though things are going fine now, they could deteriorate over time. I'm keeping an eye on everything to see if that happens. I don't consider myself to have crossed the finish line by any stretch and have already modified the crankcase mix slightly (more below). I do feel that after having driven 100 miles or so with no apparent problems, I've proven the concept, which is a giant victory in itself.

First, with the last oil fill, which I think was G Oil's (beef fat based) oil, my vacuum was 19-20 Hg. With the canola, it's running 20-21 Hg. So it's better, suggesting less friction in the engine with the canola fill. Ergo, I am no longer worried about excessive ring wear. I'm not really worried about valve wear either. The noisy valve trains on these cars will let me know if anything is out of the ordinary. So far, they've been quiet.

Second, the straight canola fill seems a little thin to me. After a several mile uphill climb, the oil pressure started to drop a little (into the 40s at 3k RPM). Nothing significant, but it was clear that the oil thins somewhat under extended heat and load conditions. To compensate, I have added 4 oz, of jojoba oil to the canola fill. Jojoba is an ungodly tough oil with a smoke point of 563F and a viscosity equivalent to the heaviest weight petro oils. It's also quite expensive ($12 for the 4 oz at Whole Foods), but a little goes a very long way. The 4 oz. were more than enough to keep pressure at the oil relief level for my entire drive home through 95F heat and uphill climbing. Probably 1 or 2 oz. would have been sufficient.

Next time, I might try a mix of canola and castor. I've been debating castor for a while in this application. Castor turns into a sticky wax when subjected to heat and pressure. It will actually seek out hot metal parts and bond to them, reducing wear. That's great in a diff, but in a crankcase, I would hate to clog an oiling orifice and burn a ring. Having thought more about it, however, I realize that we buy Slick 50 to do pretty much what the castor does naturally. In future, I might experiment with adding castor oil instead of jojoba. I wouldn't be comfortable with castor exclusively, but as a supplement to the canola fill, I think it would work very well. Castor is cheaper and its cold weather performance is vastly superior to that of jojoba (jojoba freezes at 50F). Castor is slightly better in cold weather than even canola.

Still, I'm not sure that the dip in oil pressure was anything out of the ordinary, so mixing may not be necessary at all. I can't remember seeing that drop happen with petro oil, but I didn't pay nearly as much attention to the oil gauge then as I do now. I need to do some reading up on oil pressure needs and requirements to see what's what. I could easily add enough jojoba oil to overwhelm the relief valve and cause big problems with high oil pressure. Conversely, I could use a very light oil like grapeseed or sesame and wreck a bearing from low oil pressure. I need to figure out what the sweet spot is and how much variance is acceptable under given conditions. I'm looking for the perfect balance here.

Finally, this is an old car so it has oil leaks. With canola, wherever I drive, I bring a soft nutty aroma with me as it burns off. :D

As always, thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

[carotman]

What do you think about using castor oil on a motorcycle chain?

I've been using different kind of lubricants on my motorcycle chain, some were good, some were bad.

Honda recommends 90W oil. This works great but it flings a bit when riding. I have to clean the chain area more than I like to.
I've tried the Motul C2 stuff. This thing was awful. It didn't fling as much as the 90W oil but the chain became dirty and didn't last as long.
I'm now using the Dupont Chain saver stuff. It doesn't fling, smells good and lubricates well.

I would prefer to use an environment friendly lube that doesn't fling too much. If castor oil turns into a waxy substance under pressure and heat, this might be a good solution.

[cygnus x-1]

What do you think about using castor oil on a motorcycle chain?

I've been using different kind of lubricants on my motorcycle chain, some were good, some were bad.

Honda recommends 90W oil. This works great but it flings a bit when riding. I have to clean the chain area more than I like to.
I've tried the Motul C2 stuff. This thing was awful. It didn't fling as much as the 90W oil but the chain became dirty and didn't last as long.
I'm now using the Dupont Chain saver stuff. It doesn't fling, smells good and lubricates well.

I would prefer to use an environment friendly lube that doesn't fling too much. If castor oil turns into a waxy substance under pressure and heat, this might be a good solution.


For chains I prefer dry lubes, like teflon sprays because they don't fling and don't attract dirt. They do need to be applied more often and don't stand up to heavy water though. In wet conditions you need a thicker oil to repel water. Usually this means more mess.

Castor oil might lube well but a chain wont get hot enough to turn it waxy. I guess you could try vegetable shortening or even lard, but those will probably attract dirt just as much as heavy oil does.


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[Dr_Snooz]

Well, for those of you who have been quietly saving up your I-told-you-so's, today is your day to cash them in. It turns out that canola oil does break down under heat. It also breaks down without refrigeration. Or sitting out in the open air. It goes rancid quickly and loses whatever superior lubricating qualities it might have theoretically had. In short, it's a joke. That nutty aroma is the smell of canola degrading into little more than black water. That odd loss of pressure on the hill climb is the only warning you will get that your engine has already burned up. By the time you see it, you're already screwed. I now have rod knock. <br><br>Let the I-told-you-so's commence. <br><br>But hold on to them until you hear the best part of the story. I didn't blow up an engine with canola. I blew up two engines. At the same time that I filled up the 3g with canola, I also filled up the truck and it now has rod knock too. And I have no way to get to work. Doh.<br><br>I realize, somewhat belatedly, that I don't have the resources to conduct research into alternative lubricants, so I'm calling it quits. The canola I put into the braking system went badly rancid and stank something awful. Though I didn't notice any braking issues, I've drained it pending a refill of normal brake fluid when I manage to scrape together the funds for a new engine. I don't expect any big braking failures, but I do expect a lot of bleeding and much swearing. <br><br>The good news is the castor oil. I drained the diff, expecting God only knows what and was pleasantly surprised. The oil didn't seem to have broken down any. It was fairly clean and didn't stink, though it did have some black cloudiness toward the bottom. I didn't see any filings and the internal magnet didn't seem to have any buildup. Nor did I notice any wax anywhere. The wax I did see was at the wheel bearings when I inspected those some months ago (this is a full floating axle design where the wheel bearings are lubricated by the diff oil). Apparently, the wheel bearings get hotter than the diff. I refilled with regular diff oil and though I've driven it a couple times, I haven't noticed any diff noise. Of course, even if it made noise, it would be hard to hear it over the godawful droning that my new lumber rack makes. The rack is for a regular cab and I have an extended cab. That puts the bar right in the middle of my roof and the air turbulence coming off the bar resonates the sheet metal horrendously. Anyway, call the castor experiment inconclusive.<br><br>To close the loop on the bio-oil experiment, there is promise in using castor oil. Canola is a total waste of time. All that "research" I read about it was the typical red herring, environmental, alternative crap we keep getting. Every lab in the country should be studying castor oil for engine oil applications. Instead they are farting around with useless canola. Thirty years from now, they'll still be studying it, trying to make it work, using every horrible technology to "improve" it. And we'll still be filling up with gasoline and petro oil. Though I am an environmentalist, I see this same problem with everything trotted out as "green." Every real alternative is suppressed and some red herring, blind alley is substituted. Every lab in the country should be studying ways for people to power their homes from biogas they make at home. Instead, they're piddling around with useless PV solar...that we buy from China. We should be encouraging small, family-owned, biodynamic farms. Instead, we're driving people off the land with Agenda 21, warehousing them in megacities (which are environmental atrocities) and giving the land to Monsanto. We should be driving ethanol fueled cars and making the ethanol at home, from yard waste. Instead, we have the Prius anti-car. God we're in trouble. <br><br>Enough ranting. I'm going to find a dark, quiet place to lick my wounds and ponder the error of my ways.

[2oodoor]

What the....I didnt know you were going to use the crap as motor oil, geez I could have told ya that no no. Its like putting sugar in yur gas, it sets up sticky and doesn't budge, Ive seen that on my deep fryer, which I seldom use btw. I want to say glueten is a by product but I would have to look into it if I gave a crap, walmart full synthetic is like 20 bucks for 5 qts ...about cheeper than cornholio oil:D

Youre maybe lucky if you risolene the honda motor out at a low rpm and clean it out then put a set of bearings in it in frame rebuild leave the head on, do one at a time. The chevy...heh once they start kenock kenock clacka they gone. Too many places for the popcorn oil to hide in that one, it'll neeed a though and threw. Hope I have no idea what im talking about.

[running strong]

That sucks man sorry to hear about your loss. I was hoping you would come back with good news. Are you going to go with new motors, or gamble on a junkyards?

[cygnus x-1]

I have to say I'm a bit surprised things went bad that quickly. How many miles did you get on the veg oil?

I think your mistake was not in the believing that canola could be used for engine oil, but that cooking oil could be used as motor oil. It's also possible that the residual petroleum oil left behind when you did the switch over had a negative effect on the veg oil. I think eventually veg-based oils will be useful as replacements for petroleum based oils in many applications. But it will still take some chemical wizardry to make them stable for extended use. And that isn't a bad thing.

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[Dr_Snooz]

Youre maybe lucky if you risolene the honda motor out at a low rpm and clean it out then put a set of bearings in it in frame rebuild leave the head on, do one at a time.

I had thought about that. The engine is still very new from the rebuild I did a couple years ago. I think I might be able to get away with just a bearing swap and some drips in the face. It won't cost much to try it. I'm just trying to figure out what else would have been impacted by the bad oil. I think the vacuum is still fairly good and the valve train doesn't make any noise. Is there something else I might be missing? What if it's a main bearing and not a rod? Can I access all the main bearings from below? Is there a way to know which is which?

The truck only has 120k miles on it, and is still in very good shape. I plan to do a full engine rebuild to the tune of $2,000. I can't find an equivalent truck for the same money so it makes sense to me.


I have to say I'm a bit surprised things went bad that quickly. How many miles did you get on the veg oil?

Not even close to 1,000. The canola just isn't stable at all. In hindsight, some stability testing in different environmental conditions would have been wise. Like setting it out in the sun for a few days to see what happens, or heating it up to smoke point in a fry pan to see how it behaves, etc. I did a lot of cold flow testing by putting oils in the refrigerator, but it never occurred to me that canola would be so fragile in operation. Castor proved to be much more stable than canola, though admittedly under very different conditions. I don't think canola will ever be a useful base oil based on how poorly it held up for me. Castor makes a lot more sense.

[Oldblueaccord]

Well heck you tried!

Hopefully you can get away with new bearings.

On the truck I would just drain it and put some cheap motor oil in it and see what happens.

[Dr_Snooz]

I was driving the truck today, because I still have work to do, and I realized that if it weren't for the knocking, I wouldn't know that anything is wrong with the engine. It's like only the bearings got eaten, leaving the compression entirely unaffected. I might try a compression test to see what I learn. Is it completely insane to think that the canola could have destroyed the bearings without also affecting the rings and valves? I watched the oil pressure gauge maniacally and it never ran low, so low pressure didn't destroy those bearings. Is it possible that the canola became acidic, ate the bearings but left everything else alone?

[running strong]

I'm almost wondering, is it like a rod knock, or like piston slap? There are differences in the knocking sound.

[cygnus x-1]

The majority of the load is on the bearings, so those would go out first. The cylinders and pistons may also be scored up but that wouldn't make any noise really. My guess is you could probably do a bearing change on the mains and rods and limp it along for awhile longer. But probably it will need a rebuild, which means rebore and new pistons, new bearings, possibly new cam and lifters if those are worn. The valves might still be ok.

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[carotman]

Try to run it with thicker oil and see if the noise softens

[2oodoor]

..basic anything as if you did an oil change and forgot to put oil back in it but discoverd it shortly thereafter, except with the addition of scorched "STP" like substance...remember that stuff?
Out of the 100,000 oil changes ive done over the years, one was a 3.0 Ford v6 of which I goofed multitasking and denyed it new oil. Well it ran about 5-10 min before it was realized and very quickly got 5 qts put in it. No noises, ran fine but inside a week it started knocking while on the road and locked up.
Then Ive seen other guys do similar goofs as well, different engines, 4,6 Ford was no issue, 5.0 sb chevy was toast, both after oil was granted. Mopar slant 6, everybodys heard a story or two about those, ran for weeks with allegedly no or not much oil lol
I hardly think piston slap in a Chevy would be the case here considering the other vulnerabilitiesof those engines before it gets to wobbly pistons, but then I may be wrong.

[Dr_Snooz]

I'm doing a vacuum test right now. What I have is a very rapid fluctuation between 17 and 19 Hg. Normal would be steady at somewhere between 15-22 Hg. If I blip the throttle, the vacuum goes to zero and then back up to 23 before going back down. Basically normal. I'm still trying to figure out what the rapid fluctuation means, but the closest I can get is poorly seated valves. In other words, an old engine (120k miles pulling a very heavy truck camper), but no real evidence of oil starvation. I don't have my tools here today, so I'll have to wait with a compression test.

The knocking is only under load. If I'm gentle (and I am), there is no knocking. I've already added Lucas (very thick oil additive). Oil pressure is steady at ~40 psi at idle ~50-55 psi at 55 MPH. It would obviously be lower without the Lucas, but probably still well within spec.

RooDoo, how hard is it to change engine bearings with the engine still in the truck? Can I expect to find a buggered crank or some other catastrophic problem if I try?

[Dr_Snooz]

Some more reading reveals that rapid fluctuation indicates weak valve springs and possibly worn valve guides.

[Oldblueaccord]

Some more reading reveals that rapid fluctuation indicates weak valve springs and possibly worn valve guides.

Sounds about like every Chevy V 8 i ever have heard.

[Dr_Snooz]

Well, the word back from the machine shop is that the engine was in very good shape. I didn't get the engine bearings down to copper, so I got it early enough to prevent any expensive damage. No repairs were needed to the crankshaft. Everything else looks great.

What I found then, was that there are three problems with canola oil in a crankcase.

It goes rancid very quickly. I'm not sure how that impacts lubricity though.
It seems to turn into a thick, goopy gel. I discovered some of this in the bottom of my waste oil pan. Probably not a big deal though.
It needs an additive to keep the bearings from getting destroyed. The same is true of petro oil, I think.