an idea about a new guage cluster

[Immeraufdemhund]

I'm toying with an idea to basically redo the entire cluster in our cars. What i want to do is have an lcd (notice this is want, i might have to rethink) and have it show all the guages. But it will look different. I know that is all kinda vague but there are more ideas in my head. what i want to do is pull apart my cluster find out what all those wires do in the back and have my new cluster show them. This would allow for any color guages, any brightness. Also an easy way to switch between Metric and English. I would like to have it do special movie type stuff when you turn on your car. Since i'm here i figured have it do something fancy with 3 geez, with a link at the bottom of the cluster.. anywho that's all just idea. here's the question part of it. has anyone already started at finding out what the different wires do in the back? Is it possible to get rid of the turny thing in the back of the cluster and have all the other things work off of the tach. (i say that because i remmber people saying that it goes by electrical pulses.) If i was able to do that i could just have a formula and have the computer figure out your speed. I would also want to make a keyboard type port for it so that you could customize it to how you want it to display. I have some of the programming skills for this. I just need the electronic side of this. If people think this is a reasonable thing to go for i'll continue my research and work at it some more. peace out and if it's possible to help me, i'd appreciate it.

[netfreak]

I'd buy a finished product like that if it wasn't too much cash.

[Nospeed]

I guess you could do that, they had the digital speedometers in the 80's olds (i think), and now the new celica's have all digital components in their cluster...so it could be done. now are you thinking about like a laptop screen for the components? like so you could change the layout of the dash for every driver???

[ACCORD EX]

wouldn't a LCD cost a lot ?

MIKE

[Immeraufdemhund]

Nos - yah that is kinda the idea.
Mike- and yah it would be expensive, so i'm most likely going to have to find something else that works kinda like it. I'm thinking of a color screen like they have on the casio calc's. But then again. I'm not sure. I might just have to get old computer screens off of ebay. Problem is how to get the screen all connected.

[smufguy]

i would say that LCD gauge cluster is really hard to make unless u got all the tools, heck of a lot of money and time. Go with digital if u can. Japanese cars (3gs i mean) did come with digital cluster.

PS: if it goes faulty on the road, its hard as hell to fix.

[Nospeed]

Yeah, its gonna be kinda hard to do...if you could swipe the cluster and the computer out of a 2001 celica, you could switch around the layout and make your own dash.

otherwise, you could make a program that converts the data from the speed sensor, and the sensor for the trans, into an image for the display. now if you are a programer, it might be kinda easy, but to convert into images, might be a little harder.

id stick with a old laptop with a lcd screen, and just lengthen the wires for the monitor, then you have your setup, but then you will still have to come up with the install, and the sw to run the components.

but i think it can be done!!

[Immeraufdemhund]

Nos. Now that's an idea. I could run a computer from the battery and drain the booger. I guess if i ran it in dos, and have it turn it self off after a few minutes. The program it self wouldn't be too bad. Does anyone know what gets transmitted from the sensors?

[Nospeed]

Well of course you would have to get a 12v dc to 110v ac converter to do this, because the computer wouldnt run on the 12v dc current......wait...maybe it will, it has a small battery that it runs off, and that is dc current, so maybe it will work without draining the battery. all you would have to do is put a cap inline of the computer and the battery, and have a step down voltage regulator for the current.

as far as the data that gets transmitted, i have no idea...ill look it up here on the net to find out...

[My 89 Accord Lxi]

hasnt someone on this board already done that?

[dosh8er]

nuts... most systems don't run an Operating system.. it's all PLC's and IC's baby!. That would mean you'd probably need to get a chip burner ($500 u.s.). There would be quite a bit of circuitry just to get the LCD panel to light up individual sections for speed/tach/fuel/temp/etc.

Needless to say, it would be quite and advanced electronic project. Most of it would require endless hours in front of schematics..

If you could find an old laptop w/ a monochrome screen (blue/white... black/white... green/white) with a small screen.. the interfacing with the computer would just require basic control of serial ports. But in this situation, let alone any, it would require a failsafe system. (no signal collisions... thus leading to incorrect readout, or none)

if you really want to do this... let me know.. i'd put my electrical know-how to work.

Don't think just DOS/Windoze for an operating system, if you want to go that route, go with something like linux, or *nix... something that can be sized down DRAMATICALLY. (As linux and it's cronies can.. i'm pretty good with that stuff, as some others on this board probably are too.)

Again, if I can be of any help, drop me a line.

[Immeraufdemhund]

yah, i wasn't thinking in terms of windows. Too many moths in the system. I've heard that they were going to put linux on ps2, but then again you can put linux on nearly anything. I know what an IC is but i'm not sure what a plc is. think you could email me?
[email protected]
i know it would be a bit advanced, and i've only taken a little bit of electronics. I'm mainly a programmer, unfortunatly 3/4 of my programming is in windows. But i can switch to linux cause that's the other 1/4. I would like to know how to interact with the ports. I'm thinking that i'd have to use a parallel port. And or have that telephone router thing in the serial port. Do you know what i'm talking about. 4:1 something. Anywho, that's a different thing. I'll probably try and get my POS radio shack tester on the lines and turn on the car and start testing. I'm wondering is all that stuff powered by 12v? or is it stepped down? (i know that's ac talk, but i dont know dc talk)

[dosh8er]

Yes, linux IS ON PS2. kewl.

plc = programmable logic unit (basically an IC programmed to a specific task.)

Can you program in C (:shudder:... or C++) if so, linux would be easy as cake... i wouldn't foresee a problem.. plus i have a resource of *nix C programmers on my hands... (not including my self)

I'd have to think about it.. but i'm pretty sure i'd go with parallel port on that one. I'm not sure what you're refering to with the 4:1 thing...

I seem to remember there being a lot of 5vdc in vehicle elec. systems.. Why? i'm not entirely sure..

A small, older, laptop would run on 12vdc .. since the only voltages in a pwr supply are 5 and 12... (actually there are more.. but since we'd be using something older, those wouldn't be a concern.).. i'm sure hardwiring would be simpler than plugging in w/ a 110 inverter.

[merlindavis]

the simplest way to get power to a PC in a car would be to just use a DC-DC power supply... an inverter would be completely pointless... there is no need to go from 12v to 120v just you you can plug in a power supply that will convert it back down to 12v... most small electronics will run off of 12v dc anyways... as for getting some gauges displayed on a screen, i do belive that the AEM EMS has that ability... although you need either a laptop or some other comp in your car with the ability to run windows to be able to use it... if you would just like a nice digital gauge setup, check out the selection Nordskog(sp?) has... there's a guy on www.honda-prelude.com that has replaced his speedo with a digital speedo from Nordskog on his 2nd gen prelude... i believe his sn is DriverGTS...

[Immeraufdemhund]

ok i'll look into the laptop, as for C i know a little bit and i can learn it rather quickly if i just sit down and read one day. I'm not sure about how to use the ports in c though. That is one thing i would be interested in learning and i dont think it's discussed in my book. If you have any source using ports i'd be interested in looking at it.

[Immeraufdemhund]

well i found the print out of a Parallel Port. It's a 25 pin female connector. 1 is top right, 13 is top left. 14 bottom right, 25 bottom left. 1. Strobe 2. Data0 3. Data1 4. Data2 5. Data3 6. Data4 7. data5 8. data6 9. data7 10 ACK# 11 BUSY 12 PE 13 SELECT 14 AUTO FEED# 15. ERR# 16 INIT# 17 SLIN# 18-25 GND.

well i understood the data 0-7 and the GND, but other than that i'd only be guessing.

[Immeraufdemhund]

Ok i took apart my guage cluster today and found out a few thigns. I have to make it legible then i'd like it if someone could post a few things for me. mainly a picture. I got a rough idea of what most of hte wires do. need somethings still. peace out.

[3G Jester]

sdhit dude. thats pretty cool that u know allthat stuff......

i wanna do custom clusters but not lcd/digital. thats just too much shit to break. like if one wire goes...your FUCKED. with actual physical guages theres less chance of problems. i wanna reform the casing around the guages and do custom faces for all of em--seperate em and make indiglo guage faces---then ur just moving the mechanichs around and not ripping em out. just changing their casing. I would LOVE electroinics--and if u figure it out please tell me if they work good and how u did it...but i think im just gonna go mechanical still no digital for me.

[ACCORD EX]

sorry if i am late man !
when teh pic was first send to me i didn't remember the PM you sent to me !

here you go

http://members.fortunecity.com/accordex87/Cluster.jpg


MIKE

[dosh8er]

This is from the shop manual at Paul's web site (AERODECKUK, http://www.pauldesign.ru/honda/shopmanual.html):

(this is in section 24-56. The actual schematics start at 25-5)



L.H. Drive:

A1 Warning lights/Dimming circuit (IG1)
A2 Not used
A3 ALB warning light (-)
A4 Hazzard indicator light (+B)
A5 Hazzard indicator or Seat belt reminder light (-)
A6 Brake warning light (-)
A7 Fuel reserve warning light (-)
A8 Dimming circuit ground
A9 Dimming circuit input (light on signal)
A10 Cruise control indicator light (-)
A11 Oil pressue warning light (-)
A12 Choke or PGM-FI warning light (-)
A13 Charge warning light (-)
A14 Charge warning light (IG1)

B1 Speed pulser ground
B2 Speed pulser output (4 pulses with each full turn of the speedometer cable)
B3 Gauge light (-)
B4 Gauge light (+)
B5 Tachometer/7V regulator (IG1)
B6 Fuel gauge input
B7 Tachometer input
B8 Gauges ground
B9 High beam indicator light (+)
B10 L.Turn signal indicator light (+)
B11 R.Turn signal indcator light (+)
B12 Water temperature gauge input

C1 Speed sensor output
C2 Not used
C3 Not used
C4 Speed sensor amplifier (IG1)
C5 Speed sensor amplifier ground
C6 Not used
C7 Not used


R.H. Drive

A1 Warning lights/Dimming circuit (IG1)
A2 Oil pressure warning light (-)
A3 Charge warning light (-)
A4 Charge warning light (IG1)
A5 Not used
A6 Choke or PGM-FI warning light (-)
A7 KQ model: Bulb check circuit input
(starter signal)
Others: Hazzard indcator light (+B)
A8 Hazzard indicator light (-)
A9 Cruise control indicator light (-)
A10 Brake warning light (-)
A11 Dimming circuit input (light on signal)
A12 Bulb check/Dimming circuits ground
A13 Fuel reserve warning light (-)
A14 ALB warning light (-)

B1 Speed pulser ground
B2 Speed pulser output (4 pulses with each full turn of the speedometer cable)
B3 Gauge light (-)
B4 Gauge light (+)
B5 Tachometer/7V regulator (IG1)
B6 Fuel gauge input
B7 Tachometer input
B8 Gauges ground
B9 High beam indicator light (+)
B10 L.Turn signal indicator light (+)
B11 R.Turn signal indicator light (+)
B12 Water temperature gauge input

C1 Speed sensor output
C2 Not used
C3 Not used
C4 Speed sensor amplifier (IG1)
C5 Speed sensor amplifier ground
C6 Not used
C7 Not used

[dosh8er]

And, if you want to look at the manual pictures, i have it all up here: (that way we can save 3geez.com some bandwidth :D) http://milokp.dyndns.org/~dosh8er/honda/honda-project.html

[Immeraufdemhund]

So now what is the difference between L.h> Drive and R.H. Drive? By the looks of it my 87 lxi is l.h....would this mean that lh is 86/7 and rh is 88/9? or is the difference between Auto and 5spd?

[Greg]

Uhh, Isn't LH drive where the steering wheel is on the LEFT side of the car and RHD where it's on the right.

Paul's manual is for the Aerodeck -- the euro accord. So in England the steering wheel is on the right. So they would like re-route wires and stuff because everything is backward.


But this just sounds like the logical answer. Someone please correct me if I'm being a dumbass.

----------------

BUT WHY THE HELL would you want to go through all this trouble for a custom dash display anyway. These things I just don't understand. Turbo-charging, custom suspension, custom intake, other performance shit... etc. I understand.

But do you know that it will take you like 500 hours to do this project. Like, even if you know which pin is for what, how are you going to translate the signal you get into something your laptop can interpret? It'll take forever to decode this stuff.

It's not worth it. Get like indiglo gauges instead or stick to stock.
:stick:

Put the million hours you're spending into a custom paint job or new rims or something. Or buy a junkyard car and rebuild the engine or something. :deal:

[dosh8er]

don't be such a goat getter (http://www.goatse.cx)...

seriusly.. why the HELL WOULD YOU WANT A GODDAMN FIN on your accord?!?!

I mean, WTF?!? STICKERS? I grew out of that 10 years ago!

Have I made my point?

[Immeraufdemhund]

well there are some of us who are nerds, and some of us are grease monkeys. I like to be a nerd. And it's not that hard to get the computer to translate all that code. You have 8 data ports that the computer can read. That is over 255 different possibilities that the computer can play with. But that is just the data pins. There are other pins in the parallel port like htr stobe that allow for the computer to read the tach. See it's not impossible. You just have to know what your doing. You can convert any electrical signal to a "digital" one and have a computer read it. So...chew on that.

[Greg]

OK, so here is my question then:

So you hook up your computer to the connector by connecting to the pins on whatever port you are inputting from.

Then you write your program in basic or C or whatever to read the input signal from the pins so you are reading what signal the gauge on the car should be getting.

And sure, you can save that into a variable or array or whatever and even write a nice program to graph it over time or whatever the hell.

But then how do you calibrate the signals easily? How do you know what value the car is sending to the speedo @ what speed.

The calibration is where I think you would kill LOTS of time.

(and aren't the speedo's on 3G's analog/cable controlled anyway so wouldn't you need to rig a vehicle speed sensor to get a digital signal?)

Let me know if I'm wrong or how you'd do it?

[Immeraufdemhund]

responding to your statements on "break" at a time
1. I'll hook up the car jacks into a bread board and have that convert all the signals to the appropriate voltage and have it output the appropriate signal to the appropriate pin on a parallel port. (i'm using the parallel port because it's the biggest that is common)
2. Correct, i'll be writting an OS in C and have that read the signals and respond accordingly.
3....umm..maybe, there might be ways around that and just use real time graphing.
4.This is correct, it is going to be tricky. I'm going to make the "car" customizable. The user will have to input the year, and make, for me (87 lxi hatchback) and the tire size. I know some people are doing swaps, but that will be a future project. I might implement a different tranny, because the gear ratio is just a number, and thown into an equation it gives me another number. I'm still wondering how i'm going to "calibrate the car", I might just get with a friend who has an accurate speedo and have him drive at increments of 10mph and see if it's correct.
5. Calibration shouldn't be too hard because it's all just a formula. Getting the correct input values is what is goign to be a little difficult.
6. from what i know the cable in the back controls your odomoter. That will be my only concern. I'm thinking of jury rigging something like a speedo from a bike. (hook up a magnet on your spokes and have that figure out everything). Or i could just use the speed and a timer to get the milage.

As far as i know the only thing mechanical is the cable in the back, The rest of it is electrical. Shouldn't be a problem. Help any? Any suggestions?

[Greg]

Hey man, don't get me wrong. It's a cool idea and very ambitious, but it will be tough. It has a lot of potential (probably more for newer cars that are EFI and have more things controlled by the ECM -- like ignition timing).

But it would be a bitch to truly calibrate everything.

OK, say you do calibrate the speed by figuring out what values it gives at what speeds. It's probably a linear formula (y=mx + B), and you could get the formula by plugging the values at different speeds into a graphing calculator or just doing the math by hand or whatever.

But it will be a trick to get it precise, like within 1% error.

Now, even if you get the speedo good, then you have to think about the tachometer, fuel gauge, temp gauge, etc..

For the temp gauge, I would probably get a multimeter that has a temp probe (my crafstman $50 multimeter, eg, has a thin wire w/ a tiny ball at the end that gives you a digital reading of the temp at the ball end).

If you wanted to be really precise about this shit, you could drill a tiny hole in the bottom of your radiator (like 1mm), next to where the sensor is threaded in, put the probe wire in the hole and seal it w/ some temporary means (like some rtv, just to keep the leak down to a minimum while doing measurements), get readings from the meter & from the temp sensor @ diff coolant temperatures, and then seal up the pinhole with some epoxy.
And then isn't there another coolant temp sensor in the block or head somewhere?
You can do this w/ digital thermometers too.

For the tach, I'd maybe rig something to my crank pulley like your magnetic bike speed sensor or something optical maybe. I'd do this while my instrument cluster was still stock, and calibrate the readings to the tach at that point. Then I would get readings from it afterward.

You know what, I'd even do this FIRST, while everything was still stock, and then get my speed readings by driving it @ a certain RPM in a given gear and doing the math w/the wheel size & gear ratios. I'd get my tach formula accurate first and then just figure out the speedo from there. Or at least I would do it that way and THEN have someone w/ a good speed gun do some tests to see if it's accurate and tweak the equation.

With any linear relationship you only need 2 points to get the formula, but I'd take 4 or 5 or more just to see if there is a tight linear fit.

And I can't think of any reason why the readings from these things wouldn't be linear, but what if they aren't??? Then you have to mess around w/fitting parabolic equations to the measurements, etc.

Writing the code will be the easiest thing. I did some C/C++ programming back when I was in high school (shit, like 7 years ago and I don't remember jack), and this coding will be SIMPLE. Getting the right formula is the tough part.

Well, email me @ [email protected] if you ever get it done & tell me your process. It's cool shit, but I'd never put the time into it myself. :sadwave:

[dosh8er]

you just don't understand....

oi veah!!
[old country style]

The honda... the thing you're driving.. has a computer that interprets all the data from hese various wires/leads.. you know that thing called a speed sensor amplifier?!? think a second...
i'm gonna crawl into my car w/ a multimeter, some time, lots of paper, and a calculator and figure it out..

everything takes some time... i mean.. shit.. you can't just drop a turbo onto a 3g w/ the drop of a hat.. it's a process..

lemme know if you get any more major breakthroughs, Immeraufdemhund (BTW, for those who don't speak german.. that literally means 'always on the dog')

[Xulfiqar]

3rd Gens came with a digital cluster. You can find that on the web along with the controller unit. The genuine one on the Ex-R model is really neat.

We have em here in Pakistan for abt 300 USD (used) along with the controller and installation.

[Immeraufdemhund]

GOSH DUDE THAT BLOWS, YOU GUYS GET EVERYTHING!.. well for us americans who don't get all the cool things, we'll show you easteners.....dosh...did you have to break my secret!

[Immeraufdemhund]

umm, about the amp. I've never messed with amps, and i barely know how they work. How does it amplify the signal, does it just boost the amps?