Compression test results-input needed

[MrSamson]

Hey,

I have a manual 1988 Honda accord.

Burning blue smoke at startup for 1st 5 minutes when it sits over night. Can be VERY hard to start however once it gets warmed up it runs like a champ.

I did a compression test last night and all 4 pistons at 122 PSI.

I really think I simply have a head rebuild needed, and specidfically valve seals are to blame.

What is the low-end tolerance for compression on these? I apologize but I cannot find this online or in HELMS (although I may have missed it in there).

Any idea on compression low-end tolerances?

Also, I am willing to rebuild head,but cool to bottom end rebuild, in that case I would go with repower or part with car.

Any advice on zeroing in on the health of the piston rings?

Thanks!

[gfrg88]

Honestly, just drive it and keep up on everything. I think it will be fine for a while. All my A20s have never seen anything above 130...

[Dr_Snooz]

Minimum compression is 135 per the manual.

[g.frost]

Did you have the throttle wide open for the test? How many miles on the engine?

[Hauntd ca3]

was that a hot compression test at wot?
cold engine and no throttle will screw up a diagnosis

[88Accord-DX]

For good compression results, get the engine to operating temp, disable the fuel pump, & make sure the battery is good. When them conditions are met, next is a leak down test. A running compression helps also. :)

[MrSamson]

Thanks all.

210k on engine.

Engine was hot, but I did forget WOT.

I will keep driving it and honestly I could very well die before it dies in big picture. Car is a little special because it is old school sedan comp'd to my rude 97 Prelude SH. Plus it has 2 barrel progressive weber carb MOD....a mod I followed on here and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT.

PLUS I gave it Rustoleum roller paint job and its rat rodder trick.

Late.

[Dr_Snooz]

Okay, now we need PICS!

[elpuma]

Yes pics indeed. I've been curious to see what a 3geez rat rod would look like.

[greentee76]

How much oil are you using?
Mine did this when I first bought it. It would smoke until it kicked down off high idle. After that the smoke was hardly noticeable. Had good compression too. Ended up putting in a reringed engine and opened the old one for fun and found some pretty badly scoured pistons. That old engine was also using copious amounts of oil.
Good luck!

Oh yeah.... Pic would be cool.

[gfrg88]

piiiics!!!! :D

[g.frost]

Blue smoke at startup is usually valve seals. Sounds like yours are getting really bad and may be too late to soften and re-condition with a 'high mileage' or group V oil:

http://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78859

...but if your plan is to do nothing but keep driving it, at least give this a try on your next oil change.

[MrSamson]

I really don't think I am burning oil much other then at start.

I really would like to fix this, I just would like to be limited to the head and not mess with bottom end.

I need to figure out how to post pics. It is one of those situations where I bought the car for $500 and did quite a bit of work so a little attached.

We shall see.

[2geeSEi]

I replaced my valve seals without pulling the head.

[MrSamson]

Lets see if this works -

Prepped for surgery -

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z94/MrSamsonphotos/IMG_1047.jpg

Weber carb install -

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z94/MrSamsonphotos/SDC11301.jpg

I like this one - unfortunately I was repainting the center cap on Accord in reflection -

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z94/MrSamsonphotos/IMG_1032.jpg

88 Accord with 97 Prelude SH -

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z94/MrSamsonphotos/IMG_0861.jpg

I will try to find some of the pics I took of before/after roller paint job. I did not paint the door jams, trunk, etc - but looks legit with doors, hood, trunk closed. That is basically the 'rat rod' look I was referring to on top of Weber carb. Beyond that though - pretty much stock.

Seriously - thanks for all the input here and I continue to wrestle with this one. I serviced the head on the Preludy myself so single OHC and half the damn valves (I think) seems very doable to me. There is a part of me that really, really wants to pull whole motor and rebuild but I dont know much about repower options but my point is I think these cars and rebuilds may not make sense at a certain price point....I am just milling all of this through my mind. I might just pull the whole phucking thing...not sure.

I would service without removing head but I want to clean out intake, replace head gasket (weeping oil), install block heater......etc, etc, etc.

~Peace~

[Dr_Snooz]

The car looks clean and straight to me. It would be a pity to scrap it. Double-wishbone suspension of the caliber in the 3g is hard to find in a production car and you seem to like it well enough to be torn. I'm not sure how you define whether a car project is "worth it." If you're honest, putting a lot of money into any car is ridiculous. They all depreciate to scrap value and go to the crusher in the end. Even the gullwing Mercedes' being stored in climate controlled warehouses will eventually return to the dust. If you're looking for a good restoration candidate, I think that right now is the best time to be picking these cars up and restoring them. They were enormously popular in their day and won all kinds of awards. They blow away new cars in terms of handling and their gas mileage is very respectable. They are about as cheap as they are ever going to be too. The Japanese econoboxes from the '70s and '80s are just now being recognized by collectors and enthusiasts and there are a lot of people restoring and modifying them. If you're looking for ways to increase power, this is THE place to learn. Nobody knows these cars like we do. Aftermarket support is picking back up again, so it's the perfect time to do a project.

In short, you have a great platform in your car, a great resource in this board and you're doing it at the perfect time. Why wouldn't you?

[MrSamson]

The car looks clean and straight to me. It would be a pity to scrap it. Double-wishbone suspension of the caliber in the 3g is hard to find in a production car and you seem to like it well enough to be torn. I'm not sure how you define whether a car project is "worth it." If you're honest, putting a lot of money into any car is ridiculous. They all depreciate to scrap value and go to the crusher in the end. Even the gullwing Mercedes' being stored in climate controlled warehouses will eventually return to the dust. If you're looking for a good restoration candidate, I think that right now is the best time to be picking these cars up and restoring them. They were enormously popular in their day and won all kinds of awards. They blow away new cars in terms of handling and their gas mileage is very respectable. They are about as cheap as they are ever going to be too. The Japanese econoboxes from the '70s and '80s are just now being recognized by collectors and enthusiasts and there are a lot of people restoring and modifying them. If you're looking for ways to increase power, this is THE place to learn. Nobody knows these cars like we do. Aftermarket support is picking back up again, so it's the perfect time to do a project.

In short, you have a great platform in your car, a great resource in this board and you're doing it at the perfect time. Why wouldn't you?

Thanks for kind words and encouragement.

I think I would like to rebuild and stay w/weber carb. I totally agree with you in that this car was ahead of its time in mass production econobox comps. Totally relevant today with gas mileage and price of a new, similar car.

Not to mention emissions here ends at 25 years and older. So, this car has that value too to me anyway.

My first tasks tho is to remove AC relevant stuff and pump in engine compartment as well as cruise control unit. Those two things are history and not functional anyway and will give me just a little more room in engine bay.

Should be fun and I am hoping to start surgery before thanksgiving.

Thanks

[2oodoor]

Hard start after its warmed up? Is the carb leaking gas during this time, internaly?
Kind of sounds like idle set up not quite there too.
Did you tweek the ignition timing some after the weber install?

[Dr_Snooz]

Should be fun and I am hoping to start surgery before thanksgiving.

Thanks

Baby 3geezus is smiling. :D

[MrSamson]

Hard start after its warmed up? Is the carb leaking gas during this time, internaly?
Kind of sounds like idle set up not quite there too.
Did you tweek the ignition timing some after the weber install?

I did tweak with ignition timing. It seemed best in past to do timing 2x a year w/seasons change, at least for me.

I don't know how I would know if carb leaking gas internally?

[2ndGenGuy]

If it's hard to start when warm, then your choke might be closing too soon. Mine does this, and it floods out the car. Try holding the gas pedal wide open when you are cranking, and let it off right away. If it starts quickly that way, then it's probably the choke.

[Dr_Snooz]

I had a terrific hard start problem on my truck. Turned out the heat from the engine rises and boils the gas out of the carb and into the intake, flooding it out. If you're missing any heat shields, get them back.

[MrSamson]

If it's hard to start when warm, then your choke might be closing too soon. Mine does this, and it floods out the car. Try holding the gas pedal wide open when you are cranking, and let it off right away. If it starts quickly that way, then it's probably the choke.

It really is not nor has been an issue starting the accord when already warmed up. Typically starts rit up when hot.

[88Accord-DX]

I replaced my valve seals without pulling the head. that is possible with compressed air in each cylinder or each at TDC. Other than that,.your wasting your time without a leak down test to see what kind of shape your rings & valve seats are in...
Nice weber swap. :)

[2geeSEi]

My compression was 155 psi across the board, and very little leakage with the compressed air at TDC, plus the car runs great, so I didn't see a big need to pull the head. Just wanted to get rid of the blue smoke at start-up. BTW, all that was left of the exhaust valve seals was the little metal rings that go around them, no rubber left at all.

[MrSamson]

that is possible with compressed air in each cylinder or each at TDC. Other than that,.your wasting your time without a leak down test to see what kind of shape your rings & valve seats are in...
Nice weber swap. :)

Oh the infamous leak-down test. I agree, I just need to call around and go somewhere different then I did last time. I was not impressed with lack of info. From last place and THANK GOD I did not actually have them perform the recommended services that test came with from them.

I will look into this thanks.

[Oldblueaccord]

One thing to add is if your timing belt is off a tooth or more it will effect these numbers.


wp

[MrSamson]

Timing belt PROBABLY installed correctly, but your point is appreciated and good advice IMO.

Question for engine pulling gurus:

I have a two car garage and would like to remove engine....and then my assumption (and question) is:

After engine removed it appears to me that I COULD put wheels back on, lower car to ground and push body back outside.

This would GREATLY create more room in my garage.

Am I correct in this?

My goal is to get real serious @ Xmas holiday break next month when I have 2 weeks off. Probably wont be able to flip but should certainly be in drivers seat....possibly getting to doorstep of working with machinist if needed.

Am I correct? Probably pretty newbie-ish question but if I can get the car body out of garage for majority of project....this is a much easier project to manage and I do NOT want to park the prelude outside.

Thanks guys! I LOVE this forum.

[Dr_Snooz]

Shouldn't be a problem. You'll have to pop the ball joints to pull the axles, but you can reassemble them finger tight to push it around. Worst case, you can move it with a floor jack. Assuming you have one.

Why not just pull it in the driveway?

[MrSamson]

Shouldn't be a problem. You'll have to pop the ball joints to pull the axles, but you can reassemble them finger tight to push it around. Worst case, you can move it with a floor jack. Assuming you have one.

Why not just pull it in the driveway?

If it were summer I would pull outside garage. My driveway beyond garage slab is fairly cracked and moving car with jack could be a challenge. Plus, I am a wuss when it comes to working on cars and cold weather...I fly a desk for a living!

I do indeed have a jack and I think I got what you are saying and I should be able to take my time without painfully limiting garage floor space. Cool.

I am starting to get excited about this! Thanks.

[Dr_Snooz]

Have a blast. We're here if you get stuck.

[MrSamson]

Removed AC unit and the sending line (i think-insulated one in the way of EVERYTHING) to firewall.

:ugh2:

Most noticeable difference to me so far is startup seems to require less torque, or there is less resistance to starting torque applied, whatever your perspective definitely notice at startup.

The weight of that compressor and mounting bracket is not necessarily something to ignore regarding efficiency, either.

Should I remove any AC relevant fuses, block line at firewall entering cab, anything else not to forget to button it up, etc?

Fun project. Highly recommend so far if AC is broke and you are not interested in keeping like me.

I had a MAJOR setback when a rear caliper exploded on my prelude that took me a while to get motivated to fix AND I joined a rock band in PDX.

I am proud to say the 1988 Accord, although a little iffy at cold startup, has saved my bacon again with mini-tank like reliability.

Are there any things I should be aware of if I wanted to make more engine compartment space and remove cruise control? This is history in my car with weber install and IDC!

If people have a good write-up/review link re: this that totally works.

Still eyeing head job in future, just juggling things called life ya know!

Long live 3rd gen Accords!

Thanks,

MrS.

[MrSamson]

I do have one question re: AC removal....

The compressor wire that went to the fan on radiator on drivers side-does that need to be reconnected or grounded or anything or is that fan ok?

Thanks