Clutch

[honda]

How long (how many miles) does a clutch last?

I have a 97 Civic LX that just started having problems with the clutch. On Saturday, I noticed the clutch started squealing when I pressed on it, and I noticed a burning smell. I checked the fluid, it seems to be the correct level.

On Sunday afternoon (today), not only did the clutch squeal when I pressed on it, the power kept going off too, when I would try to start the car after being stopped in neutral. I noticed the idle was very low when the car was stopped, like about 750. The car would turn off, I would restart it, and then put it into gear. Then in the evening, when it's cooler, the clutch would still squeal, and there was some burning smell, but the power was ok, it did not keep going off like in the afternoon. The idle was higher in the evening too.

Can someone tell me how the clutch and power/battery are related, and why the power would keep going off? And does someone know what exactly about the clutch I need to repair? I know there are two cylinders, the disk, and the cable, and I was wondering does all of it get replaced when you repair the clutch (I've seen "clutch kits" etc). And how long will the car drive in this condition? I want to get it repaired asap, but I know this is a costly repair.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks.

[HLW]

There is no direct link between the clutch and battery/electrical power.

You stated that the engine dies when you disengaged the clutch only in the afternoon. Did you have the AC on in the afternoon? If you did, you could have issues in the AC clutch (its in the pulley on the compressor and engages to turn the compressor) or compressor. If the AC clutch coil draws too much power or if the alternator is weak, it could keep the engine form idling. If the compressor is not properly lubed it could require more power from the engine than it has at idle.

On a hydraulic clutch, if the fluid is low, the clutch will not fully disengage and you will have problems shifting especially when stopped. The noise from the clutch could be for the through-out bearing or it could be from the rivets in the clutch plate scraping the flywheel and pressure plate. If it is from the rivets on the clutch plate, you do not want to drive the car until it is fixed and you will need to replace the flywheel, clutch plate and clutch pressure plate. You should also replace the through-out bearing and if your card has a pilot bearing or bushing, replace that too. You might be OK with resurfacing the flywheel if it is not too damaged or to thin.

The burning is probably from the clutch slipping which means you need to replace the clutch now.

[honda]

Ok. Thanks. How many miles will a clutch typically be good for?

[honda]

I spoke to a mechanic, and they said they might also want to replace the master and slave cylinders. Is that necessary, or are they just trying to charge me more for the repair?

[honda]

On a different question, does anyone know how important it is to use only genuine Honda coolant in the cooling system? That's what the owner's manual calls for, but if you wanted to flush the cooling system, that would get expensive on refilling the system (but maybe worth it?), since each container is like $19.

[2geeSEi]

I spoke to a mechanic, and they said they might also want to replace the master and slave cylinders. Is that necessary, or are they just trying to charge me more for the repair?

Your clutch should have a cable, not a master and slave cylinder.

[honda]

The mechanic said they stopped using cables on Civics in 1991. Mine is a 1997.

[2geeSEi]

Sorry, I missed that part. I assumed that we were talking about a 3gee.

[HLW]

How long the clutch lasts depends on how you drive the car. Most recommendations are to change the clutch every 65-85 thousand miles, but it depends more on how you drive and how much of your driving is city versus highway for how long the clutch will last.

When it needs immediate replacement it will start slipping or it will not engage or disengage smoothly (chatter, clunck, Etc.).

The clutch master and slave cylinders usually do not need to be replaced. When they do it is because they are leaking externally or internally. an internal leak will give a spongy feel even after bleeding the system. The hydraulic clutch works and feels similar to the brakes except you disengage the clutch when you press the pedal. If the clutch master and slave cylinder are not gunky on the outside and the pedal feels fine, it should be flushed every couple of years just like your breaks.

If the clutch pedal feels spongy after the clutch is changed and the hydraulic clutch is flushed and bled, you probably need to change the clutch master or clutch slave cylinder. Usually the clutch Master will leak into the passenger compartment and leave the carpet wet by the pedals when it needs to be replaced.

Most auto parts stores will have the right coolant if you tell them the make model and year of the car, they can tell you what you need and if they have it.

[honda]

So you can flush the fluid out of the master and slave cylinders to clean them? Can they easily replace either the master or slave cylinder after putting in the new clutch, or does it have to be done at the same time? (in other words, is there significant labor involved in getting to the cylinders where you would be re-doing work if you put in the clutch first, and then checked the cylinders to see if they needed to be replaced?)

I think this mechanic may be of the kind who just replaces everything rather than replacing just what's needed.

[Dr_Snooz]

Sounds to me like the clutch needs to be adjusted. Are you having any trouble getting into gear at stops?

[88Accord-DX]

As old as your civic is, at least replace the slave cylinder on that clutch job & see how it does.

[honda]

Adjusting the clutch? What does that involve? A couple of people I talked to said the squealing sound/burning smell sounded like the throw-out bearing was the problem. Would a clutch adjustment problem explain this sound and smell? I've never heard of clutch adjustment, only repairing/replacing the clutch.

Regarding the cylinders, apparently those can be replaced after the clutch is put back, so they can see how well the new clutch works with the existing cylinders before replacing the cylinders.

What do you think of using mechanics that are not ASE certified? I got a referral to a mechanic who has lots of experience, but is not ASE certified. This mechanic says he does not routinely resurface the flywheel, only occasionally. He says most of the time the flywheel does not really need to be resurfaced. Is that correct, or is he being too frugal? (he doesn't have a machine shop himself).

[cygnus x-1]

What do you think of using mechanics that are not ASE certified? I got a referral to a mechanic who has lots of experience, but is not ASE certified. This mechanic says he does not routinely resurface the flywheel, only occasionally. He says most of the time the flywheel does not really need to be resurfaced. Is that correct, or is he being too frugal? (he doesn't have a machine shop himself).


I think I would trust experience more than ASE certification. Experience is the best teacher.

For the flywheel, as long as it's flat and not scored up or anything you can get away without resurfacing. At the very least you want to use some sand paper on it to clean up the surface if it's glazed. Resurfacing is relatively cheap though so if there's any question you might as well just do it.


C|

[2geeSEi]

Always either resurface or replace the flywheel! You can get a new one for like $50, and some places have an exchange for reconditioned ones for like $35. Your clutch will work much smoother and last longer. It is cheap insurance to not have to do the job again. ASE doesn't mean much, but then again, I do my own work. I don't trust most shops to touch my car.

[Dr_Snooz]

ASE is a written test with lots of trick questions. You have to know something to pass it, but not necessarily how to do a good job. I would choose a good reputation over it.

Not resurfacing the flywheel is a risk. If the surface is uneven, you will get pulsation as you release the clutch. If your clutch action is smooth now, then you can probably get away with letting it go.

I don't know how to adjust the clutch on a Civic, but a Google search on it could save you several hundred dollars. Are you having trouble getting the trans into gear at dead stops?

[import racer]

When I changed mine from auto to manual I took the trans off the motor and cleaned up the flywheel with my random orbital sander .Just cleaned off the surface rust and make it smooth.I have had no problems with it since .

[88Accord-DX]

ASE tests are tricky & agree, damn recerts after 5 years. Lol. Regards to flywheel, you need it checked with a straight edge for warped surface & about 150 grit sandpaper should be fine to rough it up with no cracks & any significant groves. Use locktite on the pressure plate bolts & flywheel. Torque in right sequence & to specs. replace the pilot bearing. The hydraulic end can be addressed later.

[HLW]

Hydraulic clutches are self adjusting. The problems arise when you are low on fluid, the fluid is contaminated or there are air bubbles in the system, the same as the hydraulic brakes in all cars.

Changing the clutch master cylinder is similar to changing the brake master cylinder. The clutch slave depends on where it is. From what your mechanic told you, the slave cylinder is outside the bell housing, but on some cars it is inside which would require removing the transmission to replace.

Resurfacing the flywheel starts with making sure it is not warped. A warped flywheel can kill your clutch faster then normal and will cause a pulsing in the clutch pedal when you press it. The next part of resurfacing is making sure it is not too thin to have a little bit removed from the surface and still handle the stresses applied to it during normal operation. The last part is removing a little bit of the surface to make it perfectly flat and give it a slightly roughened surface. This lets the clutch work at its best. It is basically the same as turning your brake rotors and drums and is done for the same reason. The difference is the extra work needed to get to the flywheel which requires removing the clutch. If everything on the flywheel is good, using a disc sander on the flywheel until it has an even surface and a good crosshatch pattern is basically the same as being resurfaced on a specialized machine.

ASE certified mechanics have proven via a test that they are competent, but experience teaches more than is needed to pass a test. Even experienced ASE certified mechanics can do poor work. I would look more to the mechanic's reputation. The reputation tells you what other customers feel about the quality of work and how the mechanic treated them.

[honda]

A lot of good comments. Thanks.

[Dr_Snooz]

On a hydraulic clutch, the adjustment is often done at the pedal linkage. Again, not sure about a Civic, but I did a '97 Del Sol at the pedal linkage. It's a free check that's well worth doing if the alternative is hundreds of dollars in clutch repairs.

[AccordB20A]

civic has it on the pedal. not that its usually needed

[HLW]

On a hydraulic clutch, the adjustment is often done at the pedal linkage. Again, not sure about a Civic, but I did a '97 Del Sol at the pedal linkage. It's a free check that's well worth doing if the alternative is hundreds of dollars in clutch repairs.

Snooz, that is the pedal adjustment. That only needs to be adjusted when the clutch master cylinder is replaced or the adjustment loosened up.

[honda]

Hmm. Ok. Would the pedal/clutch adjustment cause a squealing sound when you press on it? That's the main thing it's doing.

[HLW]

Hmm. Ok. Would the pedal/clutch adjustment cause a squealing sound when you press on it? That's the main thing it's doing.

No, the squealing when pressing the pedal will be either a worn through-out/release bearing or a worn clutch disc. Either way it is time to replace your clutch.

[2geeSEi]

Most likely bad release bearing.

[ecogabriel]

I replaced my clutch in my 93 Civic DX, so I suspect they are quite similar. I believe your car uses the same clutch kit than mine. They are cheap - a Daikin set can be had for little over $100 (I got mine here,
http://www.clutchcityonline.com/

If you are going to do the job, do it right so you won't pay twice or disassemble the car twice (don't ask me how I know that). Except for slave and master cylinders, I replaced the rest including the clutch fork since mine had some little cracks on the pivot point inside the transmission case.
Another place to get parts - Flywheels and the cylinders - is rockauto.com; they also sell clutch kits. I ended up replacing my master cylinder recently - it started leaking at 225K miles.
Since you are at it, it would be a good idea to replace the rear crank seal. it may add 20-30 bucks to the job but it is extra insurance that an oil leak would not come from a worn seal

[Dr_Snooz]

Snooz, that is the pedal adjustment. That only needs to be adjusted when the clutch master cylinder is replaced or the adjustment loosened up.

It adjusts the release point on the clutch. Pedal height is a separate adjustment. It sounds to me like the OP's clutch isn't releasing fully when he presses the pedal down. Hence, the squealing and smell. If it's hard to get in gear, then I'll feel very confident that it's an adjustment issue. He can adjust the clutch for free before spending a lot of money and taking the car down for repairs. It's not my car, obviously, but if it were, I'd be checking the clutch adjustment.

[ecogabriel]

It adjusts the release point on the clutch. Pedal height is a separate adjustment. It sounds to me like the OP's clutch isn't releasing fully when he presses the pedal down. Hence, the squealing and smell. If it's hard to get in gear, then I'll feel very confident that it's an adjustment issue. He can adjust the clutch for free before spending a lot of money and taking the car down for repairs. It's not my car, obviously, but if it were, I'd be checking the clutch adjustment.

I remember adjusting free play when I replaced the master cylinder, but I cannot recall if the service manual says that it changes the release point of the clutch (the haynes "manual" says something like that).
Still, it does not hurt anything playing with the adjustment. I am still "disappointed" that Honda could not make the master cylinder to last more than 225k; I had to contort to reach the nuts to remove it

[HLW]

It adjusts the release point on the clutch. Pedal height is a separate adjustment. It sounds to me like the OP's clutch isn't releasing fully when he presses the pedal down. Hence, the squealing and smell. If it's hard to get in gear, then I'll feel very confident that it's an adjustment issue. He can adjust the clutch for free before spending a lot of money and taking the car down for repairs. It's not my car, obviously, but if it were, I'd be checking the clutch adjustment.

The only reason a hydraulic clutch will not fully disengage is the fluid is low. if it is low, you need to add fluid and bleed the system. I've had this happen on a different car with a hydraulic clutch. When the fluid is low, it is because of clutch wear or a leak in the hydraulic clutch.

[honda]

So I had the clutch replaced, and it seems ok. I checked the fluid level for the clutch, and they added new dot 3 brake fluid to over the maximum mark. Do I need to reduce the amount of clutch fluid they put in, or will excess fluid be ok? From what the mechanic told me, this is the fluid that goes into/fills the two clutch cylinders.

[lostscotiaguy]

I don't know if the newer models are the same as the old ones but if you have a hydraulic clutch there may be 2 adjustment points...the one for the pedal, where you can adjust the rod that comes off the master cylinder and is a pain in the a%% to adjust, and then there's the rod that goes between the clutch slave cylinder and the release fork. Like I said I don't know if yours has it but that's a LOT easier to adjust, and would account for difficult shifting and a clutch that doesn't fully disengage. Mine has messed up on me before and a little adjustment made a night and day difference....
I would assume (And as always, just my 2 cents) that if your pedal itself seems to go through it's full range of travel (I.E. It seems "Normal" and doesn't have any "flop" to it) but your clutch is still acting wonky then it's probably the other adjustable rod that needs tweaking. like I said though, i could just be talking outta my a%% as I don't know if Honda changed anything with their newer clutches...I would assume they haven't.

[lostscotiaguy]

A little excess fluid won't hurt, as long as it's not spilling out...brake fluid EATS paint super quickly.

[honda]

When they replaced the clutch, they said the transmission was a little noisy (mechanic said it was the bearings). I listened to it, and it was. Now a few days later, one week after the clutch repair, the transmission is becoming very noisy. How do I tell how much longer this transmission is going to last, and is there anything I can do to make it last longer? I also find it to be a little suspect that the transmission should suddenly become that much worse in the one week after they replaced the clutch. Is there anything that they might have done wrong to make the transmission go bad this quickly?

[2geeSEi]

They could have forgot to put oil back in it.

[HLW]

They could have forgot to put oil back in it.
+1

Remove the transmission's fill plug and use a finger to see if the oil is up to the threads for the fill plug. If it is not, add oil until it is.

[2oodoor]

R
They could have forgot to put oil back in it.

Amazing how often that happens undetected for who knows how long, on any clutch job. Some spills out and levels never replenished.

[honda]

It's been driven at least 600 miles since clutch was put in. Is adding transmission fluid now going to be able to stop the problem, or is the damage to the transmission like this going to persist now?

[Dr_Snooz]

Filling it is definitely going to slow the process, but it doesn't really matter at this point. If the trans needs oil, then you need to fill it pronto. It may still fail if you fill, but it's guaranteed to fail if you don't.

[honda]

I had the transmission fluid checked today by a mechanic, and he said it was full. The sound I'm hearing is kind of a whirring/chatter sound when I'm driving, louder than the "transmission bearing" sound the clutch repair mechanic mentioned to me. When the mechanic today checked the transmission fluid, he said he heard another sound, when he pressed on the clutch pedal, with the car not moving. He said he thought that was the throw-out bearing (from my new clutch that the clutch repair mechanics put in). The sound I'm hearing is when I'm driving, especially in the lower gears, and going uphill. I don't know if the clutch sound the mechanic is hearing when the car is not moving would explain the noise I'm hearing when I'm driving the car.

How do you know if your car is ok to drive if the transmission is going bad?

[Dr_Snooz]

Vids of sound.

[honda]

I don't have a vid of the sound that it's making. But whirring/chattering is how I would describe the sound I hear when I'm driving. And whirring is also the sound it makes when the clutch is pressed in, and the car not moving.

From reading about this type of problem, it seems that the noise I'm hearing might be the input shaft bearing, and that it might not have been aligned correctly when they put the clutch back together--as this link explains:

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120224153229AAvQDzu

[Vanilla Sky]

Moved to General from EFI Tech since this doesn't pertain to a 3rd gen, and it will get more exposure here.

Transmission alignment is a big deal, and a lot of mechanics take the fast, easy way of pulling the transmission to the block with bolts. This is a bad idea because it often leads to incorrect alignment. You want the transmission to be flush with the block before you even think about bolts. I've seen crushed dowel pins cause a misalignment, and it often goes undetected until either the clutch goes of the bearings in the transmission go.

[2geeSEi]

The only thing is that the input shaft doesn't turn with the clutch pushed in and the car not moving, so that can't be the noise you are hearing. In fact, when the car isn't moving, nothing in the trans is turning, only the flywheel, pressure plate, and throw-out bearing.

[Dr_Snooz]

Moved to General from EFI Tech since this doesn't pertain to a 3rd gen, and it will get more exposure here.

Transmission alignment is a big deal, and a lot of mechanics take the fast, easy way of pulling the transmission to the block with bolts. This is a bad idea because it often leads to incorrect alignment. You want the transmission to be flush with the block before you even think about bolts. I've seen crushed dowel pins cause a misalignment, and it often goes undetected until either the clutch goes of the bearings in the transmission go.

Good call. I got my trans alignment off once. The blasted thing made the most ungodly clattering and blew oil like a mofo. It was only off 1/16" max too.