Konis are in..prelimaries!

Well I finally got the konis and new sway bar bushings in tonight in and I took the old dx for a test drive. I took it on a road that would normally rock my brains with the tokicos. Normally I would ride on it at about 5-10mph and would have to creap over the larger holes. Tonight I took it at about 20mph, and the konis reacted to it like champs. I have only driven on them for about 5-10 miles so far, so I cant give a good explanation, but I took them on roads that would normally make me go "oh shit, thats rough". On every road the car handled amazing. Yes it still had 'some' bounce, but thats because the roads I went on are wavy and the pavement is so uneven all over it. So far I cant believe how much of an improvement they have made. I took it in a dirt parking lot with pot holes filled with water, which are normally a big no no...tonight with the konis, it just put a big ass smile on my face when I didnt bounce all over creation.

The car feels awesome, it seems to roll over bumps, take them and keep on going. Imagine it like this.. Take the smooth ride of the tokicos, and completely take the bounce out of it. I know thats hard to imagine, but so far im giving these things an A+. I was afraid that they would be harsh and would break my ass..in no way are they like this.

My results may seem a little premature, but ive driven the roads so many times with the tokicos and I remember oh to well how they felt with the tokicos. Now with the konis I can tell what they did make.

Thanks Jim, you da man. I will type another one of these tommorrow when I get back to college. After that I will have the experience of an hour and a half drive, plus hitting bridge crossings at 80mph. (That was a near death experience of floating with the tokicos).

Hmm..alignment doesnt seem off though, I dont get it.
Guess im off to the alignment shop anyway tommorrow!

Nate.

damn... that just makes me want to get them even more... where did you buy your set from Nate.....???....

Glad ya like'em nate. Keep in mind that your rear tokico's may not be in the best condition and some of the bounce your senseing my be from the front and rear ends not being on the same page.

If I recall the place nate got his koni's from doesn't have as good of a price as you can get elsewhere. He got his on a trade basis. His sticker company did some business in trade for the struts.

Yea jim I think my rear tokicos are a little blasted, they are leaking I think. I took my car to the alignment shop today, and lets just say the technician was far from happy. He called my car a son of a bitch atleast 2 times..and I heard him mumble something about kids lowering their cars..so I laughed to let him know how close I really was standing behind him. He glanced at me like "Oh shit, I didnt know you were standing there"

The car sat to low, and they rubbed my crx lip off the front of the ramp (I made the oh shit face when it did that, it didnt hurt it though) and wouldnt come over a bump that was underneath the alignment machine, the transmission case got stuck on it and the car wouldnt move..haha. They slid the big peice of metal forward, and then 2 guys had to get on the front of my car and lift the fender wells up so the transmission case would clear. The transmission case sat on top of it throughout the whole process. I showed them how to adjust the ingalls kits, but once again they were not able to align my car fully with the kit. I have a .08 camber problem on one side and a 1.3 camber problem on the other. I asked why they were different, but they said each side was exactly the same out of alignment. I also asked what that would mean tire wear wise and they said if I rotated my tires every 5-7k miles then I should be ok. I had this problem before so its really no surprise. Like I said before the car didnt feel like it was out of alignment, but after looking at their computer screen at the shop I could tell how much the car was really out of it; Its so unnoticable to the naked eye. I havent riden on many roads that are super out of wack since last night, but I drove on the same roads here that I have driven on for a long time and every bump felt that much better. No more bounce over the bridge crossings and just feels so controlled. I pushed the car hard into the turns, taking 35mph turns at 60, and the car held the road like it hasnt ever before. This may be in part to the new sway bar bushings but I can definetely notice how the reduce that front end push.

Overall its still going good, and nothing has gone flying yet.

Wee!

Nate.

Here are the install pictures:

http://www.pennswoods.net/~rita/newstruts.jpg

Nate.

good post nate. testimonies are always good. I'm purchasing my struts next week and it looks like i'll be going with the konis.

iis that wood all the way on the top of ur strut?

No that's a koni bump stop they are a heavy duty light brown foam. They are really good bump stops.

Yes I carved that bump stop out of wood with my pocket knife from boy scouts, thanks for the recommendation to do that jim..

Nate.

Quote:

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Originally posted by 89AccordNate
Yes I carved that bump stop out of wood with my pocket knife from boy scouts, thanks for the recommendation to do that jim..

Nate.

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I need those for the front and rear, can you carve me some?? :tongue:

Ok, after 2 days of driving on them, I can give my final results!

I drove on the dreaded concrete road 4 times today. With my tokicos the car felt like a bucking bronco and I could only go about 15mph on it. I feel like an idiot because my car bounced so bad down the street. Remember I am running a 2.25+ drop..less then 2 fingers gap between the tire and the fender.

Today with the konis the car felt so much more controlled...I took the street at 30mph happily and had little to no bounce. I could feel the rear tokicos bouncing a little, but the front konis took it like they should. My head no longer bobbed and no my ass didnt get a killing. The car FEELS like its not even lowered, I can see now how the car should ride with the correct struts. The speed bumps around my house I can take slightly faster now. After I go over the bump I dont feel the bump 3 times after that with the konis. The ride is really controlled, not harsh and it feels awesome. I push the car hard into the turns and it absorbs the bumps correctly. Now for a set of rear konis and im really in business!

Jim gets the 2 thumbs up once again, I wrote this just to back up his point that a car with more then a 1.5" drop deserves these struts and ONLY these struts. Save your bucks, fuck tokico and buy some konis..you wont regret it.

Nate.

Not to flame you or anything, but don't you think you Weapon R coilovers have anything to do with your bouncy ride. I have sold every brand of suspension product out there and I've never had a problem with Tokico struts. However cheap coilovers and cheap springs(ie; weapon r, arospeed,r1 racing, and countless others) will make your car ride horrible.

Quote:

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Originally posted by G-MO
Not to flame you or anything, but don't you think you Weapon R coilovers have anything to do with your bouncy ride. I have sold every brand of suspension product out there and I've never had a problem with Tokico struts. However cheap coilovers and cheap springs(ie; weapon r, arospeed,r1 racing, and countless others) will make your car ride horrible.

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MYTH #1 blame the springs or coilovers for bounce.
It is not the fault of the spring or coilover if their is bounce. It is due to a sturt that does not have the dampning rates to effectively control the spring or coilover. Tokico has chosen not to valve the H.P. sturt for duty with lowering springs. Even with the softest lower spring made for the 3rd gen accord the H.P.'s are to weak to dampen effectively. For what ever reason they seem to work alright in the rear but not the front. Tokico H.P.'s should only be sold as a performance strut for car's running stock spring rates, that way you won't be overwhelming the struts abilties. If you call tokico (tiffany is a excellent tech their) and tell the spring rates of the lowering spirngs your running they will tell you to use their illumina sturt to that application, if your lucky they make the illumina for your application, unfortunately they don't for our cars.
H.P.s are at best 15% stiffer than stock sturts, the softest spring rates for our cars are 22% stiffer than stock, just that 7% difference over what the sturt is estimated to offer has members reporting bounce in the front and a sensation of being to soft.

BTW, the same problems were reported with Ground-control coilovers and tokico struts. When they were replaced with Koni's, problem solved. And I even tried running Bilstein H.D.s, they don't have enough dampening either. When I had them revalved stiffer, they finally had what it takes.

So,

KYB GR-2's valved the same as stock use with stock springs they are OEM replacements (KYB needs to offer their AGX strut for our cars. I would not recommend the AGX for any spring rate over 350lbs).

Tokico H.P's estimated by tokico to be possibly 15% stiffer than stock, not enough for lowering springs, at least not in the front.

Bilstein H.D.'s Bilstein says they are designed to be 15% stiffer for all applications. Just like the Tokico's this is not enough. However once they are revalved they did feel like a better performing strut that the Koni special's I was running.
Excellent tech to speak to goes by the name of Jack

Koni's specials with the ability to adjust rebound are a superior choice for using with our cars. I would not recommend them for spring rates over 360lbs unless you have Koni revalve them. None of the springs or coilover's offered for our cars except the drop zone coilovers are over 360lbs. The drop zone coilovers are 450lbs in the front BTW. Excellent tech to speak to goes by the name of Gordon.

It looks to me like you have no travel left. Once you set the car back on the ground then you will basically be using the bumpstop as part of the spring. I hope that is a pretty soft bumpstop so it at least gets progressively harder as the suspension compresses.

The weapon R coilovers have nothing to do with my bounce mr. car shop owner. Although coilovers are notorious for riding 'rougher' then springs I have proven your theory wrong. I ran tokico Hp's for almost a year and I HATED them. They bounced all over creation and I couldnt stand them anymore. Once I installed my konis everything was fine. I no longer bounce all over the road, and the car feels incredibly controlled.

Pearldrop: I am not sure how much suspension travel I am running but the car feels like it has enough suspension. I can drive comfortably on rough roads now and take bumps like a champ. I may be adding a set of rear konis pretty soon because the rear tokicos are throwing the rear typical tokico rebound onto the konis.

Nate

True, struts/shocks do dampen the harmonic resonance, but struts/shock can only do so much. In looking for my spring/shock combination I found a lot of spring available for the Accord, and most were crap. Pretty much the only really good springs I found were the H&R and Eibach. I found my information not by reading the propaganda on the back of product box or on their web site, but by talking to people that own the same type of spring. What names kept coming up? That’s right Eibach and H&R, well the weaponR and arospeed would come up with the riceboys. I went with Eibach and a Bilstein setup, the bilstein not strong enough for the Eibach. I don’t go driving down the street bouncing around, the only thing I have notice is that when I come out of a hard corner my car doesn’t settle quick enough. Where are these cheaper companies Formula One programs or drag racing programs, or even SCCA programs? You true like your Konis or did you buy them because you liked the Fast and the Furious (not make a personal attack)? Their reason I ask this is because everyone I known hated their Konis and got rid of them quickly. The reason they hated them was because they blew out in months, if yours haven’t good for you maybe got some defects or you just don’t drive the corners hard.

Quote:

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Originally posted by rallyeNate
True, struts/shocks do dampen the harmonic resonance, but struts/shock can only do so much. In looking for my spring/shock combination I found a lot of spring available for the Accord, and most were crap. Pretty much the only really good springs I found were the H&R and Eibach. I found my information not by reading the propaganda on the back of product box or on their web site, but by talking to people that own the same type of spring. What names kept coming up? That’s right Eibach and H&R, well the weaponR and arospeed would come up with the riceboys. I went with Eibach and a Bilstein setup, the bilstein not strong enough for the Eibach. I don’t go driving down the street bouncing around, the only thing I have notice is that when I come out of a hard corner my car doesn’t settle quick enough. Where are these cheaper companies Formula One programs or drag racing programs, or even SCCA programs? You true like your Konis or did you buy them because you liked the Fast and the Furious (not make a personal attack)? Their reason I ask this is because everyone I known hated their Konis and got rid of them quickly. The reason they hated them was because they blew out in months, if yours haven’t good for you maybe got some defects or you just don’t drive the corners hard.

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One detail you left out of all this,

https://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?...=8611#post8611

Your running cut sportlines
If you'd really done your research you'd know that Sportlines are 62% stiffer in the front and only 21% stiffer in the rear. So the influence of the springs is to increase front roll stiffness 41% over a stock sprung car. Increasing front roll stiffness, which INCREASE'S understeer. Even Eibachs own tech's stopped when they told me that rear number and double checked it to make sure. Now take a look at the H&R's they are 22%stiffer in the front and 41% stiffer in the rear. So the H&R springs actually reduce understeer by shifting the roll stiffness from the front to rear.


1.If theirs only so much a sturt can do, either revalve it or replace it with a strut that CAN DO, if a chassis engineer tried to say that to his boss, he'd be fired.
2.Who's a reading a box? Not me.
3.. I talked to all the spring makers, I visited lots of import forums and talked to the owners of lots of different springs. H&R came out on top for the number of positive replies followed by eibach, but the majority of replies weren't from eibach owners but from people that were saying that's what they wanted, I take that with a gain of salt.
4. I also did the same reasearch with struts, called all the makers. I thing stood out, only 2 of the makers actually have data on compression and repoud rates. Unfortunately, (koni and bilstein) neither company chooses to use the same method's to get those rates. The rating math is different and the volocity rates are different as well. Making comparisions very difficult.
5. I'll give you credit for realizing that something is not right with your bilsteins. I ran them with spirngs that are far softer than what your running and I noticed that they did not dampen large and medium bumps they would bounce once,....ever single time, very annoying. And they they would become unsettled while going over really ruff pavement, they would chatter or vibrate rapidly. Both sighns that they lack the dampning for stiffer springs. When Koni's were installed all the bad behavior was banished and the car felt much more tossible and lively, it was a night and day difference. And when I revalved the Bilsteins their was also no comparison from how they were before.
6. What on earth does a movie I've never seen have to do with running better struts? I do have to question motive on that one.
I've never seen a trend of Konis failing, in fact I dare anyone to do a search on any search engine Koni, you won't find such a trend, what you will find is that among people that know what their talking about that they are the number one recommended strut to go with. And visit other automotive forums, its the same story.That not to say when you have other choices that we don't have that you can't find happiness with another strut. KYB AGX, Tokico Illumina's Bilstein Sports, and their are full bodies coilovers that we can't get as well.
7. "I must not be taking corners to hard." Oh my, you really don't know me. Who do you know that runs test's on mountain foot hill roads that max's out ever signal corner for 25 to 30 miles. All the while I'm either buried in the throttle, max cornering or max braking. I could smell burning brakes during slow hairpins. All to test a new set of struts, I did all 3 of my setup's that way, the Bilstiens, the Konis and the revalved Bilsteins. And I don't stop with that, every corner that I can take I do, why not I had a awesome setup it was fun as heck. Here's a pic of the road I'm talking about.

The koni's for our cars aren't about being stiff, they are about proper control of the spring, they are firm, not stiff.

rallyeNate: I have a few words for you: SHUT THE FUCK UP. You dont know what your talking about. True you may have talked to people and did all of that but it sounds like to me that you are talking to ricers and obviously you are someone who knows little to nothing about suspension. Springs may play a part in the suspension but to call all of us out and tell us that konis are crap you are asking for it. And your also putting a great insult in jims face, something which I dont take lightly because I know the amount of effort that he puts into finding this information out for us. If you want to post, go elsewhere, we dont want to hear your comments out of your ass calling name brands "ricer" when you have no information to back up why they are bad springs. I dont give a fuck if you talked to god......if god didnt know suspension would you still take his word for it? Obviously you would.

And for you to recommend bilstein when jim has talked to their techs, has every bit of information down of why not to use them, and you come on here and tell people koni is crap and bilstein is the way to go?

Get some information straight, run some konis and then come back with your 'useful' information. Yes i run konis because of the fast and the furious you fucking homo. Actually I run them because your mom likes the stiffer ride when shes sitting on my face.

Learn some real info, then come on here and make claims, until then.....quit making lame posts against what jim has proven correct all along.

Nate.

:werd:

I don't think he's recommending the Bilstiens as much as he's saying their not that bad in his opinion.

HAHAHA 89AccordNate, you make me laugh. To make your previous comment, did you get off Jim’s nuts to say that or did that come out your ass like everything else you say? Listen kid, before you start trashing me you might take the time to find out the depth of my intelligence. What the hell does your opinion count anyway, get your crappy suspension out of here. Before you open that dick receptacle you call a mouth, do your own work and quit riding the nuts of someone else. That Crack Jack Box suspension doesn’t count as a real suspension. It reminds me of you, bleach blonde Abercrombie& Fitch look-a-likes. Go back to watching Dawson’s Creek; it’s the only thing you’re good at! Well we know you like crappy auto parts, you are sacred of gay people, you get your information for crappy import magazines like “Turbo”, and you like 50+yr old women. Come on you can tell us, are you a high school freshman, are you even old enough to drive, the YO MAMA are very childish.

As far as you go Jim, you sound like you have done your research and know your parts. But ever since you told me I couldn’t perform the driving techniques that I all ready do and can do just about anytime because my car is not a Porsche, any credit you could ever hope to earn will never happen. Why can’t I do them, does Porsche have a different kind physics to them? Is that why you pay so much for them? Do things fall up in a Porsche? As far as that picture goes, nice scenery but the road look kind of puss. Where’s the hair pin, the hard 90, the decreasing radius corners, the exterior banking corners. Looks like a cool 90mph drive with grandma. What the hell is with the quoting the entire post, why cant you just type the post number?
Koni’s are a great shock, explain why everybody I know that takes them rallying ends up with a blown adjuster and fluid leaking and most people at autocross end up with a blown adjuster? It’s okay to say they’re crap.

Quote:

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Originally posted by 89AccordNate
The weapon R coilovers have nothing to do with my bounce mr. car shop owner. Although coilovers are notorious for riding 'rougher' then springs I have proven your theory wrong. I ran tokico Hp's for almost a year and I HATED them. They bounced all over creation and I couldnt stand them anymore. Once I installed my konis everything was fine. I no longer bounce all over the road, and the car feels incredibly controlled.

Pearldrop: I am not sure how much suspension travel I am running but the car feels like it has enough suspension. I can drive comfortably on rough roads now and take bumps like a champ. I may be adding a set of rear konis pretty soon because the rear tokicos are throwing the rear typical tokico rebound onto the konis.

Nate

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If you don't think that a 3 inch drop via a sleeve style coilover effects your ride quality,you are a fool. i guarentee that if you put a set of eibach or H&R springs on there your ride quality would drastically increase. When you lower a vehicle that much,nothing in the suspension works like it did at stock vehicle height. Cv boots break,cv joints go bad, alignments are always off a little no matter what you do on a vehicle lowered that far. The components just weren't designed for it. If you wanted true performance out of your suspension you should be using a true coilover setup, hands down. You can call every company in the world and ask all the questions you want but I deal with these issues on a daily basis. I've seen what works and what doesn't . If you believe everything manufactures tell you,you are in grave danger my friend.Things that they say just bolt on sometimes don't and that's reality. Ask any mechanic. These new companies have marketing programs that focus on cosmetics of your vehicle. Weapon R is one such company. They are not performance oriented at all .They manufacture cheap parts for your everday user that knows no better. Where is their research? Where is their rally car or GT car? Those people laugh at companies like that. I stick with products i know perform and have seen the results on hundreds of vehicles I have worked on. And weapon R is not one of them.....

Quote:

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Originally posted by rallyeNate


As far as you go Jim, you sound like you have done your research and know your parts. But ever since you told me I couldn’t perform the driving techniques that I all ready do and can do just about anytime because my car is not a Porsche, any credit you could ever hope to earn will never happen. Why can’t I do them, does Porsche have a different kind physics to them? Is that why you pay so much for them? Do things fall up in a Porsche? As far as that picture goes, nice scenery but the road look kind of puss. Where’s the hair pin, the hard 90, the decreasing radius corners, the exterior banking corners. Looks like a cool 90mph drive with grandma. What the hell is with the quoting the entire post, why cant you just type the post number?
Koni’s are a great shock, explain why everybody I know that takes them rallying ends up with a blown adjuster and fluid leaking and most people at autocross end up with a blown adjuster? It’s okay to say they’re crap.

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What are you talking about? You can drive however it please's you. You can pretend that spring tuning doesn't matter, that it doesn't effect the dynamics of the car by increasing understeer or reducing it. You can also ignore the benefits of proper control of your spirngs by the struts. Their are ways and means to improve the handling of your car, if you are willing to listen to the facts.
I don't just pull this stuff out of thin air ya know, it's imformation avaliable to anyone. The Porsche arguement in nonsensicle and a deversion tactic. Fact is the same identical accord one with your setup and one with my setup driven from point A to point B, my car will arrive thier quicker and will be more enjoyable and rewarding to drive. By controling the spirngs better it will handle weight transfers more effectively letting more power be applied more offten. And when the pavement isn't smooth they will keep the tire in contact with the road more offten, also promoting adhesion and speed. Increasing the rear spring rates more than the front sprng rates were increased reduces understeer and will allow the rear of the car to carry more cornering loads again improving cornering speeds. Do the reverse like the sportlines and you will increase your understeer and be able to carry less speed threw corners because the front is having to deal with much more cornering forces. The single best thing you could do to your setup is to install a Suspension techniques rear sway bar to increase your rear roll stiffness, keep the front bar in, just add the rear S/T bar or have sannerprefab bend a 7/8" copy of the stock rear bar.

As far as your friends experience with koni's rallying would be the most detrimental to ANY strut of any activity their is. I went ahead and did a post a 2 different honda/acura forums on the subject. You can view the post and replies here.
http://board.hondasociety.com/showth...threadid=67368

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/t69694.html

Notice that in both replies the moderators of the suspension section replied. Lord accord is the moderator at Honda Society.

Your previous reply was quoted completly because their were to many points spread out threwout the body of the text that to edit it would really had screwed things up and I also would not want to look like I was removing points I did not agree with for a easy discussion. Nor did I want ANY misunderstanding as far as misquoting goes. And your crazy if you think someone is going to bounce back and forth between points with a link, that's not going to happen. We have the "quote" system for a reason.