higher than normal idle and rpm differences

[mgirl69]

First of all, I've got an 89 honda accord lxi 4dr sedan, automatic, 2.0 electronic fuel injection...nothin special...all stock.... with about 157,000 miles. the thing runs like a beast and i honestly havent had any problems...i dont know a whole lot about cars (because, i admit, i am a girl...:lol and i was referred to this site by a friend for some help before i go run to a mechanic and spend tuns-o-money that i dont have...)
problem: When its cold out i get a higher than normal idle. as we all know, 750 rpm idle when warmed up is normal, 40 mph runs at 2k rpm and 70 mph should run at 3k rpm...anywho whats happening is when i start the car the engine races to approx 2k rpms and 2250 rpms...then is slowly goes down (like normal) til its warmed up. then sits at 1k rpms...and no matter how long i let it sit to warm up and how long i drive for, it doesnt go any lower. as a result, then driving @ 40mph, my rpms are at 3k and 70 mph rpms are at 4k....as a result, the car shifts at the wrong speeds and the rpms obviously run too high, which in result sucks up more gas.
this has been happening for the past 2 winters and i've purposly been avoiding the problem hoping it would go away, but it hasn't..
my car runs perfectly fine in the warm weather though...
i got a trans. fluid change and oil change today (cuz i needed them both) new spark plugs about 6 months ago, radiator is fine no leaks...and a new alternator about 2 years ago...
anyone have any ideas what could be causing this?

[ACCORD EX]

high idle shouldn't have anything to do with the wrong shifting points ! :huh:


MIKE

[mgirl69]

yeah i got a higher idle, so logically, it would cause the shifting pointed to be different (rpm shifting)...reguardless, its still a problem...the high idle..so n e one with info..i'd greatly appreciate it.

[ACCORD EX]

idle is engaged when you are not pressing any gas !
anywayz
my car goes to high idle when cold then goes down to 1 K and the when i start going and fully warmed p it goes to 800 !

anyway clean the carb and check for sticky throttle , linkages !

MIKE

[mgirl69]

i understand what you are saying.... but like i said...no matter how warm the car is in the cold weather...it doesnt go any lower than 1k. when driving or not...and like i said normally its around 750...and my speed to rpm is different when driving....i do not need to repeat myself do i....?

[shepherd79]

ok ok, lets not get angry.
you can check for a problem by looking at the computer. the computer is located under the driver seat. look under the seat from the back side. there should be a plastic door that you can pop out. you should see a light. make sure it is not blinking. if it is blinking. tell us how many times it blinks. oh yeah make sure your car is idling when you look at the computer.
this is all i have to say for now.

[shepherd79]

oh Mike,
Her Accord is EFI.

[socal3rdgen]

i was going to say that. but anyways i have the exact same problem as she does, damn it. it rarely goes below 1000 rpm when its in idle.

[mgirl69]

do you live in a warm climate? (i forget where u r located) i only have the problem when its cold out (like under 55 deg)

[Greg]

Let me first say that I don't know too much about automatic trans. I drive stick and my girlfriend's car is stick, and I have put most of my car learning time into learning about stick.

However...

There should be a cable that goes from your throttle-body linkage to your trans somewhere. Basically, as the throttle opens and the accelerator cable turns the cam (or whatever you call it -- the round-ish thing that the cable is linked to) on the outside of the throttle body, there is another cable that is pulled that goes to the trans.

ANYWAY, this cable makes the thing shift down (I think -- someone correct me if I'm wrong) when you give it a certain amount of gas.

Well, if the cable is improperly adjusted (there should be like an adjusting nut on the linkage @ the throttle) then it could contribute to you running in low-gear.

BUT, there could be some other stuff going on as well!!! If your trans is slipping a bit then the RPM's will run too high.

I think the problem is probably in your auto-trans and not your idle adjustment (but someone tell me if I'm wrong).

I'm guessing that your idle probably doesn't drop down all the way because you might have carbon deposits/dirt in your throttle body (TB) which prevent the plate from seating to where it would idle @ 750. It could be other stuff too, but this is a possibility.

You should check your Auto trans fluid (ATF). Make sure the level is up to the max point for the given heat range. I THINK that it's a static check on your Honda (I know it is on later Accords) but it might be a running check. Look in your owner's manual. take a white piece of cloth and wipe your dipstick on it. If your trans fluid is somewhat brown-ish, get it changed! If it's red then it's OK. But if it hasn't been changed in a while, change it and it might help.

I'd do that stuff first and then go from there.

*** But someone tell me if I'm wrong about any of this. As I said, I know much more about stick than auto trans!

[Greg]

And one more idea...

The outside temp might have an effect on the viscosity of your trans fluid, which could be the problem if it really does run perfectly fine in warm weather.

If your fluid is dirty and it gets cold, it could be too viscous and not allowing for proper trans functioning.

So, get it changed. It's basically the same as getting your oil changed. There's a trans pan under your tranny. All a mechanic has to do is take out the drain plug, drain it, and then fill it to the right amount w/ new, clean ATF.

ALSO! Make sure it's not overfilled or too low! There is a trans dipstick that you can check. Look in your owner's manual.

[socal3rdgen]

ok well i have a manual and i have the same problem so should we be looking at the throttle body? i also live in a warm climate

[mgirl69]

thanx for the ingo, but i got the trans. fluid changed yesterday (noted in the very first post) and ya it was gross...dark brown almost like oil...and it was still doin it afta i got it changed...most people, from what i've read has said vaccuum leakage and idle sensors....but i guess i wont actually know what it is until i get it checked out by a professional...

[ACCORD EX]

Originally posted by shepherd79
oh Mike,
Her Accord is EFI.


:banghead: :banghead:

damn i always don't read the info !

MIKE

[joker2]

Sometimes it can be the simplest solution to your problem..... Like the first thing I would have done is adjust my idle screw, on the throttle body...... With the car running, put your emergency brake up, as far as you can, with the car in 4D...... Take your foot off of the brake to see if the car wants to still roll, if it doesn't and make sure it doesn't before you get out, pop the hood and turn the idle screw until you get the idle to 750...... You're gonna to have to keep checking the rpm gauge to make sure it's set to where you want it....... Usually if you adjust your idle too low it will idle kind of rough when you come to a stop...... *The idle screw adjust the amount of air the intake is taking in, hince which effects your RPMs at idle*:wave:

[Greg]

Yeah, we're all too stupid here to actually read your post thoroughly and then we give you bad advice. :huh:

Sorry that I missed your trans fluid change.

But this is a clue. If your tranny fluid was really gross, it could have caused a tranny problem. I would maybe get it changed again in a couple thousand miles to get the residual junk out. Changing oil or trans oil is like filling up a cooking pot that you've been using to heat up sauce. It'll be all crusty, and then you fill it up w/soapy water and rinse. Well, after that there will still be crusty residue left, but if you slosh more soapy water around in it and dump it again, it'll be cleaner.

There is a screen that should be just above your trans-pan that sort of filters out dirty fluid. A guy I used to work with saw a huge performace jump on his high-mileage Toyota when he just dumped the fluid a couple times and changed the screen.

But I'm not telling you that this is definitely your problem!

I would do as others have suggested (or get a RELIABLE mechanic to do it) -- clean out your throttle body and clean the idle adj screw in there. I've never messed with this myself, but people say that there can be carbon deposits that, if cleaned, make a difference.

I'd also clean the linkage around your accelerator cable outside of the TB for shits and giggles. It's easy, just spray carb cleaner on it and work it back and forth. I don't think your problem is sticky linkage, but it might help things a little if your linkage IS a little sticky and it only takes like 2 minutes to do.

Good luck!!!

[EurAccord]

I have a manual Accord '87 16V-i which has identical symptoms.

I am in the UK, our outside temps are very variable, when temp is below about 5 degs C then a cold start will go up to about 2.1k tickover speed and then reduce quite quickly to the normal 1.8k that I get at higher outside temps, when the engine is cold.

This will reduce to about 1k when warm, but this is quite variable, if sat in a traffic queue it will reduce to 750 or so after a while.

I had a Toyota Supra which did exactly the same, I think it is common with ECU controlled cars and can be caused by a sticky Idle Control Valve, however this would give more severe symptons (e.g the idle would stick at 1.8k).

Seeing as several users seem to get exactly the same pattern I guess we could assume that it is normal for our cars ....

As far as the Auto shift points are concerned I think that this is a seperate problem ... I have also owned an auto Aerodeck Carb model, this would give some very high tickover speeds, but the shift points were not changed and were normal.

The shift points will obviously change according to your throttle setting ... more throttle, higher shift point ... Or you could have a slipping box, not unknown on these cars ....

Hope this helps.

Cheers
AndyM

[socal3rdgen]

i have to add somethin. my car has developed a sticking idle. some times the idle will stick a 2000rpm (not always the same rpm but a example) then i hit the gas and it goes back down. i sprayed my throttle cable spring on the throttle body and it really didnt work. i can feel my pedal sticking inside the car. is there a point which i can spray my pedal at?

[smufguy]

mike i know u love carbs and u love cleaning em :flip: just kidding man.

Okay this might sound weird, but this is what my mechanic did on my uncle's 4g (90 accord). it was shifting as wrong rpms jus tlike u said and it was giving a really bad milage and threw a code that was not even listed. All my mechanic did was reset the ECU and it was like a miracle and runs better. ALso to note that shifting was hard before resetting the ECU though he had an Automatic.

Just try resetting the ECU before u do any repairs gurl. YOu might have a luck with that.

[mgirl69]

makes sense...so you're sayin i will have to do this seasonally...not my bag-o-bones...gotta b somethin else wrong with it...cuz it only happens in the cooler weather...so it cant be that simple...

[hondaisthebest]

But does the problem disappear after driving for a long time like 15 minutes??? If so maybe a coolant sensor problem or maybe your thermostat is to cold for your climate. I am pretty sure that you have a problem with one of the sensor did you find a code on the ecu????

[mgirl69]

nope it doesnt disappear not matter how long i drive for....i drove the other day non stop for over an hour...and it was still the same...it doesnt go away unless its warm out...kinda sucks

[mgirl69]

oh i didnt look at the ecu yet. i will hopefully get to that on sat. at some point. when i do, i will be sure to let u guys know what it says.

[mgirl69]

ok guys just to let you all know, i took a look at the ecu, and there are no lights blinking (with the car running and warmed up for about 15 min)

[AZmike]

Originally posted by socal3rdgen
i have to add somethin. my car has developed a sticking idle. some times the idle will stick a 2000rpm (not always the same rpm but a example) then i hit the gas and it goes back down. i sprayed my throttle cable spring on the throttle body and it really didnt work. i can feel my pedal sticking inside the car. is there a point which i can spray my pedal at?

Mine used to do that too and it pretty much went away on its own. If yours does it a lot you can replace the throttle cable with a new one from Honda for not too much money (I think it was around $25).

[AZmike]

Originally posted by mgirl69
ok guys just to let you all know, i took a look at the ecu, and there are no lights blinking (with the car running and warmed up for about 15 min)

Is the engine always warmed up when iding high?

If your thermostat has enough gunk in it it won't close all the way and you'll keep running coolant through the radiator making it so your car never completely warms up (it will always idle a little high trying to stay warm). With my old thermostat if I ran the heater while on the highway the engine would actually start running cold. When I would come to a stop I would have a higher than usual idle (1000-1200). You may want to try replacing the thermostat and gastet for $10 and see if that helps.

[mgirl69]

idling high for my car is at 1k instead of 750 rpms....but like i said, it only happens in the cold weather (idling at 1k)...so it must be something (a part) that is temperature dependednt or is effected by temperature...like something that expands and contracts....just a thought...
i'll take into consideration what you've said

[AZmike]

If your temp gauge show that your engine isn't warmed up yet then that's probably that cause. If this happens while your temp guage reads normal (1/3 of the way up) then it's something else.

The cooler air does make a difference. A radiator wtih 50 F air running across it loses much more heat than a radiator in 85 F air.

[mgirl69]

i never said that the temp gauge said it wasnt warmed up...my temp gauge goes to the normal spot all the time...thats not the problem...i've had this problem for the past 2 winters...going onto the 3rd so i am well aware of the symptoms and when it happens and doesnt happen...

[AZmike]

..and you never said it didn't either. I'll know better than to offer my advice next time.

[anchovies]

Okie...I'm just shooting ideas here.
Let the car warm up (1k idle you said), then turn the idle screw on the tb to back the idle down to normal 750-800rpm.
Now test the trans, is it shifting at the "correct' (summer) shifting rpms?

[mgirl69]

i dunno how to do that...i'm a girl...but n e who...when i went to work this morning, it was not normal. on the way home 8 hours later, it still wasnt normal, then 2 hours after comin home from work, i went out, and it wasnt normal, but 2 hours afta goin out and havin the car off, i was on my way home, and it worked normal...the highest temp today was like 40, and at the point it was normal, it was 33 out....very strange cuz friday it was warmer out and it ran with a highter idle...
this doesnt void out my theory of the cooler weather havin to do with the problem, but i just feel that its an intermitent problem...
oh and i dunno if this makes a difference, but that this point that it was running normal, i had like hardly any gas...?
i think its all strange....

[Midnight]

timing!!!!!! I think it might be the timing. :wave:

[mgirl69]

timing of...the weather...the gas...? ;-)
The timing belt???

[anchovies]

I think MidNight meant ignition timing. If it's intermittent, then it's difficult to pinpoint. How about bringing it in to a shop and have them take a look at it. They won't charge if you don't fix anything.

[mig88lxi]

I agree with Joker and Greg, adjust ur throttle bolt on the TB wire, also u might want to open the throttle body and give it a clean with some carb cleaner. Open up the throttle body and have someone give it gas while u spray the carb cleaner into the TB. Definately adjust the bolt on the TB wire(should be the bolt on the right side of the TB wire) to bring the acceleration down. The first thing u should do thought is check ur ecu box and see if the red light is blinking and count how many times like sheperd said.

[mgirl69]

i did check the ECU box a few days ago and nothin was blinkin.

[87AccordsterLx]

ya just go to a shop and have them check your timing... you should be ok...

[Sabz5150]

Originally posted by EurAccord
I have a manual Accord '87 16V-i which has identical symptoms.

I am in the UK, our outside temps are very variable, when temp is below about 5 degs C then a cold start will go up to about 2.1k tickover speed and then reduce quite quickly to the normal 1.8k that I get at higher outside temps, when the engine is cold.

This will reduce to about 1k when warm, but this is quite variable, if sat in a traffic queue it will reduce to 750 or so after a while.

I had a Toyota Supra which did exactly the same, I think it is common with ECU controlled cars and can be caused by a sticky Idle Control Valve, however this would give more severe symptons (e.g the idle would stick at 1.8k).

Seeing as several users seem to get exactly the same pattern I guess we could assume that it is normal for our cars ....

As far as the Auto shift points are concerned I think that this is a seperate problem ... I have also owned an auto Aerodeck Carb model, this would give some very high tickover speeds, but the shift points were not changed and were normal.

The shift points will obviously change according to your throttle setting ... more throttle, higher shift point ... Or you could have a slipping box, not unknown on these cars ....

Hope this helps.

Cheers
AndyM

Can you PM me your car's VIN number? Want to see if Honda can order parts with it. Thanks!

-5150

[Midnight]

I also think the shift points are a different problem. I remember by brothers car did that and it turned out to be the automatic clutch we didn't find out what is was until it was too late.

[Roar]

Alright, I'm still a pretty inexperienced mechanic, but I have an idea that no one has mentioned yet. I know that on carburetted cars (which yours is not) there is a automatic choke. This enriches the fuel in cold weather during startup to aid in warming the engine faster. What I am thinking is that the choke may be operating incorrectly and causing you to run rich all the time resulting in seemingly weird shift points because of the way the cars computer is reading the fuel mixture? The only thing is my FI experience is minimal and I'm not sure how the choke system would work on an FI car or if it is even existant. But a thought none the less... It syncs with the "only in cold weather" part of the story.