ITB SETUP

So i'm about 50% complete with building the itb setup... I'll post pictures in a little bit... but on the other hand I need suggestions for tuning.. I know I gotta gol full stand alone... I need something thats user friendly and not way way expensive... any suggestions?

I also talked to somebody about using chrome? anyone have any experience with this?

Ok here's pics as promised...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...f/ec824f28.jpghttp://www.imagestation.com/picture/...4/ec824f06.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...2/ec824ed9.jpghttp://www.imagestation.com/picture/...9/ec824e98.jpg

And just a random spare picture... Any up for some Forza?
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...b/ec824e5e.jpg
Thats the old accord seat btw...

greatdane uses crome...

Megasquirt if you don't mind soldering

Electromotive if you got some money Megasquirt if your on a budget

What do you think about Greedy E-manage Ultimate and some sort of MSD Box?... I need to figure out a distributor replacement because of the vacuum advance... And suggestions?.. I'd prefer and after market electronic of some sort rather than converting to obd-1... So I'm open for any help I can get... BTW I'll post up pics of progress on the itbs tonite

what r those? ive decided on emanage for fuel.. i just need to figure out what i can do instead of converting to obd1 ie electronic distro...

There crank fired so you won't need a dizzy you just put a blanking plate over the hole the dizzy went into. All you ahve to do is weld or screw on a trigger disk onto the crank pulley and then mount a sensor above it and wire it into what ever ECU/Ignition system you go for. Only issue might be is if your still running A/C and P/S could be a tight squeeze to fit the trigger disk will still go on but you'd have to come up with a ingenious way of fitting it without fouling on the pulleys or belts. shame we can fit anything to a flywheel that would be easier!!

Thats whats up.. .That sounds like exactly what I was lookin for...
So sorry i didn't get the pics up last nite... Drank a little more than I planned to.. lol... But here they are.. I know there not that pretty, But the point here was functionality... Plus once I slather a coat of paint on there they'll look damn good... thet bondo looking stuff around the VS. is DevCon...

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...g?t=1166288819
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...g?t=1166288855
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...g?t=1166288904
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...g?t=1166288927
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...g?t=1166288948

Here's an update...
These pics were takin with my phone, n it's not in the best shape...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...e/eb07ceae.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...7/eb07ceaa.jpg
You can see the brass "nozzles" I inserted thats so I can hook up my vaccum log and maintain brake pressure and function of other sensors...
Now I know this Prolly wont work the best, I don't expect it to, so save your flaming for another thread..... But, I made the vaccum log so that I could maintain function of all stock sensors including the cold idle and iavc or what ever the hell that thing is on the front of the mani... Anywayz.. I'm going to attempt to run this with a stock ecu.. Idle can be manually adjusted on the itb's so maybe, just maybe I can get it to run. I don't expect it to run great.. And I'm sure it'll bog its ass off cuase the ecu doesn't contain the scale to cope with assload of air it'll be getting... But I'ma see what she does...
The full set-up isn't done I still gotta polish the inside of the trumpets, butterflies and top of the manifold. remove the casting by where it enters the head and slap a coat of paint on her n she'll be ready to ge...

Full standalone ECU with Crank fired ignition and self mapable with laptop or PDA Electromotive is the best you can buy ready made Megasquirt is like a Home special DIY self solder kit, does the job nearly as well but at fraction of the cost. IF you don't mind soldering and are good with electricals go for that!! You'll save yourself hundreds.

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Originally Posted by rjudgey

Full standalone ECU with Crank fired ignition and self mapable with laptop or PDA Electromotive is the best you can buy ready made Megasquirt is like a Home special DIY self solder kit, does the job nearly as well but at fraction of the cost. IF you don't mind soldering and are good with electricals go for that!! You'll save yourself hundreds.

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also megasquirt is always updateing with new features to keep people coming back and they have knock control, launch control, boost control, traction control, advanced spark and fuel control, as well as almost coil on plug spark.

I've thought about using those secondary plates for ITB's but they do not seal well, so you might want to consider getting everything machined with new plates so that the butterflies can seal all the way. A vacuum leak can make it hard to tune the TPS and other parts I assume.
With a vacuum gauge you can see how much vacuum you're dropping in each runner. You would like to see around 24"-28" at your log, assuming it's the same value stock as carb manifold vacuum.

If I was doing this might have done those air horns differently if I had access to a nice saw and cut them so they can butt together in a straight line, even if it means removing material between each horn, like this.
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/L/3890.JPG
It may or may not be better it's just my preference.

I also prefer Full-Radius vs Exponential-Radius.
http://www.mgbmga.com/images/airhorns.gif



I hope you can get this thing tuned and don't end up with a low end bog or having to deal with a high or erratic idle all the time.
It's good work :D keep it up.













Another tip you might want to try for your log. When I was experimenting with my check valves, I hooked a few check valves from the intake manifold to a single log/cannister allowing pressure to drop faster in a cannister. Then hooked up a single vacuum line with a vacuum restrictor from the cannister, back to the intake manifold to allow a slow evening out of pressure between the vacuum cannister and the intake manifold. The slower drop in vacuum may or may not be helpful in your situation but may be worth a shot.

Vacuum Restrictor - VACU-TITE! P/N 47311

you could hook it up like this and see which sensors/solenoids work best from the cannister and what works best from the log.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...acuum_help.jpg

that looks like it'll work a treat jigger
as long as you have a wee vac port so you can run a map sensor and a tps you should be able to make it run all right
the hardest part would be idle control

is jigga even doing this still since this thread is like hella old? i would love to see more progress.

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Originally Posted by stat1K

is jigga even doing this still since this thread is like hella old? i would love to see more progress.

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I sincerely hope not.. and I'm not even going to get into why. But I'm pretty sure he was just playing around with this anyway.
Hopefully by now he's gotten an aebs or S2 pro series with an aftermarket b series TB.

Why would you hope not? I'm really curious.. Cause I just got done installing them

why exactly did you angle them all funky? just wondering. how do they run?

Angled funny so that the top of the stacks didn't have to be cut..

No it don't run yet.. I gotta get some new vac lines...

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Originally Posted by jigga89SEi

Why would you hope not? I'm really curious.. Cause I just got done installing them

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Oh no..that's what I get for talking shit, I guess.
I'll come back here and post again, analyzing this like any other modification, if you want me to.
But first, what were/are your goals, what are you trying to achieve with this? I figured you just did it to see if you could.

Really to the point I am now.. I have no expectations.. I just wanna get it done.. Main goal, be different.. I'm actually hoping to reach 180-200ish before nitrous at the wheels.. The programs I used at the machine shop I worked at, projected it a little higher, but that was at the crank... I can tell you right now, before the itb's, it was not close to that I'm pretty sure.. I will need extensive tuning and alot of testing before it gets to its max...

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Originally Posted by jigga89SEi

Really to the point I am now.. I have no expectations.. I just wanna get it done.. Main goal, be different..

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That's basically what I thought. What you've done isn't really a performance improving thing.
Basically, the main reason why I'm saying this is you're still using the oem manifold, and that thing is junk. I even think the integra gsr 2 stage is garbage, too, and it's Much better than the accord setup. The accord IM is just poorly designed. Its small little runners have too many curves/cross sectional area changes, the outside runners have horrible angles into the head, and the transition area where the butterflies are sucks too. Not to mention that whole area needs to be ported to even match together at all. Then you're using the oem secondaries as throttle bodies. They were not meant for that.. and they're too small for your hp goals.
I really just don't like ITBs either. Never once have I heard a good argument explaining why they're supposedly superior performance wise. A properly set up conventional intake with the throttle open is just like an ITB setup with the throttles open. If the plenum is big enough, and the runners have a nice taper into it, the air flow is basically analogous to the ITB setup. Shit, if anything, I see the ITBs as being a tiny bit more of a restriction. The cross sectional area around each little throttle has to be bigger to compensate for the area the blade takes up, and any change in direction causes a flow restriction, esp with a high velocity area like the runner. With a plenum style, you can oversize the throttle body. And ITBs still have a plenum anyway, if you have an airbox. If you don't have that, your motor is breathing warmer air. Maybe okay on the dyno with the hood open, but actually driving it would cost power vs the outside air ducting. All things including cost considered, I would take an AIR carbon fiber or full-race IM over the twm induction, or any other ITBs any day. People say you get better throttle response with ITBs, I call bs on that one, too. I think that's a myth that came from the days of carburetion. With individual carbs vs a single carb, that could be true, depending. My vac/boost gauge moves just as fast as I can possibly move my foot with a plenum style manifold.
Performance debate aside, with the ITBs, you definitely end up with more complexity. You haev the airbox/filter/ducting to f with, if you don't want your motor breathing underhood heated air, then complexity as far a connecting everything that requires a vacuum source or measurement of vacuum, like your pcv, iac valve, map, vac to the brakes, and making sure they don't interfere with the map's signal. I see it being a challenge to get an accurate vac signal to the map sensor with all of that shit simultaneously connected through small ports on each runner. That's why some people with ITBs do "alpha n" or whatever the f it's called where they meter fuel off tps and rpm, instead of map vs rpm. So then you have more complexity with tuning.
If your goal changes to function, instead of just having something different, once again, snag the aebs or S2 pro series, with a good (64-68mm?)TB..
You'll have to port the head to match the intake, it took me about 3 1/2 hrs to do it, if I remember correctly, but that will further help performance.

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Originally Posted by Accordtheory

I really just don't like ITBs either.

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I think that explains alot right there....


Jigga..i say keep going with it...they are already on the car..its not like you need it to DD or anything...get it up and running and tune it.


Plus id really like to see an A20 running ITB's :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Accordtheory

People say you get better throttle response with ITBs, I call bs on that one, too. I think that's a myth that came from the days of carburetion. With individual carbs vs a single carb, that could be true, depending.

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I agree because with carbs the fuel is metered at the venturi, thats it! It doesn't rely on sensors like EFI.

I would think the EFI setup would need some version of synchonization like the carb does so that the single TPS or other sensor will be in sych with each runner. I would probably try to treat and tune it like 4 single cylinder efi motors each with it's own individual ECU and MAP and the only connection each cylinder would share is the Ignition Timing, RPM, TPS.

Which brings up the question: Do they even make single cylinder EFI motors? I think for most applications they still use carbs.
If you find a single cylinder 4stroke EFI motor then you might want to take some notes, because that could be your ticket to tuning your motor


Still though any progress with this build will help the next person wanting to try ITB's so it's defintely worth the effort.

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Originally Posted by A20A1

Which brings up the question: Do they even make single cylinder EFI motors? I think for most applications they still use carbs.
If you find a single cylinder 4stroke EFI motor then you might want to take some notes, because that could be your ticket to tuning your motor.

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My friends GasGas 450(bike) is a single cylinder EFI, it's kind of a pain in the ass...

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Originally Posted by 87roach

My friends GasGas 450(bike) is a single cylinder EFI, it's kind of a pain in the ass...

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Interesting. :)

Because the way I look at it, ITB's should be treated like 1 cylinder engines, and if a true 1 cylinder engines doesn't perform well with EFI, then why should 4 one cylinder engines perform well.



I'm confused though... why do they switch from MAP to TPS on ITB's?
I don't see how TPS can sense load. On carbed motors load is sensed by vacuum in the venturis and they are backed up by emulsion tubes so that the fuel isn't overly rich as rpm raises.
The equivalent of the emulsion tube is probably a rpm based fuel maps in EFI, yes/no?
How much good does the MAP do, even for single tb setups? In carbed motors once the manifold vacuum drops to 0 and you're running off the venturi signal. What does EFI use after the vacuum is all gone, another fuel map?

This is probaly why I never swapped to EFI... but with a good wideband and programmable Engine Management it would be worth it.

I'm excited to see the results to this just because its cool. I dig the angled tops, too. :)

As far as accordtheory, don't let him get you down. Just have fun and be careful. ;)

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Originally Posted by 87roach

My friends GasGas 450(bike) is a single cylinder EFI, it's kind of a pain in the ass...

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I think that has more to do with the fact that its a gas gas :kekeke:


Yamaha has a new supermotard 250cc bike out, and it runs great...they also have up to 700cc ATV's and stuff..and it seems like they do a really good job with it

Well, sorry for my negativity. It wouldn't be perceived as negative if jigga hadn't already put time into this though. I'm just trying to put some ideas/info out for thought. I was going to post up a link to h-t about the ITBs vs single TB discussion, but I guess that would also be perceived as negative, so f it. The secondaries as ITBs can probably still be made to work, and if something is learned, that's enough, I guess.