rack and pinion and front end question

[HondaG]

Hey guys. I'm new here and posted in the newbie intro section yesterday.
My mechanic has recently replaced the rack and pinion on my recently purchased 87 Accord LX which only has a hair over 80k. When I drove it for the first time I was very impressed with the precision of the steering and suspension. I never owned a Honda before and I just thought it was amazing for a 25 year old car. Anyway, after a weeks worth of driving to and from work I stopped at a supermarket and had to turn my wheel all the way right till it hit its locked position then backed up and I felt the steering fighting me. As I backed up I saw ps fluid on the pavement......Damn I was bummed out.
So the mechanic said he would replace it on his dime. I deliver parts to him and he is an account of my job. Guess it was goodwill etc. Anyway, he replaced it. I then took it to get an alignment. The shop I took it to said I need two upper control arms and couldnt do it without them. So now I'm going to let one of the mechanics at the place I work look at it and see what it needs and do the alignment here instead.
The thing is......before the rack leak this car felt fantastic....steering, handling....the way the front suspension felt going over bumps etc. Now after the rack replacement it feels different.....jiggles over bumps, some jiggles sounds etc. Which bums me out. I know it may need upper control arms and the alignment but it now bugs me. Nde
So I'm asking you guys what me and my mechanic should be looking for as well while we have it up on the lift? Especially since its an older car. I just want it to feel as good as it was before.
Thanks
Sorry for making it long and drawn out.

[HondaG]

Also, I'm not a mechanic myself. I can tinker around but thats about it for now. I may ask some boneheaded questions so please forgive me if I do.

[nswst8]

The reason that the rack failed is that the mechanic did not properly flush the system after installing the new rack.

1. Lift the car so that the wheels move freely.

2. Detach the upper P/S reservoir hose and put a vinyl cover over the nipple.

3. Attach a vinyl extended drain hose to the P/S reservoir hose.

4. Start the car and turning the steering wheel full left and full right. Until all fluid is expelled

5. As the car is running and turn steering wheel add a quart of Honda power steering fluid. ( Oreilly's brand is what I use)

Repeat this untill the fluid is clear and you are absolutely sure that the only fluid left in the system is Honda power steering.

When they rebuild these racks they put anything from ATF, to seal preservative until they are installed and flushed.

I replaced 4 racks on my car in three weeks. When I finally read the Honda OEM service manual on flushing the power steering rack. It finally started operating properly.

The stated procedure is right out of the Honda manual.

Once you disconnect the suspension in replacing the rack. It is difficult to get it back to pre-rack replacement without replacing bushing in the lower control arms.

The upper control arms are a simple replacement.

[Dr_Snooz]

The best thing you can do is learn to do your own wrenching. Get a basic tool kit, buy a manual (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=87+honda+accord+shop+manual&_sacat=0&_odkw=89+honda+accord+manual&_osacat=0&_from=R40) (the silver Honda manual, not any other) and start by doing your own oil changes and move up from there. If you don't want to work on it yourself, then find a mechanic you trust and do what he tells you. The front upper control arms are a common failure item on these cars and will cause the symptoms you describe. It's impossible to do an accurate alignment if they are bad and any reputable shop will refuse the repair until they are fixed. Also, your rack will last a lot longer if you use Honda fluid consistently.

[POS carb]

He may have left something loose or the problem could be unrelated. jack up the car and shake the wheels around, look for play, listen for clicks or creaks. The rack bushings may also be toast, they are difficult to find replacements

[HondaG]

You guys are terrific. Thanks for pointing things out.
@nswst8......I just re-read my post. My post sounds like the rack failure happened after the replacement was installed. Actually, when I bought the car from that mechanic two weeks ago it was the original rack that failed. Then it was replaced with the one I was talking about....this is when it started feeling jiggly.
The car rode great wiith the original rack in it, until it went south.....a week after I got it. Geez. :sad2::sad2:
I just checked my ps fluid and its NOT clear....its reddish....so now I'm thinking he either put the wrong fluid in it (not Honda) or it mixed with whatever was already in the replacement rack.
Sooooo, now when I get the car on the lift for the other stuff (upper control arms etc) I will have to flush the ps system right? And put in Honda fluid!
All of you guys....thanks for helping out....keep it coming. :-)
This car is so nice I just want to do it all the right way and minimize headaches.

[nswst8]

STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You must replace that power steering fluid immediately. Honda power steering fluid is "CLEAR" not redish. The system has not been flushed. That rack will "FAIL" if you continue to drive it. Damage is being done everytime you drive it.

Goto Home depot and get some 3/8" clear vinyl tubing in the plumbing section.

Again, your rack will fail with that ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) in your power steering system!

Not sure if you have a Oreilly's autoparts store in your area but that is the Honda fluid that I use.

[HondaG]

I'm going to get on it ASAP. Going to head over to Honda tomorrow and pick some up.
The screwed up thing is that I ask that mechanic if he wanted me to get the Honda fluid for him and he said he had it. I had no reason not to believe him at the time as his shop works on honda, acura, benz, bentley, maserati, toyota etc. You would think they know right? Geez.
Thanks for telling me how critical it is.
Now I'm starting to wonder if they put non honda fluid in it before and the original rack got screwed up because of it and all of this could have been avoided from the start.
Now I can see how a perfectly good Honda can get screwed up by not doing just the simple stuff.......like putting in the right fluids etc. It's all so simple and can be avoided.
Now you got me wondering about my tranny fluid too. Geez :-/

[HondaG]

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/Deep30hz/IMAG0012.jpg

[HondaG]

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/Deep30hz/IMAG0013.jpg

[HondaG]

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/Deep30hz/IMAG0015.jpg

[HondaG]

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/Deep30hz/IMAG0014.jpg

[HondaG]

http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt197/Deep30hz/IMAG0016.jpg
Thought I'd post some pix. As you can see its in good shape. The funny thing is I was just looking for any old cheap car just to commute back and forth to work. Everything I was looking at was bad. I stumbled on this at that repair shop as he was selling it for a woman who could not drive anymore. She was the second owner since 1989. I think I did good. I wasn't really looking for a Honda either. Now I'm hooked and want to maintain and get it running perfect as possible. I'm now a Honda 3geez fan :-)

[Dr_Snooz]

The screwed up thing is that I ask that mechanic if he wanted me to get the Honda fluid for him and he said he had it. I had no reason not to believe him at the time as his shop works on honda, acura, benz, bentley, maserati, toyota etc. You would think they know right? Geez.

This is why you want to move "learning to do my own wrenching" to the top of your bucket list. The shop will always break your heart, especially when the car is older. You have a beautiful car and you want it to stay that way.

@nswst8, I remember you going through a lot of racks a while back. Did you ever have any Honda fluid at all in the racks that went bad? I've never been clear whether it's having the wrong fluid in the rack or mixing the fluids that causes seal failure.

[HondaG]

Thanks for all the help.
I was wondering if that "turkey baster" method of flushing the ps system would work just as well as the method from the manual. Seems like two different ways to get the same outcome?

[nswst8]

This is why you want to move "learning to do my own wrenching" to the top of your bucket list. The shop will always break your heart, especially when the car is older. You have a beautiful car and you want it to stay that way.

@nswst8, I remember you going through a lot of racks a while back. Did you ever have any Honda fluid at all in the racks that went bad? I've never been clear whether it's having the wrong fluid in the rack or mixing the fluids that causes seal failure.

The problem was not completely flushing the system. The solution was running the engine to flush the system.

[nswst8]

Thanks for all the help.
I was wondering if that "turkey baster" method of flushing the ps system would work just as well as the method from the manual. Seems like two different ways to get the same outcome?

"Nope" The car must be running so that the P/S pump can fulling discharge the fluid from the rack. You must disconnect the top fluid discharge line at the reservoir. It is really very simple.

You really don't need to jack up the front of the vehicle, it just makes turning the steering wheel easier.

You can use any type of catch container to capture the old fluid. A 3/8 vinyl hose works great. It fits right into the discharge hose. So that you can direct it into a catch container.

The fluids are not compatible, it's like oil and water. they don't mix and create alot of problems.

My racks failed in a matter of days until I used the discribed method. I can change a rack in these cars in about 2 hours now.

[nswst8]

With a 80,000 mile accord that car will last you another 10 years with just regular maintenance.

[HondaG]

You guys don't realize how helpful you are. Gonna head to home depot later. Then over to Honda for the fluid.
I'm at work today and I've been asking various mechanics at shops.......just for the fun of it.......about using Honda ps fluid. Three so far said it makes no difference. That is scarry! Geez!

[Dr_Snooz]

Three so far said it makes no difference. That is scarry! Geez!

Our experience here is that the wrong fluid will cause seal leaks.

[nswst8]

I have owned this 89 accord since 1994, the only reason I changed out the original rack was because of a small leak in the original rack. I will tell you after the number of racks that I put in it in this past year 1 a year ago and the other 3 in a three week period. It is because of the wrong fluid that these racks fail.

They must be flushed correctly. Engine running, fully left and right turning of the steering wheel so that the P/S pump can push out all the fluid.

[import racer]

Nice looking car man,I always buy the Bardall stuff for honda's only and works great.

[Vanilla Sky]

Don't use the Napa Honda fluid. It kills racks, too. Stay away from anything with a strong solvent smell.

[Dr_Snooz]

Napa's crap strikes again.

Where are we buying our parts from now guys?

[MessyHonda]

I been using Acura OEM fluid with no leaks. its the same as Honda fluid

[Vanilla Sky]

A little knowledge goes a long way. Any my own personal junkyard. Serious about the junkyard.

[POS carb]

just buy the fluid from Honda or Acura dealer. It's about $9 a bottle but if the job is done right the fluid should last you 10 years, not a bad investment. you only save $15 or $20 by going with the aftermarket crap.
A new rack is $200 plus labor.

[nswst8]

Napa's crap strikes again.

Where are we buying our parts from now guys?

Kinda funny, I have a Napa rebadged A1 cardone rack in the accord now and it is holding well thus far. They said that they rebuilt it but kinda funny that the number matches to A1 cardone.

[Vanilla Sky]

I think this is an isolated issue with the Napa branded Honda power steering fluid, not everything that comes from Napa.

[Dr_Snooz]

Well, I can't speak for you, but Napa has been selling me turds consistently for the last several years. I'm done with them. I'll be buying as much as I can from the dealer and selecting carefully online when I can't.

[Vanilla Sky]

I shop online mostly. I'll check the dealerships, but there are some things the aftermarket does better than the factory. Not using Honda as an example, but look at early Jeep Liberties with bad ball joints. The fix for that issue is to switch to a Moog ball joint, leaving the overpriced one at the dealership.

[Dr_Snooz]

The worst part is that our Honda dealers always charge 6x as much as their parts are actually worth. It sucks that the aftermarket is so broken that it's driving us back to the stealerships.

[88Accord-DX]

The best way to flush the system is remove the power steering return hose, plug the reservoir outlet side with a hose that will fit over it & bolt in it to keep fluid blocked..
Drop the hose you pulled from the reservoir down in a drain pain. Fill the pump with fresh Honda approved P/S fluid.. With the engine off, turn the steering wheel back & forth to lock to lock position 15-20 times. Have someone keep an eye on the fluid level. You will have to repeat filling fluid & turning steering wheel till it's clean..I typically have the front wheels off the ground doing the flush & checking the front end out..SO get the front end off the ground & rock the wheel back & forth & pry around with a pry bar under the wheel for lose parts. (at least tell the shop) Might consider saving money & fix your front end yourself.

[Dr_Snooz]

Also be aware the the fluid will come out of the hose at high velocity. Make sure you have your drain line fitted tightly to the return hose and secured to the drain bucket. If not, your neighbor will come out of his house and wonder why you're feverishly washing his car for him. Ask me how I know this...

[88Accord-DX]

Also be aware the the fluid will come out of the hose at high velocity. Make sure you have your drain line fitted tightly to the return hose and secured to the drain bucket. If not, your neighbor will come out of his house and wonder why you're feverishly washing his car for him. Ask me how I know this...
I high lighted the previous post so there is no confusion now. :)

[Dr_Snooz]

Sorry, I thought you were recapping the method in the manual. In that one, you do it all with the motor running. Doesn't take long, but can make a real mess if you don't have the drain hose secured well.

[HondaG]

Hey guys. Well after a hectic weekend and week I was finally able to flush out the ps fluid. Replaced with Honda fluid from the dealer. A mechanic at my job that knows Hondas helped me. I have to say that on the ride home which is only 20 miles I do notice that the steering feels a bit more effortless. I don't think I'm imagining things. Lol

[import racer]

Well Acura is made by Honda so it should be the same.

[nswst8]

Hey guys. Well after a hectic weekend and week I was finally able to flush out the ps fluid. Replaced with Honda fluid from the dealer. A mechanic at my job that knows Hondas helped me. I have to say that on the ride home which is only 20 miles I do notice that the steering feels a bit more effortless. I don't think I'm imagining things. Lol

No, you are not imagining the better steering response. Really easy procedure, wasn't it.

[HondaG]

Yup. Was very easy. Until I did it I didn't think it would be that easy. I'm.so glad its done. I was getting worried.

[2drSE-i]

The screwed up thing is that I ask that mechanic if he wanted me to get the Honda fluid for him and he said he had it. I had no reason not to believe him at the time as his shop works on honda, acura, benz, bentley, maserati, toyota etc. You would think they know right? Geez.


Far, far too many mechanics regard ATF as "The same thing" as PS fluid. NOT THE CASE. I've gone through a couple of racks because a friend of mine is an ASE certified mechanic and dumped ATF in the rack. Nothing but the real deal will keep these things working.

As for NAPA vs Other auto parts stores, it doesn't really matter. It's all the same junk. Even some of the Honda stuff sucks now too. It's just cheap manufacturing catching up with us now. I go into any repair on my car as temporary, and I make sure to take notes because chances are, I'll be doing it again 2-6 months later.