Chipped torque converter teeth keeps ruining new starters...

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

Hi, I'm trying to figure out what would have caused the teeth on the torque converter to chip which in turn will ruin each new starter I have put on. Its an '89 Accord Lxi w/ automatic transmission. The starter bolts are always tightened down good each time and the car will run fine for a while (which in the course of going through about 5 starters can range anywhere between 3 months and about 3 weeks) until the starter shaft teeth become ground down enough to not be able to make contact anymore w/ the torque converter teeth as a result of the chipped torque converter teeth (which is probably a harder metal than the metal on the starter bendix). Since the Jasper reman 3 year warranty is up (as of last October) it sounds like I'm going to need a new torque converter w/ new starter. I just really can't afford yet another expensive repair bill to pull the transmission, take the bad torque converter off & replace w/ new one, then re-install the transmission, but I'm going to have to "bite the bullet" I guess. I have searched the forums for other people with this particular issue but could not find. I especially don't want this problem to happen again if I replace the existing chipped teeth torque converter w/ a new one. Any input would be greatly appreciated and I have included some pics. As much as I love this car its really starting to feel like a love/hate affair w/ all the expensive repairs (especially in 2013), but I'm past the point of no return an am going to trudge on. :chainsaw:

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[carotman]

My guess is that an old starter stayed semi-engaged for some reason and the ring gear rubbed against it, causing the teeth to wear down. Now, it's got out of hand and you need to replace the torque converter.

This is an easy backyard fix for anyone with 10, 12, 14 and 17mm sockets.

[Dr_Snooz]

That usually happens because you ran a worn out starter for too long, especially if it started making loud ZING noises without actually engaging the ring gear. Some of the older Honda torque converters had removable ring gears but it looks like yours is welded on. Replacing it is your only real option. The rest of the car looks great, BTW.

[Charlie5280]

Looks like you probably need to shim the starter to make sure it engages at the proper distance from the starter teeth to the T/C teeth.

On older Formula Fords (open wheel race cars), we constantly battled making sure the starters were properly shimmed to the flywheel. Otherwise, you'd chew teeth up left and right.

Hope that helps!

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

That's what I was also thinking especially since the teeth on the starter are not worn "further out across" the spline. Anyway I have since had a replacement torque converter installed & a NAPA remanufactured supreme starter part # RAY 446109 installed with it. This is the 1st NAPA starter I've purchased...all the other ones came from O'Reilly & Autozone (the only reason I got the Autozone ones is because O'Reilly & NAPA were closed at the time of starter failure and I needed a replacement that hour). I try to avoid Autozone but was in a bind. From now on other than Honda OEM I feel NAPA is my best bet. I would have chosen a Honda OEM starter over the NAPA one if only one could still get one from Honda, so NAPA is the only other best choice (as far as I am aware of).
So I picked the car up after having the replacement torque converter & NAPA starter installed and the car ran beautifully. Until later that night. Basically about a mile or so from getting home I noticed some smoke coming out the front so I shut the car off and the engine oil was really low. I thought about filling the oil to where it should be and driving it back to the repair shop but didn't want to take any chances so I had it towed back to the repair shop. They said it was the rear main seal which they had just replaced since they had to take out the transmission in order to remove & replace the torque converter. So they re-replaced the rear main seal at no charge/under warranty and not a drop of oil have I noticed since on my driveway at home or at work. I also had them replace all 4 fuel injectors on the car at the same time with remanufactured ones. So I pick up the car again and everything seems fine until that night when driving home the yellow service engine light comes on about 4 to 6 miles into the drive. The light has been coming on for a while in the past year or so but almost always after about 3 to 6 miles of driving. It did seem to be "triggered" more often by faster driving, like say, when I'm more in a hurry to get somewhere and tend to drive a little harder. This makes me think that maybe it could have been caused by the rubber seals in the fuel injectors either being non-pliable and/or cracked dry rotted since I have only replaced 2 of them since about 1999 or 2000. The other 2 are most likely the original untouched ones from 1989. Well that night I stopped for groceries and was in the store for about 30 minutes, came out and the car wouldn't start. Fully charged 3 month old Optima red top starting battery with 3 month old NOS OEM Honda positive & negative battery wires I got on eBay new in the factory sealed package. The starter turned over just fine, no funny noises just the engine wouldn't fire. I kept on and on turning the ignition/starter and I did keep hearing a suctioning noise (best way I can describe it). This made me also think there is a vacuum problem somewhere. Well I didn't want to burn up the newly replaced starter nor run down the battery but I kept on trying to start the car anyway and it FINALLY started, but felt like it would go dead if I didn't keep the RPM's up enough (not revving, just not letting it idle on its own). At that point I was so angry (and happy to have finally got it started) that I just wanted to go home so I drove the car the rest of the way home (about 15 miles). Well the next day it started but for about the 1st 10 seconds or so I had to keep a steady pressure on the accelerator to let it "clear out" the rough running until it sounded fine (has done this "rough initial running" thing several other times in the past couple weeks). I drove about 60 miles including the trip back to the repair shop where I had them adjust the valves and replace the valve cover gasket with a new Honda gasket (which after I came back to pick the car up they said did need adjusting), install my brand new OEM Honda distributor wire, replace the "lower" PCV valve hose assembly (the part of the PCV assembly that's hard to get to, not the upper grey rubber hose & grommet). During the about 60 miles of driving before returning the car back for the valves adjustment, PCV valve parts replacement, & distributor wire replacement the car would periodically "glitch" while driving on the interstate 65-75 m.p.h. Almost making me wonder if there was water in the gas or something. I know its not common but does happen at gas stations. Another thing I'll add that's probably not causing anything but just in case I replaced the gas cap (which had a little bit of cracking/dry rotting on the rubber seal) with a new OEM Honda gas cap & rubber seal, and a new OEM Honda radiator cap & rubber seal. Also I replaced the idle air control valve (I think Honda may call it a differnt name) with a brand new OEM Honda one. I have also visually checked all the vacuum hoses in the engine compartment.
From what I have gathered over the years the in-tank fuel pumps on Hondas rarely if ever go out(at least on these year models Accords). Of course most people don't keep 25 year old cars therby most people may never have to replace them on a Honda that I'd guess they would own for 10-15 years, if that. The reason I'm saying that is I have a '97 Chevrolet S-10 with 335,000 miles on it that I've replaced 5 fuel pumps on over the years (with at least 3 of them being GM OEM pumps) and a 2004 Chevrolet Venture van with 83,000 miles on it that I just replaced for the 1st time a new fuel pump. Both Chevys have in-tank fuel pumps as well as my '89 Accord Lxi.
Sorry to be so long winded but right now I'm wondering if the fuel pump is going bad. I used to think a fuel pump was either good or bad, no in-between or intermittent good/bad, but now I'm doubting that. Also sorry I waited so long to respond back to my original comment with the torque converter & starter issue. I thought I had my account set up to send email "alerts" whenever I'd get replies, etc. like I said before its a love/hate affair with this car and I have way too much money & time to turn back now. Especially when I look at the price on a new 2-door coupe Accord EX-L V6 6-speed! Any thoughts, suggestions, or comments would be greatly appreciated and I will try to check back more often .

[Dr_Snooz]

So I pick up the car again and everything seems fine until that night when driving home the yellow service engine light comes on about 4 to 6 miles into the drive. The light has been coming on for a while in the past year or so but almost always after about 3 to 6 miles of driving.

What's the code?

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

What's the code?

I don't have the correct code reader since the one I have supposedly only works on 1996 & newer vehicles (OBDi), so how do you get the "codes" otherwise?

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

Also I'm wondering if the 4 remanufactured fuel injectors I just had installed are causing the problem maybe. I unplugged the red plastic female connectors that plugs into the fuel injectors themselves yesterday and noticed that 3 out of 4 of them did not have the rectangular black rubber insert in them. Since I have another '89 Lxi coupe that I currently do not drive I took 3 of them out of that car's fuel injector female red connectors and put them in this '89 Lxi. Luckily none of the ones I transferred over were dry rotted, cracked, torn, etc. so that seemed to be good. In fact I was pleasantly surprised at how they were in that good of a shape although probably not quite as "pliable" rubber as they were when brand new. Once I started to really study the connections on the injectors I'm also wondering if the metal contacts are making a solid connection as well, especially on the red plastic female connectors. Whenever I plug them back in I try to make sure I get a solid of a connection as I can, but since they're 25 years old it might not take much for the plastic to swell out over time even if its just a little and cause a weak or intermittent connection that you'd have no way of knowing since they're encased in the red plastic female connectors. The only way I figure I'd be able to know is if I could "feel" what they were supposed to feel like as far as "solidness" back when they were new (1989). I would just replace the damn things if it weren't that much of a deal, but I don't think that part is available any longer from Honda, plus you'd have to buy the whole wire harness that it connects to and one end looks like it would be difficult to take off & re-connect a new replacement one. That or splice new red plastic fuel injector plugs into the existing wire harness on the fuel rail which I'd rather avoid if at all possible. Also I'm wondering that since the 4 fuel injectors I recently had replaced were all remanufactured injectors instead of new Honda OEM non-remanufactured maybe they're not fitting as "tight" as new OEM Honda ones would??? Also the metal fuel rails seems to be solid and fine as far as I can tell, so their shouldn't be any "flexing/play" or movement as far as that goes so that's good.

I also took out the air temperature sensor (Honda part # 37880-PE2-013) and was going to replace it with a brand new Honda OEM one which I happened to have in my parts stash but lost the freaking thing before I got back outside to put it on! Before I lost the part I did take some pics of the old one & new one side by side that I'll try to post on here. Since I couldn't find the new one I had planned on putting on I cleaned the old one off well. and put it back on the car.

There is also an all metal "filter looking" thing which by my looking at some Honda diagrams it might be called a "pressure regulator" or "fuel pressure regulator" that is attached by 2 flange bolts to the driver side end of the fuel rail. According to this diagram ( INTAKE MANIFOLD (PGM-FI) (2). Fits: 1989 Honda Accord LXI 4 door 4AT | Sons Honda (http://tinyurl.com/kmpmpqw) ) there is an o-ring that is still not discontinued that goes on this part and Honda calls it "O-ring, pressure regulator". In the diagram this o-ring is part #8, but the pressure regulator that this o-ring goes in is part #7, which if the pressure regulator was still available from Honda it would come with this particular o-ring. I'm not sure my pressure regulator is bad or not since its all metal and you can't take it apart and examine it without destroying it. I tried blowing on the input & output of the pressure regulator but no air could be blown through it. I'm not sure if a new one is supposed to be like that since there might be some sort of valve, etc. inside that opens and closes once pressure and/or fuel passes through it.
Any suggestions, comments, help would be greatly appreciated!

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

Here are the pics of the used & new air temperature sensors side-by-side and the fuel pressure regulator that attatches with 2 flange bolts on the driver side end of the fuel injector metal rail from my previous reply.

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

...another view of the fuel pressure regulator along with some pics of the engine bay in the general area where these parts are located.

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

I should have rotated the 2 engine bay pics for easier viewing before sending so here they are for easier viewing...

[Dr_Snooz]

http://www.3geez.com/forum/how/81283-check-fix-ecu-trouble-codes-pics.html

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

Well, looks like I've ruined the teeth on another torque converter in my '89 LXi sedan automatic. As far as shims from what the damaged teeth look like it appears to me that if anything the bendix on the starter isn't able to reach far enough in to get a good solid contact so wouldn't shims cause this problem to worsen?
In the meantime I'll be trying to figure out why my starter on my '89 LXi coupe w/ 5-speed won't turn over. I changed out the old starter w/ a reman one & still no start. All the fuses look good so I'm going to check or replace starter relay.

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

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[Dr_Snooz]

Interesting problem. To my eye, the ring gear still looks serviceable. Not wonderful, but not worth replacing. The wear on the teeth is uneven. It's more pitted than worn, indicating not a problem with gear mating, but something else. Possibly the ring gear is made of some kind of pot metal that is corroding. Possibly there is some kind of grit getting between the gears as they mesh. The wear on your starter gear above is profound. I wonder if you're getting MT starters when you should be getting AT starters. Something strange is going on, so be alert for outlier possibilities.

On a related note, find a different mechanic. If you are shoveling lots of money into the car and replacing stuff that doesn't help, or goes bad again shortly, you're getting robbed. Find someone new.

[carotman]

This is weird indeed. Reman starter with the wrong specs?

I've never seen this case on 3geez.com, let alone the same thing happening twice on the same car.

Where did the torque converter come from? Used? Reman? New?

[conozo]

There is a spacer that goes on the torque converter. Maybe when Jasper rebuilt it they didnt put it on. I forget where it goes but i bet you can see it in the manual diagram. I think the spacer is 2-3 mm thick. I have a good torque converter and starter that you can have as long as you cover shipping cost from northern Indiana, i would expect $40 or so.

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

What's the code?

The yellow service engine icon light in the dash cluster no longer comes on at all. Sorry I waited so long to reply to your response. I forgot what fixed it since its been a while.

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

Interesting problem. To my eye, the ring gear still looks serviceable. Not wonderful, but not worth replacing. The wear on the teeth is uneven. It's more pitted than worn, indicating not a problem with gear mating, but something else. Possibly the ring gear is made of some kind of pot metal that is corroding. Possibly there is some kind of grit getting between the gears as they mesh. The wear on your starter gear above is profound. I wonder if you're getting MT starters when you should be getting AT starters. Something strange is going on, so be alert for outlier possibilities.

On a related note, find a different mechanic. If you are shoveling lots of money into the car and replacing stuff that doesn't help, or goes bad again shortly, you're getting robbed. Find someone new.


One thing the uneven wearing is making me think is possibly the starter bendix shaft is not extending out far enough when starting the car thereby not making a "solid enough" contact between the teeth on the torque converter's ring gear & the starter's bendix shaft teeth as they mesh together. As far as getting the wrong starter that shouldn't be the case as I have 3 Accords--'89 LX sedan 5-speed, '89 LXi coupe 5-speed, & '89 LXi sedan automatic. On my 2 5-speeds the starter has 3 mounting bolt holes whereas the automatic trans. starter has 2 mounting bolt holes.
One other thing...I have an Optima red top 75-25 AGM starting battery that if the car sits without being started for more than about 3 days it either won't start or is hard to start. Its making me wonder if one or more of those times in the past 2 or 3 years of trying to start the car with a weak battery the starter gear hasn't had enough voltage from the battery to extend the starter gear out enough and/or with enough turning power to turn the ring gear.

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

This is weird indeed. Reman starter with the wrong specs?

I've never seen this case on 3geez.com, let alone the same thing happening twice on the same car.

Where did the torque converter come from? Used? Reman? New?


The torque converter is new not OEM from my mechanic.

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

There is a spacer that goes on the torque converter. Maybe when Jasper rebuilt it they didnt put it on. I forget where it goes but i bet you can see it in the manual diagram. I think the spacer is 2-3 mm thick. I have a good torque converter and starter that you can have as long as you cover shipping cost from northern Indiana, i would expect $40 or so.

That sounds like something that could possibly be causing this problem since a spacer on the torque converter would cause the torque converter to be that much closer to the starter gear thereby enabling more of the length of the splines to make contact between each other, right? I need to look at my factory service manual.

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[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

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[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

Here's 2 starters I have...the one on the left came off my '89 LXi 5-speed coupe & the one on the right came off my '89 LXi auto trans. sedan. You can see in the pics the 5-speed starter has a total of 3 mounting holes & the auto trans. starter has total of 2 mounting holes. The one that was in my chipped teeth '89 LXi auto trans. was one just like the one in the pic on the right with 2 mounting holes.7734

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Of course now I can't get my '89 LXi 5-speed coupe to start. Changed out the starter w/ one I just got from Autozone and still won't start. No clicking, no sounds at all when I turn the key w/ a perfectly good & fully charged battery. I checked all the fuses and they look good so I'm thinking either a relay, clutch switch (the one above the clutch pedal?), or maybe a bad ignition key switch.

[conozo]

Make sure you havent loosened that little wire that plugs into the starter solenoid for your starting issue.

After looking at my torque converter and starter, my wear marks are exactly where yours are, so i think yours is actually lined up. I think you may have some other strange issue going on other than alignment. Transmission stuck when starting, starter engaging when driving, starter staying engaged the entire time, etc. I would have to think that with your kind of wear you would have heard some grinding at some point.

Here are pictures of mine that you can have. Came off of a 1988 Carb
http://honda.conozo.com/pics_3geez/TCandStarter%20(1).jpg
http://honda.conozo.com/pics_3geez/TCandStarter%20(2).jpg
http://honda.conozo.com/pics_3geez/TCandStarter%20(3).jpg
http://honda.conozo.com/pics_3geez/TCandStarter%20(4).jpg
http://honda.conozo.com/pics_3geez/TCandStarter%20(5).jpg
http://honda.conozo.com/pics_3geez/TCandStarter%20(6).jpg

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately and I'm wondering if a weak starting battery caused this. Maybe trying to start the car with a weak battery caused the starter to not have enough "oomph" to fully extend out the starter gear and/or enough torque to turn the torque converter thus causing the ring gear & starter gear to "jump" or "chatter" against each other as the insufficient voltage starter tries to spin with low torque.

[fuelinjected89AccLxi]

As far as my starting issue on my '89 Lxi coupe 5-speed the small wire that connects to the spade terminal on the starter solenoid is connected and tight enough fitting imo. I'm leaning more to a bad clutch pedal switch. Went to Aotozone the other day and of course bought the wrong switch. I think I need the switch that is right above the clutch pedal but when I went back to Autozone the other day they couldn't find it with their searching and the associate was kind of an a-hole...I hate going to Auto$h!t in the first place but that just makes me want to avoid 'em all the more. And they hardly ever have enough people in the store working no matter what time of the day I go.
If its not the switch the next thing I'm going to check or replace is starter relay. I took off 3 relays plus a (diode?) all located kind of hard to get to around the core support/headlights. I think one relay on the driver side is for the A/C...I'll need to look at my manuals to identify the others.