A/C has stopped cooling - please read

[ecogabriel]

We were driving today with my son and when we parked he stayed in with the A/C on. When I got back, the interior was warm and no cold air was coming from the vents.

To make a long story short, when we got back I popped the hood open and turned it on. Compressor engaged no problem -same with radiator fans, and kept engaged for as long as I kept the A/C on.

Regardless, no cold air was coming out of ther vents. When touching the A/C lines going to the evaporator (under the black box) there was no difference in temperature between them (actually, they felt warm).

I could not figure out clearly from the glass on top of the dryer whether there was refrigerant; I could see a few bubbles but little else.

When I pulled the connector for the high pressure switch, the compressor disengaged, but I found OIL on top of it. It was a clear, light oil. There was a tiny poodle on top of the switch and the interior of the connector was also covered in oil. No oil

I pulled an old set of gauges to check for refrigerant pressures. This is what I got while running engine at idle, A/C on and fan at full throttle:

Low side 6-7 PSI
High Side: 70-80 PSI

It seems pretty clear the A/C has discharged - the oil leak on top of the pressure switch is proof of that.

My diagnostic: pressure switch went bust and refrigerant leaked through it. The oil covering its top and the insides of the connector is evidence that there is a leak there. NO OIL was present under the high pressure line where it is screwed in; I could not touch anything (the line is clean) and there is no oil in the bay area surrounding it.

The apparent solution would be buying a new switch, replacing it, pulling vacuum and checking it holds, and recharge.
I have some spare valve cores so I will go ahead and replace them.
I should have enough refrigerant for a close-to-full charge.
The only missing thing is I have to guess how much oil it might have lost to assess whether I need to add it.

I may go to the jy and practice removing the pressure switch there before touching the lines in my car.

I wonder if I may check something else, so I am posting here. Thanks

[Dr_Snooz]

I think you have everything covered. Looking for the spot of oil is always a good way of finding (relatively big) leaks. I have literally spent years (literally) hunting down small A/C leaks. I finally broke down and bought a sniffer and I don't have problems with leaks anymore.

[Legend_master]

You have already done everything I could tell you to do. As far as oil, I had to charge my system a couple times to figure out how low mine was. Have not actually figured out a good way other then vacuum the whole system free of oil, and refill properly.

[ecogabriel]

I appreciate your comments guys. Just a short question: would it be OK to add a dye to be able to spot future (hopefully not) leaks?

I will order the switch from Rockauto.com. Thanks again.

[Legend_master]

I appreciate your comments guys. Just a short question: would it be OK to add a dye to be able to spot future (hopefully not) leaks?

I will order the switch from Rockauto.com. Thanks again.

This is generally what people use to track down leaks in the A/C system.

Cooling System UV Dye, 1 oz. (375CS):Amazon:Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000OIGTTE)

[ecogabriel]

I think you have everything covered. Looking for the spot of oil is always a good way of finding (relatively big) leaks. I have literally spent years (literally) hunting down small A/C leaks. I finally broke down and bought a sniffer and I don't have problems with leaks anymore.

It is funny because I unplugged the pressure switch to see if the compressor would disengage. When I removed the connector the oil was there.

I think I got it easy, but I would confirm that after removing the offending switch.

[Legend_master]

Would be a great oportunity to replace all the seals, can be done in a couple hours. The hardest ones are under ther dash. Then you don't have to end up replacing them and recharging the system everything.

[Dr_Snooz]

I don't recommend dye. First, I've never found a leak with it. Never. Even when I had the special glasses and UV pen light. Second, once you've added it, you will never get it out again. It will fill your gauges and then drip out all over everything. It will drip all over your hands, all over the shop floor, all over the box you store your gauges in. It will leave bright oily spots in the trunk of your car if you throw your gauges in there to go help your buddy with his A/C. Every time you pull your gauges off the ports, it will blow dye everwhere. All over the port and everything surrounding the port in the engine bay. All over your pants, the paint or windshield, depending on the location of your ports. You'll basically have dye everywhere, and that's a big problem for diagnosis. Worse, most of my leaks have been from the 134 port adapters. You'll never find those leaks with the dye because there will always be dye on them. :duh: Finally, the dye degrades over time. If you have a small leak, the dye will degrade before you can see it. If you have a big leak like yours, you'll find the leak simply by looking for the refrigerant oil with your naked eye, thus skipping the dye and special light.

For me, dye has been zero help. It's only been a gigantic nuisance that I won't ever be able to undo. The sniffer has worked really well with no downside.

[ecogabriel]

UPDATE: Installed new pressure switch. Despite good fitting, there is a leak somewhere else -system does not hold vacuum. I just pulled a modicum vacuum using the engine itself to check for leaks.

I did some visual inspection and found light dirty residue on top of the compressor - what it looks like when some oil leaks and dirt gets trapped - specifically on the plate to which the hoses connect to. My compressor is a Denso, and it seems to have a 3-bolt plate (is it called manifold?) I can see one bolt on the higher side of it, and I see a second (and touch a third) on the side that faces the front of the car.

I suspect that, once the system de-pressurized it might have allowed some marginal seal to give way.

Not that much to complain, considering the car's age (2013-1986=27 years) and that I am most likely dealing with the parts installed in the factory in Japan.

Regarding the other points I inspected visually and had no oily residue, they were

Where lines hook up to the evaporator
Low pressure port (where the hose connects to the line)
Both lines going to the condenser
Both lines going to the dryer

Leaving aside the connections INSIDE the evaporator (in the cabin), I wonder if there is any other connection somewhere else that I may be missing.

The plan is now get a seal kit (I wonder if this one would fit) and a new dryer.

NAPA AUTO PARTS (http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=TEM801758_0158868733)

Replace compressor seals and check for leaks; if solved, replace dryer (and recharge oil) check for leaks again, pull vacuum and recharge. If still leaks, continue replacing seals as necessary.

I know there are better ways to go, but I am juggling several things at once and cannot devote the necessary time to tear the system apart and convert to r-134a

[ecogabriel]

UPDATE 2: started replacing all A/C seals in the engine bay. It is possible even to replace the o-rings in the compressor while installed.

When I pulled out the discharge hose, both ends were covered with a deep layer of dirt, so the leak my car has is probably there. I do not know what make it worse, but maybe the system becoming de-pressurized made it to crack a little bit more and develop a bigger leak.
Besides, it is really hardened. The suction hose remains flexible while being firm. No question that the harsher conditions the discharge hose sees contributed to its demise... I am not complaining here; it is possibly 27 years old.

F#@K! I love this car!

I will buy a new discharge hose and mineral oil. Replace hose, test for further leaks, replace the dryer if no leaks, check for leaks again, pull vacuum , recharge. I have to add oil obviously so I would add 4 ounces to the dryer and another ounce to the condenser.

I do have two short questions

1) How difficult is to remove the evaporator from inside the cabin? Is it enough to remove the glovebox (and maybe center console and radio) to remove it? Those are the last remaining seals that have not been replaced

2) There is a plate in the compressor that has two o-rings and a rectangular o-ring; I could not replace the rectangular one becasue there is not such a thing in the kit. Where may I get it?

[HLW]

1) How difficult is to remove the evaporator from inside the cabin? Is it enough to remove the glovebox (and maybe center console and radio) to remove it? Those are the last remaining seals that have not been replaced

When I replaced the evaporator in my 86, I didn't even remove the radio, just the glovebox lower cover, glovebox and the bar (frame) it mounts to. The instructions are on page 32-16 in the factory manual.

[ecogabriel]

When I replaced the evaporator in my 86, I didn't even remove the radio, just the glovebox lower cover, glovebox and the bar (frame) it mounts to. The instructions are on page 32-16 in the factory manual.

Good! thanks!

[Legend_master]

When I replaced the evaporator in my 86, I didn't even remove the radio, just the glovebox lower cover, glovebox and the bar (frame) it mounts to. The instructions are on page 32-16 in the factory manual.

I second this, took me about 15 minutes to get it out. Just be carefull when unbolting the in/out line in the engine bay. Mine twisted the soft metal really easily.

[ecogabriel]

I second this, took me about 15 minutes to get it out. Just be carefull when unbolting the in/out line in the engine bay. Mine twisted the soft metal really easily.

OK I will be careful about the lines then. I had to remove the brackets for the return line when I replaced the seals.

If I replace those seals, I wonder why not to go all the way and convert to r-134a. R12 is hard to get though I have enough for a full charge.

[Dr_Snooz]

I wonder why not to go all the way and convert to r-134a.

The conversion is easy enough and relatively inexpensive. To do it properly, you'll want to pull all the components, evaporator, condenser, compressor, etc. to drain and/or flush them. It's a fair amount of work, but like I said, easy enough and not too expensive.

Here's something to consider. The EU will be banning 134a in 2017. A couple US states narrowly avoided adopting similar bans a couple years ago after huge public outcries. Instead, they imposed heavy taxes on sales of 134a to individuals. I'm not convinced that we won't eventually get around to banning it here or otherwise rendering it unobtainable. If you don't want to use propane, I'm not sure what the alternative is. As far as I'm aware, there's no way to convert to the new style freon yet. So stock up on 134 while it's still around, I guess.

[ecogabriel]

The conversion is easy enough and relatively inexpensive. To do it properly, you'll want to pull all the components, evaporator, condenser, compressor, etc. to drain and/or flush them. It's a fair amount of work, but like I said, easy enough and not too expensive.

Here's something to consider. The EU will be banning 134a in 2017. A couple US states narrowly avoided adopting similar bans a couple years ago after huge public outcries. Instead, they imposed heavy taxes on sales of 134a to individuals. I'm not convinced that we won't eventually get around to banning it here or otherwise rendering it unobtainable. If you don't want to use propane, I'm not sure what the alternative is. As far as I'm aware, there's no way to convert to the new style freon yet. So stock up on 134 while it's still around, I guess.

Got my discharge hose in the mail today. Unfottunately, I got a tooth infection too so I cannot do anything until the dentist fixes it.

I think I'll stick to r-12, and work on getting the EPA 609 certification so I can buy the stuff legally if necessary.
I recharge my civic a couple years ago when I had the problem with the charge ports. No leaks since.
Besides the discharge hose and the pressure switch, I have seen no other signs of leaking in the 3G - I also replaced the port valves.

I thought about propane, but I am not sure about safety.

[ecogabriel]

I found out there are TWO different Denso compressors

One, the 10PA15E. Here, all the gaskets that come with the o-ring kits fit
Two, the 10P15E. For this one, the kit comes short: it needs two extra port o-rings and one square gasket that DOES NOT come with the regular kit

Fortunately, I found the parts online for the apparently odd 10P15E

Rings: FJC 4170
Manifold Gasket: FJC 4252

I even found the shaft seal kit FJC 3582.

There are also shaft seals for the other Denso, but now I know why the gaskets did not fit. Possibly, mine being a 1986 model meant it came with another compressor that might had been around already... Anyway, below is the place for the parts. Seems to have very good prices and decent shipping charges.

Automotive Tools OTC Tools Robinair Bosch FJC RTI Sunex (http://www.ntxtools.com/)

[Dr_Snooz]

I thought about propane, but I am not sure about safety.

I have been trying propane in my cars. I started with Duracool (a proprietary propane and butane blend specifically for car A/Cs) but I find that I can't keep the stuff in the system. I charge it and a few days later, it's all gone. Since BBQ gas is a lot cheaper than Duracool, I've been charging with that for leak detection. But I can't find any leaks. I bought a propane sniffer from Duracool, but it apparently doesn't work on BBQ gas. So I'm SOL thus far. In talking with the owner of Duracool about my situation, he didn't seem to worry much about safety, but he is telling me that straight BBQ gas is bad for the seals and bearings in the A/C. I'm not sure if I really believe him, though. I have noticed that straight BBQ gas does not perform well at idle. You have to be moving fairly fast for it to work well.

I'm not terribly concerned about safety when it comes to propane. You aren't using that much in the typical car A/C, and a number of very specific factors would have to combine in just the right way for anything to happen. Is it more dangerous? Of course. Is it wildly dangerous? Not so much.

[2geeSEi]

I have been using ES-12A Enviro-Safe Refrigerants (http://autorefrigerants.com/co00033.htm) with good results. Not worried about safety, as it has a strong pine scent added so you would smell it long before there was any danger.

[lostforawhile]

have you checked the expansion valve under the dash

[2geeSEi]

The expansion valve is one of those "if you're taking it apart, replace it" type of parts.

[Dr_Snooz]

In my case, the expansion valve in the 3g is new. It stopped working a couple seasons ago, so I had to replace it. I also have a leak, somehow, in the truck. The truck had a full charge of R12 when I bought it. Obviously, it had no leaks or that would have been long gone. The compressor started chattering, so I discharged it to add more oil, then replaced the R12 with propane. It leaks like crazy now. I have no idea why. The only real possibility is the 134 adapter fittings I put over the old R12 ports. Even if they are leaking, however, they shouldn't be leaking so badly that I lose an entire charge in a couple days. I'm flummoxed.

BTW, I've noticed that normal BBQ propane somehow loses its smell after being run through an automotive A/C. Caveat emptor.

I'll give a shout out to Barry Clark, the owner of Duracool. He spent a good half-hour on the phone with me helping to diagnose the sniffer they sent me. He took another sniffer off the shelf and we tested various other hydrocarbons to see if mine was defective. He even took his sniffer home over the weekend to see if it would detect straight BBQ gas when it was obvious that mine wouldn't. After determining that mine is defective, he is sending me a new sniffer, letting me keep the old one because sending it back to Canada would be too expensive. He's also a really nice guy to work with. When I get my leaks fixed, I'll probably refill with Duracool.

[2oodoor]

Why did you put the 134 adapters on if it ran 12 and you just gassed it with lp?

[lostforawhile]

The expansion valve is one of those "if you're taking it apart, replace it" type of parts.

it will be in the evaporator box, it's easy to take the entire thing out, then you take off the clips and it splits open, if it's like any of the others I've seen, you wont believe how much leaves and crap have made it through the blower and just packed themselves in there

[Dr_Snooz]

Why did you put the 134 adapters on if it ran 12 and you just gassed it with lp?

I ain't got no R12 gauges. :(

[ecogabriel]

I finally found where the leak was - it is the compressor.

I tried propane to check the leak - Envirosafe - and I was surprised that with one 6oz can (equivalent to 18oz r-12 according to them) the A/C came back to life, cooling and cycling normally. Next day it was gone. So I decided to check whether the compressor was the culprit.

I isolated it from the rest of the circuit by plugging the hoses that go to it. I used rubber plugs (the stoppers they sell in HomeDepot fit well). Unlike earlier attempts, vacuum has stayed stable for about three hours.

Although I used a ghetto seal for the hoses, it seals better than the compressor.

I pulled the compressor out. It is a Denso 10P15E. I had to take the A/C bracket and the P/S pump out of the way to remove the compressor.

The good news is that it is possible to reseal it. Parts are available and are cheap (I may spend $40 or so in seals).

I cannot afford replacing it right now, so if I can take the pulley section apart I will attempt a disassemble and reseal.

EDIT: I found exploded views of the Denso compressors (the 10Pxx and 10PAxx)

http://www.ackits.com/diagrams/Nippondenso2.pdf



It is very curious what happened: I had recharged the system about three years ago - I did not notice the leaks in the discharge hose and the compressor body - and it was cooling fine until the pressure switch burst. Those were slow leaks with the system pressurized, but I suspect that when the system lost pressure the shaft seal (or other compressor seal) gave way too.

I will attack the thing tomorrow. I would likely give Envirosafe another try to check that the leaks are repaired.

[ecogabriel]

it will be in the evaporator box, it's easy to take the entire thing out, then you take off the clips and it splits open, if it's like any of the others I've seen, you wont believe how much leaves and crap have made it through the blower and just packed themselves in there

I would probably take my evaporator box out too.

Anyway, my ghetto method of disconnecting the compressor hoses and sealing them with rubber stoppers is effective. This morning I still had vacuum in the system.

I removed the compressor shaft seal today. In this compressor model (10P15E) the shaft seal can be removed without taking the compressor apart. There was oil inside the nose; in fact, the felt piece inside smelled of pine scent (Envirosafe 12's odor). I already ordered a new shaft seal and the manifold gasket and o-rings. I took some photos that I would add if the thing ends up working well

I will not open the compressor since there are no other leaks in the body. All the dirt and grime came from the front - shaft seal and discharge hose were both leaking.
I still have to decypher how the two-piece shaft seal works to understand what happened.

[2geeSEi]

That is one of the most common places for A/C systems to leak, but the hardest to spot since it is behind the compressor clutch. The ES-12a makes it a bit easier to find the leak with the pine scent. That stuff cools great also, and like you said, one 6 oz can = 18 oz R-12 and 16 oz of R-134. These cars only take about 1 1/3 cans, so a full charge is under $10.

[ecogabriel]

The ES-12a makes it a bit easier to find the leak with the pine scent. That stuff cools great also, and like you said, one 6 oz can = 18 oz R-12 and 16 oz of R-134. These cars only take about 1 1/3 cans, so a full charge is under $10.

I got the single can from ebay and paid 10 bucks with shipping. I think it is good, especially for a test. i should not have used it since I knew about the leak, but now I am sure about it. The clutch and the pulley were both full of dirt/oil.

I would need to drain the compressor, measure how much oil is in there and add new oil, and do the same with the dryer.

[2geeSEi]

Damn, that is more expensive than on Refrigerant, freon, freeze 12, envirosafe, freon replacement, hydrocarbon refrigerants (http://autorefrigerants.com). I usually buy the case of 12 for $59 or $78 for the industrial with free shipping. They also have a 6-pack for $38 and $7 shipping and some other package deals. Single cans are $8+shipping. I just replace a hose on my son's Subaru yesterday and charged with 7 oz of the industrial and it blows icy cold.

[ecogabriel]

Make sure to pressure switch and replace all the seals.

The pressure switch blew up and started all the mess... it has been replaced already.
o-rings have been replaced too - need to take evaporator out and replace seals there.
Discharge hose also replaced - it was hardened and had a leak at both ends.
A new dryer will be installed too, plus replacing oil in compressor in dryer.
I will keep the r-12 by now.
I am waiting for the parts to arrive so i can replace the compressor shaft seal.

[ecogabriel]

Damn, that is more expensive than on Refrigerant, freon, freeze 12, envirosafe, freon replacement, hydrocarbon refrigerants (http://autorefrigerants.com). I usually buy the case of 12 for $59 or $78 for the industrial with free shipping. They also have a 6-pack for $38 and $7 shipping and some other package deals. Single cans are $8+shipping. I just replace a hose on my son's Subaru yesterday and charged with 7 oz of the industrial and it blows icy cold.

1 Can Enviro Safe R134a R12 Replacement AC Refrigerant Dye | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/310654106465?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649)

I believe 9.95 w/free shipping is a decent price. With just that single can, the system started working. Of course, pressures were on the low side, but on the other hand the compressor even cycled.

[2geeSEi]

1 Can Enviro Safe R134a R12 Replacement AC Refrigerant Dye | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/310654106465?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649)

I believe 9.95 w/free shipping is a decent price. With just that single can, the system started working. Of course, pressures were on the low side, but on the other hand the compressor even cycled.

True, that is a decent price for 1 can, as on the site it is $8 + shipping. The case price is less than $5 a can shipped, but I realize not everyone needs a whole case. I just have too damn many cars, so it's good to have on hand. And yes, it will cool really good with 1 can since a full charge is about 24 oz of R12 and one can of ES-12a=18 oz R12. A full charge is like 1 1/3 cans on these cars.

[2geeSEi]

Also, the pressures, especially the high side, are supposed to be lower with ES1-12a. It is much easier on the compressors than R134.

[ecogabriel]

Also, the pressures, especially the high side, are supposed to be lower with ES1-12a. It is much easier on the compressors than R134.

The lower pressure is what prevents me from converting to r-134a. Seals should arrive shortly so I will post updates

[Legend_master]

Just charged mine today from completely empty, took two full cans of 134a. Just a heads up for your system.

[Dr_Snooz]

134 pressures run 135/35. How can ES12 beat that?

[88Accord-DX]

Idk, can't beat a dead horse. (Deleted)

[ecogabriel]

Got the shaft seal in the mail yesterday. Installed the seal - it seems an improved version of the OE seal.

It is not hard to do, but you gotta be careful not to get it stuck, especially for the second half of the seal. a long socket allows pushing it straight.

Got mineral oil (I either go r-12 or es-12), pulled oil out of compressor (very little oil came out) Poured two ounces to rinse the compressor internally, rotated the compressor, and removed the oil to clean up debris... little metallic particles fortunately. Poured two ounces approx. (I will measure better later once I get a syringe) and installed in the car.

When I removed the rubber corks from the lines, there was still vacuum in the system. Good signal that there are no other leaks.

Pulled vacuum (engine vacuum) and it held fine. Pulled deeper vacuum - 25in hg - and waiting a couple hours to see how it does. I may leave it overnight.

I am thinking on getting a can of es12 and test the a/C for leaks in running condition. I might later drain and go r-12 or complete the charge with more es12

EDIT (5-22): system held vacuum overnight.

My question is whether someone has an A/C vacuum pump in the ATL area so I can pull a deeper vacuum before recharging, and then go for a beer and a good burger after that.

[Buzo]

Got the shaft seal in the mail yesterday. Installed the seal - it seems an improved version of the OE seal.

It is not hard to do, but you gotta be careful not to get it stuck, especially for the second half of the seal. a long socket allows pushing it straight.


Do you plan to make a how to? I mean, specially in how to dissasemble the pulley & clutch asm.
Is your compressor the Keihin or the Nippon-Denso?

[ecogabriel]

Do you plan to make a how to? I mean, specially in how to dissasemble the pulley & clutch asm.
Is your compressor the Keihin or the Nippon-Denso?

My compressor is a Denso; it is the less common (apparently) 10P15E. The other Denso is the 10PA15 (can't recall the final letter)
The only nice thing about this compressor is that you can replace the shaft seal WITHOUT disassembling the compressor. In fact, I took out the clutch, pulley, and coil, but once you took the clutch out the shaft seal is accessible.
I do have some photos from the disassembly and assembly is the reverse. The only complicated thing was re-installing the outer shaft seal; it went really tight and needed a deep socket to push it evenly.
For removing the clutch, the compressor has a rubber ring that fortunately resisted being pulled. I removed it using thin putty knives to separate the clutch from the pulley.
I think I would put an exploded view of the compressor if I can pull out the pages from the pdf file.

It might be a good idea to upload some photos together with the compressor's exploded view. Still, most people have the 10PA15 and for that one the whole compressor has to be disassembled.

Got another can of es-12 for testing. $9 shipped. I need to install the new dryer and measure how much oil was in the old one.

Is the "good stuff' r-12 available where you are?

Oh, if someone has an A/C pump locally the beer and burger offer is still up

[Dr_Snooz]

Interested to see how much oil is in your compressor. I've done two Honda compressors now where there wasn't any oil in them. :dunno:

[PinoyPunk]

Hello guys!
I'm new to this forum, and I have a 1989 Accord Se-I, I currently have an a/c leak from my compressor and I'm looking for a direct replacement. Is Denso a direct replacement?

This is the link: New Denso A C AC Compressor with Clutch Honda Accord 89 88 86 87 1989 471 1201 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Denso-A-C-AC-Compressor-With-clutch-Honda-Accord-89-88-86-87-1989-471-1201-/370742444414?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1989%7CModel%3AAccord&hash=item5651f8c17e&vxp=mtr)

[Dr_Snooz]

They don't give a part number, so it's hard to say. Denso was one of the compressors Honda put on these cars. If you don't have a Denso in the car already, then you'll need a bracket, manifold and hoses to retrofit it.

[2geeSEi]

They don't give a part number, so it's hard to say. Denso was one of the compressors Honda put on these cars. If you don't have a Denso in the car already, then you'll need a bracket, manifold and hoses to retrofit it.
Receiver/Drier also.

[Oldblueaccord]

I just scored on rockauto a new Denso compressor 10PA15 for 209$ and 5% off.

[Dr_Snooz]

Here's something to consider. The EU will be banning 134a in 2017. A couple US states narrowly avoided adopting similar bans a couple years ago after huge public outcries. Instead, they imposed heavy taxes on sales of 134a to individuals. I'm not convinced that we won't eventually get around to banning it here or otherwise rendering it unobtainable. If you don't want to use propane, I'm not sure what the alternative is. As far as I'm aware, there's no way to convert to the new style freon yet. So stock up on 134 while it's still around, I guess.

I couldn't help but notice that R134 was patented in 1992. Then coincidentally in 2012, 20 years later (and when the patent on 134 expires), we have another mandated conversion to a new type of patented freon. That's just too coincidental for my suspicious nature, so I did some research. Here is what I found:

Dirty Deeds Are No Longer Dirt Cheap by Rob Blackstock (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/blackstock5.html)

It seems that we all got to jump through the conversion hoop in 1992 when the patent on R12 expired and now we get to do it all over again when the R134 patent expires.

I won't be jumping through those hoops anymore, for as long as I can. I'll be using HC refrigerants. At least until they figure out a way to shut those down as well.

[Legend_master]

Well that actually makes a lot of sense.

[ecogabriel]

I am back into the thread -been way too busy to update.

I had to take the compressor out again and re-seal the compressor by replacing the body seals (three large o-rings that seal the two mid-halves and the ends. I got them - together with a schematic of the 10P15 compressor from here (listed almost at the end of the page

Automobile Air Conditioning Parts of Tucson Arizona, Century Auto Air, AC Parts, AC Service and Hoses, centuryautoair.com (http://centuryautoair.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=14)

Shipping was pretty fast. It was raining so badly the last couple of weeks over here that - together with my own personal things going on - I could do little to the car.

I pressurized the system with hydrocarbon ref. and there are no leaks; i cannot test cooling because the hose I used for the recharge failed and part of the contents leaked so I have little gas into the system (about 40 psi). I left the gauges connected and the pressure has held with no problems. The system runs with that little pressure but obviously there is no cooling (though I can hear the faint sound of gas going through the evaporator)

I am waiting for another can so I can do a proper test (it should have arrived last week but got lost in the mail!) but now I am optimistic about getting it fixed. If it works fine, I might just leave the hydrocarbon in and reserve the freon for future use.

I have replaced compressor shaft seal, compressor seals, discharge hose, pressure switch (the one whose failure started this mess) most of the o-rings in the lines, the schrader valves in both low and high pressure ports, and I have a new dryer waiting for installation. The only orings I did not replace where those in the evaporator inside the cabin (though all the other rings I replaced were in good shape despite the 20+ years of being installed.
I read somewhere that Honda used neoprene seals and those are compatible with both r-12 and r-134a; if you see the photos in the link above the seals are black (neoprene).
Will post more soon (I hope)

[ecogabriel]

Interested to see how much oil is in your compressor. I've done two Honda compressors now where there wasn't any oil in them. :dunno:

First time there was little oil, so I added 2oz. Second time it was very little, so 2oz were added because I noted that I had two sources of leaks (compressor shaft seal and high pressure discharge hose).

I saw that there was oil in the system though I cannot tell how much; the return hose had oil dripping from it when I removed it the second time. The dryer should have some oil in it that could be measured when I replace it - though I kept the system closed by pushing rubber corks in the hoses' ends when the compressor was out and pulling some vacuum with the engine.

I did not see any issues inside the compressor indicating lack of lubrication - there was a thin layer of oil all over the insides - and did not notice anything strange like metallic debris or anything . The compressor always worked smoothly with no noises.

[Oldblueaccord]

Any updates on this? Im interested in seeing if you went with the es12a.

I realized that Freeze 12 is not being made anymore and i really needed a can for my old Lebaron.

[2geeSEi]

I realized that Freeze 12 is not being made anymore and i really needed a can for my old Lebaron.

Why not use ES12a in the Lebaron? It's a great R12 replacement. I have it in my Accord, 85 Jeep Cherokee, and my son's WRX. We also had it in a 74 Mustang II when it was running, and it would blow frost out the vents on the freeway. You can charge with the weight equivalent, or to the same low side pressure as R12 (the high side pressure will be lower).

[Legend_master]

I've been running the envirosafe stuff for a month now, and it works great. Very cold on the highway, and incredibly easy to install to the system.

[Dr_Snooz]

Legend, what are your pressures with the ES12?

[Oldblueaccord]

Why not use ES12a in the Lebaron? It's a great R12 replacement. I have it in my Accord, 85 Jeep Cherokee, and my son's WRX. We also had it in a 74 Mustang II when it was running, and it would blow frost out the vents on the freeway. You can charge with the weight equivalent, or to the same low side pressure as R12 (the high side pressure will be lower).

Thats the idear sir.

I really just wanted to slap a can in and go. the ac has been marginal as late but the cars running hot so im fixing that today. Freeze 12 works great but now i cant find a can locally.

The es12a has to be ordered online as well so ill prolly get a case so ill use it on my Honda as well its totally out i m redoing it and the clutch.

[Legend_master]

Legend, what are your pressures with the ES12?

It says not to go over 60psi. Here are some things I read over before using it.

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS - RefrigerantGuy.com (http://www.refrigerantguy.com/FAQ.htm)

This is what I used, but I got it off ebay.

R134a Replacement Refrigerant with Dye Can Details and Online Ordering at Enviro-Safe, Inc (http://www.es-refrigerants.com/products/w/id/173/t/r134a-replacement-refrigerant-with-dye-can/details.asp)

[2geeSEi]

Yeah, you want to keep the low side about the same as what the graph shows for R12. The high side will always be lower by at least 15 psi.
Oldblueaccord- A case is the best way to go with free shipping $59 for 12 cans to the door, or $78 for the industrial.
I always get mine from autorefrigerants.com.

[2geeSEi]

I also noticed that es-refrigerants.com adds a hazmat fee on some of the items, where autorefrigerants.com does not. A case of industrial comes out to $95 there as opposed to $78 on the other site.

[Oldblueaccord]

What oil you all use?

[Dr_Snooz]

It says not to go over 60psi.

I'm more wondering what your high side pressures are. I've been experimenting with straight BBQ gas. I am running about 40 psi on the low side, but high side pressures are running close to 275. That's quite a lot higher than I'd like so I'm wondering if ES12 runs any lower.

[2geeSEi]

I use POE oil, but the ES12a is compatible with all of the refrigerant oils, so for a retrofit, you can leave the R12 mineral oil in the system. You can also get oil testers to check the condition and amount of oil in the system.
I think the highest high side pressure I've had with ES12a was like 225-230 at 1500 rpm and 95° F ambient. Is that 40 psi on the low side at idle, or 1500? If that is at 1500 it's a little high.

[Legend_master]

I don't ever check the high side, just low. I'm currently at 50psi, but I think I could get one more can in the system.

[2geeSEi]

A full charge on these systems is 24-26 oz of R12, which is equivalent to 8-8.5 oz ES12a or about 1 1/3 cans. If your low side is too high, you won't get complete evaporation, especially at low RPM, therefore less efficient cooling. Go by the pressure chart for R12 for the low side. You don't need to worry about the high side.

[Dr_Snooz]

It's a good idea to watch the high side too as it can help you diagnose problems with the system. It can also keep you from making a mess. I recharged a 134 system last weekend with one of those trigger cans that attaches to the low side only. Because I'm a perfectionist, I put my gauge set on the high side so I could see what it was doing. The trigger can came with an integrated gauge that told me to charge the system to ~55 psi on the low side. When I got to 40 psi, the high side was pushing 270 psi, which is very high. High pressure safety cutout is at 315 psi. Had I kept charging, it's entirely possible that I would have hit the high side cutout and not known why the system wasn't working.

[Dr_Snooz]

Well, I just looked up some pressure charts and straight BBQ gas gives similar pressures to R134 and R12. I think I'm going to write a how-to on using straight BBQ gas from a propane tank in your system. I was thinking that pressures should be similar to those of a converted R12 system running 134 which never really go above 200. But looking at the 134 and R12 charts, they all go closer to 300 in dedicated/non-converted systems.

[Pnem3]

Well, I just looked up some pressure charts and straight BBQ gas gives similar pressures to R1 34 and R12. I think I'm going to write a how-to on using straight BBQ gas from a propane tank in your system. I was thinking that pressures should be similar to those of a converted R12 system running 134 which never really go above 200. But looking at the 134 and R12 charts, they all go closer to 300 in dedicated/non-converted systems.

You should try running a mixture of isobutane and propane. The isobutane will make your pressures lower. I've posted on the subject over the years. I ran this in my 3g for many years without leaks or issues. There are great articles on the net that can show you the proper ratios to match the characteristics of freon. Straight BBQ gas will work but the condensers on the 3g are not very efficient as compared to the parallel flow condensers designed for R134a systems. Good luck and stay cool.

[Dr_Snooz]

Yeah, enlighten me on that. I would prefer a blend, but the only way I know to do it is to buy cans of it, like Duracool. That always involves a web purchase, and a wait, and isn't as cheap as I'd like. I have BBQ bottles here and can charge up in minutes for next to nothing.

If you could show me a good way to optimize the propane with butane, I and my family members would thank you.

[2geeSEi]

Both Duracool and ES12a are mixes of propane and isobutane. If you buy the 12 can case of ES12a from autorefrigerants.com, it only comes to $59 for 12 cans which is only $4.92/can. It comes out to about $6.54 for a full charge. I would like to hear the results of a custom mix including the cost of the isobutane camp fuel.

[Oldblueaccord]

OK I added a can of the ES12a today down and dirty well see what happens. I felt the vent temps were cooler. it says it has dye in it which I rather not have.

[2geeSEi]

OK I added a can of the ES12a today down and dirty well see what happens. I felt the vent temps were cooler. it says it has dye in it which I rather not have.

Did you mix it with the Freeze12, or did you evacuate first?

[Oldblueaccord]

I mixed it for the time being. Ac was cool not cold so just added in one can. I dunno even what is a full chsrge is on this car.

[Legend_master]

You have to keep the pressure under 60psi on the low side. I was able to get 3 cans in with a completely empty system.

[2geeSEi]

I mixed it for the time being. Ac was cool not cold so just added in one can. I dunno even what is a full chsrge is on this car.
Is this on the Lebaron or the Accord?
And I would not put anywhere near 3 cans in the Accord. 60 psi is way too high. That isn't what they say to charge to, that is where you could start to damage the compressor. It says to charge the low side to the pressure specified for R12, which varies by ambient temperature. Never cram as much as you can into a system.

[2geeSEi]

How efficient is ENVIRO-SAFE (http://autorefrigerants.com/Envirotechnical.htm)

[Legend_master]

As I said under 60 psi, mine with 3 cans came out to 54psi. Not sure if the 2nd gen is a smaller system or not, but those are the numbers I got.

[2geeSEi]

From the documentation:
There are no new procedures or techniques to learn! The same equipment and gauges are used. The refrigeration system is charged in the same manner as with the refrigerant being replaced using approximately the same pressure levels. (Note: ENVIRO-SAFE ES-12a pressure on the high side may run up to 15 psi lower than what your R-12 high side pressure normally is. The low side pressure should be the same as your R-12 low side pressure at any given ambient temp.) For those who install by weight, the equivalency ratios are: .33 lb. of ENVIRO-SAFE ES-12a is equivalent to 1 lb. of R-12; .38 lb. of ENVIRO-SAFE ES-12a is equivalent to 1 lb. or R-134a

DO NOT OVERCHARGE! Exceeding 60 psig on the low side may damage compressor.

From the 3g factory service manual:
Refrigerant capacity is 23-26 oz R12.

3 cans of ES12a= 54 oz of R12, more than twice the capacity.

http://i.imgur.com/wogU5mI.jpg
From the chart, at 1500 rpm and following the other parameters, low side should be 25 psi at 86° F and 50% humidity and high side should be 232 psi (215-220 with ES12a). With refrigerant, more is not better. Once you start to get overcharged, the efficiency starts to go down. To talk about squeezing in one more can and things like that shows ignorance on how an A/C system works. Did you even measure the high side? With 3 cans, it is probably way higher than what is safe.

[Oldblueaccord]

Is this on the Lebaron or the Accord?
And I would not put anywhere near 3 cans in the Accord. 60 psi is way too high. That isn't what they say to charge to, that is where you could start to damage the compressor. It says to charge the low side to the pressure specified for R12, which varies by ambient temperature. Never cram as much as you can into a system.

No this is on my Lebaron. Its a 1977. Big compressor.

I want to test it on it first. its a stock set up for R12 I just put 2 cans of freeze 12 in it like 7 years ago. If it wrecks it I wont be to mad.

As far as the Accord. I just bought a brand new Denso compressor for it and all the stuff/o rings etc. I had been running r134a since 1995 in it. But if this new stuff works ok Ill go with it since I don't think r134 is going to around much longer.

My fill hose is leaking for one thing and I couldn't even find my thermometer its been a while since I done an AC system correctly.

[2geeSEi]

No this is on my Lebaron. Its a 1977. Big compressor.

I want to test it on it first. its a stock set up for R12 I just put 2 cans of freeze 12 in it like 7 years ago. If it wrecks it I wont be to mad.

As far as the Accord. I just bought a brand new Denso compressor for it and all the stuff/o rings etc. I had been running r134a since 1995 in it. But if this new stuff works ok Ill go with it since I don't think r134 is going to around much longer.

My fill hose is leaking for one thing and I couldn't even find my thermometer its been a while since I done an AC system correctly.

The oldest Lebaron I could find on a capacity chart was a 1985, which took 37 oz of R12. 70's could be a different story. I have a 74 Mustang II that takes like 53 or 54 oz. Of course since you have no idea how much of the Freeze 12 is in there, capacity is irrelevant anyway. Unless you can find the temp/pressure graph for the car, I would charge a little at a time with a thermometer in the vent and stop when the temp stops dropping. You will probably end up around 25-30 on the low side at 1500 rpm if the ambient temp is in the low 80's. Mixing the two refrigerants doesn't cause any problems, but technically it isn't legal to do in the US.

[2oodoor]

Sorry, I just have to "like" here.
74 Mustang II I never see those anymore but once in awhile, and oldblueaccord you're rockin a Lebaron:.: 1977 ? I had a couple of those as parts cars but didn't realize how long they made that body till googling it.

[2geeSEi]

Sorry, I just have to "like" here.
74 Mustang II I never see those anymore but once in awhile, and oldblueaccord you're rockin a Lebaron:.: 1977 ? I had a couple of those as parts cars but didn't realize how long they made that body till googling it.

I'd love to tell you the whole story of the Mustang II, but this isn't the place.