IDLE ISSUES?! 1987 Accord LXI FI

[03PIERCE17]

I have been having issues with my idle on my 1987 accord lxi FI MT. The PGM-FI light comes on and it throws a code 12. I replaced the EGR valve with a brand new one and no fix on the idle issue, and PGM-FI light still comes on.

Upon start up the RPMs will be around 1500-2000. After the engine is warm idle will go down to 1000 and will slowly work it's way down to 800 then 750 or lower and will almost die. After strugling for about 10 secs RPMs will jump to 1200 then it will repeat the process of dropping slowly to 750 or 700 and bounce back to 1200.

I noticed that when I purchased the vehicle the #16 hose was disconnected , which runs from the EGR to the black box. When i reconnected the hose and drove the car for a couple of days the idle was worse and the engine had a hard time not stalling at stops and when taking off from stops. This led me to believe the EGR was the issue so I replugged the 16 hose until i could replce the EGR which like i stated earlier i did, and after reconnected the hose and test driving the vehicle it still runs with the fluxuating rough idle and PGM-FI light still comes on.

The only thing I can draw from other posts is that it may be the IACV. Should i try cleaning that first. I also tried pinching the PCV hose to see if that would even out th idle and no change occure with the idle after pinching it so no problem with the PCV valve.

Aside from the IACV I'm clueless on the next step to take in determining and fixig the problem, can you guys please help me?!!!

[Oldblueaccord]

I would try bleed the coolant and maybe getting air out of the hoses going to the IACV also.

wp

[03PIERCE17]

I will be trying that soon i have been reading on hear in other threads the air in the coolant could definitely cause the problem im having. im going to pick up my new tool set i ordered from sears tomorrow and then im going to start getting deep into it. Do you think that air in the coolant system would cause a big enough issue for it to throw the pgf-mi light on and code 12?

[Dr_Snooz]

A lot of guys think that a code 12 means they need to replace the EGR valve. That is not the case. The code indicates a problem in the circuit that needs to be tracked down. Download the Honda manual (http://honda.roadpwnage.com/manuals/pages/usdm-accord-1989-full.php) from the wiki (http://3geez.wiki-tv.com/Main_Page) and follow the troubleshooting procedure beginning on p. 12-79. Unfortunately, the only manual available is for 1989 and the EGR system is a little different from yours. Still, go as far as you can and we can help you from there.

[pickupman6]

Here's my 2 cents to point you in the direction. Since its fine til it warms up we know the egr solenoid and egr are working which leaves 2 other culprits. The cvc valve( green and white do-dad in the black box) and the little vacuum canister with 3 vacuum lines coming off of it. I would start by cleaning that by taking the hoses of and spraying it with brake cleaner to blow out the "jets" once you got it about 1/3 full of cleaner shake it to get any of the crud inside loose the using compressed air blow it out. Put it all back together and test it. If it runs fine good if it doesn't, pull the cvc valve and try to clean it. Its already no good so you can't hurt it, I clean it about the same way but be careful not to shoot too much compressed air through it. I usually shut the compressor off at 20psi and blow it out.( My regulator only goes down to 50) once cleaned spray some wd40 or liquid wrench in there. Just a shot or two. Put it back together and hope it works. If it still doesn't you probably need a cvc valve. You can download the manual like snooze said and it will be a piece of cake but you will need a vac gauge at the very least and a vac pump would be very helpful. My way is free, you need no special tools and it usually works. Unfortunately I don't know anywhere to get a new cvc valve if that is your problem. You will have to find one in a junkyard and even then there's no guarantee it will be a good one. I know a 5th gen accord has one but its a little bigger and I don't know that the specs are the same on it. You could try one and let us know. Its located on the drivers side infront of the strut behind the abs module under a metal cover. Good luck I gotta go the wife is nagging me.

[03PIERCE17]

Awesome thanks for the post! I really hope its just crudded up and not bad because ive heard the same thing that u have to get them at a junk yard. I have carb cleaner do you think that is too strong to use? I think I might try canned air so I can retain a low psi when I blow it out just like you mentioned. I will check back in on the weekend and let you know how it turns out. I wish I could do it sooner but Im working long hours right now.

Oh and with the trouble shoot I came to the portion where I needed to attach a special test harness to multiple points on the vehicle and I didnt have one. I think only a honda shop would have something like that.

Thanks again for the posts guys ill post back soon.

[pickupman6]

Carb cleaner should be fine for the vacuum chamber but I would hesitate using it in the cvc. I guess it would be okay to use if you flush it out right away. More than likely it would be fine though, some carb cleaners eat rubber, like I said though, its already broke so you aren't really hurtin anything. Just be sure to do it last.

[pickupman6]

Yeah its unlikely it would come to needing that harness all that harness is is a way to tes continuity on the wires. The same thing can be done by back probing the ecu conector if you know what wire you are wanting.

[03PIERCE17]

Ok I cleaned the cvc and air cylinder just took it for a test drive and light came back on. Idle remains rough almost dies at 800 rpms and idle will recover by jumping up to 1100 to 1200 rpms. Any more suggestions? Im thinking I need to bleed the coolant for air, and or drain completely and put fresh coolant in. could the fast idle valve or idle air control valve be the next area to check? If so where is the idle air control valve located? And by matching images I believe the fast idle valve is located on the back of the intake manifold. Hope to here from yall soon I really want to get her running good.

[Dr_Snooz]

It sounds like a failing IACV to me. Try bleeding it like OldBlue suggests. Also try cleaning it too. There are how-to's on Google. There is a troubleshooting procedure on p. 12-43 of the manual that is worth going through. I would also double-check all your vacuum line routing. It sounds like someone has been messing around with the lines and if they are wrong, it could make things very interesting for you.

Does the car perform and drive well aside from the idle problems?

[ecogabriel]

I would remove the egr valve and block the opening with a metal cover and see what happens. Rough idle may be caused by a EGR valve that does not close completely.
The CVC valve - the green-white disk inside the black box provides constant vacuum for accurate EGR operation - I believe the number is 8 inHG, but if it gives around 6 you
should be fine.
Try getting a CVC valve from an 88-89 lxi; those have a different system and those parts do not become in contact with dirty air as in our cars; if hose #17 is not hooked to the pipe that goes to the throttle body, dirty air would circulate permanently between the
hose and the CVC.
EGR valves from other Hondas are similar to ours but the difference is the electrical connector and vacuum hose position; try a CVC from a 2gen integra if a 88-89 is not available, or take a look at the 4G accord.

The EGR system does not become operative until the engine reaches certain temperature; I know it because I disconnected the #16 hose when trying to help another member with an EGR problem, and the light did not come on until temperature reached almost normal.

[03PIERCE17]

Dr. Snooz

Yikes thats going to be bad, real bad if a line is mixed up! Ill check out that trouble shoot for the iacv and try cleaning and bleed the coolant. As far as how the car runs it seems like it is bogging down like it should have more power and its lagging around 2500-3000rpms. To be more specific it seems like the car isnt getting air and almost suffercating around those rpms. When the pgm-fi kicks on it wont lag as bad but still does. I have been looking around my engine bay for 2 days now and I cant visually locate the iacv can you walk me onto it please?

[03PIERCE17]

Ecogabriel,

I put a brand new egr on two weeks ago, and i am a big fan of making something work like it origionally should. Worst case last ditch effort I might consider blocking things off. changing the cvc with one on an 88-89 seems like a pretty reasonable move. I need to snoop around some junk yards and see about locating one. Any idea where the iacv is located at on the 87 lxi I have been searching around for it and cannot locate it. Thanks for the reply any and all help is useful and greatly appreciated everyone.

[rc00netzero]

My 87 lxi doesn't have the IACV (and never did) yours may be the same.

[Dr_Snooz]

I believe they are called EACV's on these cars.

It's possible that the EGR channels in the intake are clogged too.

[03PIERCE17]

Ill look in the manual for eacv see if anything pops up. With the egr ports could I remove the intake manifold to get to those and clean them. I know I would need to get a new gasket for it if I went and removed it.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah...that's going to be a real nightmare. Pulling the intake is a major project and close to impossible with the engine in the car. I don't actually know how to clean the channels because a shop did mine for me when I failed smog. I know it involves drilling into the top of the intake in a couple spots, but that's all. My internet is glacially slow tonight, so I can't dig up any how-to videos or anything on the web. You'll have to do it yourself and figure it out. Sorry.

Edit: try the video in the first post here (http://www.odyclub.com/forums/28-1995-1998-odyssey/155903-i-know-theres-sticky-but-great-video-cleaning-egr-channel.html). Not 3g specific, but gets the idea across.

[rc00netzero]

03PIERCE17 I have seen a procedure for EGR cleaning somewhere - may have been a Honda document. And yea, it's easier than removing the mainfold - but not easy.

87's (49-state model anyway) don't have the Eacv/Iacv unit - it was only on the 88-89 3g AFIK (they have different (some say better) intake manifold)

IF after you get rid of the EGR code , you still have idle issues (especially cold idle) you may want to adjust or replace the FIV (Fast Idle Valve). It is a notorious source of idle issues too.

[rc00netzero]

EGR cleaning - one method anyway

http://www.preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352136

[03PIERCE17]

Dr. Snooz thanks for the insight before I tried anything as far as pulling the intake manifold. How much did a mechanic charge to clean the ports for you? Is there anything else that you recommend I should trouble shoot or try replacing prior to cleaning the ports as far as the egr system goes?

rc00netzero thanks for the link ill try researching videos on youtube and see if I feel comfortable trying something like that myself.

I appreciate all the help guys.

[kentwat]

Before you go to the trouble of pulling the manifold. Try and go through the tests in the manual for emissions code 12. I had the pgmfi light coming on just like yours. I followed the manual with snooz and a vacuum gauge from harbor freight and finally found the cause. Mine was the cvc. It tested ok but I tried another and it fixed my pgm light coming on. Search for a thread I started and it is good reading.

Also if you haven't bled the coolant do it asap. It can cause all kinds of crazy idle issues. On my 86 lxi my iacv is right under the throttle body. Also the fast idle thermovalve is another to clean. The manual is killer and a lifesaver in one. Keep at it. Kent

edit: actually the fast idle thermovalve is under the tb and the idle is on the back. There are great pictures in the manual.

[Dr_Snooz]

You can test the EGR valve function by connecting a vacuum pump to it. When you pump down, the engine should stall if it's working properly.

[03PIERCE17]

Yeah I trouble shot the car and replaced the egr valve about 3 weeks ago with a brand new one so I know the valve is good. I really need to find a vacuum guage my harbor frieght here only had a break bleed kit with a vacuum guage, and it looked nothing like the guage I borrowed from an auto shop earlier on. I also check all the auto parts stores and hardware stores such as lowes and napa, no joy. So I guess im stuck with ordering one off line.

Im going to look at dr snooz's manual and see how to check the cvc. Maybe there is something different in there from when I conducted my first trouble shoot. Last time I made it to the point where I needed a special test harness to test a part of the egr system. I might go ahead and start checking pull parts yards for a cvc, although I cleaned my last week it could be bad all together. ill probably be putting some work in this weekend and try to trouble shoot and report back with any new info.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah I trouble shot the car and replaced the egr valve about 3 weeks ago with a brand new one so I know the valve is good.

Makes sense. The vacuum gauge is a rough test, just to be sure it's working properly and you don't have a bad part or bad install or coked up channels or something.


I really need to find a vacuum guage my harbor frieght here only had a break bleed kit with a vacuum guage,

If it has a gauge and a hand pump, it will probably work.

[Oldblueaccord]

Out in left field if i unhook my battery my car will not idle unless i drive 30 miles then the idle will pick up. Always been like this.

Wp

[2oodoor]

Out in left field if i unhook my battery my car will not idle unless i drive 30 miles then the idle will pick up. Always been like this.

Wp

I wasn't sure if the 87 had idle learn or not, I guess it does then;)