Thanks Derek I'll give that a try and hope that it does betterQuote:
Originally Posted by ddude2uc
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Thanks Derek I'll give that a try and hope that it does betterQuote:
Originally Posted by ddude2uc
If you set the engine to TDC before changing cam, you should be in time.
Otherwise all of your valve settings are out of whack as well.
The dizzy if I'm not mistaken is offset to prevent it from being installed 180 out.
But, again check the simple stuff first.
yeah one time when my batt terminal came loose when i connected it again the car was running all weird for a bit until the ecu "relearned" about the car.. maybe you just need to give it time pico?Quote:
The car might need about 10 runs for the ECM to relearn parameters.
True to a point, but the cam could be turned 180 degrees out. Which I doubt it would run at all. Re-do the valve lash again, do a hard-relearn on the ECM & see what happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by nswst8
that is the first thing that crossed my mind but I was not sure if those cars did that (not obd i or II) I guess it would for each event or start, but not remember parimeters... shoot what am I thinking GM PGMFI did way back in early eighties.. so yes clear the idle learn and relearn..drive it as soon as it gets a decent idle and use the power steerring, headlights and blower fans too so it works for accesory draw rpm too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddude2uc
ignition timing would be on the agenda too, with the mods you wont use factory spec by no means, more advance more more more..but not too much.. lol
I hope it gets steight soon Picopop, don't let this keep you from experimenting with the cam timing, or maybe you will just save that for dyno day yes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by picopop
I just like how methodical you are with your work. It's like you have a very good plan lined out when you do stuff. Im pretty much all over the place lol. Im almost A.D.D. on my projects I swear lol.
I had thought about the 180 out too but dont know enough about these engines yet to be recommending much to you. I also thought about the ECM but wasnt sure if they were sophistocated enough to be a learning ECM at that year model, but sounds like maybe it is. So yeah, I'd pull the cables and clear the ECM and restart it so that it runs off the base program, and it will learn from the base how to set idle under load and where to maintain timing to keep the A/F mixture stoich. Might be your culprit.
JIC though, check that timing with an inductive timing light to see where it's at, to make absolutely sure you didnt get a tooth or two off on the belt.
as of this moment nothing good, I reset the ecu an still no luck.
I'm going to let the car cool down a bit and retrace my steps during the cam install.
I feel like such a idiot, I know it has to be something simple that I am overlooking.
Gonna go to harbor freight and best buy for the moment and clear my mind, and start over on this puppy when I get back.
My experience with timing is that your car will not run at all if your timing is off by more than 2 teeth. When I changed my timing belt, we did it without a timing light, and when we first tried to start it up, it was 180 degrees off time, and it sounded weird when we tried to start it. Odds are your timing belt may be off by a couple of teeth.
I've also messed with valve lash as well. I found that the stock valve specs did not work as well as I thought they would. I basically set the lash so it would run without stalling, and then from there, i tightened the lash so that there was no valve clicking. After I did the valve lash for one one cylinder, i would restart the car and see how the car ran. It took a long time, but now it runs perfectly smooth, without any noise.
All in all, I would try to move your timing belt one tooth over and see if anything improves. You can do that in 5 minutes; all you have to do is loosent the tensioner and move the belt on tooth over on the cam sprocket. If that doesnt work, try moving it the other way (left instead of right). If nothing improves still, then your valve lash is most likely wrong.
When you pulled the belt off the cam gear did you try to keep tension on it and set to the side and then reinstall it without checking the crank position?
If you did then I would say that it is a couple of teeth off. My expirence of this procedure is that more than not the belt loses tension and slip off the crank sprocket and goes out position.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...p/MSD6Box1.jpg
*did you use a breather for the valve cover?
*I would check the brake booster vacuum hoses, pvc
*check vacuum lines and ALL hoses concerning the Idle controlers
*note, I know I am not the only one to do this, get anxious and get turned around where I start working with cyl #4 thinking it is #1, while adjusting valve lash and setting tdc via looking at the cyl through an open spark plug hole.:)
* test your coil output, it could have got hot if you left the ign on without the car running, if it were left on a long time.
*you may actually have it in correct cam timing and it had been one tooth off the whole time before, and you may have adjusted the stop screw for the idle and adjusted things to smooth it out before (just a thought, I dunno the history)
*check for damaged thrermovalves (tees for vacuum switching)
*check battery voltage, connection, and alternator output voltage
*check injectors for physical damage or loose wire etc.
*MAP sensor, check wires and vacuum signal??did you do 4G MAP mod?
I am not sure if you removed your spark plug wires when you did the cam install, but make sure that they are in correct order. I remember CAH had installed his incorrectly and it ran like crap.
well I got her running but she still fluctuates idling but doesnt die, close to it but stays running.....and now the plugs are fouling up :rant:
I think I am going to SCREAM..................................
have you tried 1 step hotter plugs?
also what was you'r timming issue?
edit: now that you went to a proformance cam it will lope a little bit.
also you may need to play with spark plug gap till you find the sweet spot.
check fuel pressure,with a bigger cam you usally loose a bit of vaccume, thus the rich condition.
Is the check engine light on?
I had a similar starting/idle problem, I fixed it by plugging the coolant temp sensor back into the tranny.
Got a inductive timing light to hit the flywheel? That will give a start. (seen idle issues on a tooth off a belt on other cars I've worked on)
I think what Im going to do this weekend is redo the t-belt and start from square 1 and see how it goes from there.
I'll be straight up with you Roger, you need to pull the crankshaft pulley off to make sure you good with the belt line up right. Honestly, I think when you pulled cam sprocket & belt off the top, you didn't keep enough tension on the belt & it skipped a tooth. (hate to say it)Quote:
Originally Posted by picopop
I agree with you on thatQuote:
Originally Posted by ddude2uc
It probably would be easier without pulling the crankshaft pulley by looking through the inspection hole for the TDC mark. Then have someone hold the crank bolt while you move the cam sprocket. But I don't see anyway to get to the tensioner on the lower timing cover without taking the crankshaft pulley off to get to the lowering timing cover. So, you have to pull the crankshaft pulley off from what I can see. Right?
ANYHOW, your will know your good by pulling the crankshaft pulley & making sure lines are right.
pico you know if you line up the tdc mark on the flywheel in the timing/inspection hole with the pointer, all you have to do then is make sure that the "0" on you'r cam gear is directly inline with the valve cover bolts...
there is no need to take anything apart to check it. if the belt is off a tooth then you'r camgear "8" degree will line up with the bolts.
you'll have to get the tdc dead on though,the cam gear rotates 2 to 1 comparred to the crank
^^^ that is what I was thinking
The belt cant be off the pulleys or it would have never ran 2000 rpm to break in the cam.
You can loosen the tensioner by the access hole in the Lower cover, heck mine sticks outside the cover for access.
I guess it is reassuring to erase all doubts before proceeding though.
The -T- mark scribed on the flywheel is TDC for the crank on mine, all other marks are just different ones for timing light and vacuum advance "on" or "off" settings. The -T- mark was barely visiable, but to assure I had TDC I removed the spark plug (s) and shine the flashlight in the hole to watch the pistion.
Rich off idle is a problem you had before Picopop. Now if it is fouling plugs, there may have been an underlyig problem to begin with, The thing you are concerned about here is hunting idle, which possibly could be cam timing slightley off ideal target. Logically I would guess vacuum issue causing MAP reading to be unstable, or IAC issue, just like it would be had you not installed different cam.
Vacuum issue, would cover a broad range of possibliities in itself...
Sure, you can "check" the belt is lined up through the inspection hole & looking at the cam sprocket lines. BUT, if the belt is off, getting to the tensioner requires the lower timing cover to cove off. Guess what has to come off then?
DS tire/wheel, dirt cover, Alt belt, Ps belt, err ac belt
and CRANK PULLEY ... yaaa hoooo then get out the 10mm quater drive on the lower T cover.. make note of that funny washer thing on the crank T belt sprocket :cheers:
Pico,
I hope all goes well with your troubleshooting. This is an excellent opportunity to enjoy a nice cold beer (or ten) while working on your car.
FWIW,
Matt.
hmm... i dont remmember taking anything off when i installed my cam gear....
i do remember theres a 12mm bolt that protrudes the timming cover whitch holds the autotentioner pully. anyway besure to mark the cam gear and belt and note the direction you need to spin the camgear.
