Megasquirting a A20A3

I am now wondering if this might not me an accord a20 after all, I have an air cleaner box from an 88 accord lxi, and it will not fit on to my intake manifold, are the intakes different between accords and preludes maybe? I don't think that it makes much difference either way, I would just like to know where this motor came from...

Hey, cygnus mind if I ask what you did about the EGR? did you delete it? if so what did you use to plug the hole in the exhaust manifold?

Since finals are all said and done, I have now been able to spend alot of time tonight on the car, the old engine is almost out... and I have the new engine as close to ready to go as I can make it without the tranny and what not off of the original motor.
Good Lord willing, I should have the new motor in there before this time tomorrow... Then the wiring and fueling fun begins! ;)
Have a great one y'all

Update, old engine is now OUT!!!! I am headed to bed now, having just washed 20 years of oil and dirt off of me... :)

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

I am now wondering if this might not me an accord a20 after all, I have an air cleaner box from an 88 accord lxi, and it will not fit on to my intake manifold, are the intakes different between accords and preludes maybe? I don't think that it makes much difference either way, I would just like to know where this motor came from...

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If it's an A20A3 it had to come from either an Accord or a Prelude. There was an earlier and a later version of the A20A3, and it's possible the air boxes aren't the same. I wouldn't use the air boxes anyway though. Just make a cold air intake or even short ram for now. Air box = useless crap.

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

Hey, cygnus mind if I ask what you did about the EGR? did you delete it? if so what did you use to plug the hole in the exhaust manifold?

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My engine is a mutt. I started with an A18 block which is just a 1.8L version of the A20. The 1.8L head though is not so great so I put an A20 head on it and had the block bored out to fit A20 pistons. So now it essentially is an A20. For the intake manifold I modified one from a B18A1 (LS Integra). The EGR port was cut off and the hole brazed over. In your case it would be easier to just leave the valve in place and not connect it to anything. Or you could make a block off plate for it. Or you could saw off the EGR tube at the exhaust manifold and plug it there. You would still need to leave the valve in place or make a block off plate though.

JBWeld works good for plugging intake manifold holes. Don't use it on the exhaust.


That's cool you got the engine out. One thing to watch for, the engine mounts *might* not be exactly the same between the two engines. If that's the case, use the mounts that came with the car. They will bolt up to the new engine.


On the AFR map; I kinda figured you wouldn't be able to use the split maps. Tuning will be harder without the wideband but not impossible. I've never done it so check the MS forums for tips. I would highly recommend picking up a wide band at the earliest opportunity though. Very much worth it. The Innovate LC-1 is about the best deal around and well supported.


C|

Thanks for the info, I guess I will just leave it unpluged for now, as I need this thing running... in other news, The new sending line for the fuel is installed, and I learned that they didn't want you inside the under hood fuse panel... and that the bezel around the guage pod will not survive me rolling on it... :(
*goes to look for new fuse box, and bezel*

I am planning to tie into the harness right under the box for power to the injectors and the ECU itself, do you see any issue with this plan? also what size fuse you reckon I should run on the injector line? 15 amp sound good?

Have a great one,
Christopher

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

Thanks for the info, I guess I will just leave it unpluged for now, as I need this thing running... in other news, The new sending line for the fuel is installed, and I learned that they didn't want you inside the under hood fuse panel... and that the bezel around the guage pod will not survive me rolling on it... :(
*goes to look for new fuse box, and bezel*

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I managed to get into my fuse box but it wasn't easy. Took awhile to figure out how it came apart. Good thing Accords are common in junkyards.

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

I am planning to tie into the harness right under the box for power to the injectors and the ECU itself, do you see any issue with this plan? also what size fuse you reckon I should run on the injector line? 15 amp sound good?

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As long as it's switched power it's fine. 15 amps is good.

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

Christopher

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Hey, that's my name! :flash:


C|

update: I have a replacement fuse box, and The Engine is IN!!! :)
Now I am off to get more beer and some wiring supplies... should have her ready to try to start by this time tomorrow... good lord willing, and if the creek don't rise... there should be happy engine sounds coming from my shop tomorrow!
Have a great one,
Christopher King

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

update: :)
Now I am off to get more beer and some wiring supplies

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:D

I concur my friend.. :cheers:
^I am doing the same thing^
Drinkin beer, Finnishing the wiring.

Good luck and I hope you get it running.

More updates:
All Cables are hooked up
shifter is reinstalled
downpipe is bolted up
fuel tanks are swapped out, and rear end is back on the ground --- the fuel tank on these cars is a #@$@^ to remove-install
dash is almost complete again
all factory engine wiring is plugged back in

looking for some number again, what are the peak HP and torque numbers for a stock A20A3?

As I get close to trying to start this, I have a confession, I don't have a stim, so I am wondering if I run any serious risk of screwing things up without it? Any thoughts on this? What do you think I should have set in my config to for an initial start? I have read X-tau off, and a basic VE Table generated here: http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/vetable.htm, and then calibrate the tps before start up, am I missing something?

I am getting there... I can almost taste it now.
Thanks for all the advice and info, Have a great one,
Christopher

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Originally Posted by 2ndGenGuy

Does the stock ECU run a batch fire setup as well? I've been trying to figure this out for a while. I've never could figure out how people ran a Multiport injection system on the older Civics off of a dual-port ECU by adding a couple wires. I guess if it was batch-fire, then that would make plenty of sense.

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3Gs have sequential injection..
Take a look on page 12-30 of the 1989 USDM manual; it is the troubleshooting of the sensors that feed info to the sequential fuel injection. I understood how the system works by looking at the little diagram on that page, together with the wiring diagram on page 12-8. ECU can operate each injector separately (each one has its own connection to the ECU). It knows which cylinder is which by using the info from one of those sensors, and get the firing timing from the other... I find it quite interesting that a car that old was loaded with such a technology under the hood.

Update:
All fuel system joints now sporting new crush washers, and are tightened down
spark plugs are in and gaped
The engine is now turning over, and has spark

It looks so much nicer in that engine bay without all the extra hoses, and without so much oil sprayed everywhere!

just need to finish the wiring for the computer and we should be cookin' with gas!

I have a few more questions:
does the polarity matter on fuel injectors? I don't see why it would, as long as I am consistent, but I wanted to make sure before I wire them up into my new harness. If it does matter, which pin is positive?
also, what should I have set for my Ignition settings? I am not controlling spark at this time, so I am not at all sure what matters, and what doesn't. The MegaManual never comes out and says, if you are using MS2 to control only fuel and have a one pulse per rev signal coming in from a VR sensor, use the following settings, at least not that I have been able to find.

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

looking for some number again, what are the peak HP and torque numbers for a stock A20A3?

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120 hp @ 5500 rpm & 122 ft·lb @ 4000 rpm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

As I get close to trying to start this, I have a confession, I don't have a stim, so I am wondering if I run any serious risk of screwing things up without it? Any thoughts on this?

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The odds of damage are not very high, especially with fuel only. If you've managed to power up the MS and talk to it with MT/TS then you can pretty much bet it's fine. I don't have a stim either.

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

What do you think I should have set in my config to for an initial start? I have read X-tau off, and a basic VE Table generated here: http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/vetable.htm, and then calibrate the tps before start up, am I missing something?

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Calibrate the coolant temp and IAT sensors. Did you set the injector characteristics? Set the PWM current limit to 100% and injector opening time to 1.0ms. Most of the other settings can be left at the defaults for now.

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

Update:
It looks so much nicer in that engine bay without all the extra hoses, and without so much oil sprayed everywhere!

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You aren't kidding! It's so nice to work in a clean uncluttered engine bay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

I have a few more questions:
does the polarity matter on fuel injectors? I don't see why it would, as long as I am consistent, but I wanted to make sure before I wire them up into my new harness. If it does matter, which pin is positive?

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I don't think so, but I followed the factory polarity anyway. If you look at the wire colors on the factory injector wires, they will all have one wire that is the same color, like red/blk, or yel/blk, or something like that. Those are the ones that go to the resistor box for +12V. The other wires will all be different colors and will go to the ECU.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

also, what should I have set for my Ignition settings? I am not controlling spark at this time, so I am not at all sure what matters, and what doesn't. The MegaManual never comes out and says, if you are using MS2 to control only fuel and have a one pulse per rev signal coming in from a VR sensor, use the following settings, at least not that I have been able to find.

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There should be a fuel only setting for "Spark Mode" in the ignition options. The "Ignition Input Capture" setting I don't think will really matter. Other than that, leave everything at the defaults until it's up and running.


C|

Thank you, I now think I know enough to finish the wiring and try to start her tonight. I am sure I will have other questions before I am any where near done though...
Thanks for the help

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

Thank you, I now think I know enough to finish the wiring and try to start her tonight. I am sure I will have other questions before I am any where near done though...
Thanks for the help

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Good luck!


C|

[QUOTE=cygnus x-1;1009734]120 hp @ 5500 rpm & 122 ft·lb @ 4000 rpm

msn.com claims 120hp at 5500rpm and 130ft tq at 4500rpm... now who to believe 0_0

[QUOTE=1987AccordLx-i;1009774]

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Originally Posted by cygnus x-1

120 hp @ 5500 rpm & 122 ft·lb @ 4000 rpm

msn.com claims 120hp at 5500rpm and 130ft tq at 4500rpm... now who to believe 0_0

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Chris....cuz he knows more than msn....no 4 cly motor puts out more tq than hp...our motor only puts our 120 tq...

Well, 99% of the wires are now installed, the squirt is now seeing a temp on both temp sensors, the TPS is working as expected after calibration.
I do not however have a tach signal that works. I am wired into what should be the TDC output from the dizzy, but when I crank the engine, Engine Speed is still zero in TunerStudio. Any ideas on what might cause this? After I solve this mystery, I am ready to hook up the oxy sensor, and clean up the harness. Then it will be that time, when I plug the fuel pump in, and we have a moment of truth!

also, how do you import a vex file into tunerstudio? I am guessing I could just copy all the fields over, but there must be a better-more fool proof way to go about it... I am currently running the B&G firmware, I belive it to be the most recent version.

thanks ya'll, I am hitting the sack, I'll have another go later this morning, after some nice sleep...

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Originally Posted by MessyHonda

Chris....cuz he knows more than msn....no 4 cly motor puts out more tq than hp...our motor only puts our 120 tq...

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I just copied that from Wikipedia, so I don't know if it's really correct or not. But 130 lb-ft sounds a little optimistic.

And Messy, the A20A1 put out more torque than HP. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

Well, 99% of the wires are now installed, the squirt is now seeing a temp on both temp sensors, the TPS is working as expected after calibration.
I do not however have a tach signal that works. I am wired into what should be the TDC output from the dizzy, but when I crank the engine, Engine Speed is still zero in TunerStudio. Any ideas on what might cause this? After I solve this mystery, I am ready to hook up the oxy sensor, and clean up the harness. Then it will be that time, when I plug the fuel pump in, and we have a moment of truth!

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Ok, sounds like you're just about there. On the tach signal, first make sure that you have a signal on that line. A scope would be the best but a simple voltmeter should give you at least some indication that there is a pulse signal. Try switching the tach input capture setting and see if that fixes it. I said earlier that the polarity wouldn't matter, but I just remembered you're using a VR type signal, in which case it does matter. Just try both settings (going high, going low) and see which one works.

If you have a signal on that line and changing the ignition capture settings doesn't help, you might send me your .msq file so I can take a look.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

also, how do you import a vex file into tunerstudio? I am guessing I could just copy all the fields over, but there must be a better-more fool proof way to go about it... I am currently running the B&G firmware, I belive it to be the most recent version.

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I'm at work and don't have access to my files, but, I just loaded up TS here with an old .msq. Wow, the menu layout with a B&G .msq is quite different from an MSExtra .msq. I had forgotten about that.

Anyway, when you open the VE table (from "basic tables"), there are some symbols in the upper right corner (make sure it's in 2D mode). The left arrow and right arrow are for import and export.

Looking more at the menus, I don't see a fuel only option in the ignition settings, so I guess just ignore most of them. The only one I can see making any difference is the "ignition input capture".



C|

Thanks man, I am headed out to the garage now to check if, number one I have a signal at the dizzy, then two if I have one at the DB37... If I do then I will spend more time working on the settings under ignition in tunerstudio...
you think I should go to the extra code now while it is still easy? I know it is better, but how much better?
thanks again, I am sure I will be back with more questions,
Christopher King

update:
Ok, I have checked at the dizzy, got voltage while cranking, checked at my splice, have same voltage while cranking, checked the DB and I have voltage there too. I am 99% sure that I built the squirt correctly to accept a VR sensor, but I am going to pop the cover off and have a look see.

ok, I found two resistors that where of the wrong value in my VR system on the board, they have now been fixed, and I am seeing a tach signal now, does about 290 sound right for cranking?
Thanks y'all,
Christopher King

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Originally Posted by MessyHonda

Chris....cuz he knows more than msn....no 4 cly motor puts out more tq than hp...our motor only puts our 120 tq...

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The earlier Accord motors all had higher peak torque numbers than peak horsepower.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

ok, I found two resistors that where of the wrong value in my VR system on the board, they have now been fixed, and I am seeing a tach signal now, does about 290 sound right for cranking?
Thanks y'all,
Christopher King

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YES! I think you just about have it!

If you think you might ever want to switch to MSExtra, it would be easier to do it now. Switching back and forth is not difficult at all but it does require some minor tuning tweaks. For fuel only there isn't much difference but the ignition options are greater with MSExtra. And there there's the whole sequential injection/COP thing too with MSExtra.

Yeah, I would say do the switch now.


C|

I will switch here really soon then, just want to make it sputter first, I now have my map sensor hooked to the manifold, and can see vacuum while I cranks, but it doesn't try to fire yet. I am currently using the carb wiring for the fuel pump, and am wondering if I need to rewire to use the squirts signal, it doesn't seem to be getting pressure up at the injectors... I am also going to check and make sure that the computer is grounding the injectors while it is cranking, then if I fix-check both of those and no sign of life, I will have to come up with more interesting candidates for my issues...
Thanks again so much for the help,
Christopher King

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cougar97536

I will switch here really soon then, just want to make it sputter first, I now have my map sensor hooked to the manifold, and can see vacuum while I cranks, but it doesn't try to fire yet. I am currently using the carb wiring for the fuel pump, and am wondering if I need to rewire to use the squirts signal, it doesn't seem to be getting pressure up at the injectors... I am also going to check and make sure that the computer is grounding the injectors while it is cranking, then if I fix-check both of those and no sign of life, I will have to come up with more interesting candidates for my issues...
Thanks again so much for the help,
Christopher King

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I think the stock wiring for the fuel pump should work, but I'm not too familiar with the Accord fuel system. They all use an in-tank pump where the Preludes use an external pump. And the carb pump on the Prelude operates differently that the FI pump. One thing you could try real quick is to hot wire the pump so you know it's running and then try to start. Also, if it's getting fuel you should be able to smell it right at the throttle body (open it and take a sniff) or at the tail pipe.


C|

I got her to run! Right now though she is idling at about 2100 rpm, and has to be bottle fed to start her, then she can take care of it herself...
I am in the process of switching to MSExtra code, before I make any changes, then I will get after trying to make here idle nice...
have a great one,
Christopher

Also, is it common to have the oil pressure switch fail on these engines? I just noticed my light is on, and I am a little worried, I did however look at the main and rod bearings when I had the pan off, and they looked good, so I am unsure what I could have done to make this a real problem.