4x100 Conversion Discussion

[2ndGenGuy]

I thought instead of hijacking Hazwan's 4x100 conversion thread, that I'd start new discussion here.


If you were going for 2g Prelude rear discs I'd go with the 2g Accord hubs (& maybe early 2g Prelude) just for the wheel studs, though I guess they could be pressed into either Hub before assembly?
Still surprised hubs/driveshafts were different for US for '81 but there had been hints of this in Hazwans earlier 4x100 query post where we found their part numbers differed in US online partbooks for that year & the experiences of others with swapping driveshafts on '81's.
But Honda can be inscrutable. I found that Honda's Quintet; the Preludes closest cousin, kept the old driveshafts into '82-4!

Yeah, I think the reason that they kept the smaller driveshafts, is because they kept the smaller engine. I bet that where Hazwan is, (Maybe you too) that the car came with a 1.6 through it's whole life, so they kept the same size splines. I think when we updated in the US to a 1.8, that we got hte bigger shafts. It's like the 2nd Gen Accord, when the SEi came out in 85, it used bigger shafts and bearings than the carbureted car, even though it was a lower production number. And that size wheel bearing carried on up into the 3rd gen.

I'm thinking that what I'm going to do now, is get the 82 Accord "Hub Repair Kit" that I found on Rock Auto. It uses the same wheel bearing, same spline count, same seals and everything as the 1st gen. The only difference is the hub. And it has wheel studs! And it's $45/side with the hubs, bearings and all the seals.

I took my 84 Accord stock axles to see just for shits and giggles in my 81 Hubs. Well the splines on the 81 go all the way back to the end of the stub, and the 84 splines only go about 3/4 of the way back. So the 84 Axles won't fit into the 81 hub, but it should work the other way around. So no matter which way the 82 hubs are configured, I believe that the 81 Axles should fit in, since they are fully splined.

[Hazwan]

My head exploded by just reading that.

[2ndGenGuy]

I'll include PICS to show what I mean!! :D

[2ndGenGuy]

Well, I'm waiting on my 82 hub kit to come in. In the mean time, I found some 2g Prelude discs at the wrecking yard. So I pulled every part down to the hubs, and started test fitting it.

http://i.imgur.com/SEETe.jpg

Caliper bracket bolts right up.
http://i.imgur.com/oLyNn.jpg

And the wheel bearings fit right onto the stubs...
http://i.imgur.com/5MlyR.jpg

Except now I have a problem. The wheel bearing seals sit too far out on the hub, and they hit just before the inner wheel bearing seats itself. The 81 Accord seals sit flush with the hub, while the Prelude ones sit on top of the edge of the hub. So now I gotta figure out if I need to use different bearings, or try to find a different bearing seal...

[2ndGenGuy]

Well, all I can figure is that the base of the axle stub on the 81 Accord is just a TINY bit shorter than the Prelude. I took the caliper bracket off, and the seal barely clears the area where the backing plate bolts onto.

You can see here, how the Prelude's seal sits on top.
http://i.imgur.com/fJsN5.jpg

While the Accord's is flush.
http://i.imgur.com/Lz4Gs.jpg

The way I can see it, I have a few options.

1. Put a spacer behind the inner wheel bearing to space the rotor out just a touch.
2. Have a machinist bore out the center of the caliper bracket. Not such a great idea as it centers the bracket nicely.
3. Figure out a way to grind off that lip without ruining the seal...

[2ndGenGuy]

Well I cut off that lip on the seal. It's better, but still not perfect. Going to try to find a shim tomorrow that I can use...

[79cord]

Could you use the Accord seal?
I can't remember that difficulty but would have measured the stubaxle spindle to check they were the same. It shouldn't matter but my Prelude brakes may have been '83 & had ALB wheel sensor I left off.

[2ndGenGuy]

Crap. I was hoping you would have the definite solution ;)

I tried the Accord seal. It's too big to fit inside the Prelude hub... :(

I'm going to try to find shims tomorrow. I need something with 30mm ID, about 3mm thick and about a 35mm OD. Wish me luck...

[Hazwan]

Interesting PICS (Y)

[Hazwan]

Fuck come to think of it, I honestly don't remember if I ever had any problems with my Civic drums clearance. I figured since they bolt right in they should work fml I gotta recheck.

[2ndGenGuy]

I only noticed it because when I tightened the spindle nut down, the rotor got hard to turn, but was still sloppy. It felt gummy. I'm sure you would have noticed.

[Hazwan]

Mine won't turn at all if I over tighten the nut, which is normal.. right? But they stay in there just fine, no sloppiness or whatsoever so I think I'm good. I might check them again just in case.

[79cord]

He had me wondering about my rear bearing fit as well, & they've been on the car YEARS...
Looking at online partbooks suggested that USA didn't get 2g Prelude with disc brakes until '85, & even then only on upper spec. "Si" but still without the ALB Australia had standard upon them since '83. UK Partbooks suggest the older ALB disc rotor and caliper brkts had different part numbers, though same bearings & seal, hub/stub-axle/spindle.
Don't know what that means though.

[2ndGenGuy]

Well I found some steel "machine bushings" that are just about the right diameter and about 1.5mm thick. So I'm going to try those, and then space out the caliper with a couple of washers to match the rotor, we will see how that goes this evening!

[2ndGenGuy]

Well I installed the shim tonight, I put it in behind the wheel seal.

http://i.imgur.com/VwHLB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EzCY4.jpg

It works fucking awesome! The seal clears now, and the rotor isn't even spaced out far enough to make much difference on the caliper bracket. It's nice and tight, spins freely without binding on the bearing seal.

Here it is with the caliper on it. I still have a couple of clearance issues on that now...

http://i.imgur.com/7ARCh.jpg

First is the lower bolt on the caliper to the slider is in the way of the lower control arm mounting bolt. I think I'll probably end up bolting that onto the caliper bracket before I mount the bracket.

http://i.imgur.com/YPhip.jpg

The second thing is the e-brake cable bracket, it hits the strut. Luckily, I can cut that thing off (weight reduction!) since the e-brake cables don't come in from that direction anyways.

http://i.imgur.com/tHCLy.jpg

Plenty of clearance here from the rotor to caliper bracket!

http://i.imgur.com/piT8z.jpg

And just for shits and giggles, here's the wheels I'm going to mount on the car...

http://i.imgur.com/DbXjM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XTAcH.jpg

[Hazwan]

Resize your pics noob.

[2ndGenGuy]

HA! I applied the resize like 6 times last night. Not sure why it's not working. I'll just reupit.

[2oodoor]

Those look good$
I was going to suggest another brand seal, Ive run in to that on trucks where the design of the seal was slightly differnt on the same app between brands.
Brilliant fix you came up with.

[79cord]

Yes that caliper bolt / lower wishbone bolt situation is a little aukward isn't it.. The Prelude guys complain about it too. My Accord has 15-16mm to fit that caliper bolt into giving 8-9mm clearance once they are all done up.
I really only ground a corner off that handbrake cable mounting for strut clearance.

I should poke my rear disc pictures in here too shouldn't I.
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/3208/4541/20519770029_large.jpg?v=0
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/3208/4541/20519770027_large.jpghttp://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/3208/4541/20519770028_large.jpg
Two views from above of the custom handbrake actuator lever extension I made from an old drum brake actuator lever trimmed and extended towards the rear then drilled & tapped so it could bolt to the underside of the calipers handbrake cable mounting. This adapts the calipers fore-aft handbrake actuation to work with the Accords original transversely located handbrake cables but must also clear the rear strut as the handbrake is applied.
Clearances are tight, I wasn't convinced it would all fit then for ages I was worried I might need slightly longer handbrake cables & actually bought some 1g Prelude cables just in case (slightly wider rear track), but it all worked out OK.
Thus I retained my all Accord's original hand brake cables & layout. The alternative would have been to adapt the complete 2g Accord or Prelude fore-aft cable arrangement which would be a major pain as they had moved the cable adjustment & left/right side cable split into the cabin behind the handbrake lever; exactly where the '76-'80 Accords mount their frt seatbelt latches ('81's were relocated) so his change would be a major pain to accommodate.

[79cord]

15" wheel look huge don't they?
Amazing how much those wheels look like Hazwans old wheels, but just that little bit bigger! :)
I assume being Mazda wheels they need their centre-bore hole enlarged 1mm to match Honda's. I have bought some early MX-5/Miata 14" and MX-3 15" alloy wheels I should attack still...

[2ndGenGuy]

Those look good$
I was going to suggest another brand seal, Ive run in to that on trucks where the design of the seal was slightly differnt on the same app between brands.
Brilliant fix you came up with.

Thanks, yeah I was just glad it worked out! I tried some other brands, but they all looked the same. Last resort was to ream out the middle of the caliper brackets, which really probably wouldn't have hurt a thing, but this was much less work.


Yes that caliper bolt / lower wishbone bolt situation is a little aukward isn't it.. The Prelude guys complain about it too. My Accord has 15-16mm to fit that caliper bolt into giving 8-9mm clearance once they are all done up.
I really only ground a corner off that handbrake cable mounting for strut clearance.

...

Two views from above of the custom handbrake actuator lever extension I made from an old drum brake actuator lever trimmed and extended towards the rear then drilled & tapped so it could bolt to the underside of the calipers handbrake cable mounting. This adapts the calipers fore-aft handbrake actuation to work with the Accords original transversely located handbrake cables but must also clear the rear strut as the handbrake is applied.
Clearances are tight, I wasn't convinced it would all fit then for ages I was worried I might need slightly longer handbrake cables & actually bought some 1g Prelude cables just in case (slightly wider rear track), but it all worked out OK.
Thus I retained my all Accord's original hand brake cables & layout. The alternative would have been to adapt the complete 2g Accord or Prelude fore-aft cable arrangement which would be a major pain as they had moved the cable adjustment & left/right side cable split into the cabin behind the handbrake lever; exactly where the '76-'80 Accords mount their frt seatbelt latches ('81's were relocated) so his change would be a major pain to accommodate.

That's awesome. I saw those pics on CarDomain, but its good to have the larger ones on here, plus some detail how you did it. I'll probably copy your design. It's pretty much just what I was thinking about as I was taking them off the car at the yard.


15" wheel look huge don't they?
Amazing how much those wheels look like Hazwans old wheels, but just that little bit bigger! :)
I assume being Mazda wheels they need their centre-bore hole enlarged 1mm to match Honda's. I have bought some early MX-5/Miata 14" and MX-3 15" alloy wheels I should attack still...

I got a drum sander. So I think that I'm going to give it a go myself. If I mess it up too badly, I can always have a machine shop ream them out a bit bigger and make me some centering rings to bring the size back down. I figure it's only 1mm, how hard can it really be? :cool:

[2ndGenGuy]

Well, again, the parts that I expected to fit, did NOT. Since I had the rear wheels figured out, I went ahead and got my front hubs for the 82 Accord. They fit perfectly on the 81's axle shafts, but there is a small problem.

I don't know if you can tell by this picture or not, but the rear face of the 82 hub is actually quite a bit closer to the face of the knuckle.

http://i.imgur.com/287dX.jpg

So what happened when I tried to press it in?

http://i.imgur.com/V8V87.jpg

It bottomed out on the knuckle before the hub seated against the bearing. So fuck.

So, I'm going to take a big fat risk, and grind off the face of the knuckle a few milimeters, and see if I can get the clearance that I need. I already fucked this wheel bearing, because I have to pull the hub out of it. This shit is getting expensive.

[1GCustomAccord]

The bearing will be ok if you remove it in a press.
Just curious: Can't you use a spacer to get the correct clearance?

[2ndGenGuy]

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what to space out exactly...

I can't space out the bearing, because it's held in by a circlip. If it moves outward inside the spindle, it will cover the groove that holds the circlip in place.

I don't think I can put a spacer between the bearing and the hub, because then the outer wheel bearing seal may not sit.

Also, trying to find the right spacers that fit would be impossible. I'd have to have some made, I'm pretty sure.

Unless there's something I'm missing? I am pretty sure it's only like 2-3mm that needs to come off of the face of that spindle.

I'm in sort of a debacle right now, because the hub puller that goes on the end of my slide hammer doesn't fit the 4x100 lug pattern. So I can't pull the hub out. And I can't press the bearing out with the hub on it, because it's held in with the circlip... I used the slide hammer to take off the original hub, and it came out SO easily. I can only get 2 lugnuts on the puller with this new hub, and it's pulling at an angle, so it doesn't really wanna come out at all...

This is exactly what I need right here...

http://www.hondacivicrepairs.com/views/honda-civic-knuckle-hub-puller2.JPG
I have the slide hammer, but the auto parts store says they don't have the smaller end for the slide hammer. I don't think the guy on the phone knew what he was talking about. I'll have to walk over there in the morning and see what they've got.

[79cord]

Drat, sorry to hear of this problem. Another headache after we made it sound easy.
My car is using the 2nd gen Accord hubs, but having the earlier '76-'79 bolt-on bearing retainer I only had to countersink some new retaining bolts to clear the ends of the wheel studs. Amazing that you should have that problem when Honda used the same circlip retaining concept for 2g.. Now where did I put those old 2g hub carriers? I want to measure the circlip area now.

[2ndGenGuy]

Hahaah! Can you fucking believe it? I got the wrong part again! I get a fucked up order from Rock Auto with one hub that's completely wrong, and the right hub is missing all it's seals. So I buy a pair of hubs locally, and I get one correct hub, and one wrong hub from them, but at least I got the right bearings! I sure fucking hope!


The one on the left is the correct hub. The one on the right, is the one I tried to press in. It's pretty obvious why it didn't fit. The seal surface is much deeper, and will GIVE ME THE CLEARANCE I NEED YAY! NO MODIFICATION NECESSARY!!
http://i.imgur.com/CHppQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eaa4j.jpg

[2ndGenGuy]

Yep, just pressed in the CORRECT hub, and it works!!! w00t. The auto parts store can take back their broken-ass wheel bearing and give me my money back on this shit.

[MessyHonda]

i want to see a set of fat fives on the 1st gen now

[79cord]

Hooray, Glad to hear the hub fitment fright was unfounded.
Certainly would make you wish you'd opened both boxes before starting. And reinforce distrust of suppliers.
Fat fives would look interesting.. but what would suit the 2nd gen better.

[Hazwan]

OMGYESH FINALLY!!!!!!! Silly parts store haha!

[1GCustomAccord]

Lol you have buncha hubs on your bench. :lol:

[2ndGenGuy]

^^Haha yeah, I guess it's the price of trying to do stuff that hasn't been done a million times, or without a kit!

I like how this is looking. 86 Accord calipers, shimmed 2mm with 2g CRX rotors. Huge compared to the stock rotors!

http://i.imgur.com/jTXop.jpg

[lostscotiaguy]

Hats off to you! Maybe one of us could put together a parts list and guide for this.... I love seeing all that you (And Hazwan as well) have done and figured out but to be embarassingly honest I end up getting lost as to what worked and what didn't. It would be nice to have "The ultimate idiot proof diy guide and parts list" for future readers on here, and idiots like me :dunno:
Too bad it couldn't be as easy as just throwing a different knuckle on. Either way thanks for sharing this with us! I'm sure we'll be seeing some more people doing this. Oh, and 2ndGen guy, not to sound like a creepy creeperton but did you post a vid on youtube with this car? The color of your valve cover looks like the same one I saw of someone who had just done an engine rebuild. It was a short video but the engine was running super quiet and smooth as a sowing machine...I was actually pretty jealous, as mine sounds like a coffee grinder!

[2ndGenGuy]

Hats off to you! Maybe one of us could put together a parts list and guide for this.... I love seeing all that you (And Hazwan as well) have done and figured out but to be embarassingly honest I end up getting lost as to what worked and what didn't. It would be nice to have "The ultimate idiot proof diy guide and parts list" for future readers on here, and idiots like me :dunno:
Too bad it couldn't be as easy as just throwing a different knuckle on. Either way thanks for sharing this with us! I'm sure we'll be seeing some more people doing this. Oh, and 2ndGen guy, not to sound like a creepy creeperton but did you post a vid on youtube with this car? The color of your valve cover looks like the same one I saw of someone who had just done an engine rebuild. It was a short video but the engine was running super quiet and smooth as a sowing machine...I was actually pretty jealous, as mine sounds like a coffee grinder!

Oh don't worry! I plan on putting together an actual, comprehensive swap guide! Complete with the actual parts that you need to do this. It's actually a lot less than you would think! I know it gets confusing, and that's why I made this this "discussion" thread and not the "HowTo." Combining my swap parts list, and the parts that 79Cord and Hazwan used, I think we can cover all the US and other markets in one guide!

And yeah, that was my car. I've posted a few videos of her online. It runs damn nice, I will admit. It need some tweaking to the timing, since I installed a MegaJolt, but starts up so much easier than with a distributor. Literally pump the pedal twice, and hit the starter and it fires up and idles smooth!

[79cord]

I think these will always be guides as there are various brake options depending upon what is available and priorities, especially at the front.
I have 2g CRX/4g Civic Si 242mm discs & calipers with 2mm spacers for mounting the Calipers and believe 3g Prelude calipers {use same pads} will eliminate the need for the spacers (bought but not yet mounted). So any brake upgrades for Non-Vtec 1985-2000 Civics should also work for us, one of these being redrilled legend 262mm early Legend discs (A friend uses Nissan Pulsar {Sentra} discs & Europe use MG ZT190? instead), with early Integra TypeR/Prelude Vtec/ 4g Accord Wagon/2g Legend calipers.

[Hazwan]

So much brake options that MIGHT fit ahhhh too bad the only way to know is to actually go out and give them a try yourself (N) Stupid Honda, knowing them what works for you 2ndGenGuy, might not work for me (N).

Do you happen to have PICS of the rotor side by side with the stock? They look HUGE! And that caliper too!

[79cord]

Wow. Original front disc rotors were 187mm diameter solid... these are 242mm vented.
So a bit bigger. But can still fit within 13" wheels depending upon calipers.

I remember 3g F1 calipers were supposed to be much better that the average 3g Accord caliper. Wonder if they shared pads with anything else?
I found the Civic/Crx Si calipers had much bigger front pads (shared with 3g Prelude) than the basic 4g Civic.

[2ndGenGuy]

The F1 calipers use the same pads as the regular 86-87 Accord. The two piston setup just creates a more even pressure surface across the pad, instead of it being all in the middle. The CRX rotors that I have are actually bigger than the 3g Accord rotors, which weren't much bigger than the 1g Accord rotors.

[2ndGenGuy]

Update! I've been busting my ass on this thing. Replacing all kinds of stuff. Put in new ball joints, painted all the calipers black, got everything tightened down in the front. Reamed out the Miata wheels to fit the Honda hubs. I have one rear brake done. I cut 1/4 of a coil out of the front springs.

I still have to cut the rear springs down to level it, and install the rear Konis. Install the other rear brake. I am waiting to buy all new brake hoses. Then I can bleed it, hook up the e-brake cables using the design from 79Cord that were posted earlier. Then everything should finally be done. Then I will be on to my next project! :D :D

Here are some sneak peak PICS!!!

http://i.imgur.com/wTEuM.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/CPYaQ.jpg

I know, I need better lugnuts too. I am pretty sure I have some capped lugnuts somewhere. The front tires are just EXACTLY lined up with the outer fender. I'm just hoping it won't rub when I hit a bump. :)

[Hazwan]

OH SHIT! What size are they? 15s?

[2ndGenGuy]

Yep, 15x6, 40mm offset, 13.1lbs. :)

[Hazwan]

Man your brakes look tiny still.

[79cord]

That IS looking nice!
The drop is discreet but gives a nice wheelarch gap. Wouldn't that give a gap similar to the rear already with a nice bit of rake for the body?
Though I guess chopping the rear as well would stiffen them and the rear springs are originally a little soft anyway with a full complement of passengers aboard.
Someone has suggested they fitted some early VW Golf/Rabbit diesel front springs to the rear of theirs to stiffen things, and I had spotted some stiffer rear springs from KING springs advertised on Ebay for 1g Accord so I guess others had asked for some to be made.
I guess you remember these
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/3208/4541/20519770122_medium.jpg
which were15x6.5", 38mm offset. 195/50R15 tyres and didn't seem to give any problems... but I do neeeed to lower the frt of mine.. If Hazwan is using that size as well you must be fine!
Shame I need new tyres for them and they weigh a heap to compensate for the fact they were made in Indonesia :sad2:
Must paint & get tyres for those nice light Mugen RNR wheels I have... just not sure if I'd dare to use them regularly..
Did I say how much I like those Mazda wheels..

edit:
The bigger wheels & wide tires really make them look purposeful & memorable don't they! Especially at your new height.

[2ndGenGuy]

You gotta be careful ordering from KING. I was looking at the 2nd gen springs they supposedly make, and thought the dimensions were all wrong. Then, it was confirmed when someone ordered them, and got 3rd gen springs. That was AFTER paying $300 for shipping from Australia. And to boot, they refused to agree that they were the wrong springs. Said they must be different from US to Australia, and that it's not their fault and that they're definitely 2nd gen springs. Despite the fact that the 2g and 3g Accord suspension setups are COMPLETELY different. After seeing them take zero responsibility for that, I'd never buy anything from them again.

[Hazwan]

Okay so tell me if this cant/won't work:

What if I machine the 2g Civic drum so it would end up as a hub for a disk to fit over it and fabricate myself a caliper bracket, enabling me to fit whatever caliper that I want/could find.

I am aware that this might end up bringing out the track a little but but thats not an issue for me :D

The reason for this? Lude parts is hard to find here (N)

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3976/rotorn.jpg

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/6731/caliperk.jpg

[79cord]

Sad that 2g King springs wound up such a disaster & they were unwilling to accept fault. I remember the problem but hadn't heard the final outcome.


Trimming the Civic drums into hubs to mount disc rotor sounds fairly sensible to me.
Though you probably wouldn't have the centre ring protruding out to locate the wheel centre. (Yes I know wheel studs do that but there is often still a legal requirement for this even if achieved by spacer rings on the wheels).
Longer wheel studs might be needed as well.
Would you have room for the wider rear track?
I have been meaning to look at rear hubs from other cars as well just in case they might work.
I also remembered this thread:
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76291

Should I also check costs of buying & posting 2g Prelude setup out from here?

From memory local wrecker would want $35 each for calipers/brackets $20 each for disc rotors, though finding decent thickness discs might be harder & it might be worth your checking cost of buying some new locally? Not sure if Civic/Integra calipers are any different from the Prelude ones but I don't think disc diameter or pads ever changed. Obviously original caliper/bracket couldn't handle the wider track without spacing which might not be a great idea.

[2ndGenGuy]

Well this is the first downside I've found to using the Prelude rear discs. Stupid dust covers are too big and keeping me from being able to install the center caps from my wheels...

http://i.imgur.com/oIytJ.jpg

Hoping I can find some smaller ones or something. Either that, or I'll have to cut the tabs off of the center caps and glue them onto the wheels directly. Those stupid things even gave me problems on my GSR wheels on my 2nd gen. Can't get the caps all the way on...

Here's how she sits now. Car is running great. My brake booster is now leaking though... and I think I need a new master cylinder. It feels like there is still air in the system, though I've bled the shit out of it.

http://i.imgur.com/E08oe.jpg

[79cord]

Looking forward to seeing more of that. It looks great & I think I like that rake.
I can't believe that's only a quarter coil trim!
I didn't think yours had any air-conditioning or power-steer to weigh the front down, though I guess those US bumper-beams & absorber mountings add a bit.
How well did the coils end up fitting their mounts?
My Lancia Beta's front coils had been trimmed when I got it, and were a disaster, hanging off their mounts badly with little to locate them.

[Hazwan]

Raaaaake!

Oh btw I know a solution to your rear cap problem.

Oh and EG booster/master nao!

OH and your rear disk look about as big as my front ones -__-

[Hazwan]

Sad that 2g King springs wound up such a disaster & they were unwilling to accept fault. I remember the problem but hadn't heard the final outcome.


Trimming the Civic drums into hubs to mount disc rotor sounds fairly sensible to me.
Though you probably wouldn't have the centre ring protruding out to locate the wheel centre. (Yes I know wheel studs do that but there is often still a legal requirement for this even if achieved by spacer rings on the wheels).
Longer wheel studs might be needed as well.
Would you have room for the wider rear track?
I have been meaning to look at rear hubs from other cars as well just in case they might work.
I also remembered this thread:
http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76291

Should I also check costs of buying & posting 2g Prelude setup out from here?

From memory local wrecker would want $35 each for calipers/brackets $20 each for disc rotors, though finding decent thickness discs might be harder & it might be worth your checking cost of buying some new locally? Not sure if Civic/Integra calipers are any different from the Prelude ones but I don't think disc diameter or pads ever changed. Obviously original caliper/bracket couldn't handle the wider track without spacing which might not be a great idea.

Come to think of it, I think it might be easier to just try and find the Prelude setup or get that sleeve thinggy instead xD

[2ndGenGuy]

Oh btw I know a solution to your rear cap problem.


YES?! And?!

[2ndGenGuy]

Looking forward to seeing more of that. It looks great & I think I like that rake.
I can't believe that's only a quarter coil trim!
I didn't think yours had any air-conditioning or power-steer to weigh the front down, though I guess those US bumper-beams & absorber mountings add a bit.
How well did the coils end up fitting their mounts?
My Lancia Beta's front coils had been trimmed when I got it, and were a disaster, hanging off their mounts badly with little to locate them.

Ah, no it's actually a 1 1/4 coils. It already had a coil cut in the front from before. I just trimmed an extra 1/4 out.

The coils seemed to fit fine. The top of the coil doesn't really flatten out like the bottom of it does... here's a pic of a stock spring vs the cut one...

http://i.imgur.com/fWtyg.jpg

I think if I had cut it at the bottom, it would a have been a different story, but this seems to fit pretty much just like stock right now.

[2ndGenGuy]

So I just looked online. The stock 81 Accord master cylinder (for the US at least) is 13/16" and the 95 Civic w/o ABS is 15/16". I'm using 86 Accord calipers, which matched up with a 7/8" master cylinder. So I will be a bit bigger than that, but that might be good for the rear disc calipers, which I think have more cylinder area than the drum cylinders.

EDIT: So the 15/16 master cylinder is for the Civic with ABS. Regular 95 Civic Coupe has a 7/8" as well. So I'll probably go with that.

EDIT 2: There's a bunch of different master cylinders... Some even with a 13/16" bore. I am still thinking that the 7/8" one for the Civic Coupe will work. Turns out it's also the same as the 3g Accord master cylinder.

[EM1 ADCT]

Here's my current project using some 2G rear discs on a 1G prelude. I have them currently but haven't had the time or garage to put them on (currently live in a townhouse so my DIY time is rare). They seem to work perfectly on the 1g spindles, but of course it hasn't been 100% proven yet! I did manage to get the bigger SI calipers with them so we'll see where this goes. But HUGE kudos to you and Hazwan for pioneering this stuff. I know 1G lude stuff is not taken into account alot of times but I always keep tabs with you guys because of similar setups we both have!

http://www.g1preludes.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=454

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7055/6838387554_b384df5741_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7190/6984511841_2398492d26_b.jpg

[2ndGenGuy]

Hey that's awesome man! Credit for me goes to 79Cord, who had most of this writeup on his CarDomain. I only had a few small issues to deal with compared to him!

It's good to see this info posted up here too though! Not only is it useful to other Prelude guys, but it shows us that there are some other options for swapping parts around. :) So we do appreciate it! When you get your brake swap done, I would love a how-to written up, and we can stick it in the Classic Prelude section!

EDIT: Just saw your link. Perhaps we could just link to that thread. But it would be nice to have the information mirrored here, in case something happens there. :) It's so weird how your spindle is removable! Amazing those 4 bolts hold it all together!

Also where did you get the diagram for the XXR? Been trying to find more diagrams like that with parts lookups for overseas models but haven't had much luck.

[EM1 ADCT]

Hey that's awesome man! Credit for me goes to 79Cord, who had most of this writeup on his CarDomain.

Same here too! Forgot to mention him as it was the first post I ever read about doing it.


It's good to see this info posted up here too though! Not only is it useful to other Prelude guys, but it shows us that there are some other options for swapping parts around. So we do appreciate it! When you get your brake swap done, I would love a how-to written up, and we can stick it in the Classic Prelude section!

I'd love too, anything to help anyone else for compatibility questions regarding this project. Hopefully I'll have it worked out by spring of next year. :) I will definitely keep you guys posted!

I was a little amazed at the spindle too after looking through all the parts diagrams on Hondapartsnow.com. It seems the 2nd gen civic's had the removable spindle as well and I can only assume that after Hazwan's 2G civic drum swap on his accord proved the spacing is different for the four bolts, as he had to drill 2 new holes to make it mount. So I guess what I'm saying is the removable spindles from the 1st gen lude and 2nd gen civic have different bolt spacing. Seeing how the 2g lude setup will bolt right up to the 2g accord, I can only assume 2g civics have the same spacing!

As for the XXR pictures......Lets just say that I've been collecting the 8 JDM parts books for 3 years now for the 1G lude and finally came across it earlier this year from a bookstore in Japan. It was like literally owning the bible when I got it. It's reference overload for me, not sure if that makes me a Honda wacko or not! lol

[Hazwan]

Awesomeness (Y)

Keep us updated!

[2ndGenGuy]

Total awesomeness! That explains that guy who welded an Integra spindle onto the 2g Civic. I couldn't figure out what was going on in his pics... here:

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3061153&page=2

[79cord]

The idea of welding those spindles on was surprising since the spindles on the 2gCivic/1gPrelude bolt-on just like those of later Civic & Integra, even though most '90's Civic forums seem to suggest replacing the whole rear arm; those mounting bolts must be ridiculously tight & hard to undo - He did say he cut them off!. Shame the bolt pattern sounds like it is so far off from making it easy.
I had wondered if replacing the axle spindles like that might not be a better idea for the 1g Prelude if the bolt pattern matched, since it would take the more readily available later hubs/bearings/disc rotors. But having to machine them to fit together properly & not just bolt them would be a pain.
http://www.cruspeed.com/images/cvcc_rearbrakes2.jpg
Poached the picture for the lazy...
Wonder if that interface was any different for 1gIntegra/CRX with rear discs.. but they also mounted their calipers MUCH higher up since they only had the simple torsion beam rear suspension so I guess they'd be inappropriate any way.
We're lucky the 2gAccord/Prelude spindles/bearings and bolt pattern were carried over from the Accord.
I have bought another set of 2g rear discs to try on my Prelude one day... but it needs other attention more now (that it isn't getting either). Having to bolt right through the caliper bracket and spindle mounting to the rear strut bottom sound a little off-putting.

[EM1 ADCT]

Total awesomeness! That explains that guy who welded an Integra spindle onto the 2g Civic. I couldn't figure out what was going on in his pics... here:

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3061153&page=2

I've read that thread before too wondering the same thing until I found out us lude owners have a similar setup. It's all extremely interesting to note!

[klubvintage]

Wow, my head is spinning after reading this entire thread and cross-referrencing each link etc...but awesome job on the frontier here!

Did the comprehensive writeup get released yet ;-)

So what ive gathered is that to convert to 4x100 the front of my 1980 lx HB while maintaining the stock axle shafts..

i need 2g civic hubs and 4g civic calipers and rotors, and countersunk allen bolts on the carrier retainer

And the rears i can use the drums and backing plates off a 2g civic and will only need to redrill 2 mounting holes on the backing plate

...sound right??

[79cord]

Yes that sounds right according to what we know so far, though a question mark may still remain for the 'square-ended' 1980 drive-shafts. They retained the old spline pattern but were not tapered afterward which might foul with Civic hubs if they were designed for tapered shafts like the ones I have seen. They might fit together though & there might be 'squared' Civic shafts/hubs out there? Or the small seal that fits in the hub-carrier between the two may be the deciding factor?
Incompatability may also only be one way, ie tapered shafts into squared hubs or vice-versa.
I have seen '80? Accords that had one of each driveshaft type fitted while other '80 Accord owners have said they couldn't fit pre'80? tapered driveshafts to their cars with the original Accord 'squared' hubs.

Edit:
Just remembered something that may explain or compound that conundrum further... my '81 Prelude (large spline pattern & normally squared driveshafts), had apparently been fitted with an aftermarket d-shaft with tapered ends. Though when dis-assembled to replace rubber CV joint covers I also found their CV joint cage broken.

[Hazwan]

I've learned something, its easier to bring your old CV joint to the parts store/yard and see what hubs fits exactly rather than ordering online and hope that you get the right thing. Knowing Honda and their stupid little changes, what works for 2ndGenGuy, me and 79cord probably won't work for you.

[2ndGenGuy]

Man, I can't believe the driveshafts are different between 80 and 81. I thought everything was identical between the cars. Jebus... Something changes EVERY YEAR.

I guess maybe the other alternative for your 80 is to replace your driveshafts with shafts from an 81, and use the 82-83 Accord hubs and wheel bearings. My 81 shafts bolted right into the 82 hubs without issue. If you buy a "hub repair kit" from some place like Rock Auto, you should get the wheel bearings and hubs together as a kit.

You will want to verify that the wheel bearings in your 80 have the same OD and width as the bearings from the 81/82/83.

[Hazwan]

Man, I can't believe the driveshafts are different between 80 and 81. I thought everything was identical between the cars. Jebus... Something changes EVERY YEAR.

I guess maybe the other alternative for your 80 is to replace your driveshafts with shafts from an 81, and use the 82-83 Accord hubs and wheel bearings. My 81 shafts bolted right into the 82 hubs without issue. If you buy a "hub repair kit" from some place like Rock Auto, you should get the wheel bearings and hubs together as a kit.

You will want to verify that the wheel bearings in your 80 have the same OD and width as the bearings from the 81/82/83.

Oh God 81 axle won't even fit the 82/83 let alone the 84/85 on the MDM models. And nope it didn't fit on the 79 hubs either what the fuck Honda?!

[klubvintage]

Oh wow, it seems like every single year has surprises!!

Hows it coming!!

[LudeBoy1984]

I'm not sure if I'm in the right place. I've got an '84 Prelude 1.8 with 4 wheel disc. I'm trying to find replacement hubs for the front and I'm encountering a lot of trouble. I thought about finding something similar and machining it down, unless someone knows which other year/car fits close. Thanks

[LudeBoy1984]

I finally got a knuckle off an 85 accord. The knucle was different but the hub was the same. Good to see my baby back on the road.