Printable View
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldblueaccord
whoops late night statement..
I should have said:
I am still wondering how HHO gas works in a IC engine. I have read alot about it theory wise but I'm still lost.
Sorry to be somewhat on topic, on with the rest don't let me hold you all up.
wp
ah, sport compact car magazine just ran an editorial about this. its complete BS and will never work. if you know a bit about chemistry, find the article, its rather entertaining.
Watch this and this and this :-) he quotes home much amperage he's pulling here: Link
THIS GUY is serious. http://alt-nrg.org/ Hundreds of video's on you tube.
That is a link I like. Very iinformative!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini2003
They address the O2 sensor part which has been bugging me some and talks about lowering the voltage accross the plates etc.
wp
Oh wow bubbles. Wow that must mean it's working. Can't be the lye or any of that other shit they put in the water. :rolleyes:
sorry the best chance of better fuel efficiency is gona be bio diesel or if they do more research on regular gas everything else is gona be an expensive mess
The purpose of the "other shit" :lol: in the water is to make it a better electrical conductor. You can use anything that makes the water either acidic or basic.
One thing I haven't seen yet is a cell that collects the hydrogen and oxygen separately. It's not hard to do, you just separate the positive and negative electrodes and have the bubbles go to different air spaces. I did this exact thing as a science project when I like 10 (for a different reason, and yes, I'm a nerd). But the point of separating the gases would be to introduce only the hydrogen into the air/fuel mixture. The hydrogen is what actually makes the combustion process more efficient, not the oxygen. The extra oxygen only fools the O2 sensor into thinking the mixture is too lean which causes the ECU to add more fuel; which is the opposite of what you want. The point of adding the hydrogen is to allow the engine to run even more lean than it normally would. This is why people are using those little electronic gizmos to alter the O2 sensor and MAP/MAF sensor signals along with their HHO rigs. They're tricking the ECU to inject less fuel.
Biodiesel is a cool idea, and I'm actually using it in my diesel converted Suzuki. The problem with biodiesel is that it has to be processed, which uses more energy to create the fuel. Even better is to run straight vegetable oil without the extra processing to convert to biodiesel. And even better than that is to run waste vegetable oil from local restaurants, since they have to pay to have the stuff hauled off and disposed of. You can collect their old oil for free and filter/dewater it to use as fuel for diesel engines. The vehicle does require some modification to run straight vegetable oil but it's not especially difficult to do. If you drive a lot you can recover the conversion and processing costs pretty quickly.
C|
Yep, I used salt once to make a glass of water conductive. The more salt I added, the brighter my light bulb would get, to a point. But it corroded the crap out of the nails I had the wire wrapped around. I think lemon juice might have worked too. Or that was for a different project. It was a long time ago for me as well. :tongue:
Can't you buy Hydrogen somewhere? Seems like it would be easier to play with it that way and get your car tuned and running right on it. At least it seems it would be easier than screwing around with generating it on the fly in the car itself and just running a tube from your "HHO" bottle into your air intake completely unmetered.
Then after you get your car running properly on it, then focus on your electrolysis machine. Figure out how to store it and generate it. Isn't there some sort of "litmus paper" that could test to make sure you're really generating hydrogen, and see just how much of it you're making? This is the kind of thing I want to see that I haven't seen. All that these YouTube videos show is some wires and tubes running into a beaker of water and making bubbles. Not even proof that they're making "HHO" gas of any sort. Apparently it's too dangerous to store. :rolleyes:
I guess I just don't understand the hype of this HHO stuff they keep talking about when it seems much simpler to just focus on regular old hydrogen.
Cygnus x-1 :I needa diesel sammy, my niece is owner operator of a chain of fried chicken shacks in the Atlanta area. She says they have a LOT of that old vegatable oil to dispose every week.
OH MY GOD! It's cold fusion!!!! We'll never need Saudi oil again!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndGenGuy
:tongue:
Anyway, this thread is a major drag because there's just a lot of name-calling and hate but nothing useful. I've seen some of the videos on this stuff. Yes, it appears as if you can run a small two-stroke motor on something other than straight gasoline, but that's not very useful in a car. There are a lot of things that work in the abstract. That doesn't mean they do in real life.
Can someone please just rig up their car with a boost kit or HHO or compressed H2 or Uranium 236 or whatever and:
1. Prove that it works, post a how-to and make everyone happy :)
2. Blow up their car and prove this to be all bunk. :crying:
No more haters please. That's not helpful.
Here's an interesting article on how scientists are splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen using sunlight. They mention using the hydrogen, but nothing about HHO gas.
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-mtl081408.php
for the hundredth time there is no such things as hho gas, it's hydrogen, you don't consider the oxygen in the air as part of it,all fuels need oxygen to burn.
I'm pretty sure you can get tanks of hydrogen from industrial gas suppliers. But I imagine it's pretty expensive. And from what I can tell so far you really don't need all that much, so generating it on the fly is an ok way to get it. It's also safer since you don't have to worry about a lot of it escaping if there is a major leak or something.
But the point of the question is still valid. What sort of tuning needs to go along with this to make it really work? How much is enough? Too much?
And I was also noticing that a lot of the videos on youtube are really uninformative. Many of them are just panning shots of some equipment and bubbling water, with some trendy music in the background. I have yet to find any that talk about the actual relevant science behind this stuff. Like specific chemical reactions with different electrolytes, and how to get more gas production without generating too much heat. What about using multiple cells with a lower voltage per cell? There are lots of other questions.
To address 2ndgenguy's question, electrolysis actually does make regular old hydrogen. When you apply power to the electrodes, hydrogen gas forms around the negative electrode and oxygen gas forms around the positive electrode. HHO is just the mixture of the two. You could separate the electrodes and just collect the hydrogen by itself and vent the oxygen to the atmosphere. That's what I was suggesting earlier.
Anyway, all this is on my list of stuff to try pretty soon. Other 'more important' stuff keeps getting in the way though.
C|
excactly. Without sufficient oxygen you will have no use of adding more fuel.Quote:
Originally Posted by lostforawhile
I think you should rather just look into simple water injection instead.
And lol at H2O being called HHO :)
I kinda said that in post #30 but since we are having a post padding fest I am having pizza tonight for dinner too.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndGenGuy
Lost...
Don't get too wrapped up in the terminology HHO is just what is says, Kinda like air is made up of many things besides O. But its on the wiki if you want to bother reading it.
wp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldblueaccord
Right, it's just a name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatDane
A good point. But the purpose of adding hydrogen to the air/fuel mixture is to allow the engine to operate with leaner mixtures than is normally possible. A leaner mixture means that there is a surplus of oxygen in the intake charge, so there will be plenty to oxidize the hydrogen and the fuel.
There is one thing that needs to be made absolutely clear.
THE HYDROGEN IS NOT BEING USED AS A FUEL. IT IS A FUEL ADDITIVE TO INCREASE COMBUSTIBILITY.
All that stuff about using water as a fuel is complete rubbish. Hydrogen can be used as a fuel but in this case it is not.
And HHO is not H2O.
C|
last two posts, excellent clarification guys!
I love it when I am reading down a thread and get fired up to clarify what someone obviousley is not getting then somebody gets to it finally...
EVOO ok, Extra virgin olive oil.. do you actually think there are extra virgins? and then what are they doing with all that olive oil? it's just an acronym for the topic, the English language is complicated so you can't take every term literally.
how about, strengthening teh engine so so so much that you can run super super lean and not do no harm.. win win win win win. i didnt steal that idea from anyone in particular :)
HHO gas or Browns gas is a name given for the remixing of both components of gas when you split the water molecule. It of course does not become water again until it is burned but you can buy a welder that runs on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by lostforawhile
The strength of the engine has nothing to do with running lean. It's about ignitibility and combustibility. As the mixture gets leaner it also gets harder to ignite and slower burning. When it gets to around 16.5:1 (depending on combustion chamber shape and such) it becomes so difficult to ignite that you get lean surge and misfires. Too much beyond 17:1 and it just won't ignite. A small amount of hydrogen added to a lean mixture makes it easier to ignite and speeds up the combustion so that it's more stable. It also drastically reduces NOx emissions (I believe by lowering combustion temperature).Quote:
Originally Posted by A18A
C|
So it's not about offsetting the gasoline with hydrogen? Aren't they talking about like 175% fuel efficiency using "HHO"? Can you really get that much better mileage just by lean burning an engine? As I recall, CVCC motors never got phenomenal mileage, just were cleaner burning as a result of the lean burn. Compare the ES2 to the A18.
Mixtures= good comparison is an oxeacetylene torch, or propane torch.
The leaner the flame gets :you have a blue flame which is loud and carries force and is capable of cutting metal it is so hot.
The richer the flame gets: white to orange color and is much quieter, to rich it starts to carburize and sends black airborne soot out.
A too lean mixture with considerable flow can destroy the combustion chamber in the head and burn holes in the piston and rings.
In our particular case, no. However I suspect that many people in the *HHO world* incorrectly think that it is; which is part of the problem. Many of the people that are messing around with this stuff have no clue about how it actually works. So we end up with lots of mis-information, junk science, and people using the general lack of real knowledge to sell crap. It is possible to run a combustion engine on only hydrogen, but it's way different from gasoline and would require a very different setup; i.e. compression ratio, valve timing, ignition, intake/exhaust tuning, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndGenGuy
175% efficiency is obviously over-unity, which is (as far as we know) impossible.
You can if you can run really lean. Lean burn technology has already been demonstrated in production cars, including one by Honda. The real question is whether an on-demand electrolytic hydrogen source can add enough efficiency to make up for it's own energy consumption. I believe Delphi has already produced a hydrogen enhancement setup for use on diesel engines. But it produces hydrogen by reforming a small amount of fuel instead of by electrolysis of water. As I understand it's more efficient to reform hydrogen from hydrocarbons than to use electrolysis of water.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndGenGuy
C|
I do think it is funny that a typical human reaction to something foreign or differant than what they have done or seen is to be negative and act negative to the idea or the person people responsible for that idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Snooz
I always try to remember that there was a time we (people) thought the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe.
Editing some while I am on my soap box. It does show the state of the education system in this country. I mean I got a circled 50 in Chem in highschool so don't have much to go on but I can understand so Chemistry and I did fair in math. I did a little better in 2 courses in college but it was dumbed down because I was in a management course. I wish I could teach people better but I'm not quilified in anyway to cover Chem or Phisycs so I try and keep my mouth shut.
I was skeptic when I added Acetone to my gas and got better mileage and still getting good results with 20% etheanol as well but I couldnt explain how or why.
wp
Myla Madson's complete guide to building and installing a Hydrogen Generator.
a coworker bought and DL this, looks interesting. There is a guy at a local shop that did it to his civic, has got 70 mpg with it.
It looks dangerous as fuc though
http://reviews.ebay.com/Hydrogen-Gen...00000005261775
