New Scion FRS (Toyota FT86)

[POS carb]

nice concept, I've been thinking about getting one :inout:

[stat1K]

considered the same, but i think after careful consideration i'm going to be picking up an s2000 in december. i love the look and concept of the scion/subaru/toy but ponying up the 26+tax+options seems a bit much to me. for the same amount the mustang v6 is a better performance option and a bit more tested design. i'm in a bit of a pickle myself lol...

[DBMaster]

Still surprised that they launched this car (Subaru BRZ) as a Scion. I think I read that Toyota may ditch the whole brand soon.

[2ndGenGuy]

I love that Toyota is making a car that is not boring again. I wish Honda would do the same. We need some real driver's cars again. There's hardly anything out on the market that I would actually consider buying brand new. Even the new Civic Si is kinda lame. I like the engine, but the car that it's in is kinda uninspiring. Everybody is so obsessed with navigation, blind spot detection, and built in ball massagers, nobody wants to actually drive anymore.

[Vanilla Sky]

I hate how people compare this car to a V6 Mustang or Genesis. They're completely different cars in completely different classes with completely different design goals.

Oh, try to find a V6 Mustang that's optioned low with the performance suspension pack. Chances are you're spending low 30's for that car, and good luck with ordering a low option model. Without the suspension pack, the V6 Mustang is a slow pig only suitable to hair dressers and secretaries.

Now, the S2000 is a better comparison, but they haven't made one in years. We're comparing apples to apples here, so used is out. Otherwise, I'd say I'm just going to pick up a used C5 Corvette. I can get a Z06 in the same price range as the FR-S, so why don't we include that in the comparison. It will also walk all over a Mustang, including the GT.

Considering this car has very little competition in its segment, I keep wondering why people compare it to cars that are both more expensive and less interesting. The Miata is the closest thing to the Frisbee twins, so why aren't people comparing the Frisbee twins to the Miata?

[2ndGenGuy]

Meh, they're all in the same price range. You might as well consider all your options.

Also, I don't think the V6 Mustang, with a base price that is nearly $3000 cheaper than the FR-S, is going to come out to be more than an FR-S, even with a suspension package. And when the GT's base price is $30,000, I don't see how you're going to end up with a V6 for that much.

[stat1K]

exactly, john understood my point it seems. by performance i meant all of the factors considered, parts availability, tuning, stock hp numbers, and honestly the mustang v6 had the best time around the track in the test i read for sports cars under 30k. there isn't a comparison between the frs and the mustang other than price. the car itself drives (in my opinion) very similar to the porsche boxster s in terms of suspension but a little more docile in the revs. in arizona they are selling several v6 performance package mustangs right at 26,9. the frs isn't so lucky, most are near 30 if you can even find one, seems to be pretty popular.

i'd prefer to spend 15-20 on a used s2k with hard top in my area than literally all of the other options. i know the f motor and all of the honda design employed so fixing/modifying would be simple for me, learning a toyota or ford doesn't seem like a good fit. also my friends over at built by notorious have all of the connections for the s2k parts so its seeming that i'll stick to that plan.

the frs is no doubt a wonderful car and will be a good contender when they become a bit cheaper (ie similar to the s2k). i can't wait to see some modified, they are already a great drivers car.

[gtoman]

One of the writers for Grassroots Motorsports did an article on the FR-S and asked one of the engineers from Toyota if a factory turbo version would be or is in the works. The engineer said "not yet". He didn't so no so I'm hearing maybe. Still I haven't yet and don't plan on buying a new car..Let someone else take the depreciation and then I can buy it lightly used for a much better price. In 2005 my pontiac gto had a window sticker of just about 35k. After a couple years and only 42,000 miles I only paid 18k. Save yourself the cash, buy used.

btw, IMO the S2000 is one of the best driving cars you can get for the money right now. Also my good friend has a C5 Z06 and I have driven it through the mountains and around the city. It is not an ez car to live with. Hard ride, loud at highway speeds, it's too low for ANY speed bumps or slight dips in the road. Don't get me started on build quality..The windows actually bow inward at about 120mph and let air in..Doesn't fill me with confidence. It really belongs on the track, there it's great. I've driven it probably about 1k miles total.

Adam

[POS carb]

from what I've heard it's a 2.0 Subaru boxer motor, so I think an STI 2.5 turbo should be easy to do or released in the future. Hell someone might figure out how to put a subaru AWD drivetrain in it

[stat1K]

it was a joint venture between subaru and toyota to use the suby boxer motor, i don't think many people would purchase the scion to put the STI motor in, they'd probably buy the BRZ and do that, but because of the design i don't think awd would really benefit the car although it does appear that there are some rumors of awd and turbo brz's in the works.

[Vanilla Sky]

The differential needs to sit where the front two cylinders are, so I'm not so sure about AWD. Since it's Fuji Heavy we're talking about, there's more than likely going to be a turbo version of this car, even if it's a dealer option package.

I brought up the Z06 because it represents a great performance value, not because it has great build quality. If the Z06 were built well, it would have held its value better.

[RobT5580]

I looked at the Subaru version and it seems high in price for such a small package but it is a cool concept and seems to be selling well. I think it would be pretty fast if they used the 2.5 turbo considering its RWD and i would imagine a bit lighter than my Legacy GT was.

[Vanilla Sky]

They're priced right around where the AE86 Corolla GTS was, accounting for inflation. They're priced around where Miatas were when they were released, accounting for inflation, and are currently of similar price when similarly equipped.

I can see these things selling fast to the same kind of people that would buy foreign cars back in the 60s and 70s. Young guys with disposable income and without the need for more than a single passenger seat and older guys that want to recapture their youth.

Not a fan boy, but it's the car I'd buy if someone forced me to buy a brand new car right now.

[2ndGenGuy]

Alternatively, you can buy a nice, used, garaged, low miles (<30,000), owned by some old guy who never took it over 5,000RPM, Lotus Elise for $25,000. :)

[Vanilla Sky]

And now we're back to the used cars VS. new cars argument.

[2ndGenGuy]

Pssh. With all the old guys that own Elises and never drive them except on the weekends, they're as good as brand new, IMO. :)

[Vanilla Sky]

While that's true, you're not going to be considering the used Lotus if what you want is a new car. I won't spend that much on a used enthusiast car. Even one just driven on weekends could have been someone's autocross toy.

[2drSE-i]

All this BS talk, and not a single damn picture. You guys are worthless.


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/06/05/automobiles/wheels-scionfrs2/wheels-scionfrs2-blog480.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTYhR-jFifUltLFy7-RyZwkMntiJ5MLctMBE0fmiTWV7FWDcW9E
http://www.roadandtrack.com/var/ezflow_site/storage_RT_NEW/storage/images/make/scion/flippers/2013-scion-fr-s/2709942-5-eng-US/2013-scion-fr-s.jpg
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4742&stc=1&d=1329403372
Seriously, how much bigger are the rear wheels?

[Tdurr]

Doesnt matter, they are not gonna be turboed in the us. Or drop tops. Lets hope the brz is gonna have boost

[stat1K]

lol you said drop tops like it was something cool and not for girls

[Vanilla Sky]

While I haven't driven one of these yet, I don't really think they need boost. I think they are more of a momentum car, not a power car. Power can throw off the balance of a car.

[stat1K]

^ definitely true, very similar in my eyes to a miata, s2k, and porsche boxster

[Vanilla Sky]

When you think of it like a hard top S2000, it comes into perspective a bit. Except an S2000 would be $10,000 more.

[Hauntd ca3]

i actually fail to see what the big fuss is about?
the ae86 was ok, but nothing to write home about.
the best part was the motor, and even that wasnt very special.
lets just say , it was the japanese attempt at the lotus cortina, or bda escort, or vauxhall chevette hsr etc, just way to late, and in typical toyota style, had no flare,soul or character to speak of.
its just toyota trying to revive a rep they had 20 years ago.

[Vanilla Sky]

I'd say that the AE86 Corolla chassis was actually a good chassis. I don't think it deserves the cult following it has, but it really is a very solid motorsports chassis. I think the FRS/BRZ/FT86 is a good remake of the old one, albeit with the wrong engine in there. It's priced right where the AE86 would sell right now, if accounting for inflation.

I'm a fan of the car, but I'm not really a fan boy. I just see it as a very unique car with very little direct competition in the marketplace. Its only real competitor is the Miata. The Genesis and V6 Mustang share a class, but they aren't in the same class as the Miata and FRS. There are cars in the same class on the secondhand market, such as the RX8, S2000, Solstice/Sky, and of course the Miata.

[charliekuney]

^ definitely true, very similar in my eyes to a miata, s2k, and porsche boxster

This.

[Hauntd ca3]

I'd say that the AE86 Corolla chassis was actually a good chassis. I don't think it deserves the cult following it has, but it really is a very solid motorsports chassis. I think the FRS/BRZ/FT86 is a good remake of the old one, albeit with the wrong engine in there. It's priced right where the AE86 would sell right now, if accounting for inflation.

I'm a fan of the car, but I'm not really a fan boy. I just see it as a very unique car with very little direct competition in the marketplace. Its only real competitor is the Miata. The Genesis and V6 Mustang share a class, but they aren't in the same class as the Miata and FRS. There are cars in the same class on the secondhand market, such as the RX8, S2000, Solstice/Sky, and of course the Miata.

i'd say that the ae86 stood out simply because none of the japanese manufacturers were doing a rear driver with a decent twin cam at the time.
no it dosnt deserve the cult following it has, not at all.
if toyota done an s2k type motor and whacked it in the new ae86, it would be the shiznit, and thats official!
honda need to resurrect the s2k or do the crx as a rwd with the s2k.
the mx5/miata is a hairdressers car. gayer than all hell.
its the liberace of cars, all flair and styling but has a wrist limper than wet bread.

[Vanilla Sky]

I take it that you've never driven one. It's pretty obvious, actually.

[Hauntd ca3]

I take it that you've never driven one. It's pretty obvious, actually.

an mx5? yeah, have driven a few.
i'm an auto electrician by trade and bout 75% towards my mechanics qual when i changed to electrical. so i've driven a few cars

found the original to be under powered and understeery. if mazda stuck the bfmr familia manifolds on it from the start, it might be a different story.
the later 1.8 was not much different and the 1.8 turbo just made them worse.

as for the ae86, a good friend has one with a formula atlantic 4age motor,quaife gearset and trd diff......
that goes alright, but that cost him $40 k
i'd take the ae86 over the mx5 myself.

i never bought in to the mx5 bs, just found them boring and slow.

[Vanilla Sky]

From what I understand, that's the engine that Bunta installed in Takumi's AE86 in Initial D, the FA 4AGE motor.

I still contend that you've never really driven one. If you've driven one, you wouldn't consider it a hairdresser's car. There's a reason a Miata is often the fastest car at an autocross. It's the same reason you see so many 240's at drift competitions here in the US. They're very good at it, and they aren't very expensive. Even on a "real" race track, it's not uncommon for drivers in Miatas to chase down far more powerful cars.

[89HatchbackLxi]

I saw an FRS near Universal City Walk yesterday. First one of them I had seen. Looks kinda cool, but I've never been a fan of scion, so once I saw it was a scion I kinda lost interest in it. But that's probably just because I can't stand those stupid box cars they came out with years ago. This car has a decent look to it at least, compared to previous scions. However, in my opionon something on the rear quarterpanel area looks kinda off.

[jesus_charger]

there popping up every where in the city i reside in along with those stupid Tc's !.. iv yet to see a brz though kinda wanna compare face to face

[Hauntd ca3]

From what I understand, that's the engine that Bunta installed in Takumi's AE86 in Initial D, the FA 4AGE motor.

I still contend that you've never really driven one. If you've driven one, you wouldn't consider it a hairdresser's car. There's a reason a Miata is often the fastest car at an autocross. It's the same reason you see so many 240's at drift competitions here in the US. They're very good at it, and they aren't very expensive. Even on a "real" race track, it's not uncommon for drivers in Miatas to chase down far more powerful cars.

think what you want to think, i just dont think the mx5/miata is that great of a car.
me and my friend with the ae86 both use to motorkhana our mark1 minis, against guys with miatas,ae86's, ae92, datsun 1600sss etc. its was only on the sections with relatively high speeds where any of them would beat our 850cc minis.
when you grow up around british sports cars, ie, e type jags, mg A twin cams and Bgt,s , lotus 7s and 11s, or just small english sports cars in general, a miata just isnt that fantastic when its just a japanese version of something you'd been around for most of your life. the electrics where just better in the mazda is all.

and i dont really like the idea of the ft86, rehashes of old cars usually suck balls. new mustang,charger/challenger,camaro etc are perfect examples of how not to do it

[stat1K]

just because something is common place doesn't make it any less of a good car?

[2ndGenGuy]

and i dont really like the idea of the ft86, rehashes of old cars usually suck balls. new mustang,charger/challenger,camaro etc are perfect examples of how not to do it

I'm not sure I get what's wrong with the Mustang and Camaro? They're fast around a track and in a straight line. And the engines are highly efficient for cars that make 350+ horsepower.

[Vanilla Sky]

Another point for the Miata is its large size in comparison to British roadsters, such as the Lotus Elan that was the inspiration for the NA Miata, is its relative large size. I am 6' even, 240 pounds, and I fit in a Miata quite well. I'd have to modify the seating position and likely change out the seat in something like a Spitfire.

One totally off-topic car that I don't think gets enough attention in performance circles is the lowly locost. Quite simple a slightly larger Lotus 7 clone that you can purchase as a kit, as individual parts, and as turn key cars. I've seen them built out of scrap metal tubing. That's what I want to do with a Miata. Miatas have an excellent chassis, and its light. I'd personally center mine around a Miata rollerskate.

I don't think these rehashes have all been bad. The thing is that they sell. They sell tons of them. The vast majority of cars I see around here are Chevy Camaros, Ford Mustangs, Jeep Wranglers, and all of the big pickup trucks. All of these vehicles have been made for a long time. They all sell like hot cakes.

[kentwat]

I've been looking for something new and have always liked the Mazda 3 5 door. I was getting ready to get a new 3 with a manual and a Speed3 popped up local. I went to look at it and couldn't resist.

http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt273/kwat2008/fullspeed3.jpg

I'll tell ya this as for performance mods it aint cheap. The main drawback I've found is they have the computer squashing performance in the first 3 gears down low. I can get a tuner to fix it but that is $600. The list goes on and on with mods after that. It is just crazy. I kick myself for not going home and thinking it over. But it is fun in traffic and will get up and go when I mash the go pedal. I like the Toyota in the pictures it looks alot like older Supra's.

[stat1K]

I'm not sure I get what's wrong with the Mustang and Camaro? They're fast around a track and in a straight line. And the engines are highly efficient for cars that make 350+ horsepower.

while i'm not a fan of the camaro (sitting in one feels like you're in a tank) i do like the mustang. I know the original rehashing of both of these or at least the updates through the years have not been all great but what car company hasn't biffed a few models? (cross tour anyone?).

[2oodoor]

while i'm not a fan of the camaro (sitting in one feels like you're in a tank) i do like the mustang. I know the original rehashing of both of these or at least the updates through the years have not been all great but what car company hasn't biffed a few models? (cross tour anyone?).

true


I love the Mustang format but the Challenger fits me a whole lot better! Cobra seating is just a little narrow in the hip. :chainsaw:

[Vanilla Sky]

Kentwat, a new MS3 is cheaper than the highest trim Mazda3, and it has more options and more power. I never understood how that worked, but it happens. I actually got into an argument with a salesman at a dealership over that.

Do try to find a Cobb Accessport. Sure, a new one is $600, but it's the best $600 you'll spend on a single part for that car.

[Hauntd ca3]

Another point for the Miata is its large size in comparison to British roadsters, such as the Lotus Elan that was the inspiration for the NA Miata, is its relative large size. I am 6' even, 240 pounds, and I fit in a Miata quite well. I'd have to modify the seating position and likely change out the seat in something like a Spitfire.

One totally off-topic car that I don't think gets enough attention in performance circles is the lowly locost. Quite simple a slightly larger Lotus 7 clone that you can purchase as a kit, as individual parts, and as turn key cars. I've seen them built out of scrap metal tubing. That's what I want to do with a Miata. Miatas have an excellent chassis, and its light. I'd personally center mine around a Miata rollerskate.

I don't think these rehashes have all been bad. The thing is that they sell. They sell tons of them. The vast majority of cars I see around here are Chevy Camaros, Ford Mustangs, Jeep Wranglers, and all of the big pickup trucks. All of these vehicles have been made for a long time. They all sell like hot cakes.

I'm not saying he mx5 is small at all. i'm 6,5 and 200lbs and i do find them quite comfy to drive. you might be surprised to find how the british sports cars fit. i could fit quite easily in to my 1967 mini and with a bit of fiddling around can get into an early elan. the elan wasnt what i'd want to drive for to long, but were fun none the less.

the lotus seven style of car is quite popular here, with a local company doing them ckd or turn key to your spec. they once built one with a 20b rotor for a japanese customer.
they can usually be optioned with an extended cockpit for people like me
at nigh on 2 meters tall.
they do tend to be a bit expensive tho.
round the 40k for a turn key speced out version.

as for the factory rehashes, by that i mean the return to the old 60's lookalike. i know they never really stopped making them, but a 4cylinder turbo mustang? i mean, wtf were they thinking!
the company i work for , we do electrical work for a car importer that brings in cars from the states before they go for inspection.
the old camaros etc are built better than the new ones for starters.
the new cars trim is cheap and really quite nasty compaired to even a realitvely budget japanese or european shopping trolley.
they may handle ok, but put new susp and tyre tech in to the old version, and they handle pretty bloody well to. not to mention they sound better,look better , they are built better.
the us motor co's have been going downhill in every respect since the late 60's, apart from safety bits and emissions, but i dont give a shit bout emissions and airbags.

i know the rehashes of the classics are trying to reclaim some of the past glory etc, but they as well do it right.
fuck safety and emissions, most of us petrol heads couldnt care less bout them, give us what we want, not what the designers think we want .
the ford gt for example, give me a break.
if you want a gt40, buy a replica.
a real hairy chested, big block, gurney bubbled ,60's beast and not this gay, sanitised chunk of midlife crisis.
there is a guy here in town that builds them so accurately, that when he couldnt get the right carbs when he wanted them,he started to make them from scratch.

[kentwat]

Ya Vanilla that is going to be my first purchase. I need to donate to 3geez for all of the help and knowledge that I've received from here. I've been searching Mazda forums and you can't hardly even ask a question without getting flamed. It is just crazy how being behind a keyboard and monitor can create a UFC champ with Einsteins IQ in 10 seconds flat. Enough of the rant. Back to new car reviews.

[Vanilla Sky]

Head over to http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum if you want a good general automotive site. The collective knowledge there is staggering.

[Vanilla Sky]

Everything GM I've worked on that was made between the mid 70's and the mid 2000's had the absolutely worst build quality of anything I've worked with. Their stuff has been getting better, not worse. It's still not as nice to work on as some cars, but they're tolerable. I know my Astra is simple to work on.

I have also driven my fair share of British and German cars. I've never been terribly comfortable in any of them to be honest. The only ones that come close have had new seats and seat mounts installed. Miatas need a seat mod to be comfortable, but it's a mod, not a replacement.

I did get to drive a BRZ briefly earlier tonight. I didn't get to abuse it, but it felt alright. It felt fairly pedestrian around town to be honest. I'll reserve judgement until I get to drive one harder.