Blown headgasket - cloudy oil after headgasket replacement

[Hazwan]

My 86 Prelude with an ET engine had blown headgasket when I first got it. I replaced the headgasket and had the head machined, reinstalled and ran for about half an hour total? and it blew again. I took it apart again, had the head checked and stuff and everything looks good.

Either way its all back together again for about 3 months and I'm still having issues with my oil being cloudy/milkshake like. Its not THAT bad but still enough to bother me. I'm on 3rd oil change now since 100 miles or so but mostly driven short distance.

I was told that I need to get the car running long enough to burn off the leftover moisture but I'm freaking out since my coolant kept disappearing but then it could be a leak somewhere I don't know

This is how it looks like
http://i.imgur.com/mGR9p5F.jpg

And this after driving for 40 mins straight. It turned clear.
http://i.imgur.com/YZWIIWb.jpg

Except it would turn cloudy again if it was left overnight and driven very short distance after that. If I keep the engine hot enough even after it was sitting overnight then it would stay clear so I really shouldn't be worried about this right? I think too much sometimes and I just need a reassurance that I have nothing to worry about!

[2oodoor]

Where did it blow each time? You should be able to look at gasket and tell. Anywhere else they could mix like coolant heated intake manifold/oil cooler or similar engineering?

[Hazwan]

No oil cooler/intake manifold passages that might get it mixed with the oil. Head was warped, at least thats what the second machine shop told me. Its either from the first machine shop that didn't machine it properly causing the gasket to blow the second time or me overheating it which is unlikely.

Or... cracked head or block.

[2oodoor]

B20a time :) bolts right in

[Hazwan]

Meh I'd rather not do that :(

[Strangeduck]

water in oil is almost always a cracked block. A blown head gasket or cracked head on an I-4 rarely gets water in oil. with v-8 you can get a leaking intake gasket and water will run down in the valley and down into the pan. But of course you dont have a v-8


This is why people think head gaskets are the cause of oil in water.

this usually happens with high mileage engines

1. Engine blows head gasket
2. Engine gets hot
3. Cracks block
4. replace head gasket
5. car mysteriously dies a few months later
6. owner gets frustrated, blames whoever did head work/ says head gasket is still bad or that it probably has a cracked head.
6. owner gives up and junks car and never checks oil again.

[Hazwan]

Why would it clear up after a long drive if theres a crack? Wouldn't that cause the coolant to get in the oil all the time - clouding the oil even more?

I was thinking that it might still be leftover coolant/moisture in the oil and warming up the engine on a long drive would cause all the moisture to get up under the valve cover. This is is evident from heavy steam coming up from the oil filler hole and PCV vent. Theres even water dripping from the air filter housing coming from the PCV.

And when it's cold the moisture would drip back into the pan, mixing with the oil especially when it ran for a bit and never get hot enough to evaporate the moisture from the oil again?

Or the crack is small enough that it get closed up when it's warm? Is that even possible at all?

This is so frustrating.

[Hazwan]

Seriously tho, earlier this morning I went out for a quick drive like 10 minutes? Engine barely get warm. Checked the oil.. yup exactly like the first picture I posted here.

Went out for another drive for about 40 minutes with the engine running around 1/4 to 1/2 on the temp gauge and never went any higher than 1/2 and this is what I found

http://i.imgur.com/Uvnzo54.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vzGUoyg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ILC4I6Z.jpg

Some milkshake under the valve cover. Its bad enough that my valve cover vent is steaming and water would actually dripping when I took the hose off
http://i.imgur.com/wzxyjwP.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/UWHOaya.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8FUj2mi.jpg

wat.

WHY would it clear up when its fully warmed and then came back when its running under its operating temperature?

It is worth noting that my dipstick gets about 2-3mm higher than the full mark when its cloudy and spot on when its clear - cold or warm doesn't make a difference. Water in oil??

I know moisture in the oil get burned up when the engine gets warm enough but WHY would it come back? Wouldn't cracked head/block/blown hg would let the coolant/oil mixed up all the time? Wouldn't my oil stay cloudy all the time instead?

I would get a compression/leak down/cooling system tested except I don't have the tools so I either have to borrow them or get it tested at a shop so thats not exactly an option right now :(

HALP.

[carotman]

My guess is that heat makes the metal expand and seals whatever that's cracked

[Strangeduck]

Long shot, but maybe its cracked in one of the cylinders so when the engine is running compression keeps the water out, after you shut it off it leaks under the piston rings and into the pan.

My best guess anyway. I will be honest that i don't know enough of how these honda heads are designed, most the time head gaskets and cracked heads just make the car smoke or overheat. Maybe someone else here is more knowledgeable about them. But If you look at yahoo answers, there are a million "experts" who say a head gasket will put water in the oil and that is just a bunch of BS.

[Hazwan]

Yeah I've heard cases where they have blown hg but oil/coolant never mix.

What carotman said makes sense though.

Interestingly though mine never overheats. 1/2 temp on the gauge even in traffic in hot weather is max it would go. Fan cycles on and off and it maintained the 1/2 heat no matter what.

Something I noticed yesterday.. Radiator cap off, tried to start the engine.. coolant spit out from the filler neck with a lot of force.. thats not normal right? I do have 1-2 bubbles every 10-15 seconds too :(

[2oodoor]

Strangeduck you're leaning over to the incorrect info side. Oil and water can and do mix when HG is leakng or "blown". Not necessarily in every case though so what you said earlier was correct.
Coolant gets in the combustion chamberif the HG is blown between cylinders, so if the vehicle continues to run it loses coolant which will eitber be pushe out the exhaust or fall down the cyl into the oil pan. If the engine isn't running but hot the loss of coolant by pressure, will escape down the cyl into the oil pAn.
If the HG is leaking between coolant channel and oil return hole...they mix. If the HG is leaking between coolant port and intake channel port, the air fuel mixture can goe into the coolant, you will smell gas in tbe radiator. Also compression can go into the system and force out tbe radiator if the cap is off.

All said, It is head blowing to think how many GM vehicles out there were diagnosed as having blown HG when it was just lower intake leaking, ..for years and across all models and engine lines, wtf GM...

[Hazwan]

Retorqued my head bolts just because. It shouldn't hurt anything heh

But I loosened one at a time about 1/4 turn, then retorqued to 49lb/ft as per manual and I found out that I could turn another 1/2 if not more when I retightened them. All of them have the extra 1/4 turn so that made me think if it was torque properly before by my buddy who reassembled the head for me or the heat cycles had caused the bolts to come slightly loose.

I don't have to put a lot of force to loosen them either.

Took the car out for a drive for about 20 minutes and it got warm enough but it stays at 1/4 and never more where it previously would creep towards 1/2 but never higher. I really hope that is a good sign >< Coolant stays in the overflow bottle at the FULL mark too. I'll take the cap off and see if the level in the radiator moves at all. I used to need to add about 500ml after the car got warm enough.

PLEASE let it just the loose head bolts ><

BTW heres a video of the coolant spewing out of the radiator yesterday https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMtLmQhCazE

I didn't check if it stopped doing it earlier but I'll recheck that too!

[carotman]

It could be loose head bolts.

I had this happen on my B20A. Oil was sweeping on a corner. This was solved by re tightening the bolts.

[Hazwan]

Oh man I took the cap off, coolant is slightly low but I seriously think that my coolant pipe behind the block is leaking. It was rusted so bad internally. I'm going to replace that when i take the intake manifold off to replace the gasket again and replace that pipe wile I'm at it.

BUT I took the cap off, started the engine. NO MORE SPEWING COOLANT!!!! I think it was just the loose head bolts. I reckon there still around 5lb/ft which explains why that 'leak' went away after it got warmed up. Maybe the head expands and crushed the hg better? Who knows but I do know that it no longer spewing coolant during startup like the vid! I'll see how it hold up in the long run with my coolant/oil :D

[Hazwan]

Nevermind its toast. Fucking great.

[Dr_Snooz]

Doh! What happened?

[Hazwan]

Oil is cloudier than ever and it wouldn't clear up no matter how long I took it for a drive. Previously it would clear up after a 30 mins of drive but now the oil is basically white AND the level is about 5mm higher on the dipstick while my coolant goes down a lot. My overflow bottle is empty and my radiator level is low. Doesn't take a genius to figure out where my coolant goes :(

[AccordB20A]

chuck an a20 in it then

[Dr_Snooz]

Milkshake isn't your only problem with this engine. You also have a lot of rough running. You should do a compression and leak down test (http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0406_cylinder_leakdown_tester/viewall.html) before anything else. You need to know what's really going on with that engine. I would also do a full vacuum gauge test (http://www.gregsengine.com/using-a-vacuum-gauge.html) (chart at bottom of page) since it's at least half-way running. It wouldn't hurt to do a pressure test on the cooling system either, just to be sure. Here in the States, you can get the tools to do those tests from most auto supply stores for free. Not sure if you can do that in Malaysia though. Simply replacing a head gasket and leaving the bottom end was always a long shot. It's time to do your research and figure out what you're really working with. Then build appropriately.

[Hazwan]

That rough idle can be contributed to poor quality distributor cap (dizzy is a reman unit with junky looking cap. Yes I know I should replace that but whats the point in spending anymore money on a junk motor?) and vacuum leak somewhere. My intake gasket is leaking and I wasn't about to fix it until I'm 100% certain that my engine is fine. Vacuum reads around 18in/hg during idle and its pretty steady. 18 is a bit low though although it would rise to 20 something when I closed the choke plates which is safe to say that I'm running lean. Drops to around 2 and jumps to about 25 something when the throttle opens and closed quickly.

Yes I should get a leak down test done like I plan to but would that reveal a cracked block/head if I'm not leaking anything into the combustion chamber? Like I said before retorquing the head bolts fixed the bubbles in the radiator and spewing coolant with the cap off. I found this and I'm going to give it a try $10 Coolant System Pressure Tester - DSM Forums (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-parts-fabrication/440201-10-coolant-system-pressure-tester.html)

I don't think its worth pulling the head again seeing how it can't be the headgasket again. And yes head was resurfaced, twice. And block was straight and clean. There has to be a crack somewhere so I'm looking at engine swap options right now unless theres a way to check for a crack without getting the block out of the car?

Look at my oil level. Where did that extra oil/fluid came from?!
http://i.imgur.com/D5ZxPTs.jpg

Funny how it cleared up once its been sitting for a few hours but still too cloudy to my liking.

Started the engine and let it run for 5 seconds, heres what I got
http://i.imgur.com/ucxNrZZ.jpg

That either still some leftover shit get mixed up when the engine is running or it was something else heh.

I don't understand why it would clear up before once warmed up and never came back unless it was running cold/short drives and now it won't clear at all after the head bolts were retorqued? Perhaps it somehow moved/disturbed the hg a little and now its leaking a lot?

Testing my coolant pressure once I managed to build that tester. In the meantime, lude is gonna be parked for a while. I now have 2 non running cars. Great!

[Dr_Snooz]

I just think it's well to take a step back and do your due diligence before moving on. Speaking from hard learned experience, one of the worst things you can do is dive into a project thinking you know what the problem is. You want to take the time to do the diagnostics and make sure you don't end up doing the wrong thing.

The car has a number of issues. Maybe those are because of a bad dizzie cap and a gasket. Maybe they are because of a cracked block. There's a lot of money between those two possiblities. When you factor in the expense of an engine swap, a leak-down test doesn't seem so expensive or unnecessary. You have some symptoms of a cracked block. You also lack some symptoms. For instance, one of the symptoms of a cracked block is bubbling coolant. Yet you fixed that by re-torquing the head. You say you're losing coolant and assume that it's getting into the oil, but you haven't eliminated the possibility that one of your hoses is loose. If you replace the engine because of a leaky hose, you're going to feel silly.

As far as I can tell, the cracked block diagnosis is uncertain. You need to do more research. You need to do more tests. If you do a compression test and find that two cylinders are bad, then milkshake is the least of your worries. Do your swap and be happy. If, however, you do all the engine tests and the engine shines through all of them, then you can start looking for other causes.

The vacuum gauge test shows that the engine is strong. That's good. You also inspected the cylinders when you had the head off. Did you see any cracks? It might be well to call your uncle and see if you can learn any more about the history of the car. This is the research you need to be doing now. Don't just replace the engine because it might be bad. Test. Test. Test. When you have done all the tests, research and think, then test some more. For instance, is this really a bad motor? Does it knock on startup? Does it blow blue smoke under load? Or does it run smooth and strong like a good engine? If it's smooth and strong, then it's not likely to be cracked.

Last point and I'll shut up. When I rebuilt the engine on my '82 Accord, I used white grease liberally instead of assembly lube (I was poor). It took a very, very, long, long, looooooong time to get all that grease out of the block. I can't remember exactly how long, but it was numerous oil changes before I stopped seeing milkshake in my waste oil. A year or two was entirely probable. It's possible that everything you're seeing is residual. It's also possible that the engine is toast. You can't know unless you test and think it through.

I can't see any good reason to park the car. If you're just concerned about milkshake but the car runs great otherwise, then as far as I'm concerned, there is no problem. Just drive it.

So take a deep breath, chillax and work through this.

[Hazwan]

Wouldn't driving the car with contaminated oil be a bad idea? Last picture I posted is the worst and its probably gotten worse and it never gotten that milky before.

Engine runs fine otherwise, no knocking, no smoking, temperature is fine. Max is 1/2 but never goes any higher no matter what I do - under load, left idle etc. It's as healthy as it can get with known vacuum leak and bad dizzy cap. I'll post up a pic and you'll see what I mean! It misses sometimes and doesn't idle as smooth as I wanted it to be. I ruled out bad carbs and dizzy as they were bad and dizzy was replaced and carbs were rebuilt. Cleaned every single thing and I doubt that the carbs would be the problem here.

I can't find any visible external coolant leak but that will be confirmed with a pressure test soon. The leak could be tiny enough that the water would instantly evaporate as soon as it leaks outside, leaving no trace. Hoses are good. Some of the smaller coolant hoses going to the carb were swelling from the oil in coolant but I've got them replaced. Heater is bypassed to rule out a leaky heater. Not that I need a heater anyway!

I'll get all the possible test done before I start doing anything. The gasket could be bad and blew on its own for some reason. It could be a crack. Or it could just be a coincidence. Nobody knows for sure!

I probably wouldn't freak out as much if it wasn't for the oil level going up while my coolant goes down :( But then all the tests should be done and hopefully theres nothing serious.

BTW theres no oil cooler on these motor right? There is one on A20A right?

[2oodoor]

"Coolant hoses going to carbs" what? I asked you earlier

[Hazwan]

Ah sorry there are hoses leading to the intake and carb's wax case but even if they're leaking wouldn't they just mix coolant with oil and not vice versa?

[2oodoor]

Chocolate in the peanut butter, peanut butter in the chocolate #ya still get a reeses

Does the radiator smell like gas? I think if the leak were in that area the engine would randomly misfire and the exhaust would smell like ass ( if youre using antifreeze and not streight water)

You could try Blue Devil block sealer, works amazingly. To see if the issue resolve, stuff costs as much as a head gasket set though but you don't remove anything but the thermostat temporarily..

[Hazwan]

Radiator smells like oil and theres thick layer of oil under the cap and on top of the radiator. Theres no way they're residual stuff. I've flushed the cooling system more than 5 times already! I wanted to try that stuff except I couldn't find that particular brand locally. I've heard good reviews for it.

Anyway its gotten worse last Saturday. Oil stayed milky and its getting milkier no matter what I do, warm driving or not it won't go away and coolant still disappears and oil level stayed 5mm higher on the dipstick. Not good!

I'm usually against leak fix stuff in a bottle thing but I've got nothing to lose really. So I bought a bottle of K-Seal since thats probably the only stuff I could find locally that get a lot of good reviews so I figured why not? To my surprise my oil turned clear and my coolant level stayed o.O Didn't expect it to work really! They don't really block coolant passages like most block sealer/radiator stop leak stuff do but I'm going to leave them in my cooling system for a few hundred miles and drain them later. Did an oil change earlier today and it stayed clear! Cold or warm driving doesn't make a difference in my oil condition or coolant level.

Not expecting this to last forever though. I would be more than happy if it lasts for a few months till I can get a new motor swapped in

I was planning to get another ET or A18A and if I could find one with low mileage/good condition I'll just swap that right in without doing much work to it else I'll rebuild one and go with A20A bottom end :) Or B20A. Don't know yet. We'll see what I could find!

[Civic Accord Honda]

(y) (y)

[2ndGenGuy]

How about B18A? You can keep the dual sidedrafts that way? :D :D

[AccordB20A]

yeah and rev it to a million rpm