Help! No spark!

[senor honda]

Help! No spark!
Driving last night, my 89 Accord just lost rpm like it was cut off. Towed it home.
Engine turns over, so it's not a starter or battery problem. I have the charger on
it right now.

Thought it might be lack of gas.
My after market clear filter at the carb, shows it is now getting gas..... after I wired in an auxiliary external pump. My stock pump might still be ok but maybe it's not getting the "engine is running" signal from the engine, so it cuts off.

Thought it might be "IGN 1 or IGN 2 fuses under hood.
All fuses under hood are good. I looked under the dash at fuses on the drivers side
but nothing appears to be relevant to the ignition. Is there one that I should specifically check?

Thought it might be the ign "on" key switch
so I turned the stock ign switch to "on" and even jumpered a wire just in case, straight from the battery positive to the positive side of the coil. I used a remote starter button to turn the engine over. Engine turns over but won't start and won't run. Won't start/run on starting fluid either.

Pulled a spark plug and held it against the engine block as I cranked the engine
over with the ignition key switch in the "on" position. There was no spark. Plug was clean,
dry, and not oily. Plug gap was .032"

Thought it might be the distributor inside terminals,
so cleaned off the electrical deposits/crud on the rotor's end and each of the four terminals which the rotor would use to transmit spark to the spark plug wires.

Thought it might be the two-male pronged "module" in the Hitachi distributor,
but compared with the readings on a brand new distributor with brand new module, the readings are about the same. Both wires were connected to the slide-on terminals.

There is something else that's black plastic about an inch square and labelled "OC-136A 25-0.47" and the first letter has two horizontal lines going side to side through the center space. I tested the one on the car and also
my spare one and the readings were about the same. Any idea what that is or what it does?

I'm using an MSD blaster 2 coil that has been working for over a year.
My test light shows that with ign "on"...... the wire to the positive side of the coil is 12Volt/hot
and the wires to the negative side of the coil is a ground.

Coil tests ok for continuity between positive and negative terminals so I presume there are no wires broken inside the coil. Testing from positive to center hole
of the coil and negative to center hole of the coil, the readings are about the same as my brand new spare one.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some electrical theory....
With a points-type distributor, when the points opened, it would send electricity from the
coil to the distributor and on to the spark plug wires.

What is the modern-day equivalent that sends electricity from the coil to the distributor?
Maybe that is worth my looking into.

Right now it started raining, so I took that as a psychic message from God that
I should come inside and ask for help.

Thanks in advance.-Bob

[zenapup]

That little black thing is the radio noise condenser, the service manual does however state that "The radio noise condenser is intended to reduce ignition noise; however, condenser failure may cause the engine to stop running. It gives this spec: Condenser capacity: 0.47 plus/minus 0.09 microfarads (uF). You need a condenser tester to test it properly, but my guess is the distributor or something else, i doubt the radio noise condenser is your problem. Hope this helps.

[senor honda]

Thanks for the info. At this point any info is better than no info.
At least that's one thing eliminated as a cause.-Bob

If I have a ground wire coming into the coil negative side and a battery wire coming into the coil
positive side, how do I check the coil? Anyone have thoughts on that?


That little black thing is the radio noise condenser, the service manual does however state that "The radio noise condenser is intended to reduce ignition noise; however, condenser failure may cause the engine to stop running. It gives this spec: Condenser capacity: 0.47 plus/minus 0.09 microfarads (uF). You need a condenser tester to test it properly, but my guess is the distributor or something else, i doubt the radio noise condenser is your problem. Hope this helps.

[Dr_Snooz]

The equivalent of points that you are looking for is called a pick-up coil and it's under the distributor cap. It's not unheard of for them to go bad and you've pretty much covered everything I would be looking at, so it would be worth having a look. I would hit up MSD for tips on testing the coil.

[Buzo]

Its really easy to test the pick up coil (points equivalent thing). Look at the tachometer while you are cranking the engine.
It must go to 200-300 RPM. If it stays at zero all the time then the pickup coil is not sending the pulses, therefore the coil will not have spark and the fuel pump will not work.

[senor honda]

You guys are great. I will do the RPM test that you suggested.
I had noticed the four-sided reluctor and the part to the side is called a "module" at the
auto parts store. When I tested it I checked continuity pin to pin, then swapped
probes, pin to pin, then tested distributor casing to each pin separately. That's how I knew
the readings were about the same on both modules.

The word module should start and end with dollar signs LOL
The reluctor as I call it, is roll-pinned in, on top of the pick up coil/module. If I knew how to get
the distributor apart it would be far cheaper to carry a spare module in the glove
compartment.

Getting it apart....
Below the vac advance, below the pickup coil, below the module, below the reluctor
is a metal plate held in with two screws at the edges. If I remove those screws and if
the plate lifts up, what do I do next to replace the module? Has anyone done this before?
-Bob



Its really easy to test the pick up coil (points equivalent thing). Look at the tachometer while you are cranking the engine.
It must go to 200-300 RPM. If it stays at zero all the time then the pickup coil is not sending the pulses, therefore the coil will not have spark and the fuel pump will not work.

[senor honda]

Adding to our group's knowledge...
What is a good way to tell if the pickup coil is bad? I am presuming the pick up
coil is the metal half circle that has the "ears" that almost touch the reluctor.
I see no wires going from the module to the pickup coil.

Any thoughts as to where I would place test probes?
Or the test procedure?
Or is the only way to to test is to use the Tach?-Bob

[senor honda]

Progress report: not a productive day. :(

Today I traced and diagrammed every wire associated with the coil,
distributor, module, radio noise suppressor condenser. I checked all the connectors for
tightness.

I was told that the way to test the coil pickup was to crank the engine, if the tach did not read
200-300 rpm's that I should replace the distributor. While cranking, the tach read zero. I replaced the distributor. The engine cranked up and ran for a few minutes until the fuel ran out of the fuel line. I will have another fuel pump tomorrow morning and wire it straight to a switch, so I can eliminate the requirement that the engine be running before the fuel pump works.

I tried starting the engine again. The tach showed no rpm's at all. That distributor cost me $179
and now it may have a dead coil pickup and sending no signal to run the fuel pump.
I wish I knew a way to test the coil pickup without installing the distributor. Any ideas?

It looks like what everyone told me works! But if i killed that distributor pickup coil in 5 minutes,
will it happen again? Help! I will have to spend $179 again, but if anyone has any further thoughts,
let me know, please.-Bob

[senor honda]

Progress report: not a productive day. :(

Today I traced and diagrammed every wire associated with the coil,
distributor, module, radio noise suppressor condenser. I checked all the connectors for
tightness.

I was told that the way to test the coil pickup was to crank the engine, if the tach did not read
200-300 rpm's that I should replace the distributor. While cranking, the tach read zero with the first distributor. I replaced the distributor. The engine cranked up and ran with the new distributor for a few minutes until the fuel ran out of the fuel line.

I will have another fuel pump tomorrow morning and wire it straight to a switch, so I can eliminate the requirement that the engine be running before the fuel pump works.

I tried starting the engine again. The tach showed no rpm's at all. That distributor cost me $179
and now it may have a dead coil pickup and sending no signal to run the fuel pump.
I wish I knew a way to test the coil pickup without installing the distributor. Any ideas?

It looks like what everyone told me works! But if i killed that distributor pickup coil in 5 minutes,
will it happen again? Help! I will have to spend $179 again, but if anyone has any further thoughts,
let me know, please.-Bob

[zenapup]

Well, do you currently have spark with the new distributor?

[senor honda]

I had spark for about 5 minutes.................. The engine ran for a few minutes until the fuel ran out of the fuel line. Then the engine stopped.

I tried starting the engine again. When cranking the engine the second time the tach showed no rpm's at all.
The engine does not run. I wish I knew a way to test the coil pickup without installing the distributor.

I wish I knew what has happened to cause the new distributor not to register any rpm's. Any ideas?


Well, do you currently have spark with the new distributor?

[zenapup]

But you checked for spark after the engine stopped running, right?

[zenapup]

Looking at the ETM, there are 2 2pin connectors going to the ignition coil. Both have a Blue wire and a Black/Yellow wire, to identify each I will use their numbers from the manual, you will need to figure out which is which by checking for continuity.
C134-Blue goes from the primary side of the coil to a splice which then goes to a. Tachometer b. A/C Delay Unit c. Cruise Control Unit, Fuel Pump Cutoff Relay, and the Emission Control Unit. The Blue wire on C134 should have 2.2K ohms resistance according to the manual. The Black/Yellow wire should have 12V with the ignition switch in Run or start and splices to the Radio Noise Condenser, and to the Ignition Coil at C134, and comes directly from the ignition switch. Check fuses 1 and 10 in the dash fuse box. Also check fuse 2 if the clock does not work or if any of the gauges or safety indicator are not working, as this fuse is the power fuse for the tachometer.
C181-Both go to the distributor along with another wire in a different connector that is the ground wire, and another black wire coming from the radio noise condenser

Hope this helps and I hope you solve the issue soon.

[Dr_Snooz]

The pick up coil looks like this.

http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=49972&imageurl=http%3A//www.rockauto.com/info/SMP/LX702_PRIMARY.jpg

I don't have a carbed car, so I can't tell you how to disassemble the distributor. However, if you haven't downloaded the shop manual yet, you should do so straightaway, (http://3geez.wiki-tv.com/Honda_service_manuals). There is a blow up tear down diagram on p. 24-17 of the '89 USDM manual. When I tore down my TEC distributor, there was a pin holding the cam coupling to the distributor. Remove the pin and coupling and the rotor shaft comes right out. Or at least, that's how I remember it working. It's been awhile.

What you are describing sounds a lot like an ICM failure. If you are having squirrely tach issues (I had the notorious tach hop on engine cranking when mine was going bad), then I would doubly suspect the ICM. It would be unusual for a 3g ICM to fail suddenly like this, but not out of the question. While the Honda manual is beyond excellent, it does not give any tests for the ICM. I'll confess that when I changed my ICM, I didn't test it. It was a Hail Mary that ended up working out well for me. I've searched and searched for a way to test them, but haven't really found anything yet. You can type "how to test an ignition control module" into Google and see if you can find something. I found this website, which might help, http://easyautodiagnostics.com/Ignition-Lookup/Honda/Year-Accord.html. It starts with the 1990 model year, but maybe you can reverse engineer something from it.

Before buying anything you should also test the coil, (p. 24-12). It might also be well to ohm your coil wire to make sure it isn't broken or something. Finally, make sure the timing belt isn't broken or near broken or loose or hopping teeth or something.

If you do end up figuring out a way to test the ICM, please write up a How-To for the rest of us.

[Buzo]

You said you have a MSD coil. Do you still have the OEM coil? I would recommend to put back the old coil, just for testing purposes.

If that MSD is bad, then it could have damaged your new distributor.

Of course you need to get a new dizzy before you try the old coil. Even a borrowed dizzy, it is just to figure out the cause of your failure.

[POS carb]

if the condenser is bad and shorting to ground just unplug it
With the key on and engine off you should have 12v to both terminals of the coil, if you want to check for a crank signal hook up an analog volt meter or low wattage bulb to the coil's negative terminal and to ground, it should oscillate/flash while cranking if the coil is getting a signal

[senor honda]

I bought another distributor today/Thursday, will install it Friday and return the bad one as defective and ask that they credit the charge back to my account.

I will download the info. Thanks everyone for the info of the sites.

I cannot say how long the fuel pump was primed.....don't know...the car ran until the fuel line was drained.
The coil is probably good. I was told that the coil test is to check for continuity from positive to negative....makes sense.....it can't build voltage if there is a break in the windings. With the key on and engine off I had 12v to both terminals of the coil. Thanks for the suggestion. I may look into other
ways of testing.

I took the pump that was in the car, put it under some gasoline and when hot wired, It pumped gas......but....but..... the fuel stream was a trickle.....18 months old/factory pump....and for all practical purposes...dead....LOL I have a clear fuel filter in the trunk above the pump, and the 18 month old pump
did not have enough "push" to fill it.
I was busy most of the day....but the replacement fuel pump which the a-parts store ordered to replace the one in the car was the wrong one..... LOL grrrr....
I returned it, coughed up the cash and bought a Mr gasket 95P, a look alike of a Holley and/or
a Trick-flow pump.....

Once this latest episode is over, I will be adding a second Mr Gasket 95P as a backup. It's worth the price of a tow truck. I have cooked a few switches in my time. I carry a few spares in the car and can swap them pretty quick. I will be adding in a relay and using ground to trip it to power the new pump. If anyone wants to share their wiring diagram and your plumbing diagram for two pumps, I'm willing to learn...and save some smidgen of my own brain power if I don't have to figure it out..... LOL

I have some sensors/lights to tell me if the pump is getting voltage....never had a problem until now.
The fuel pump LED is now not working...Hmmmm.
It's possible the Fuel pump was going to ground and was shorting out the dizzy. Sooo maybe
if the fuel pump killed the dizzy, separating pump and dizzy will stop it. The 95P wired through a switch and a relay will eliminate any possible contact between pump and dizzy. If the dizzy dies again, it will be from something else........as of tomorrow morning (now Friday) when I resume work.-Bob

Questions:
POScarb, What low wattage bulb do you recommend?

[POS carb]

What do you mean the fuel pump LED? Check the alternator fuse under the dash if you suspect the pump isn't getting power

For checking the coil I was thinking a low watt bulb like an instrument cluster bulb or an LED. You could use a sidemarker peanut bulb 168 192 etc.
If you get flashes while cranking you can probably eliminate the distributor/ignitor as the problem and move on
If it flashes but still no spark I'd suspect the coil is bad. If you are getting spark and still no fire pull the fuel hose off, put it in a jar or into the carb throat and prime the pump a few times by turning the key from Off to On a couple times, look for fuel rushing out. Sometimes you can hear the pump or see the vapors coming out of the end of the hose when you turn the key.
I'd stay away from those stupid mr gasket external pumps. They are noisy and unreliable in my opinion and not much cheaper than the correct replacement

[senor honda]

POScarb,
Thanks for the advice. I will make a test light, add some alligator clips, etc as you suggested for my electrical box. The car is running now and since I tested the coil in a previous post, I believe the coil to be good.

A clarification: Not actually an LED. For some time I have used lights as an on board diagnostic. Green for 12 Volts at the fuel pump, blue for 12 volts at the aftermarket fans, red for 12 volts at the driving lights. Radio Shack part #272-337A. Lets me know If I have a break in wiring or some other problem. Lights save wire-tracing time. I also have manual switches to cut something off or on if I have to. I made a panel to the left side of the instrument cluster to hold the lights and switches. This has worked for years and was not related to the fuel pump/distributor malfunction.

I have a clear fuel filter in the trunk close to the pump to tell if I have fuel pumping from the fuel pump. I have another clear fuel filter close to the carb to see if fuel is reaching the carb and I still test for fuel trickle or spurt as you suggested. I can also see the fuel level through the clear glass float level window on the driver side of the carb.

Fuel pump history:
Factory original fuel pump lasted 10-15 years...priceless.

Autozone in-tank with no bracket, replacement pump with one year lifetime replacement warranty lasted 4 1/2 months. The replacement for the bad pump lasted 4 1/2 months. A-Z will only replace something once even though the total of the two was less than one year and even if the replacement for a bad pump was another bad pump! I needed something to get my car off the street and they were within walking distance....other stories about A-Z and their warranties...but not here.

New factory pump with bracket from the dealer $189 lasted 18 months. Far shorter than the expected 10-15 years.

STAY AWAY from black COMPOSITE fuel pumps. About $40-$50, It sat wired but not connected to the fuel line for 18 months. Factory pump went out....the brass fittings in the black plastic were pressed in and leaked when connected up. :(

Mr Gasket metal look alike to a Holley/Trick-flow $100. Noise lets me know it's working. I don't yet know
how long it will last. I thought about getting a second one as a backup (previous post)

The best fuel pump I ever owned (different car) was a Stewart-Warner drag race pump. Metal with built-in filter. It's reassuring thump let me know it was working and it never let me down.....priceless.

Now that car is running and I can drive, I plan to look into a better pump at one of the race car shops. I don't plan to spend $700. If anyone wants to make recommendations with a pump's GPH and $ cost, I'm willing to listen.


What do you mean the fuel pump LED? Check the alternator fuse under the dash if you suspect the pump isn't getting power

For checking the coil I was thinking a low watt bulb like an instrument cluster bulb or an LED. You could use a sidemarker peanut bulb 168 192 etc.
If you get flashes while cranking you can probably eliminate the distributor/ignitor as the problem and move on
If it flashes but still no spark I'd suspect the coil is bad. If you are getting spark and still no fire pull the fuel hose off, put it in a jar or into the carb throat and prime the pump a few times by turning the key from Off to On a couple times, look for fuel rushing out. Sometimes you can hear the pump or see the vapors coming out of the end of the hose when you turn the key.
I'd stay away from those stupid mr gasket external pumps. They are noisy and unreliable in my opinion and not much cheaper than the correct replacement

[senor honda]

Dr Snooz,
You spoke of a tach hop.......I saw that tach hop a few weeks ago.
I will write up the ICM test procedure that works for me...............now that the car is running.

But later. It's 10AM and I have to get my day going.-Bob

[Dr_Snooz]

If you are having enough wiring trouble that you have to wire in lights to let you know it's working, then you are having bad problems. Are you sure your fuel pump and distributor problems aren't related to the overall state of your wiring?

[senor honda]

I don't "have" to wire in lights to tell me something is working.
I "want" to know the condition of things on my vehicle.
I'm not having wiring troubles. Everyone reading this will have a fuel pump or distributor
go out sometime in their lifetime and it will not be related to the overall state of their wiring.

Examples of things I want to know:
I want to know engine vacuum to diagnose several things related to the state of the engines tune.
I want to know if my driving lights are on so my battery won't run down. I want to know if the
fans are on and to cut them off when driving through deep water. My car (stock) has a picture of a car
on the instrument panel and tells if a light is out and many other things such as battery condition, temperature, oil pressure, fastened seat belts, brake fluid level, etc. Honda did not put that picture and the lights on the dash because they have a poorly designed car or bad wiring.

I'm not typing all the conditions of all the things on my car and I'm not justifying anything on the car.
Back when I worked for the phone company I wired in lights and sensors for several offices so I could
tell when anything went out of service and fix it faster.........it seems logical to do that with cars also.


If you are having enough wiring trouble that you have to wire in lights to let you know it's working, then you are having bad problems. Are you sure your fuel pump and distributor problems aren't related to the overall state of your wiring?

[senor honda]

Looking into the distributor there is a black plastic module with male connectors at 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock.

I used a Sears Craftsman digital volt/ohm meter #82141 set for 2000k ohms.
There will be slight manufacturing variances/tolerances in readings.
I tested a "GOOD" distributor module and got numbers above 400.

Unplug two female wiring terminals to module before starting test.
Black probe to dist casing:
Red to 11 o'clock = 018
Red to 1 o'clock = 1 = no continuity

Red probe to dist casing:
Black to 11 o'clock = 017
Black to 1 o'clock = 475

Red to 11 o'clock male terminal, and black to 1 o'clock make terminal = 433
Black to 11 o'clock male terminal, and red to 1 o'clock male terminal = 1 = no continuity
---------------------------------------------------

I tested two "BAD" distributor modules and typed the two numbers that I got.
Unplug two female wiring terminals to module before starting test.

A BAD black plastic module will read:
Black probe to dist casing:
Red to 11 o'clock = 003 to 009
Red to 1 o'clock = 1 = no continuity

Red probe to dist casing:
Black to 11 o'clock = 003 to 009
Black to 1 o'clock = 267 to 333

Red to 11 o'clock male terminal, and black to 1 o'clock male terminal = 271 to 321
Black to 11 o'clock male terminal, and red to 1 o'clock male terminal = 1 = no continuity

If anyone has another test of the module, post it up, please.