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bobafett
10-20-2002, 02:51 PM
ok. i have decided to take the plunge.

however, i do have a few ground rules:

1. must be cheap, this is a very budget oriented project
2. must be reliable. making good power means nothing to me if i cannot drive the car :)


aside from that pretty much anything goes...

i will prolly be bugging you guys a LOT for info, but i need to have all my plans done before i start buying anything.

the loose plan right now is to build up a VERY low boost turbo set on the accord. i am talking 3-5psi.... because of this i should save a lot of money on "building" the engine and buying FMICs and shit...

what i would like to start planning now, are the mods i can do to my car while it is NA, that will help prepare me for a turbo project.

keeping in mind that all i care about is reliability. my first thought was to get guages going. if i have a a/f guage, and a boost gauge (measuring vaccum at the time being) it will give me good info when turbocharged.

also i thought that fixxing up my intake manifold (swapping to a 88-89, and doing the P&P job) would be smart.

also i was wondering if i would need a better fuel system with such a low boost application. bigger fuel pump, injectors? what would i need.

the main things i am concerned about taking care of first, are the preventitive mods... to keep the car safer, and have me not worry about it blowing up constantly.

PLEASE< i need a lot of help, and i know this wont be an overnight project, but hopefully i can finish in within 1 year, and give hope to everyone else on here about a small little turbo setup that adds maybe 25-55 HP.... :) that would ideally be extremely buildable, but this is a safe starting point i would hope!

thoughts please?

quagmire
10-20-2002, 09:38 PM
I dunno if you'll want to do this, but I like the Exhaust Gas Temp guage (pyrometer) better than the AF ratio gauge. Probably because I'm an anal retentive engineering student and like to have numbers attached to everything, plus the AF guage seems like sometimes it just bounces around and doesn't seem to do much more than look cool. Just my $.02.
A good porting job will benfit you now and after the turbo is operational. I'm not sure a swap to the 88-89 intake would help you very much, but porting yours probably would. As far as reliability, all i can say is fuel mangement. Someone more familiar with the 3g's fuel system will have to elaborate, but that area is key. Going lean is a sure-fire way of blowing your motor. Then again, thats what the pyrometer or AF meter is there for.



Once you finish the project, you can make some $$ back by selling that DC header.

bobafett
10-21-2002, 09:48 AM
hehehe... yeah thats what i figured!!! lol...

well i am all for gauges, i love them... so the more i have (that ARE useful) the better. :)

my grandfather turbo's all of his trucks, and he's got a pyrometer instead of an A/F guage... his lil isuzu truck is still going too!!! after like 20yrs!!!

when you say fuel management, what are you talking about (in general terms, not nesicarily 3geez terms). is this like a haltech, or a afc controller?

the more gadgets and gauges i need the better, except that they will get spendy.

and is there no way to salvage my dc sports headers for the turbo...??? lol... jk. :)

quagmire
10-21-2002, 11:41 AM
I dont have a lot of knowledge about this, but I imagine some sort of AFC, with maybe ignition control too. Dont know of any specific brand or anything, havent really researched it. Anyone else have any ideas?

By the way, I'm thinking about doing this myself. When I go back home this weekend, I'll look at what my friend has in his garage and then look at his turbo civic and see what I'll need exactly for my car.

mugenprelude86
10-21-2002, 07:22 PM
hey man i might want that DC headder off you after... it should fit my 2.0 si 86 lude right??? sorry i am on the accord site but hey you guys have WICKED info on our engines!

bobafett
10-21-2002, 09:52 PM
hehe.... everyone will want the header when i am done... realistically it will be a while, and i am not gonna get rid of the header until i KNOW the car will be turboed long term! lol...

gr3k0sLaV
10-22-2002, 07:02 AM
Ok from what i've managed to learn about turbo'ing the honda, cheaply.

Firstly i'd recommend visitng www.homemadeturbo.com

go here-
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/faq.html


Secondly, firstly, you want to keep your motor mainly stock. I'd recommend though upgraded and replacing gaskets, strongner/newer gaskets.

Port and polish of the head and all that.

Secondly, deciding on the turbo you want, if you want to run high boost/low boost. In your case low boost, prolly want a fast spooling turbo, something small. Forget the particular type, something small like TD04 or maybe a T25.

Next cost is the Turbo manifold, now the most practical route to go would be getting a custom manifold made which can be expensive, in australian dollars around $600 or so, in US dollars about $600-800, speak to Justin. Unless your good with welding, another option i've looked at is adapted the factory manifold which could be done, take a bit of engineering, it would be cheaper than getting a custom manifold made though. I've taken a rough look, mentally sketched it. So yer can't see why not.

Then there's piping the turbo, oil return, cooling, that's pretty basic.

NEXT though engine management, now depends on how much boost you want to run though. Low low boost 5psi or so, the stock injectors, FPR, should be able to handle it, but from my studying an intercooler would be recommended. I'd say upgrade the Fuel Injectors and install a rising rate FPR. The stock fuel pump can handle all that. Ignition timing should be retarded a bit, however it would be better to install an afttermarket ignion, MSD 6Al or something, put colder spark plug and I think decrease the gaps.

NExt in regard to engine managment, from my studies you have to trick the Honda MAP sensor that there is no boost, no correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the MAP sensor get an air pressure reading or soemthing by measuring intake manifold vacuum or something. Now here the use of trick valves or something would be used to let out air, or let in air, to trick the MAP sensors there is no boost, which would cause the ECU to do funny things.

Next if you an Auto or Manual transmission, Manual people (which im not) would have an easier time, Auto people, well I think a Torque converter with a high stall speed would be a must or else turbo lag would be a major issue.

Gauges Oil pressure, AF, Boost gauge, a must. A boost gauge so you know how the hell high your boost is, and you dont overboost and well BOOOOM!.

ANyone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, and add. Because I want to know too.

gr3k0sLaV
10-22-2002, 07:51 AM
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/CheckValve.html <== solution to the MAP sensor problem

MoonScryer
10-22-2002, 01:58 PM
Couple things to think about: If you are going low boost, you won't need heavy engine management. a Rising rate FPR, good fuel pump, etc. For the ignition, consider a MSD BTM system, it retards timing at boost. Other than that, i think a turbo timer would be a good idea, if you run the car hard. JC whitney has the old style but still just fine Greddy unit for $100.

As to the manifold and piping, yes, it can cost $600-800 for the manifold. How does $350 sound though? http://www.jgstools.com/turbo/custthdr.html

Someone brought that up before. No, it's not an equal length unit, or something specialized, but a log style should be fine for the low boost you are wanting to do.

Also, you go higher that 7psi? You will blow your ring landings. Save for forged pistons.

bobafett
10-22-2002, 03:40 PM
now were getting somewhere! thanks for the posts, this is what i want.

as far as the manifold, 87hybrid is gonna help me out, and he can weld like a mofo! hopefully it wont be too expensive doing it this way.

as far as the turbo, i was thinking of snagging a t25 off of someones old dsm. also the 1g BOV's are supposed to be pretty good. :) what other turbo parts can i scrounge from a DSM?

i WAS thinking of adding a subie style intercooler cooled thru a hood scoop. placing the intercooler back by the old air box. i am sure there are some flaws with this logic, but i bet something could be planned!

my "goal" is 15.00 ET... i have no idea what it will take to get there, but i am talking about running practically as little boost as possible. basically just get my car on a turbo platform, so that i can slowly build up the motor and engine managment stuff while gradually increasing boost as it is SAFE. emphasis on SAFE!

moonscryer, were you saying that i could get away with stock everything (engine wise) as long as i bought an msd and better coil? i was a little unclear... :)

what is the lowest ammount of boost you CAN run with a lil t25? also i have a 5speed, so i torque converter will not be necesary.

how much HP would i gain from the "safe" level of boost, and what would that safe level be? i have <5psi in my head right now, but i need to know if this is realistic. i want to get away with little to no heavy duty engine management stuff, at least right now, even if it means only 1-2psi...

ok now a rice question. will the beloved BOV sound be just as loud with 1psi as it would with 25psi? lol, sorry to ask such a bad question, i just want to know if i can look forward to hearing my favorite sound, even on such a low boost application. :)

gr3k0sLaV
10-22-2002, 07:11 PM
aim for 5psi, you can get away with that still.

Also as I said, check out the link for the little device that tricks the MAP sensor which saves the use of trick valves, etc,etc,etc.

Also moonscryer, if the MAP sensor is tricked that there is no increased boost, then how would the ECU know to increase the amount of fuel running to the engine? or is that handled by the O2 sensor?

Or is it just in adjusting the FPR?

gr3k0sLaV
10-22-2002, 07:14 PM
Just a question, how does the MSD BTM system retard timing at boost?

Isn't timing controlled by the ecu which controls the vaccuum?

Neuspeed87lx
10-22-2002, 07:14 PM
juuuustin

gr3k0sLaV
10-22-2002, 07:20 PM
also, these might be of interest to some of you -

http://www.vpwmailorder.com/asp/product_page.asp?sub_cat_id=1454

Prices are in australian dollars though,

also with the Turbo Timer, I can get a kit for about $25 AU and build it myself.
Also with the intercooler, your best off putting it in your front bumper, it'd take a bit of custom work, cutting and shit but it'd prolly be a better idea.

www.homemadeturbo.com look around, there is mention of an AUDI intercooler been used I read, hmmm I think the 94 Toyota MR2 Turbo's have really small intercoolers, I think. My cousin has one, and im certain there was a small intercooler in there.

Wouldnt be smart to mount it behind the air filter, I think due to engine heat unless you can engineer some kind of good hood scoop for it, or you can mount it right above the engine itself, like on skyline engines and others, prolly be easier.

gr3k0sLaV
10-22-2002, 07:59 PM
http://ludespeed.com/products/prelude/articles/install2/install2.html <=== very very informative.

bobafett
10-22-2002, 10:43 PM
thanks for all these links man... yeah i am thinking that if i DO end up with an intercooler FMIC is the way to go... though it might be nicer if i had a kit front with a wide open spot for an intercooler to show thru. then again, i think just proves that you dont NEEEED to.

ok, lets set a tenative goal of 5 psi. first off, what will i need to make sure its PERFECTLY safe. will i need the adjustable FPR and bigger injectors and MSD ignition? i assume the prices on these arent toooooo rediculous!

gr3k0sLaV
10-22-2002, 11:05 PM
yer, 5psi is a good idea, i'd push it to 6 when you got it all tuned and readied.

As for all that stuff, i'd say a few hundred at the very least.

gr3k0sLaV
10-22-2002, 11:09 PM
FPR, best i hear is Vortech Rising Rate, i think they are like $150 or something US, I think.

I'd say speak to Justin turbo accord about getting his fuel rail with that stuff that'd be a better idea.

I'm going to start seriously considering a project like this but not for a while, i'd need to do a shitload of research, but if all goes to plan I might buy a 2nd car, a 91 Nissan Silvia and use my accord as my project car...

bobafett
10-23-2002, 03:53 PM
heh... good luck with the silvia, that would be awesome!

yeah i am gonna research the hell out of this before i buy anything... but i am 75% sure i will follow thru with the project, unless any unforseen financial issues pop up!

Sean
10-23-2002, 04:52 PM
well i have a engine management system that will work but youll need to invest in some equipment. or maybe by the time your ready i will have some proggys worked out for all the various combos

jteuton
10-23-2002, 05:04 PM
Hey your in my boat. Maybe we can help each other here cause we have similiar ideas. A little boost and a bit more power without breaking the bank. What I've gathered so far. I was told by Turbonetics that the T-25 was way too small and they would go with the T-3. However that is just one of the sales reps opinion. I also think we should run an inline fuel pump besides the stocker to give more reliablility. You need an adjustable FPR in addition to the FMU 12:1. The FMU is plumbed after the FPR. I think stock injectors will be fine unless extremely old and dirty and leaking. The MSD system is a Boost Timin Master. It retards timing as you see more Boost however I don't know if it can be used with your stock ignition or it has to be aftermarket. The BTM is 200 bucks alone......but then if you need an aftermarket ignition amplifier too that is another 200 so I hope it works with the Accel coil and stock ignition. The Manifold looks like the hardest part besides plumbing the oil lines. The stock Manifold *might* work but I don't see an easy way of welding the turbo flange to it to flow good. Has anybody looked at welding the T-25/T-3 flange on the stock manifold? You also will need a custom downpipe unless you are lucky like a bitch and can find one off a civic that curves just right. You will also need 150-200 dollar BOV. Intercooler isn't needed but the power will be hurt badly by the HOT air temps. All the ducting and silicone connectors and clamps will cost even more. Stuff to do before hand that helps is ......tuneup.....new sparkplugs and wires for sure. YOu can go ahead and get the FPR and extra pump and put them on. You could mount the intercooler and shit. I also have a DC sports header and I was looking at a way about modifiying that but it looks impossible. I was also thinking of going supercharger for two hugh benefits. 1. No custom expensive manifold/downpipe replacement 2. No plumbing of oil lines (self contained units). I looked and after removing the a/c there looks like a nice spot to mount to the block and run off a belt. You could really get away without an intercooler cause it won't be so close to the exhaust......then I ran into a problem.....Finding one that will work on a Honda which the gear turns CCW. Vortech makes one but you have to plumb oil to it too. Paxton's are trash cause they use this stupid bearing design over gears like Vortech's do. I seemed I found my answer when I found ATI and Powerdyne. Powerdyne's are driven with a little internal belt that lasts 100k miles and are superquiet and effecient.....however they don't have any application for Hondas so I assume they don't have one that the gears spin ccw. Lemme know your comment on everything I've gathered.

bobafett
10-23-2002, 06:10 PM
well yeah i think we ARE in the same boat more or less. as far as the t25, i am sure its sufficient, espeically for the low levels of boost we are talking about. i know mitsu's run a hell of a lot more than 5psi on them. if we score a DSM turbo for a good price, there is no reason we couldnt snag up some of the pipes and the BOV (1G bovs are pretty good actually). this should considerably reduce costs. as for the BTM needing a seperate ignition system, i sure hope not. from the other stuff i was reading i didnt get that impression, but it sounds like valid logic. thats something we will need to investigate.

funstick, what do you mean exactly when you say i might need to invest in some equipment. also by various options do you just mean some sort of GUI to tune with? if all i need is C++/VB access i have that covered. :) from what you have read in this thread would your "product" work well?

as for an intercooler, i think we could salvage one at a junkyard for next to nothing. if you look at some of the links hat gr3koslav posted it seems pretty hopeful. are you suggesting that if we got an intercooler it would help a lot, even at boost levels under 5psi?

lets keep this discussion going as long as possible, so we have a solid plan before we jump into anything. :)

thanks for your input so far everyone!

gr3k0sLaV
10-23-2002, 07:36 PM
ill make this post brief because I just woke up, im tired and cant bebothered writing much umm programming is usally done in Assembly, low level languages, or it's all done in HEX...can't remember exactly which.


WIth the ignition it would be a full upgrade to the system, MSD control unit, perhaps MSD coil although im certain that the ACCEL will work fine.

Sean
10-23-2002, 08:15 PM
this is working in hex with a hex editor that translates hex values into real world values. i have some stuff i touched up that i can send out with any hardwrae you may want. the beauty of it is the datalogging ability the GM diagnosing capabilitys. you would need an eprom programmer at the least and a good cheap laptop for scanning. i plan to have a programmed plug in efi option soon. its still gonna be december before it meets OEM styel driveabiltiy however. plus i have to locate the various parts cheap not an easy thing to do.so give me some time and i will have it all worked out soon enough.my end goal is still factory emisiosns compliance and factory driveability. it may not be exactly emisions legal but it will sniff clean.

bobafett
10-23-2002, 10:11 PM
hehe where i live there is no such thing as emmisions control! :)

i am not in a huge rush obviously, but i am still interested. if i were to use your chip, and want to tune it. would i need an EPROM programmer, AND a laptop? also would tuning be cryptic at this point. or would it be thru a cool interface?

sounds like this could be a good thing though!

bobafett
10-23-2002, 10:22 PM
which parts from this thread could be helpful in my turbo project. either by increasing performance, or by being a part i could modify sooner, thereby decreasing downtime?

http://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?postid=63701

i dunno if the higher compression pistons are smart, since turbo apps, ussually want lower comp ratios. i figured the cam would be good. the heads/ the intake manifold/ the oil pan. if there is anything else there that would be smart to buy, let me know please!

Sean
10-23-2002, 11:23 PM
i would suggest sticking with stock compresion. as for cam and other stuff no need. the turbo really makes the head flow like gangbusters. i would simply upgrade and beef up whats already there. think

forged pistons ( wiseco doe these for a very decent price)
main bearing studs ( arp has got loose studs not a kit)
head studs ( yet again arp loose studs )
stainless exhuast valve ( manely should be good for these)

as for everything else leave it alone. dont touch the cam it works really well with the turbo. i wouldnt port the head. as for the intake manifold dont sweat it as long if you already have the 86-8style intake. if not switch it out when you chnage the engine managemnet system. i am building all hardware on the 86-87 intakes. they are easier to work with. and are actually better sutied for high rpm apllications. just beef to motor up dont go looking for HP thats what the turbo is for.

jteuton
10-24-2002, 07:11 AM
Ok Funstick.....I want the lowdown on how to make this turbo work while only spending pennies on ecu. I don't want expensive software and all this Haltech BS that costs an arm and a leg. The Two things I'm worried about. 1.) Map sensor......where is it? how can it be fooled during boost......I've heard of easy check valves can you explain what these are and what they do.....I've also heard of little cheater circuit cards that fool it into not seeing boost......what happens if I don't do nothing with it and it does see the boost?....and second the ignition timing. Is the boost timing master by msd the best bet.....and if so can it work standalone or does it have to have one of them 6a, 7a setups and if so which one?....Thanks for the help

gr3k0sLaV
10-24-2002, 09:13 AM
Jteuton as I POSted earlier, there is either the use of trick valves which bleed pressure off the vac line which goes from the manifold to the MAP sensro. Or you can use a trick circuit as i posted a link to earlier.

MSD BTM is what u should use.

jteuton
10-24-2002, 09:21 AM
Ok can the MSD BTM work with my stock ignition system (Accel Coil) and where does this check valve go (where is the map sensor)?

bobafett
10-24-2002, 10:56 AM
thanks for the advice funstick. :)

i just wanted to make sure that that stuff wouldnt be worth having to fix up and put in there..
right now i have the 86 intake manifold (obviously :)) its the single runner, or whatever that means.

i know what you mean about not worrying about HP, just beefing up the engine :) it would be nice just to turn up the boost a little when i want more power. but do you think i will be safe with 3-5psi on stock internals? also with this new turbo endevour i was thinking of going to 2.5-3.0 exhaust, though i would prolly just stick with 2.5.... any opinions on that?

i ALSO have another question about possible future upgrades.
i know i am not going to break any records with a t25, but if i were to upgrade to a bigger/better turbo, would be common dsm turbos bolt right onto the place we made, it will it mean a lot more custom work? i am talking about maybe a 14b, or a 16g.

Sean
10-24-2002, 03:44 PM
hmm using a bigger turbo than what you build the system for is tougher.im working with the chrysler T3 found ont eh k car and what not. it flows plenty of air. it can run down at low boost and the spool up time is quiet quick,you can run upto 8-9psi of boost with stock internals as long as you have the spark and fuel management in place. ill have pics of the finished harness soon enough.and i have a free ware rom editor thatll work fine.

bobafett
10-24-2002, 03:55 PM
so my idea is still fine, even if i go with a t25? your just messing with a differnet turbo?

i want a small and fast turbo mainly... so how expensive of engine management stuff would i need to run like 9 psi? would be talking haltech, or still the msd BTM type setup?

Sean
10-24-2002, 06:51 PM
well if you can hang on for a month i can send you a 1227749 gm ecm setup for considerably less and by then i should have it ready to be a drop in.ill have the calibrations ready. also burning your own proms could always lead to more money down the road as when your doing your own people will ask you to do theres.i am building all of the calibrtations for 15 psi of boost using chrylser 32lb per hr injectors.i could include these for a small fee.

bobafett
10-24-2002, 07:02 PM
ok well if you are tuning this prom for 15psi then will it still work well in my car with significantly less psi?

also would these chrysler injectors work in my car without too much trouble. as for waiting a month, i am in no rush with this project, i am mainly in the research phase right now. i want to have 110% of the details worked out before i start buying things.

and if i bought this unit from u, would it work with my t25 setup running low boost. also would it be "tunable" or would it be your set vaules.

also can i run any sort of engine management software with a pda, or do i need a whole laptop setup?

Sean
10-24-2002, 07:51 PM
well this particular ecm uses EPROMS and there is software out there that can edit the data stored on it. IE fuel tables spark tables etc etc etc. my plan is to have the whole caliration dialed for the accord. i cannot forsee any issue with runnign it at lower boost levels at all simply becuase i still have to calibrate it for the lower flow levels.untiit reachs 15psi. the turbo make doesnt matter so much. it still take x amount of air to reach a given level of boost regardless of turbo size. do you follow this one ?? as for scanning if you have no need to programm your own proms and would be happy using a maximum of 15 psi then i should be able to help you with a one time burn.as for scanning and data logging an older laptop that runs win 95 should be fine. i could go ahead and point you to all the info you need to do this yourself. thats if you chose to. its not to hard as long as you have a good grip on how to look at fuel needs and spark timing. either way let me know what you want to do i'll be glad to help you get going.

bobafett
10-24-2002, 09:39 PM
well i am still enclear at how "heavy duty" that i should, will need to, or could go.

you know my current plan, which is super low levels of boost, getting away with a cheap turbo setup, basically just to turbo the car. before i go turbo i need to make ULTRA sure i wont blow anything up. i NEED to get the car around everyday :)

once i have that low boost setup i will start to upgrade internals etc to run more boost. if at any point i ever need more than 15psi, i am sure the money spent would be nothing in comparison to buying another eprom chip from you! hehe...

yeah i understand the X air needs X fuel no matter which turbo, and also that it will need to run properly up until 15psi as well, so that it should work with my lower boost levels too.

from the turbo platform i am starting with, will i need a laptop based fuel management system? or can i get away with just the BTM and better coil?

i would like all the help you are willing to give though, since i am quite new to turbos and most car stuff in general!

when you say scanning, what are you referring to? i somewhat understand datalogging, and i know that can be done with a PDA, could the fuel management run from a PDA as well, or would it need more power?

also would your chip just splice right it? or will i need anything special to use it?

would you mind if we started a list of stuff for me to do "now" and then a list of smart things to do once the car is running turbo'ed? its sort of reduntant since there is already FAQ stuff, but this turbo project is a whole different ball game.

i guess all i am sure about it:
1.turbo
2.bov
3.MSD BTM
4.blaster or accel coil
5.tap oil feed and return lines into oil pan.
6.custom exhaust manifold
7.all the guages (volt/AF/pyro/boost/oilPSI)
8.turbo timer
9.boost controller

Sean
10-24-2002, 10:24 PM
ooh im working on an entire GM based replacemnt system. it uses a gm turbo sunbird ecm also found in the syclone, typhoon. its already programmed for boost. there is no reporgramming or tunning form a laptop. the laptop would allow you to see the data show you how and where to make changes to it as well as what may be wrong with the ecm or wiring or sensors. as for calibrating the system you should never need to as long as you stay below 15psi. right now i am trying to find source for a few things. so when i get that worked out ill let you know. i can turn things up in quanties of 1-2 which is about all anyone here would ever need.

should the need ever arise for you to tune the systems alter fuel maps or what ever you will need a eprom programmer to make further changes on your own.i would suggest you get the hardwrae form me with a good solid base tune for 15 psi. then get tunnign tools and keep going on your own. as i siad before i have some very nice rom editing software that prettystriaght forward and easy to use. also the gm ecm has a built in fuel correction routine that makes tunngin pretty easy. well get into that later.

bobafett
10-24-2002, 10:26 PM
ok so if i get this chip, will i NOT need the BTM and other engine management stuff?

and what price range are we talking here?

AccordEpicenter
12-13-2002, 11:33 PM
can you get away with running the stock ecu when you run like 15 psi if you get huge injectors and an adjustable fuel press regulator and fuel rail with ignition upgrades and retard ignition, assuming the rest of the engine is built up good?

Sean
12-14-2002, 12:41 PM
no the stock distributor wont retard timing. by the time you bought all the shit to manage the boost i could have saved you a fourtune.

AccordEpicenter
12-15-2002, 02:12 PM
well yea but to run boost you have to retard it anyways, why not retard the entire distributor a few degrees to dial in what you need? Sounds a hella lot easier than modding the honda distributor with gm guts imo... What do u think. I mean couldnt you just dial in what you need with the stock stuff, like retarding the current distributor and getting monster injectors and stuff?

Sean
12-15-2002, 03:53 PM
ask justin 88turboaccord how well that setupo runs.

PhydeauX
12-15-2002, 06:06 PM
Besides, you don't want the timing retarded when the motor is not under boost. (90% of the time its running if you daily drive it).

andy

AccordEpicenter
12-17-2002, 10:37 PM
well i dunno, i was thinking about a turbo with a ton of boost (like 14-15 psi) so when would the motor not be under boost, at idle? Besides its safer on the engine

bobafett
12-17-2002, 11:55 PM
no you wouldnt be at boost at idle.. if you were, your turbo would overheat in a hearbeat... you basically only get boost when you stomp on the gas and and spools while the rpms climb.

form what i understand, when you take your foot off the gas you lose all boost, via the wastegate or blowoff valve, or something along those lines.. this happens so that excess exhuast is not spinning the turbo when it shouldnt be.

*thats just what i would guess. i have never driven a turbo car, andi do not claim to be an expert!

NXRacer
06-12-2003, 02:47 PM
AAARGH. This thread has sooo much info that its all hard to take in. You guys quit posting to the AWESOME thread for some reason. What ever happend to the project turbo? I was thinking about going b20a conversion, but after trying to get one and comming up pretty much empty handed I'm seriously thinking about going turbo. T03 and T04 turbos are a dime a dozen (almost) on ebay and my friend bought one and its in great condition. I have a turbo at home that was off a VW of some sort and i might have it rebuilt to fit my car. I'm not sure what size it is, but its pretty big. Anyway, I WANT MORE INFO. I'm seriously planning on doing this and when i get some money together (should be the first of july) i'm gonna rip my motor out and build the internals to handle a good amount of PSI (up to at least 15 lbs or so). I'm been looking all over this forum and poeple mention things, but nobody seems to have as much information together as this thread. I'm gonna keep researching this and see what i can come up with.

I have a friend who owns a machine shop and he's willing to do a lot of work for me and i want to get my head port and polished, but i dont know the specs on what to do. Is there a basic job that most machine shops do? He said with his machinery, he can do a full 3d mapping of the head and totally rework it to the 1/1000th of an inch. If i do decide to get a turbo, would the b16 intake be a good idea for this project? I could get a full fuel rail and injectors for it and a bigger TB. There are so many options out there i dont know what would be best for hooking up the turbo to.

Thanks for all the great info so far and KEEP THE INFO FLOWIN FOLKS.

Oh yeah, hows the ECU coming along??

BootMachine
08-26-2003, 10:32 PM
Thats it??? Where is the rest of the info? This thread was answering ALL my questions and then it ended!

oh man. Turbo is so close yet so far away! The only piece of the puzzle I need is the Ignition Control (HOW, WITH WHAT?) and fuel control (HOW? WITH WHAT?)

What is an acurate way of measuring the AF mix? Exhaust temp ?

Sean
08-28-2003, 07:35 PM
look into my ecm kit. does both and you can reprogram it yourself. although ive programmed it to 15psi.

bobafett
01-19-2004, 03:01 PM
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=14375

im itchin for a fmic to get my project off the ground....

HondaSi88
01-19-2004, 04:33 PM
buy it and make it fit!

skull1441
01-25-2004, 06:21 PM
i doubt that it will fit if u have a stock bumper

AccordEpicenter
01-25-2004, 10:13 PM
dunno ill tell ya when i get it :) IDK it looks like itd fit but itll be tight... very tight.

RobT5580
01-26-2004, 09:06 AM
It will be tight but i think it can be done mine is about 26x5.5x3. Your going to have to modify the hood latch cross beam either way. But it should be simple if you just make a cross beam.

lightbulblxi
01-26-2004, 09:56 AM
i bet u could make it fit.

bobafett
01-26-2004, 12:13 PM
i have been talking to a few friends of mine with lots of turbo/tuning experience, and theyre saying that a terrible style intercooler... basically its so long and so thin that you will see a significant ammount of pressure drop. a more ideal intercooler would be taller and thicker, also there are two styles of intercoolers: bar and plate (better) and tube and fin (not as good)...

since i have never turboed a car i cant speak from experience, but the people i talked to can...

HondaSi88
01-26-2004, 01:16 PM
the saab front mount IC fits ok! I sized it up and then sent the IC to the shop for repair

RobT5580
01-26-2004, 01:24 PM
Yeah i preffered the taller spearco FMIC similar to what Justin had mine is just a little bigger than what he had. If you go on ebay there is a guy selling them for a nice price and pretty much any size you want. I just measured the opening in my car and tried to find the best fit.

Here is mine:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid59/p335bfbffee0eeb91cbec362d9e82231b/fc5e6a5d.jpg
Its a real spearco core with custom end tanks the guy on ebay is from canada and is listed as NY in the ebay profile. But he always has a bunch up for sale and will find a size if you need a specific size like i did.

Justin86
01-26-2004, 01:31 PM
If make mods to the hood latch or just get rid of it completely, pull the A/C bullshit, and with the 5 speed radiator you should have enough from for a good FMIC with the stock bumper.

RobT5580
01-26-2004, 01:40 PM
It doesnt go that far back it goes in front of the A/C condensor. The hood latch has a support that goes straight down so its simple enought to take some square tubing and make a cross brace. I personally think Justin's setup was the best i have seen yet for the accord and it was clean and simple. I have his setup now which i was going to have all redone in one piece sections but for cost reasons just cleaned his up (ground all the welds down and powdercoated).

preluder
01-13-2005, 11:02 AM
I an currently working on a custom turbo setup on my A series engine, custom built turbo header, (email me for pics) using a mitsu turbo from a 91 dodge shadow.

Elijah
01-13-2005, 11:14 AM
I dunno if you'll want to do this, but I like the Exhaust Gas Temp guage (pyrometer) better than the AF ratio gauge. Probably because I'm an anal retentive engineering student and like to have numbers attached to everything, plus the AF guage seems like sometimes it just bounces around and doesn't seem to do much more than look cool. Just my $.02.
A good porting job will benfit you now and after the turbo is operational. I'm not sure a swap to the 88-89 intake would help you very much, but porting yours probably would. As far as reliability, all i can say is fuel mangement. Someone more familiar with the 3g's fuel system will have to elaborate, but that area is key. Going lean is a sure-fire way of blowing your motor. Then again, thats what the pyrometer or AF meter is there for.



Once you finish the project, you can make some $$ back by selling that DC header.


I couldnt agree more about the a/f i have one and its just light show in my car.

Elijah
01-13-2005, 11:15 AM
Wow I just noticed how old this is are you still doing it?

bobafett
01-13-2005, 11:55 AM
hahah cant believe i started this thread so long ago.

the new plan is to turbo my 12V SOHC 240sx, i decided to keep the accord as a daily driver, since its much more reliable than the nissan. im gonna rebuild the accord with a bit of headwork, new clutch and b16 manifold and call it a day!

the 240 is now the bitch who im dumping all my money into!

classic thread though. there is a lot of info i think

AccordEpicenter
01-13-2005, 12:01 PM
put it together and race me

Low Tek
03-13-2005, 05:50 PM
put it together and race me

I don't think he is racing, he is another drifter now.. lol

man.. I remember this thread.. holy hell, this is sooo old!!

AccordEpicenter
03-13-2005, 05:54 PM
ghey

bobafett
08-23-2005, 07:29 PM
hi there turbo people. got a simple question for those of u who have been there.

stock CR on my accord (86) is around 8.8:1... im gonna probably run a conservative CR of 9.5:1 when i get my aftermarket pistons in for my new motor...

if u dont know about that whole process, i have a thread about it in this same forum. this is a different Q, so im making a new thread for this, since its a totally different discussion.

all i want to know is: is this a good idea to boost the motor with 9.5:1 compression, assuming that i will do something better than a straight up hack for management. im thinking obd0 with turbo edit, or obd1 and uberdata... one of those free honda managment systems. :) from the shit i have picked up on this forum, people think that running super high CR, like 10.5+ is no sweat. but i know that not that many people have done it. the shop who is building my engine knows its gonna be daily driven ,and they are reccomending against much higher than a 9.5:1 with stock management ,which i will undoubtedly have at first.

im just wondering if u think i will blow my motor to smithereens with 9.5:1, even if its tuned. i cant afford to lose the motor, but all i need to boost it is a few odds and ends. i already have most of the shit i need together for the 240 project.

anyway its something i may attempt down the road, cause 9.5:1 SEEEMS pretty consirvative to me, so i have a funny feeling i could get away with boost still. maybe something low, like 10psi with a super60 or something.

does anyone know of a good ball bearing turbo charger that would be a good size for the accord, and doesnt cost $2k lol...

ps for those who are too lazy to read my engine build thread, the new engine consists of the following:

head:
ti valve retainers
8500rpm tested dual wound valve springs
forged valves (stock size :( )
valve grind
head shaved and bowls all ported, basically they are giving the head a good once over, and touching everything to maximize efficiency and flow.
delta 272 cam or larger
3 angle valve grind
b16 AEBS intake manifold
everything portmatched and opened up.
68mm bbk throttle body
aem fuel rail
aem fuel pressure regulator
dc sports header w/full 2.5" exhaust includeing high flow cat

block:
eagle h beam rods with arp bolts
16.5 lbs lightened flywheel
spec stage 3 six-puck clutch (259 ft/lbs)
diamond 9.5:1 forged pistons w/1.2mm rings (good for boost)
arp head studs
bored .040
king tri-metal bearings
high flow oil pump
balanced and blue printed botom end
probably cryo'ed crankshaft and cam and anything else i decide is worthwhile.

the motor is built for 8000 rpm abuse, even though my rev limit will kick in at 6950 :) its just meant to take NA abuse. :) but now that i have a built motor, that will probably only make 160whp, and its built to shit, i figure the smartest thing might be to boost it. at first i will run super low boost just to get the quircks worked out sice i will have to be running the super secret obd1 tuning program, but eventually im sure that block could hold 20psi it i wanted to (which i dont).

what are your opinions, does this spell disaster or not?

MoonScryer
08-23-2005, 07:41 PM
Ditch the cam, and boost it. You got a good build. CR isn't very high at all. Set at about 8psi for a good everyday driver, and you will have lots of good life.

Vanilla Sky
08-23-2005, 07:46 PM
just going to have to keep the thing tuned perfectly. a high CR turbo motor will get you great gains. they are just hard to keep reliable.

i've always wanted to boost a high CR engine myself. low boost with high CR.

mykwikcoupe
08-23-2005, 07:59 PM
im with the other. cr is great for a mild turbo. Cam is ok since its a mid rev cam. Id recommend a dual stage with scramble boost controller. Set stage 1 for street something in the under 12 range with a t3 turbo. Itll give a good powerband with more than enough for the street. set the stage 2 for all out drag fun or something more to your liking. Thge scamble function for a all-out outrageous powerband meaning the best tune you could get and stage fat in the fuel. Thats my plan. Like most will say go with a t3 super 60 or at least a 48/60 60 trim. Full boost no lag by 3-3500. The nice bottom end will help enormously in the daily driven lowend stuff. Nice setup.

bobafett
08-23-2005, 08:10 PM
thanks guys... hopefully its not a bad thing your giving me confidence on this idea. heheh

ill read up on the scramble boost controllers, i know turbo magazine just did a review of them. i am gonna have to do a looooot of research into the management of something like this.

hardware is pretty much under control for the boosting itself ,but i havent put in the time to research which injectors (will probably go with dsm 450's and a walbro 255) and boost controler (either a nice manual, or lookin into the terrifying boost spiking realm of electronic controllers... :))

bobafett
08-23-2005, 08:21 PM
not necessarily. its a pretty cool idea. although the MBC is hardcore, tried and true, and they cost 1/5 the price!

bobafett
08-23-2005, 08:25 PM
I wanna see a good dyno run after it's all put back together.

And after turbo.

=)

im going to dyno the shitty motor before i swap in the good one ,and im going to dyno the NA built motor afterwards, and IF i boost that motor, it will be tuned on a dyno ,so i will have plenty of #'s for u...

gfrg88
08-23-2005, 08:39 PM
get ready for AOM when your done with this....

bobafett
08-23-2005, 08:46 PM
yeah the built motor NA will happen in a couple months... and the boosted part... who knows? maybe thats a good goal for the beginning of next race season... :P

my car may not be pretty enough for AOM, but hopefully it will be quick enough

mykwikcoupe
08-23-2005, 09:21 PM
well now the turbo timers thats a load of marketing bs. Your gonna tell me your gonna leave a manual tranny in neutral for a whole extra minute. My understanding in perspective and general knowledge, the turbo itself runs in a given range. Unless you rev hard and shutdown you not really gonna do a whole lotta damage. Its been my understanding if you run kinda soft for the last mile and worst case scenerio just sit in the car at idle for a minute your good but even thats not nessecary. I like the scramble because it gives you an extra program on to of the others. Liek I said. 1 for street, one for race and a quick 45 secong scramble for a smoke show or dyno pull.

I think the problems with most EBC is the controller itself and the installation. Im not knocking adams b20a install. It sounds like he did everything he could but I wonder if a silicone line is a better tool than a rubber line for such applications. Who knows that may be what he used but ultimatly it was the hose itself that failed not the controller.

Accordtheory
08-23-2005, 09:51 PM
with an oil cooled turbo, the timer is not necessarily b.s., and 9.5:1 is fine

bobafett
08-23-2005, 09:54 PM
well given that im a student who commutes an hour to work and an hour to school, im late all the time... a turbo timer IS going to be useful for me. its definetly a good investment for how cheap they are. i may not always be able to wait for a couple minutes for my turbo to cool down. anyone know of a harness that works for the 3g for a turbo timer?

mykwikcoupe
08-23-2005, 09:58 PM
well it wouldnt be the first time I had a different opinion. Im not going to run one uless it seems beneficial in some way. Thats just me. I dont understand how an oil cooled turbo would change anything in my statement. If you drive normal or easy for the last few limutes or last mile or so or even just sit in the car for a minute the turbo isnt under load or stress thus creating a cycle time to cool down properly. is my thinking incorrect or is the theory wrong?

EvilPenciler
08-24-2005, 06:48 AM
motec ownz

gr3k0sLaV
08-24-2005, 04:11 PM
motec ownz

MOTEC is Aussie built & designed ECU :)

Also with compression even 10.5:1 is fine.

I know the the VW Golf GTI's run turbo and 10.5:1 (was looking at one yesterday)

bobafett
08-24-2005, 04:17 PM
im sure i could run 16:1 if i WANTED to... the point is, is it practical to run 9.5:1 on a turboed street car, with ghettodyne style tuning...which im starting to believe it is. but now i really need to figure out what i would be doing for fuel and tuning.

RobT5580
08-24-2005, 06:32 PM
Its all in the tuning and my other motor was 9:1 and i was going to do 9.5:1 but i dont feel like blowing another $500 on pistons so im going back to my 8.5:1. Reliability issues arrise from poor quality parts and poor tuning. If built right it will last a reasonable time granted boost will take away some life due to higher power output. My friend has a 450hp Nissan SER that made 70,000 miles before it needed a rebuild and that was hard driving so in my eyes thats great considering the boost level and power output.

Boost brings a lot of headaches as i found out granted its a custom setup that has not been done before.

mykwikcoupe
08-24-2005, 09:35 PM
hey rob whats all done to that ser. Ive got friend whos done a bunch. he knows im into engines and all so he asks me only i wont waste my time on an a nissan so if you could just ask then tell me that would be cool. Thanks.

bobafett
08-25-2005, 08:09 AM
interesting rob... what was your tuning plan going to be with 9.5:1?

i would consider going lower CR, but im not committed to turboing the car yet. i mean i want to of course, but its nothing concrete. i just figure if the motor is already built, might as well boost it ya know... :) kinda overkill and low CR to make NA power. :P

RobT5580
08-25-2005, 04:36 PM
hey rob whats all done to that ser. Ive got friend whos done a bunch. he knows im into engines and all so he asks me only i wont waste my time on an a nissan so if you could just ask then tell me that would be cool. Thanks.

Fully built and sleeved and i know he has a pretty big tubro cant recall which one (maybe the GT35R).

As for tuning i still have the AEM EMS and probably will use the same tuner again. This time around its getting build by the best in the business so hopefully no bad news this time around.

bobafett
08-25-2005, 07:11 PM
hmm. EMS is definetly nice it would cost me $3k to get the module, extra's i would need, and installation and a solid tune from guys that are really good with the EMS...

im thinking i want to go the route of obd1 + uberdata or something along those lines... i need to get my extra head so i can play with distributors! :)

mykwikcoupe
08-25-2005, 10:22 PM
he sais extra head. If you find it let me know i could use some of that also. oh and Im not talking about the b20a head rob has either.

RobT5580
08-26-2005, 04:48 PM
I paid $2300 for my AEM EMS, AEM CDI Ignition, 3.5 bar map sensor and my AEM Wideband. So if you shop around you can manage it for less i just wanted the extra stuff from AEM.

bobafett
08-26-2005, 05:09 PM
did u install the AEM yourself? the $3500 figure was installed and tuned... 2300 for the goodies that you have is not a bad deal at all though!

RobT5580
08-26-2005, 07:09 PM
Install is easy its the setup/tuning thats the issue but i know there are a few good shops out your way that can do the EMS well. I got a package deal and if you wait a few months AEM is coming out with a OBD-0 EMS which will plug into the accord harness. The retail prices are high but ebay has cheap prices usually around $1279.

bobafett
08-26-2005, 11:16 PM
interesting, that would be a good possibility. www.torquefreaks.com is 5 minutes from me, they are familiar with EMS ;-)

RobT5580
08-28-2005, 08:45 AM
I hear about a guy from there on occassion that tunes aem. If you think you would get the AEM you should register on the the AEM forums then you can see who has a decent rep and all that good stuff. Also honda-tech lets rumors out fast so bad tuners usually get put up fast so you can also see who's a decent tuner that way but dont go by one persons impressions get a collective source of info. This is why my guy comes over 10hrs away granted my tuning sessions have never gone smoothly but w/o him i would have spent countless hours figuring out stupid crap. So its worth the extra money for the right tuner but your setup has to be up to par as well especially since the tuner wont be familiar with the limits of the A20A

89T
09-16-2007, 06:43 PM
bump for progress and all the non running turbo accords.(including mine ;) )

bobafett
09-16-2007, 07:59 PM
Where to begin?

Motor etc is all set, still not completely broken in though. I have the car totally stripped out again and I am going to rewire all of my gauge and switches since the car is carpetless now.

Yesterday I installed my external kill switch for the car, so that I can race at my local track with a battery relocation kit.

Finishing up progress on my crank trigger sensor bracket, and I will be using an Electromotive tecGT standalone engine management system.

The next steps are getting the EMS installed, stripping out more of the wires and crap that I don't need out of the engine bay, and getting a civic radiator installed, so that I can actually fit my turbo and manifold into the engine bay.

From there I am going to build a custom bumper support so that I can fit a tallish intercooler on the car and get the fmic and charge piping ran.

Once all that is figured out I am going to have to come up with a solution for a downpipe, which may or may not be damn near impossible.

After I get the wires stripped out and gauges and other junk installed I will take some pictures of my progress, right now it is a total mess. But I am working on it constantly still. :)

Low Tek
12-11-2007, 01:18 AM
thats it? no new info? commin.. cant leave a guy in the dark.. is it done? in? lol.. lets hear it!!!

89T
12-11-2007, 07:01 AM
:wtf:i just noticed you have been working on it for 5 years:omg:!!!!
get the lead out:wave:...this s.o.b. better run better than high 10's for 5 years of work.:)
you need to:pc:(get off the computer)and get in the garage and dust off those tools....:Owned:

lol j/k how you getting along with the build?

bobafett
12-11-2007, 09:42 AM
haha rub it in!

I have my crank trigger sensor and modified crank pulley back finally. I am still working on getting the engine management finished up. I am getting the EMS in trade, and have not completed my end of the bargain yet. I am creating a new website for electromotive,and it's still a work in progress. :)

http://electromotive.dept25.com/ feel free to check it out.
Their old site is here: http://electromotive-inc.com/

I need to figure out a final plan for the exhaust manifold and dp strategy. Some days I look at it, and see lots of room to route piping, other days I look at it and think there is no way in hell I could fit even a 1" dp in there. lol...

I go back in forth debating whether or not I need to build a new manifold that would make plumbing easier. On the other hand I could easily get a set of traction bars built ($$$) and I would have plenty of room for pipe routing.

The intercooler I have had my eye on is finally back in stock, so I will be getting that soon I hope. Then I will pick up a radiator and pull the trigger on that business. :)

Honestly I have just been so busy I haven't spent any time working on the car. Once I get the EMS in my hands I will get the car running and tuned up NA, break in the motor etc, and resume the boost project. Its been over 2 years since the car has really even been driven more than when I moved.

It is getting lonely and needing some attentions.

Believe me if I had cool updates I would post them. I think that 10's are probably out of reach, but I do hope to hit 11's. Its not going to be johnny-o or jason budd fast. ;-)

2oodoor
12-11-2007, 12:13 PM
thats it? no new info? commin.. cant leave a guy in the dark.. is it done? in? lol.. lets hear it!!!

he has been posting updated info but just not on this thread !:wave:

89T
12-13-2007, 09:24 PM
haha rub it in!

I have my crank trigger sensor and modified crank pulley back finally. I am still working on getting the engine management finished up. I am getting the EMS in trade, and have not completed my end of the bargain yet. I am creating a new website for electromotive,and it's still a work in progress. :)

http://electromotive.dept25.com/ feel free to check it out.
Their old site is here: http://electromotive-inc.com/

nice site! you got me one too, it just hasnt shipped out yet right.... :)lol.

I need to figure out a final plan for the exhaust manifold and dp strategy. Some days I look at it, and see lots of room to route piping, other days I look at it and think there is no way in hell I could fit even a 1" dp in there. lol...

theres only one way to figure it out...start cutting and tacking:wave:

I go back in forth debating whether or not I need to build a new manifold that would make plumbing easier. On the other hand I could easily get a set of traction bars built ($$$) and I would have plenty of room for pipe routing.

refer to previous quote
The intercooler I have had my eye on is finally back in stock, so I will be getting that soon I hope. Then I will pick up a radiator and pull the trigger on that business. :)

Honestly I have just been so busy I haven't spent any time working on the car. Once I get the EMS in my hands I will get the car running and tuned up NA, break in the motor etc, and resume the boost project. Its been over 2 years since the car has really even been driven more than when I moved.

multi-task is the key.....put a laptop in the garage..that's what i did.:)
It is getting lonely and needing some attentions.

:koolaid: ooh!you need some privacy!
Believe me if I had cool updates I would post them. I think that 10's are probably out of reach, but I do hope to hit 11's. Its not going to be johnny-o or jason budd fast. ;-)
this thread is worthless with out a running car and 11 second time slips!:Owned:

sorry bobbafett, i thought i would have a little fun..:)

bobafett
12-13-2007, 09:29 PM
oh nobody wants it finished more than me (except maybe my wife so i am done working on it lol).

all in good time, I have become very very patient. plus i keep modding my wrx, and we just bought a sweet forester, so cash flow is limited. :(

89T
12-13-2007, 09:37 PM
you know i am just giving you a hard time. the wrx has got to be a fun car!

bobafett
01-05-2008, 09:47 AM
Okay here is another update:

I have my civic radiator now.
I have my FMIC now
I have all of my charge piping bends and couplers, and we have a pretty solid start on routing but nothing cut perfect yet.

I am probably going to modify the stock bumper beam today and see about getting fmic mounted and bumper modded for intercooler. with any luck we can get the cold side pipes done, and possibly the radiator mounting all finished up. :)

Pics later today if I am feeling motivated. You will also get pics of the crank pulley and trigger wheel if I take pics today.

military mase
01-05-2008, 02:09 PM
oh nobody wants it finished more than me (except maybe my wife so i am done working on it lol).

all in good time, I have become very very patient. plus i keep modding my wrx, and we just bought a sweet forester, so cash flow is limited. :(

Man i'm glade my wife's not the only one that feels this way. Yeah mine is slow going now to but it's down to the last little bit. I'm right behind with the bobafett. Can't wait to see it when it's done.:thumbup:

bobafett
01-05-2008, 11:44 PM
http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/progress/Accord001.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/progress/Accord002.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/progress/Accord005.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/progress/Accord006.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/progress/Accord008.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/progress/Accord010.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/progress/Accord011.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/progress/Accord012.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/progress/Accord013.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/progress/Accord014.jpg

So today was a big day for the accord! Big thanks to Zeph (zufer on the forum) for all of his work...

We definitely made a lot of progress:

Zeph cut the shit out of my stock bumper beam with a cut off wheel in a 4" makita grinder until we could hang my intercooler up there. I am using a 29" x 6" x 2.5" bar and plate intercooler from www.siliconeintakes.com

Once we had a few attempts at getting enough material cut out and cut off all the lips and tabs that were going to be in the way of intercooler piping we cleaned it up a bit and tried to make it less dangerous. It probably needs some rustoleum paint but I added some door trim molding to keep my from cuting myself when working around it. You can see the little black trim peice around the edge of where we cut.

We drilled two holes in the top of my bumper support beam to mount directly into the M8 x 1.25 pegs on the top of the intercooler. We used several washers in between the intercooler and the bottom side of the top of the bumper support, in order to push the intercooler far enough down. It lines up pretty well but we will need to trim the bumper more in order to slide the bumper all the way on. It is about an inch off right now.

-----

I had written this all out perfectly explaining what we did but it wouldn't let me post it and 'cancelled' my post for me so now I get to retype what I am willing to type or can remember......

-----

The civic radiator project was pretty fun. We started off reusing the stock lower passenger side mount and bushing. This puts the radiator in almost the perfect position, but we still needed to smack the hood with a hammer a couple times in order to allow the radiator cap and the upper mounting stud room to breath.

As you might notice, my upper radiator support is gone. I replaced it with a 1/8" thick piece of 1.5" angle aluminum. This allowed me to keep the radiator more vertical and not have to hack the shit out of the stock upper support. I just built some mounting tabs that went from the new upper radiator support to the front of the radiator, and bolted in where the stock upper fan mounts are located. I am using a 10" low profile aftermarket fan, so I do not need the stock fan mounting holes. It is really sturdy in there right now, and even with out lower drivers side support it is held in place very well by my upper supports. That being said I still plan on building a small aluminum tab with a grommet fitted to it to support the other post on the bottom of the radiator.

Because of the new upper support I will not be able to run the stock hood latch (my release was starting to get sketchy so no biggie) but I am happy to just run hood pins to make all that more simple.

-----

The charge pipe installation just sort of fell into place. We only used 2 45 degree couplers, 2 90 degree couplers, and 2.5 feet of straight tubing, the rest was silicone couplers. We used a couple of reducers for the throttle body and turbo outlet connections, but with the exception of one hump hose the rest were either 90 degree couplers or straight couplers.

It doesn't have all the clamps on it because we assumed we would need to modify the bends and cut a little bit. We did not have to cut ANYTHING except for the straight tube we needed in about 3 spots. Since it all came together so well we just left it on for now, but it could be all clamped up real quick and ready to run.

-----

I have some major concern on whether or not it will be possible to fit a downpipe on this setup, because the turbo placement will make that really tricky. But we got some 3" flexible ducting to try to mockup some bends to see if it is physically possible. We got it to work with the flexible ducting, so I believe that we can probably fit some sort of 2.5" downpipe in there if we get a really tight set of bends going.

-----

We made some good headway today, and there isn't a whole hell of a lot left to do.

I need to pick my injector size, get a downpipe and exhaust built, setup hood pins, and get my engine management solution in my hands. I can't think of a heck of a lot left to do beyond those steps. It will just be a matter of fine tuning the little issues and getting the car broken in the rest of the way and then tuned.

I can't wait!

ZackieDarko
01-05-2008, 11:49 PM
yaurrrr

2ndGenGuy
01-05-2008, 11:57 PM
Woah! Awesome man! Nice work! Not much further left to go. Can't wait to see it running man!

labeledsk8r
01-06-2008, 12:07 AM
WOOT looks good,

89T
01-06-2008, 04:34 AM
i must say nice work.wait till you drive it.
what's up with f**ck a20's on the timing belt lol.
as far as injectors go it really doesn't matter what size you run.
i am running rc 850's and their running at 45% duty cycle. i thought id add that just to give you an idea of where you'll be.

i hope you can figure out that down pipe,looks like it's going to be a bitch.

nice!

2oodoor
01-06-2008, 04:44 AM
say where do you get those T-belts from, JDM? lol
very nice project photos all in all

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/progress/Accord006.jpg

A18A
01-06-2008, 05:28 AM
ahahhaha i noticed the fuck a20's cam belt too lol

bobafett
01-06-2008, 09:52 AM
yeah i wrote that on there when it took me like 30 tries to get my timing belt setup properly. because of the shaving and decking that went on with this motor the timing is DEFINITELY off quite a bit.

I would have everything lined up PERFECTLY and be off 1 to 2 teeth every time. On the upside on my motor (which has lots of stuff removed) I can change the timing belt in 15 minutes now.

We literally did it about 10-15 times a day for a few days... :(

Anyway the silver pen was to indicate which tooth on the cam gear or the timing belt needed to be lined up on. Eventually we got frustrated and FUCK A20'S was born.

I love my motor though so don't worry. The car started cooperating for a change which was pretty pleasant!

Justin86
01-06-2008, 12:02 PM
I like the progress!

LiquidIC
01-06-2008, 01:23 PM
well... now everybody and their mom is going to know youre turboed... for the best!

NICE work and VIVA LA SILICONEINTAKES.COM

who helped you with the radiator mount?looks like a good and simple solution


and


FUCK A20's

bobafett
01-06-2008, 04:09 PM
rad mounts was all me :)

EricW
01-06-2008, 09:43 PM
Nice work, can't wait to see it running. I had to do the same to my bumper, just not quite as much and I welded a piece of 1.5 inch square tubing into it.

Zufer
01-06-2008, 09:45 PM
ya they were all you... except the idea was partly mine.
The car came together really nicely yesterday. It was pleasant to work on one of chris's cars and have it cooperate.

bobafett
01-06-2008, 09:46 PM
yeah my best guess is that an 8" tall core is the MAX that can be fit on an accord while using the stock bumper support beam. :) shame i was hoping to use a larger intercooler lol

Accordtheory
01-07-2008, 03:12 AM
don't want to read through this whole thread again..I know it probably says, I'm just wondering where you got that manifold..
And be sure to post up a pic of the front, I'm curious to see what it looks like. I'll be lopping out a big section of my bumper too.

89T
01-07-2008, 04:15 AM
yeah my best guess is that an 8" tall core is the MAX that can be fit on an accord while using the stock bumper support beam. :) shame i was hoping to use a larger intercooler lol
anything beyond 8" is a waste of time and money, unless you cut a bunch of gay holes in the bumper cover.:)

bobafett
01-07-2008, 07:19 AM
don't want to read through this whole thread again..I know it probably says, I'm just wondering where you got that manifold..
And be sure to post up a pic of the front, I'm curious to see what it looks like. I'll be lopping out a big section of my bumper too.

I bought the manifold from AccordinglyAZ, who is now ChaseR on the forum. I believe he bought it from elijah who had it custom built by somebody who had an a20 flange and no car to mock it up in :( hehehe

Its ok I think I may have a strategy afterall!

Zufer
01-07-2008, 11:33 AM
Chris has a lot less faith in the downpipe then i do. I think with a pic cut similiar to what is seen in these two pictures it would be doable in 2.5". 3" probably isn't possible but oh well. Once he requires more flow a new turbo manifold will have to be made.

http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/attachments/honda-acura-tech/53485d1123439203-slocxhatchs-down-pipe-made-cms-2005_0806_212040aa.jpg
http://www.punishment-racing.com/gt35rpackage_op_800x600.jpg

bobafett
01-07-2008, 11:43 AM
Zeph I put in a request for the www.mandrel-bends.com guys to get me a quote for 3 feet of 16ga. 2.5" tubing cut into a million little pie peices. I figure they can get it a lot more accurate and fast than me, and if I have to pay $30 extra for a bunch of super precise cuts I am happy to do that compared to spending $100 on blades and spending a weekend trying to cut my own tubing.

http://www.motokarts.com/resources/pie_cut_calculator.xls

Using this I have figured out a couple things:

1. our mockup dp, had a gap of about 1/2" between the inside edges after the 180 bend was all said and done... sound right zeph?

2. this dp used 3" tube, our dp will be 2.5" but the outside edge can maintain the same profile, so we should gain 1" of 'gap' in the middle, and still be able to clear our targets.

3. so with a 1.5" gap between the pipes, that leaves us with a 2" center line radius bend.

4. plug in 180 degrees bend with 2.50" pipe diameter, and 2.0" center line radius that leaves you with the following choices:

- 12 peices at 7.5 degrees and 0.84842" length on long edge of the pipe
- 10 pieces at 9 degrees and 1.016824" length on the long edge of the pipe
- and so on, until I get really rough...

but even 8 slices for a 180 bend is looking pretty rough. I want to keep as good of flow through this bend as possible, since the bend itself is going to be very restrictive.

Zufer
01-07-2008, 12:02 PM
i think that doing a 12 piece bend wouldn't be too bad. That would be sweet if they would make all the pieces. I'm willing to tack it together if we can borrow a welder. I would then think that the best option would be to have someone TIG weld it together. But we could get it all fitted before that would need to happen.
Here's one mroe pictuer that gives me hope.
http://members.aol.com/wa00civicsi/images/newmanifold2.jpg

bobafett
01-07-2008, 12:13 PM
if i get stainless can we tack it with a mig welder that my neighbor probably has? i assume you don't need anything special just to tack stuff together.

if so I can always take this to vancouver to get a tig welder to finish it off. im sure stephanies dad would hook me up. :)

that picture makes it look possible, they are doing a pretty tight bend.

MessyHonda
01-07-2008, 12:21 PM
since you dont have ac or ps....cant you use that space for a nice downpipe.

bobafett
01-07-2008, 12:33 PM
my downpipe exits towards the passenger side, so no, i don't get to use that space for anything fun. the intake piping and air filter will be able to fit nicely though.

i wish i could turn the turbo the other way but the turbine hits bigtime on the motor, so there is no chance there. :(

Zufer
01-07-2008, 01:01 PM
http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v173/123/38/29300111/n29300111_30852787_1957.jpg

heres a quick model i did of the dp. That is with 12 pie cuts. And a 3.75 radius for the rest of it. Just kinda what i might look like.
Let me know what ya think.

And for tacking all we'd have to do is get some different wire for doin stainless. not too expensive at all.

bobafett
01-07-2008, 01:07 PM
i think by the time i get home solidworks08 will be finished downloading, you will need to give me a crash course! :)

that is pretty much exactly what we would need to build. i cannot remember off the top of my head if the bends other than the initial 180 will need to be super sharp, but I think that 3.75" might not cut it.

still that is looking damn close. still waiting to find out what it would cost to get those slices of pie. :)

I am trying to imagine what sort of downpipe could be built with a traction bar in place and trying to think if that would allow for a more mellow angle.

Zufer
01-07-2008, 01:11 PM
I Think that the traction bar might gain us a slighly more mellow angle. But probably not a whole lot. because we still need to have that tranny brace in there. If that was not needed we could get a lot more mellow. I'd say building one with the stock crossmember is probably the way to go and if you need the traction bars you can get those later. but lets just focus on getting this thing running.

added:
If we need tighter bends we could alway get an exhaust donut. Those are 2.5" radious bends

Accordtheory
01-07-2008, 05:59 PM
Well, this might seem a little extreme for you guys, and I still might not actually do it, but due to the absolute lack of clearance for a downpipe with the oem crossmembers, I'm planning on cutting a hole in the pass side "framerail", carefully reinforcing it, and running the exhaust so it exits down at an angle right in front of the wheel. I should be able to fit a small muffler in the engine bay. I don't think the exhaust will end up being unpleasant inside the car, esp considering that e85 burns really cleanly. No smog bullshit in south dakota..but I could still get a ticket for it. It'll be somewhat loud, but hopefully only obvious where the exhaust is coming from when either it's cold outside or running rich under boost. (in which case who cares, then I'll be liable to be pulled over for speeding anyway)

bobafett
01-07-2008, 06:08 PM
Yeah if we go with a 2" CLR that is going to be as wide as the outer edges of our mockup. which cleared, barely. :)

Cost on the pie cuts is 2 minutes of shop time per slice. I am thinking of just getting 24 peices with 7.5 degree angles on them. This is the 12 sections per 180 degree bend. That should allow us to get down under the oil pan and into the easy spots. So figure an hour of their time plus the 2 feet of tubing it would take to build those 24 slices.

Considering it would take us at least that much cost for metal cutting discs/blades alone I don't think that is an unreasonable cost. :) I will pick up this plus a 45 and a 90 and 3 feet of straight pipe. That should cover anything weird we need to do with the DP.

EDIT:
Accordtheory - I wish I could commit to doing something like this... It would make the project a lot easier. I just don't have the balls to do it, and I am not sure if the track would even let me race like that out here. I want to say that exhaust has to exit behind the front tires. Believe me that was the very first thing that crossed my mind when the turbo had to be oriented in that direction. lol

Accordtheory
01-08-2008, 04:57 PM
I don't know, I've seen pass side front exhausts at the dragstrip (sacramento raceway, cali)multiple times. I even made one for a guy with a civic years ago. (turbo gsr in a hatch) I've never seen one on the streets in person though, except for that guy. I started a thread on h-t about this, and most people either loved it or said not to do it. Most people's setups who didn't like it were pretty half assed though, they weren't true side exits, and they complained about the fumes, I wonder why..lol. I like it for simplicity, massive weight reduction over a 3-4" full exhaust, and nearly no restriction to flow. It'd be a pain to do, but easier than modding the front and tranny crossmembers. It's probably illegal almost everywhere though, just gives the police another reason to harass me. As if they don't do that enough already, they patrol my block like I'm slingin crack to the kids..

LiquidIC
02-15-2008, 12:59 PM
just do it... once the DP is done, then your next worry is the amount of volume that huge turbo is going to flow and the inefficient IC you have isnt going to cool the air much... i think it would be fun to run methanol when youre at high boost... think about it?

LiquidIC
02-20-2008, 11:03 AM
ok. i have decided to take the plunge.

however, i do have a few ground rules:

1. must be cheap, this is a very budget oriented project
2. must be reliable. making good power means nothing to me if i cannot drive the car :)


aside from that pretty much anything goes...

i will prolly be bugging you guys a LOT for info, but i need to have all my plans done before i start buying anything.

the loose plan right now is to build up a VERY low boost turbo set on the accord. i am talking 3-5psi.... because of this i should save a lot of money on "building" the engine and buying FMICs and shit...

what i would like to start planning now, are the mods i can do to my car while it is NA, that will help prepare me for a turbo project.

keeping in mind that all i care about is reliability. my first thought was to get guages going. if i have a a/f guage, and a boost gauge (measuring vaccum at the time being) it will give me good info when turbocharged.

also i thought that fixxing up my intake manifold (swapping to a 88-89, and doing the P&P job) would be smart.

also i was wondering if i would need a better fuel system with such a low boost application. bigger fuel pump, injectors? what would i need.

the main things i am concerned about taking care of first, are the preventitive mods... to keep the car safer, and have me not worry about it blowing up constantly.

PLEASE< i need a lot of help, and i know this wont be an overnight project, but hopefully i can finish in within 1 year, and give hope to everyone else on here about a small little turbo setup that adds maybe 25-55 HP.... :) that would ideally be extremely buildable, but this is a safe starting point i would hope!

thoughts please?

i just read the first posting from 2002 a little bit before we stared hanging out...


and now youre about 10k deep in this project? what happend to LOW boost... or did you decide that low boost is no boost? hahaha:wave:



put that in your charge pipe and boost it

bobafett
02-20-2008, 02:46 PM
anything under 35psi is low boost right? hell according to electromotive if its under 100psi its not THAT crazy. lmao...

ZackieDarko
02-20-2008, 07:58 PM
anything under 35psi is low boost right? hell according to electromotive if its under 100psi its not THAT crazy. lmao...



i think at 35 psi...you just might stand a chance against teh b16 powA

AccordEpicenter
02-20-2008, 08:23 PM
i think at 35 psi...you just might stand a chance against teh b16 powA

lol

bobafett
02-20-2008, 11:13 PM
yeah 35psi compression in each cylinder would still probably be sufficient to beat a b16 :)

AccordEpicenter
02-22-2008, 02:32 PM
pretty much. i dont think juan went any faster than high 15s with his b16 haha. I went high 15s NA with an A20 lmao

bobafett
02-22-2008, 02:44 PM
Yeah I want to say Juan got into the 13.3 range with bottle, but yeah, the NA just wasn't as impressive. IMO you need to be in a sub 2000 lbs car for an NA b16 to really rip.

Low Tek
03-13-2008, 08:56 PM
DAMN..... Boba.. you are my hero.. I am in debates on my next project... I wanna turbo too! And you are runnin 35 psi? wow.. I gotta see the beast...

bobafett
03-13-2008, 09:33 PM
haha whats up wayne! nick says you and chris still have his copy of 'drift bible' he is dying to get it back lol...

i doubt that turbo will keep up at 35psi. 25 might be in the works though...

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?p=863393 - got some pics of the new engine management that showed up today.

Low Tek
03-13-2008, 09:36 PM
nice.. I dont think I have it.. chris has it.. or he did.. lol...I think I might be getting my hands on a 86 200sx turboed...

still in longview? should get together sometime.. would be cool..

86AccordLxi
03-13-2008, 10:56 PM
Nooooo, don't get an s12. Get an s13 or a corolla. /hijack.

Alex

AccordEpicenter
03-14-2008, 12:28 PM
damn, wayne i thought you were mia!

Low Tek
03-14-2008, 12:59 PM
Nooooo, don't get an s12. Get an s13 or a corolla. /hijack.

Alex

lol... its a good price...


damn, wayne i thought you were mia!

naw.. just been dealin with life.. i had a carbed accord, but it died, and now I am thinkin about a s12 hatch... figured I would make myself known, and noticed boba is kickin with this turbo project... I dont have an accord, so I have not been to any meets.. lol

LiquidIC
04-22-2008, 11:24 PM
yeah... someone tell Chris that i would like my "Drift Bible" back...


also

why havent you posted pictures of the turbo INSTALLED with a downpipe along with the slightly modified civic radiator position??????????

bobafett
04-23-2008, 06:41 AM
Yeah i dunno. Also have the sexy coilpacks mounted up but haven't posted pictures of that. :( I am a slacker I know. OTOH I finally ordered my switches that I need for my race panel, so now I just need to find lights/LED's, and a few spools of wire and it's going to be time to get started. :)

bobafett
04-29-2008, 06:45 PM
Okay well I finally have an update... I managed to get my spark plug wires built and I think they turned out pretty damn good!

I am using Moroso Blue Max Spiral Core plug wires. These have a high amount of resistance built into the wire, and are meant to work with the electromotive ignition system a lot better than a set of low resistance plug wires would.

Pics:

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/plugwires/IMG_0768.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/plugwires/IMG_0769.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/plugwires/IMG_0770.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/plugwires/IMG_0771.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/plugwires/IMG_0772.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/plugwires/IMG_0773.jpg

forrest89sei
04-29-2008, 06:58 PM
Why did you write FUCK on your timing belt?

bobafett
04-29-2008, 06:58 PM
It has been covered before. it says FUCK A20's ;-)

I earned the right to write that on there after having to redo the timing belt about 15 times a day for a few days. PS shaved and decked heads and blocks REALLY do make setting the timing a bitch FYI.

forrest89sei
04-29-2008, 07:03 PM
Ok great, now I can say this


LOOKS SWEET! :thumbup: :thumbup: :rockon:

2ndGenGuy
04-29-2008, 07:06 PM
Man those wires are huge. The wire organizer looks bitchen too. Good work! Can't wait to see it running!

AccordEpicenter
04-29-2008, 07:23 PM
ERROR 404

Turbo Not found




Hahahaha jk! Looks like its coming together! Im getting the engine back from the machinist prolly next week and the suspension is in the car so im starting to catch up. Who do you think will have their shit running first?

/threadjack

bobafett
04-29-2008, 07:30 PM
Hahah you will probably get your setup going again first. I am not in a rush. The main thing now is that I have to rewire the whole car from scratch, which is gonna take some time.

I am forgetting about the turbo for now and just focus on getting all my wiring done and getting a NA street tune.

But I agree, turbo not found. :( hahah

Pico
04-29-2008, 07:38 PM
One Word.......














WOW!!!

MessyHonda
04-29-2008, 09:18 PM
engine bay looks good....i want to get a fuel rail...how much do thoes aem ones go for?

thegreatdane
04-30-2008, 05:04 AM
Holy shit, that ignition setup looks awesome. Like all the rest. EGT logging, damn your serious about this :)

Solid front engine mount, huh?

bobafett
04-30-2008, 06:13 AM
Yeah the front mount was a temporary thing while I tried to get that turbo working with the ram horn manifold. Turns out that with that turbo, I just couldn't get a downpipe built without major headaches.

For anybody wanting to do a traction bar setup in the front it is the ultimate turbo manifold, but with a stock crossmember it won't happen.

Thanks for the comments. The AEM rail was bought of of ebay a couple years ago, but it was probably around $150. My AEM fuel pressure regulator is suspect, but I need to test a stock one now to determine where my fuel 'issue' is coming from.

If I were to do it again I would buy one of the cheaper GE rails. The AEM is fine, but its functionally not any better than the $75 ones on ebay.

Next up I need to start on putting the interior together, and wiring up the ECU, and all of my gauges and switches. :-) Fun stuff!

The inside of the car will consist of:

2 seats
1 pedal assembly
1 steering wheel
1 shifter
1 emergency brake
1 battery
1 ecu
1 painless fuseblock
9 gauges (Tach, Speedo, Boost/Vac, Wideband AFR, Water Temp, Pyrometer / EGT, Oil Pressure, and Voltage)
9 switches (Ignition, Engine Start, Fuel Pump, ECU, Headlights, Reverse Lights, Single Speed Wipers, Turn Signals, Hazards)
10 indicator LED's (A LED for each switch plus Check Engine Light, and Shift Light)

So yeah I have a lot of work to do! :) And yes this means my headlights have to go up and down manually unless I keep them up all the time. :)

LiquidIC
04-30-2008, 02:38 PM
sexy

ZackieDarko
04-30-2008, 06:16 PM
i call dibs on the 1st ride

LiquidIC
04-30-2008, 08:41 PM
i call dibs on the 1st ride

negative you have to put in over 30hrs of work on the car with Chris before you are able to participate big smoky accord rides...


what that said
Me
Zeph
and maybe Justin?
are ride available:cheers:

bobafett
05-01-2008, 06:52 AM
Yeah there is a list of friends who have put in a lot of time on this car... :)

LiquidIC
05-01-2008, 06:57 PM
Yeah there is a list of friends who have put in a lot of time on this car... :)

because we love you like a sister:thumbup:

bobafett
05-25-2008, 03:18 PM
Okay, another small miracle happened!

Thanks to Nick (LiquidIC) ^^^^^^ for helping me with this stupid panel.

I present to you, my new dash! All it needs is 2 more LED's which I forgot to buy, and I am good to go. Gotta figure out how to mount it too, but it will be in a good position and pretty much all but one gauge will be easily viewable, so I will just put my fuel gauge there in the blind spot!

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0787.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0788.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0790.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0791.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0795.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0796.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0797.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0798.jpg

I am planning on painting the panel black, and also I will be adding an S2000 engine start button in the weird blank area.

Cheeseburger
05-25-2008, 04:02 PM
crazy bro! keep it up!

2drSE-i
05-25-2008, 06:03 PM
phew you must have spent a small fortune on gauges.....looks good bro!

bobafett
05-25-2008, 07:44 PM
yeah those have been purchased slowly over the years. but yeah some of them weren't cheap. :( now i just need an airplane and i have a good chunk of instrumentation out of the way, lol.

EricW
05-26-2008, 07:53 AM
Looks good. Are you going to label the swiches or are you just going to memorize them since you built it.

AccordEpicenter
05-26-2008, 08:39 AM
chris those are gonna look sick!! How are you gonna mount them bro? I like the plexi idea!

bobafett
05-26-2008, 09:09 AM
I was going to label them, because originally I was going to make 2 rows of four switches, but it put the switches too close to the edge of the panel, and I wanted to leave room for angle iron brackets on the panel, so I needed to leave a little breathing room. So instead I had to cram them together using 3 rows, which didn't leave enough room for labels.

The top row is IGN, ECU, and fuel pump, so those are easy to memorize, they always need to be on.

The middle row will give me some trouble, they are headlights, wipers, and reverse lights. I might want icons or something on these because I will probably never use them. But I am thinking headlights closest to me, then reverse lights, then wipers.

The bottom row is turn signals and hazards. :) Pretty easy to remember.

As for mounting, honestly I have no idea. I plan on framing the whole thing with angle aluminum just to give it some rigidity so that it doesn't flex around. With all the holes in it, and heavy gauges it definitely is a bit flexible. From there I will just have to bolt it to the very front of the car which means long brackets. So I am not sure how I will get it to be really solid. But I'm sure I will find something that works. I need to keep it pretty close to me in order to reach the switches while strapped into my seat.It is definitely close than stock gauges are. But I'm sure its a doable task to mount a square panel up. It will just need sufficient support from below to support the weight.

forrest89sei
05-26-2008, 06:51 PM
Sweet :d

2ndGenGuy
05-27-2008, 08:42 AM
Wow the plexi is a cool idea. I thought the sheet aluminum was a cool idea, but this will be more badass. Now you are really going to have to make your wiring neat and tidy. :)

Accordtheory
05-27-2008, 09:02 AM
I like the coil packs, but please, change this throttle cable setup asap!
http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/plugwires/IMG_0773.jpg

bobafett
05-27-2008, 09:17 AM
what do you suggest? ;-) send me a b16 cable bracket and I will install it right away!

For now this bracket works great! I think the extra throttle spring is a bit ghetto looking, but it is needed in order to close the throttle all the way. :) And I couldn't get it looking much better.

Oh and a random tidbit of information I learned: according to AEM tech support guy, their fuel pressure regulators are not meant to hold pressure when the pump is not on. So I guess my whole 'fuel problem' may not have been a problem at all.

LiquidIC
05-27-2008, 10:34 PM
i was happy in how the gauge panel turned out...






plus...

I like the coil packs, but please, change this throttle cable setup asap!

we rock what we got!

and it works


im all about function

Accordtheory
05-28-2008, 10:41 AM
what do you suggest? ;-) send me a b16 cable bracket and I will install it right away!

For now this bracket works great! I think the extra throttle spring is a bit ghetto looking, but it is needed in order to close the throttle all the way. :) And I couldn't get it looking much better.

Oh and a random tidbit of information I learned: according to AEM tech support guy, their fuel pressure regulators are not meant to hold pressure when the pump is not on. So I guess my whole 'fuel problem' may not have been a problem at all.

I don't get why you need the extra spring. Doesn't that throttle have its own spring on the shaft, just like a normal oem throttle? Why doesn't it close all the way? I've had to make my own throttle cable brackets twice, first for my setup like yours, the aebs, then my ls swap, and now I'll have to make yet another one. My stupid bbk gsr IM puts the throttle so low that the cable actually has to be angled downward to clear the manifold. My vtec oil line further reduces the clearance. To give you an idea of how tight it is, my 90-93 ls throttle body won't even fit without its pulley hitting the vtec oil line. But still, if your throttle cable is somehow preventing the throttle from closing all the way, that isn't right, wtf? You shouldn't need an extra spring, what is going on?

I

bobafett
05-28-2008, 11:06 AM
Yeah I don't remember the exact details of why we had to do that. But I couldn't get the car to register 100% WOT until I adjusted the throttle cable to where it is now. But when I did that I needed a bit more spring on the throttle to snap it all the way closed.

For some reason it would just take a bit more pressure to close it all the way to where my idle was maintained properly. Not sure why THAT is.

Once I added the spring it gave the pedal a nice heavy feel, and closed the throttle plate with EASE which allowed the car to actually idle. Also I was still able to make 100% WOT (as measured from the SAFC) confirmed by eyeballing.

gfrg88
05-28-2008, 08:56 PM
Yeah I don't remember the exact details of why we had to do that. But I couldn't get the car to register 100% WOT until I adjusted the throttle cable to where it is now. But when I did that I needed a bit more spring on the throttle to snap it all the way closed.

For some reason it would just take a bit more pressure to close it all the way to where my idle was maintained properly. Not sure why THAT is.

Once I added the spring it gave the pedal a nice heavy feel, and closed the throttle plate with EASE which allowed the car to actually idle. Also I was still able to make 100% WOT (as measured from the SAFC) confirmed by eyeballing.

so were are these 100% WOT vids at?!?!?:nervous:

Accordtheory
05-29-2008, 12:02 AM
I couldn't get the car to register 100% WOT until I adjusted the throttle cable to where it is now. But when I did that I needed a bit more spring on the throttle to snap it all the way closed.

You don't me to tell you that isn't right.

bobafett
05-29-2008, 07:01 AM
Honestly it was probably more to do with the TPS alignment than anything. It was close to 2 years ago when we did all that, so I don't remember the exact circumstances too well.

But consider this is a totally different throttle body, so the same amount of pull from a throttle cable isn't guaranteed to rotate the new throttle plate a full 90degrees (or whatever it is) to get truly wide open...It's close, but not exact.

I did not have that problem with the stock intake manifold and stock throttle body. But even with the 70mm TB it was like 97% open or something, it's not like it was a large amount.

Overall we did what we needed to do to get it running without somebody having to hold their foot on the gas to keep it idling.

-----

As for the vids, I wish I would have had some, but the battery in my video camera has been dead for 4 years, and I haven't bothered to replace it. WOT in an NA accord with 8.4:1 CR is not as exciting as you would think. The 282 cam helped a lot, but still, it wasn't fast or anything.

After the break in when I can actually take the revs up I will definitely have some vids. :)

guaynabo89
05-30-2008, 06:09 AM
http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/plugwires/IMG_0768.jpg





Very nice! Its been a long time since I checked up here. It looks like the Spectre v8 plug wire holders are become the standard in aftermarket plug wire holding technology for the a20's!

LOL


Very good work on the gauges too. You must have like 800-1000 dollars in instumentation there!


Keep it up manIm glad to see your still getting there.:rockon:.

bobafett
05-30-2008, 07:11 AM
Yep I love those plug wire holders!

Oh don't worry I am getting there very slowly but surely... eventually I will have some bigger updated, hopefully in the next few weeks there will be some major progress.

LiquidIC
06-02-2008, 07:30 PM
so im thinking that...

a week, probably the 15th-20th we can just knock out all the wiring, get EVERYTHING done and buttoned up... fire it and break it in N/A


and then maybe we toss the manifold and turbo on... plumb it and BOOST THAT SHIT...


what do you think?

bobafett
06-17-2008, 08:10 PM
http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0831.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0832.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0833.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0834.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0835.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0836.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0837.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0838.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0839.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0840.jpg

bobafett
06-17-2008, 08:11 PM
http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0841.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0842.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0843.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0844.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0845.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0846.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0847.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0848.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0849.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0850.jpg

bobafett
06-17-2008, 08:12 PM
http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0851.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0852.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0853.jpg

http://a20turbo.com/features/chris/racepanel/IMG_0854.jpg

bobafett
06-17-2008, 08:19 PM
So Nick and I finished up most of the engine bay wiring of the engine management system. There is only a couple things left to wire in the engine bay, such as radiator fan wiring, but the fan hasn't even been mounted so that is not going to happen yet.

We built some mounts for my gauge panel, they turned out pretty decent. Also painted the back of the panel, and installed the gauges in there.

In the engine bay you can't totally tell, but all the wiring is in place, so its pretty well hidden and following brake lines and other stealth ways.

Still have to wire up all of my switches and shit like headlights, taillights, turn signals etc... and I need to give power/ground to my wideband o2 sensor, and finish running sensor wires to the gauges.

Anyway we made a lot of slow progress on things like the crank sensor bracket and just little shit that hasn't been finalized.

The cabin of the car is a huge mess right now, but will gradually be cleaned up I think over the next few days/weeks...

knarg
06-17-2008, 08:19 PM
that is crazy, nice work

2ndGenGuy
06-17-2008, 08:26 PM
Damn dude. It's getting close for sure. Nice work on that stuff!

87roach
06-17-2008, 09:00 PM
Very nice work man! Soo clean, this is going to be one hell of a 3g!

Zufer
06-18-2008, 12:21 AM
that guage mounting turned out pretty good. I like the amount of points you mounted from that should make it nice and sturdy

guaynabo89
06-18-2008, 04:36 AM
Nice!

Glad to see your geetting some work done.

Did you ever post pics of how the trigger wheel bolts up to your crank pulley?

bobafett
06-18-2008, 06:35 AM
Yeah I did post that in another thread. Let me see if I can find the pics I will post them here as well. :)

EDIT: Found them - http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64229 Many pics of the engine management shit and the crank trigger wheel in this thread.

Basically they machined off the PS/AC grooves, leaving me with a single belt pulley. Then just machined a snout so the trigger wheel could seat properly over the snout. Then drilled and tapped 6 holes to bolt the trigger wheel to the crank pulley. I finally shot the pulley with some paint to keep it from oxidizing since it was starting to look a bit weird. Crank trigger sensor is .042" from the wheel, which is well under the .0725" max gap, so I am good to go there...

EricW
06-18-2008, 02:07 PM
Looks good, nice work. I wish i lived closer I would love to see your car in person.

guaynabo89
06-18-2008, 02:28 PM
Looks good, nice work. I wish i lived closer I would love to see your car in person.

me too.


come pick me up and we'll do a road trip. :D

bobafett
06-18-2008, 02:52 PM
Yeah I know you guys are in the wrong corner of the country but if you are ever in the area I'm happy to put up some follow 3geez members.

I still haven't seen a running and driving turbo A20 in person - so I would love to check out your cars as well.

guaynabo89
06-18-2008, 03:29 PM
lol

me n eric.

2 turbo a20's to washington. What you think Eric? Only about 350 in gas each way. (Ouch!)

When I hit the lotto maybe.:(


ON the other hand if you ever make your way to Florida You'll definately have to stop by. :D

Justin86
06-18-2008, 05:17 PM
All most getting there!

LiquidIC
06-19-2008, 12:54 AM
I think we did pretty good for eyeballing the fitments for the gauge panel... my back is still sore from all that BULLSHIT.

carotman
06-19-2008, 03:05 AM
WOW!

One of the craziest projects out there!

Dr_Snooz
06-19-2008, 05:37 AM
Wow! This car is the shiznit! It's amazing how at the start of the thread, you're like, "I want a low boost turbo, nothing fancy..." Now the car is off the chain.

Way awesome. Can't wait to see it finished.

bobafett
06-19-2008, 07:07 AM
Haha yeah I read through the whole thread yesterday. Funny how things change over the years. Other than how long it's taking, I am very happy with how the project is shaping up.

I'm hoping that it will be quick enough to keep me entertained and reliable enough to get beat on regularly.

Keep the questions and comments coming... it helps me actually get motivated to get this thing done!

EricW
06-19-2008, 04:21 PM
lol

me n eric.

2 turbo a20's to washington. What you think Eric? Only about 350 in gas each way. (Ouch!)

When I hit the lotto maybe.:(


ON the other hand if you ever make your way to Florida You'll definately have to stop by. :D

I think it will be more than 350 for gas, at least 450. We would be broke by the time we get there.

guaynabo89
06-19-2008, 04:24 PM
lol

yeah

Lets all thank Bush for that one.

ZackieDarko
06-19-2008, 05:46 PM
lol

yeah

Lets all thank Bush for that one.

slight thread jack

dont blame bush blame these pricks

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677#25252591

/end thread jack

Dr_Snooz
06-19-2008, 09:13 PM
Oh no! Here we go...

MessyHonda
06-19-2008, 10:41 PM
woot for turbo...

gfrg88
06-20-2008, 08:00 AM
SWEET!!!!!!! hurry up and finish this!! :rockon:

bobafett
06-20-2008, 08:08 AM
I should have some more wiring done after this weekend. I will post pics of course if I make any notable progress!

Chris

2oodoor
06-20-2008, 11:24 AM
Mad science at it's best, very very very very very very gasp very nice

bobafett
06-21-2008, 09:43 AM
Okay so Zeph and I got some more shit done last night working until 5am lol...

Stock radiator hoses will not fit over the civic radiator necks, so we had to buy some rad hose for another car that had appropriate angles in it. I have no idea what we bought, but it works perfectly, we have a couple of unions to step up from the stock accord hose up to the larger size that fits the radiator. So radiator hoses - DONE.

PCV valve was pissing me off so we redid that and now it goes underneath the intake manifold instead of through it and back around to the back of the manifold. This will be nice when I am done with my break in because routing the PCV to a catch can will look far more natural. PCV system - DONE.

We also bolted in my clutch bracket and tightened up any loose bolts in the engine bay, put my stock motor mounts back in instead of the classic solid steel front mount.

Mounted up a radiator fan, ran alternator wiring through the firewall, ran starter ground wire through the firewall, etc.

Basically the engine bay is ready for action now, I just need to change the oil and add coolant.

--------------------------

Inside the car is a cluster fuck right now, we are just getting the wiring connected for the sake of getting it connected, and not worrying about making it tidy in the LEAST!

I figure once I get everything functioning I can go through and reroute and re-terminate each area, but for now we just need lots of slack and lots of mess, and make sure it all works.

I have a functioning ignition switch that is on a relay, I have a functioning fan switch also on a relay, and my gauges all come on with the ignition switch.

Next step is wiring up the ecu to the ignition switch, wire up my wideband, and wire up the pushbutton starter, and I think I will have the bare minimum to start the car (no brake lights etc so not going to be driving too far yet).

Its getting there guys, I may have pics of the rad hoses and PCV system later on today...

BITESIZE
06-21-2008, 11:41 AM
When you get it done, I will come. lol seriously.

MessyHonda
06-21-2008, 05:36 PM
pics!

bobafett
06-21-2008, 11:21 PM
Alright guys good news!

It runs!!!!!!

This morning we finished up all the wiring and prep, and we managed to fire the engine and eventually get it to idle.

Basically we have a hell of a time getting the motor started when its all cold, but after 10 or so brief attempts it is usually warm enough to roughly idle along. Eventually once it warms up it gets it's brain and acts okay.

I had it idling at 1500 rpm at one point after adjusting the throttle body, and it was VERY VERY VERY smooth. Even though I have window weld motor mounts it did not shake the car at all.

Once the idle dropped down to 600 or so it definitely was a bit rougher and shook the car, but what can I expect. I imagine a 1000-1500 rpm idle will be the norm with this car anyway.

We haven't driven it yet, so no idea what the 'under load' portion will look like, but we can get 1/2 throttle free revs out of it, and even full throttle stabs will rev up after a brief complaint.

I haven't hit the rev limiter yet (set at 6000 for the breakin) but I got close. Hopefully we can get it smooth enough to go for a quick drive tomorrow.

Also some of my gauges are fucking up. The water temp gauge is sort of erratic, and the wideband display has only powered up twice out of like 200 times we turned the ignition on. Other than that everything is working as expected.

Anyway it sounds like no other a20 I have ever heard. It just sounds so strong and 'right' I am definitely loving it, but definitely in over my head with the management for the time being.

I can snag some pics of the final engine bay shots and shots of the inside are probably going to be off limits until I do some MAJOR wiring cleanup it is a fucking nightmare in there right now. Everything is hooked up properly but not a single wire is routed properly. So it is going to take a lot to get it to a standard that it needs to be.

But I am very pumped that it is finally able to start and run, and it sounds and feels great! Maybe pics tomorrow, and if I am motivated and can figure out how, I will take a quick movie with my wife's camera.

- Chris

guaynabo89
06-22-2008, 05:08 AM
Alright!

That's great! Try and get a video of the software on the laptop with the car running. :D

bobafett
06-22-2008, 05:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dLTcplcPs8

Okay here is...

By now we have the no load tune a bit closer, and next thing will be to get it insured again and go cruise around and get some loaded tuning done and see where it goes.

cygnus x-1
06-22-2008, 06:07 PM
Sounds like you had a little bit of a rolling idle, but otherwise sounds VERY smooth! Really like the way the muffler sounds too. What is it?

C|

bobafett
06-22-2008, 06:13 PM
Yeah idle is a little bit wavy, but I lowered the idle speed from 1500 to about 1100 so it got a little worse than it was. Also we are not using the MAP blend feature which uses tps sensor instead of map value, to smooth out idle and low load low tps situations. If I were to sneak in some MAP blend I could probably get it a bit closer.

But considering that it pulls 20 in/Hg now, and before (with stock ecu) it only pulled 12 in/Hg, and it actually holds a solid idle, before it wouldn't even do that for me. With all the headwork I have I think a perfectly smooth idle is going to be hard to achieve. But its smooth enough and its not rattling everything loose like it used to, so I am stoked!

The muffler is just a standard 2.5" inlet 'fireball' style muffler that I got YEARS ago. My exhaust is a 2.25" catback with a DC header and a 2.25" high flow cat...

I will eventually piece together a stainless mandrel bend 3" exhaust and install the Vibrant Racing flat black muffler that I picked up a while ago. There is at least one other member on here who has the same muffler.

guaynabo89
06-22-2008, 06:19 PM
wow nice boba

I'm happy for you. keep up the great work!

EricW
06-22-2008, 06:39 PM
Looks great, Keep up the good work.

2ndGenGuy
06-22-2008, 09:58 PM
Dude, fuckin' A thats rad! Nice work!

cygnus x-1
06-23-2008, 07:26 AM
Ok, so sounds like it's all MAP based then, which should work just fine if you can pull that kind of vacuum. A trick I learned from tuning my MS was that to get a good idle you need to bracket in that area in the tables. So if you set the idle for 1000RPM say, you have RPM bins at 900 and 1100. And if the MAP at idle is say 32kPa, you have bins at maybe 30 and 35kPa. So now you have 4 table values that *surround* the idle point. Set those 4 values to be all the same to reduce the tendency for wavering. Do this for the timing and fueling tables. Also you can make the timing advance for the 2 lower RPM bins slightly higher than the 2 upper RPM bins. This way if the idle starts to sag it gets a slight boost from the extra timing advance.

That is if you really care that much about the idle. :D What cam do you have in there?

C|



Yeah idle is a little bit wavy, but I lowered the idle speed from 1500 to about 1100 so it got a little worse than it was. Also we are not using the MAP blend feature which uses tps sensor instead of map value, to smooth out idle and low load low tps situations. If I were to sneak in some MAP blend I could probably get it a bit closer.

But considering that it pulls 20 in/Hg now, and before (with stock ecu) it only pulled 12 in/Hg, and it actually holds a solid idle, before it wouldn't even do that for me. With all the headwork I have I think a perfectly smooth idle is going to be hard to achieve. But its smooth enough and its not rattling everything loose like it used to, so I am stoked!

The muffler is just a standard 2.5" inlet 'fireball' style muffler that I got YEARS ago. My exhaust is a 2.25" catback with a DC header and a 2.25" high flow cat...

I will eventually piece together a stainless mandrel bend 3" exhaust and install the Vibrant Racing flat black muffler that I picked up a while ago. There is at least one other member on here who has the same muffler.

bobafett
06-23-2008, 07:45 AM
It uses MAP, TPS and crank position as its main inputs. MAP and TPS is all it uses to determine load. Right now I only have the stock cam in there, but as I get the motor slightly more broken in I will probably throw a 282 on there. Or I might just jump to a cam that is optimal for turbo, even though I will be NA for a few months while I get comfortable tuning this thing.

I don't care if the idle is not ROCK solid. I am not expecting to have a good idle once I have 750cc injectors and a more radical cam. It would be nice to figure it out now though, because the better I get at dialing it in, the closer I will be able to get it later.

For now we have just been messing with IOT (injector offset timing) and TOG (time for one GAMA). I don't think we have messed with timing or the VE tables very much at all, but I think we may have pulled a bit of timing due to some lean part throttle spots.

Still have so much to learn it's unreal. Thanks for the tips though, that makes sense as a good way to tackle the idle and I will probably give it a shot next time I get a chance to work on it. :)

87roach
06-23-2008, 06:23 PM
This is great!! Nice to see it running finally, sounds just wicked. Keep up the good work!

Dr_Snooz
06-23-2008, 06:46 PM
That car is EVIL, brah. Heh heh!

I love it!

cygnus x-1
06-23-2008, 07:25 PM
It uses MAP, TPS and crank position as its main inputs. MAP and TPS is all it uses to determine load. Right now I only have the stock cam in there, but as I get the motor slightly more broken in I will probably throw a 282 on there. Or I might just jump to a cam that is optimal for turbo, even though I will be NA for a few months while I get comfortable tuning this thing.

I don't care if the idle is not ROCK solid. I am not expecting to have a good idle once I have 750cc injectors and a more radical cam. It would be nice to figure it out now though, because the better I get at dialing it in, the closer I will be able to get it later.

For now we have just been messing with IOT (injector offset timing) and TOG (time for one GAMA). I don't think we have messed with timing or the VE tables very much at all, but I think we may have pulled a bit of timing due to some lean part throttle spots.

Still have so much to learn it's unreal. Thanks for the tips though, that makes sense as a good way to tackle the idle and I will probably give it a shot next time I get a chance to work on it. :)


Oh man, I spent SOOOOOO many hours just driving around tweaking stuff. It's really addictive after awhile! Getting the VE table right was pretty straightforward with a wideband sensor and data logging. You just drive around at various throttle positions and loads and adjust until you get what you want. Acceleration enrichment was much more difficult. Timing is probably the toughest, and I still don't have that exactly right. Drivability is good but I don't think it's right for maximum power.

I have no idea what GAMA is. Hehe.

C|

bobafett
06-23-2008, 08:23 PM
Took it for it's very first spin on the road today...

Didn't get any tuning done because my datalogging didn't start recording like I thought it had, so I don't have any info from the trip.

However it ran pretty smooth with reasonable AFR's from what I saw while driving. I stabbed the throttle once and the car immediately choked out and almost died with a super rich AFR. So there is definitely some work to do. But the light throttle stuff felt almost like a normally drivable 'stock' car.

I have a lot of little things to fix before I want to drive it around much more, so for now I am confident in the fact that it can cruise around, but I have a lot more tidying up and preparing to do before I want to drive much more.

More updates to come...

forrest89sei
06-23-2008, 08:25 PM
YAY!!! :rockon:

LiquidIC
06-25-2008, 09:30 AM
your car is gay.
electromotive is gay.
big late spooling turbos are gay.

bobafett
06-25-2008, 09:56 AM
haha let me guess you want to check it out for yourself! :nervous:

getting other things dialed in... got my tps calibrated properly - so now I don't get check engine lights constantly, started using tps/map blend to calm down my idle (now sits between 900-1100), got my rev limiter figured out, and took out some constant and coolant based fuel enrichment (so it doesn't run 9:1 at startup now). I slightly tweaked the IOT down a bit more, and didn't add any to the TOG but so far it seems okay.

I bled the brakes and got the steering wheel properly fixed, so once I get brake lights the car will be almost legal and safe to drive.

and yes all of the things you listed are VERY happy and good things! especially the car... it is very joyous and gay to be running again after so long.

Zufer
06-25-2008, 10:07 AM
good deal... glad you are able to get the startup more reasonable. I knew that with some time it'd get better but we were just working on getting it running this weekend. glad to hear its all coming along nicely.

done anything with any wiring yet?

oh and good news... i know a lot more about how to tune my carbs after some reading. so once i get a wideband i'll be able to fine tune them pretty well i think. and i desperately need a rebuild.... it leaks out of every end like a siv!!!

bobafett
06-25-2008, 10:26 AM
Next time you come up you should leave with my spare block and start getting it going. Shouldn't need much of an overbore to get it ready, it was in known great shape other than rings and valve guides leaking like crazy since it blew a lot of blue smoke.

Although I MAY want to keep the oil pan if it is not damaged so that I can have an extra to tap for oil return. I guess it depends on whether or not my oil pan actually leaks. So far it seems like my 'power steering' is the only thing leaking, I think I need to redo the hoses and loop them again instead of capping them all.

Also need to build a new overflow tank that I can actually mount somewhere. :) Something like this - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Universal-3-Aluminum-OVERFLOW-Coolant-TANK-all-Civic_W0QQitemZ320267306502QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m320267306502&

Still can't get WOT anywhere close but I will probably go cruise around in the evenings and get part throttle closer. I might try the EGO input to allow the ECU to just try to acheive the proper AFR but its only allow to modify +/- 8% of the pulse width so it won't go too crazy.

guaynabo89
06-25-2008, 12:23 PM
your car is gay.
electromotive is gay.
big late spooling turbos are gay.

Is this an inside joke?

bobafett
06-25-2008, 12:28 PM
Yeah this is one of my buddies who helped me wire up a lot of this car recently and has helped me out a lot working on the car over the years as it has progressed.

No worries... ;-)

guaynabo89
06-25-2008, 12:33 PM
oh ok.

Just wanted to make sure. :D

(Oh and dont let javawhatsitshooset see that you posted the word gay.we'll have to go through that whole deal again) ;)

russiankid
06-25-2008, 12:37 PM
That thing sounds very nice. I wish my car sounded so nice. Keep up the good work!

bobafett
06-25-2008, 12:45 PM
Thanks, its a little loud now since there is no interior - and only going to get louder lol :( I don't mind too much though to be honest.

russiankid
06-25-2008, 01:56 PM
Thanks, its a little loud now since there is no interior - and only going to get louder lol :( I don't mind too much though to be honest.

Mine is quiet, sometimes I forget its running.:stick:

cygnus x-1
06-25-2008, 09:27 PM
Still can't get WOT anywhere close but I will probably go cruise around in the evenings and get part throttle closer. I might try the EGO input to allow the ECU to just try to acheive the proper AFR but its only allow to modify +/- 8% of the pulse width so it won't go too crazy.

Have you not tried adjusting the VE table yet? That's the way it's usually done as I understand. And as it turns out (in may case at least) I don't actually need any O2 feedback at all. Once the VE table is dialed in, I use the AFR table to set whatever AFR I want depending on RPM and MAP. So if I want an AFR of 12.8:1 at 3500 RPM and 100kPa, that what I put in the table and that's what I get. The O2 sensor was used to dial in the VE table, but after that it's just an indicator.

But I have no idea how your ECU works, so YMMV.

C|

bobafett
06-26-2008, 05:23 AM
Well I CAN choose to setup VE at this point, but their tuning guide recomends tweaking that after getting a few other things sorted out. Which I can't do at the moment since I can't get the software to datalog for me. :( Working on getting that resolved, then I will be able to take a closer look.

I am curious for what you are using for a timing table, because I imagine using what you have is going to be a lot closer than the generic 4 cylinder timing map that my software starts out with. 2ndGenGuy found a screenshot with some of your timing settings, but I didn't know if that was current or not.

I will get to the VE table soon, but with my software they say I shouldn't need more than 5-10% adjustments MAX, and I should be able to get the car most of the way there without it, but dial in max power etc by using that table.

My EGO correction also doesn't appear to be happening, but there was a lot of criteria that the engine has to meet before it will kick that in, so I probably have one of those settings off. :)

Still new to the game of course~

cygnus x-1
06-26-2008, 07:31 AM
I was curious so I DL'd the manual for the TEC3 ECU (couldn't find the TEC GT). The overall control seems similar to MS but setup and tuning is different. One interesting thing is how they assume the engine fueling is linear based on load and RPM, so the VE table is more for trimming. In the MS world the VE table (and AFR table if you use separate tables) totally defines the fueling. So VE table tuning is critical. I can see the TEC style tuning method being easier to tune than the MS method. I'm definitely going to read more of that manual. Cool stuff.

My timing table works pretty well but it's not tuned for max power. Mostly because I'm too cheap to have it done on a proper dyno. I started with some Honda map that I forget now, and adjusted based on information from the MS forums and the ever popular butt dyno. So here's my current version:

http://www.bluegreenlabs.com/Prelude/Dragstrip/SparkTiming-05-13-2008.jpg


You'll have to fill it in for the boost areas but this should get you started. I'm REALLY interested in any feedback on this table because I haven't been able to find ANY other examples of timing maps from an A engine. Obviously that's largely due to the fact that most people have mechanical distributors, but somebody has to have figured out an optimum timing setup for these engines. At least I would hope.

C|



Well I CAN choose to setup VE at this point, but their tuning guide recomends tweaking that after getting a few other things sorted out. Which I can't do at the moment since I can't get the software to datalog for me. :( Working on getting that resolved, then I will be able to take a closer look.

I am curious for what you are using for a timing table, because I imagine using what you have is going to be a lot closer than the generic 4 cylinder timing map that my software starts out with. 2ndGenGuy found a screenshot with some of your timing settings, but I didn't know if that was current or not.

I will get to the VE table soon, but with my software they say I shouldn't need more than 5-10% adjustments MAX, and I should be able to get the car most of the way there without it, but dial in max power etc by using that table.

My EGO correction also doesn't appear to be happening, but there was a lot of criteria that the engine has to meet before it will kick that in, so I probably have one of those settings off. :)

Still new to the game of course~

bobafett
06-26-2008, 07:42 AM
TECgt - http://distributorless.com/products/tecgt.php
TECgt manual - http://electromotive-inc.com/pdf_files/TEC-GT%20Users%20Guide.pdf

WintTEC4 - http://distributorless.com/products/wintec4.php
WinTEC4 Software - http://www.electromotive.us/products/software/WinTEC_v405B025.zip
WinTEC4 Guide - http://electromotive-inc.com/pdf_files/WinTEC4%20Software%20Users%20Guide.pdf

I can email you my BIN file if you are interested in taking a look at what my car runs on, although the settings are certainly no close to done yet.

I figure that if our cars run 'okay' or even 'better' on a stock p75 obd1 ecu, we might be able to emulate their timing maps as a reasonable starting point. However I don't have info on those maps.

When I get home I may try shifting my timing and trying some of the values you have in there to see how it runs.

bobafett
06-26-2008, 09:23 AM
Okay I grabbed some stock bins from xenocron.com for some stock setups and used crome to look at them.

Here is a D16Z1


mbar 114 230 345 461 576 692 808 905 981 1035
vac/bst 26.48" 23.06" 19.67" 16.26" 12.87" 9.45" 6.04" 3.18" .94" 0.3 PSI
est kPa
est kPa 11.4 23 34.5 46.1 57.6 69.2 80.8 90.5 98.1 103.5
500 16.5 16.5 16.5 10.5 5.75 1 -1.75 -5.5 -6 -6
547 16.5 16.5 16.5 10.5 5.75 1 -1.75 -5.5 -6 -6
648 16.5 16.5 16.5 10.5 5.75 1 -1.75 -5.5 -6 -6
734 16.5 16.5 16.5 10.5 5.75 1 -1.75 -5.5 -6 -6
805 16.5 16.5 16.5 10.5 5.75 1 -1.75 -5.5 -6 -6
898 16.5 16.5 16.5 11.5 5.75 1 -1.75 -5.5 -6 -6
1124 16.5 16.5 16.5 13 7 2.75 -1.75 -5.25 -6 -6
1484 18 18 18 14.75 9.75 6.25 0.75 -2.75 -6 -6
1769 18.5 18.5 18.5 16.25 12.25 9.5 5.5 2.5 -5 -5
2000 18.75 18.75 18.75 16.75 13.75 11 7.25 4.75 -3 -3
2312 19.5 19.5 19.5 17.5 14.75 11.75 9.25 4.75 0.5 0.5
2592 19.5 19.5 19.5 17.5 15.25 12.75 10.5 6.75 4 4
3000 19.5 19.5 19.5 16.5 15 13.75 12.25 8.75 7.25 7.25
3220 20 20 20 17 15.5 14.25 12.75 9.25 8 8
3592 21.75 21.75 21.75 19.75 17.75 16 11 10 9 9
4248 24 24 24 21.75 19.75 18 13.75 12.75 12 12
4560 27.75 27.75 27.75 25 22.25 20.5 15.75 14 13.25 13.25
5000 31.25 31.25 31.25 28.25 24.75 22.75 17.5 15.25 14.25 14.25
6064 31.25 31.25 31.25 28.25 24.75 22.75 17.5 15.25 14.25 14.25
7936 31.25 31.25 31.25 28.25 24.75 22.75 17.5 15.25 14.25 14.25


Here is stock P75


mbar 114 201 288 403 576 750 865 923 981 1035
vac/bst 26.48" 23.91" 21.35" 17.96" 12.87" 7.75" 4.36" 2.65" 0.94" 0.3 psi
est kPa
est kPa 11.4 20.1 28.8 40.3 57.6 75 86.5 92.3 98.1 103.5
500 16.5 16.5 16.5 16.5 10.25 3.5 -2.5 -5.25 -6 -6
703 16.5 16.5 16.5 16.5 11.25 5 -1 -3.75 -5.75 -6
797 16.5 16.5 16.5 16.5 12.25 6.25 -0.25 -2.75 -5 -6
1000 22 22 22 20 15.75 10.5 5 2 0 -1.75
1296 26.75 26.75 26.75 24.75 21 16.5 12.75 9.5 7.25 5.25
1500 29.75 29.75 29.75 27.75 24.25 19.75 16.5 13.25 11 9
1704 32.5 32.5 32.5 30.5 27 22 18.5 15.5 12.5 10.5
2000 36 36 36 33.75 30 24.25 21.75 19.25 16.25 14.25
2188 37.75 37.75 37.25 35 31 26.25 23 20 16.75 14.5
2500 40.25 40.25 39 36.75 32.5 27.5 24.5 21.25 17.75 15.25
2688 40.75 40.75 39.25 37 32.75 28 23.75 19.25 15.75 13.25
3000 40.75 40.75 39.25 37 33 29 25.5 20 16.75 14.25
3500 40.75 40.75 39.25 37 33.75 31.25 29.25 27.75 25.75 23.75
3812 40.75 40.75 39.25 37 34 32.25 30.5 29.25 27.75 26.5
4312 40.75 40.75 39.25 37 34.25 33 31 29.75 28.75 27.75
4466 40.5 40.5 39.25 37 34.25 33 31 29.75 28.75 27.75
5000 39.5 39.5 39.5 37.25 33.75 31.75 30 28.75 27.75 26.75
6000 41.75 41.75 41.75 39 35 33 31 29.75 28.75 27.75
7000 41.75 41.75 41.75 39 35 33 31 29.75 28.75 27.75
7936 41.75 41.75 41.75 39 35 33 31 29.75 28.75 27.75


Here is another LS Integra Map


mbar 114 201 288 403 576 750 865 923 981 1035
vac/bst 26.48" 23.91" 21.35" 17.96" 12.87" 7.75" 4.36" 2.65" 0.94" 0.3 psi
est kPa
est kPa 11.4 20.1 28.8 40.3 57.6 75 86.5 92.3 98.1 103.5
500 16.5 16.5 16.5 16.5 10.25 3.5 -2.5 -5.25 -6 -6
703 16.5 16.5 16.5 16.5 11.25 5 -1 -3.75 -5.75 -6
797 16.5 16.5 16.5 16.5 12.25 6.25 -0.25 -2.75 -5 -6
1000 24 24 24 22 17.5 12.25 5.75 3.5 1 -1
1296 28.75 28.75 28.75 26.75 23 18.5 12.75 9.5 7.25 5.25
1500 31.75 31.75 31.75 29.75 26.25 21.75 16.5 13.25 11 9
1704 34.5 34.5 34.5 32.5 29 24 18.5 15.25 12.5 10.5
2000 38 38 38 35.75 32 26.25 19.5 16.25 15.5 14.5
2188 39.75 39.75 39.25 37 33 28.25 20.5 17.25 16 14.75
2500 42.25 42.25 41 38.75 34.5 29.25 21.5 19.5 17.75 15.5
2688 42.75 42.75 41.25 39 34.75 29.5 23.75 19.5 15.5 13.25
3000 42.75 42.75 41.25 39 35 30.5 26.5 20.5 16.75 14.25
3500 42.75 42.75 41.25 39 35.75 32.75 30.5 27.75 25.5 23.5
3812 42.75 42.75 41.25 39 36 34 31.75 29.75 28 26.25
4312 42.75 42.75 41.25 39 36.25 35 33 31.75 30.5 29.25
4466 42.5 42.5 41.25 39 36.25 35 33 31.75 30.5 29.25
5000 41.5 41.5 41.5 39.25 35.75 33.75 32 30.75 29.75 28.75
6000 43.75 43.75 43.75 41 37 35 33 31.75 30.75 29.75
7000 43.75 43.75 43.75 41 37 35 33 31.75 30.75 29.75
7936 43.75 43.75 43.75 41 37 35 33 31.75 30.75 29.75

cygnus x-1
06-26-2008, 08:44 PM
The P75 table looks familiar. I think that's what I started with. But I remember at one point thinking that I was getting some pinging at WOT so I backed it way down. The problem I have is that for whatever reason my manifold (B18A1) makes this screeching sound and it's very hard to hear any pinging. I think I might make up a new table based around the P75 and see how it works again. When I went to the dragstrip a couple months ago my times were not quite as fast as I was expecting. Best time was 16.25s. So maybe I'm not running enough advance.

And thanks for the links. I'll check those out.

C|

bobafett
06-27-2008, 01:58 PM
w00t got data logging working again. Turns out I am just a dumbass and was missing a step. Anyway now I should be able to get a chance to cruise around and begin tuning over the next few weeks.

No idea where to begin, but at least I can log my trips now!

cygnus x-1
06-29-2008, 07:14 PM
Decided to do an experiment today to compare the timing map I posted with the P75 map. I did 2 full throttle pulls with each of the two maps on the same flat stretch of road. The data from MS were logged and the HP and torque calculated based on gear ratios and tire size using the MegaLogViewer program. The results showed that the P75 map was on average about 2-4 HP better than the map I was previously using, across the RPM band. Torque was up 3-5 lb-ft. Above 6000RPM HP was even better, at 4-6HP gain. There was no pinging either, so I would say the P75 map is good!

The engine also felt a little smoother revving with the P75 map. I did bump up the idle timing a little to help the idle but that's it.

C|

bobafett
06-30-2008, 06:14 AM
Interesting, so you just ran an unmodified P75 ignition map?

It scared me jumping the timing values up so high so quickly, but I guess its not that bad to do after all. I figure an A20 is an A20 is an A20 as far as timing is concerned, I may convert my map to something like that as well.

Do you know why they have negative advance in some of the areas, that looks like flooring it under load at low rpm to prevent it from pinging, is that the right idea?

My map won't need so many rows below 1000 rpm since my car idles there. probably a 700rpm and a 1200rpm would be appropriate since I should be able to dial in the idle somewhere there

My idle kPa is like 45 though, so I will need to start at a different point in the map and hopefully just do linear interpolation to get the map dialed in close enough.

I wonder if the < 40 kPa columns are meant for off throttle decel or if integras naturally pull that much vacuum. I don't really know the full off throttle decel kPa values, but I know my map starts at 45kPa lol so I may need to tweak that area.

The other thing I wonder is if this timing is on top of the 'base timing' of 14 degrees that is setup in my software. I don't know what exactly that value does but I figure I can just throw a timing light on this thing and see what my actual idle timing is and see if it matches what is in the software.

Since I know what I was doing wrong with the data logging hopefully I can try this ignition map out and then get a chance to cruise around a bit with it.

Anyway thanks for the update on the P75 map, I may slowly shift mine towards those values and see how it goes!

Chris