I am just wondering if anyone has any opinions on the best type of bearings to use in a much higher than stock output engine. I know the factory bearings are already quite good, but is there anything better available for the A20?
thanks
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I am just wondering if anyone has any opinions on the best type of bearings to use in a much higher than stock output engine. I know the factory bearings are already quite good, but is there anything better available for the A20?
thanks
ACL or Clevite same bearings all made by ACL top notch used in U.K touring car race series, i've never had on go yet!! chewed up plenty of others though!!
i like king alecular bearings myself. If they can live in a big ass 455 pontiac big block then they can survive anything.
I think bearings are more of a personal preference. As long as you have proper lubrication and tolerances I cannot see one being superior to another. Just plastiguage your bearings and you'll be absolutely fine.
well the king bearings are the best ive seen to date. i was originally gonna run acl or oem honda bearings. But since ive been using king in the a20a buildups ive been doing and seen no fialures when ive seen failures in oem and acl i think im switching brands
Can you get the king bearings in the different tolerances like the factory bearings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
Yes or you can save yourself a ton of headaches and get a completely built engine from us for less then you could do it yourself.
As long as you get a reputable bearing company I'd say use whatever you want. QC is what assures perfect oil tolerances. The reason people get failures is that they either are detonating or they like to keep there foot on the rev limiter of a mallory hyfire or MSD ignition thinking its cool. No load and doing such things will obviously pound the crap out of your conrods. Not having sufficient oil pressure when breaking in an engine will also cause damage right of the bat.
Use whatever bearing you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by riced_roach
actually this is a mistatement. there are lots of bearing designs. there a aluminum, tri metal, steel babbit etc etc etc. i run tri metals beacues they dont deform under heavy thrust loads and if you did some reading on the subject exstensively youd find that bearing size can contribute to fialure just like material. im not sure i even want to dive into this conversation here. But a blanket statment that any bearing will work is highly misleading.
Yeah, I hate to admit it, because I have a thing about doing everything myself, but I am actually kind of considering getting one of those built short blocks... (Or fuck it, a sleeved B20 with the B16 head...) As far as bearing construction, what exactly does honda use?
Sean,
Read all you want on the internet...real life application is a different story than advertisement from the manufacturer. Clevite is a great "tri-metal" bearing with there "soft lead alloy outer layer copper-lead center, and steel backing." Federal Mogul has a 4 metal bearing available.
I've never heard of steel babbit. Well the typical component of babbit is alloy of tin, antimony and copper so basically theres no rocket science in the Clevite bearings slight difference in formula. Also were not talking 1000 HP here were only talking 4 cylinders with aprox 200-300 hp. The whole point of a soft babbit material is to form to imperfections and mold to debris (ie dirt). I have never seen aluminum conrod or main bearings before in a daily driver OR race motor. Were not talking roller bearings here either since were only talking friction type oil film bearings.
My statement isn't a blanket statement. Alot of engine builders use clevite or federal mogul's "sealed power" just because its a name brand but I dont hear people say "dont use those other bearings 'cause they fail" If your a real hardcore racer you'd accept the fact that you'll have to change your conrod bearings after an abusive season.
I seriously doubt anyone here on the forum will notice one difference in one from the other in longevity. Beat on the engine for many years and I bet your main bearings will look almost as good as the day you put the new ones in. Conrod bearings is another story but since most are using stock stroke theres no rod ratio issues for any addional wear on conrod bearings. Running lean or too much advance causing detonation will be the culprit to bearing failure (conrod bearings that is)
I guess piece of mind but otherwise I see no "major failures" because you used a non tri-metal bearing. Consistant engine oil changes and proper engine operation will make any engine survive a long time with a reputable bearing.
is there actual proof that my statement is misleading??? That would mean I am defying from modern to old timer mechanics with extensive engine building knowledge.
Bottom line is that theres always stories, but the true fact is that they may leave out details like they use low octane fuel and detonate OR they broke in the engine with the sparkplugs installed and prayed that the assembly lube was sufficient to maintain an oil film between the conrod journals and bearings OR when they plasiticguage the jounals they were on the tight end of the tolerance OR they were on the rev limiter showing off while the engine had no load which pounded the conrod bearings.
AS for bearing size that may cause failure. The fact is there is no choice in this matter. You cannot modify or change the size of the bearings and deviate from stock bearings. If the original doesn't have the identical size of the aftermarket ones you've got the wrong bearings. Yes physical size may help distribute load factors but you have to use exactly the same phyical size of the stock bearings.
Use whatever you want. Sealed power recommends babbit for a supercharged drag race application so I guess that would include a turbo setup as well.
If your really harcore you wouldn't be so concerned since you'd be keeping an eye on the conrod bearings after every season. If you haven't noticed I dont talk about main bearings because in 99.9% of all imports (ie honda's and many others) the main bearings look mint even after tonnes of mileage on them. Conrods bearings are the weakest link. Cam bearings are simply perfect all the time unless you dont change your oil.
if sean says, something, i'll pay attention
It also depends on choosing the right tolerance for the application.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean
What about having the bearing cyro treated. I have heard a lot of good stuff about this process and how it can increase the life of the parts.
I use Clevite CL77 bearings in my V-8 build-ups, but dont have a clue if they make them for Honda engines.
Just make sure you have proper clearances, and you build in a clean environment, and dont oil them up with a brush from a can (this can transport dirt particles directly to the bearing), I use a clean pump type can...and dont touch the friction surface with your fingers either, (no kidding, the oils coming off your skin can promote early bearing failure, as it contains acids).
Quote:
Originally Posted by riced_roach
You know i could answer this post with an iflamitory statment. My bearing recomendations come from spending alot of $$ on dynop sessions and seeing what fails and what doesnt. I have seen the stock and stock replacement bearings deform under heavy load. And even though your statment about the mians is accurate the stock bearings also lack imbedabitliy that the tri metals have which protects the crankshaft main journals. call the engineering deparement at clevite and they will be glad to help you with understanding wich bearings work best for each application.
As for the ultimate for strength if i could get them id get 3/4 groove clevite h14s but they dont make them for hondas as of yet,.
it really does depend on what you're using, them for, if erick aguilar uses honda factory rings, they can't be that bad, but if you're running like 18 psi, i dunno
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedpenguin
well eric agular is missing out on something. i also highly doubt he really is using stock rings. thed have way to much tension and a they also have a high drag profile which is good for ring longevity but not so good for making power.
id bet mr agular is really running a ring from there motorcycle program and i wouldnt be surpised if he was also running a h14 style bearing as well. the aluminum stock bearings really just wont take that kind of rpm.
that makes sense to me
i'm jsut repeating shit that i heard but i definitely heard it said in reputable sources that erick aguilar says honda factory rings are unsurpassed in quality, personally i respect whatever you have to say, cuz i know from reading old turbo threads that you have a lot of experience
I do remember reading that he uses stock bearings but he also runs a N/A motor, so that could be the difference there. SEAN what about cyro treating the bearings?
Sean,
Well as far as clevite 77, sealed power and so on pretty well majority of the bearing manufacturers have figured out what works compared to the old tech bearings.
Call the tri metal bearings a common replacement bearing these days. This is why is say purchase pretty well any major player in the bearing manufacturers. Federal mogul bought out sealed power and have a large share of the market. Perhaps trying to find an inferior bearing would be a challenge these days. What car manufacturer will produce there own components such as bearings......NONE. Of course they will out source and guess what....... I find it hard to believe they would use inferior bearings. They'd be buying bearings from the major manufacturers which would mass produce and sell in bulk to the car manufacturer.
Oh and all bearings are imbedible. Even the old archaic engineers put that in the design of the old tech bearings. And Sean your comment on stock bearings deforming under heavy load is quite baffling. Define heavy load since there is minimal crank flex in a staight 4 banger. Are you talking conrod bearings or mains??? If the conrods and mains have proper crush I only see issues if oil pressure is not within spec. Steel backing is the foundation of the bearing so I am quite suprised to hear such a thing especially in stock application. What loads is considered "heavy"???????????? I've rebuilt enough v8's and 4 bangers in my time with no issues of failure. Some stock and some hot engines and i've typically used clevite or sealed power. Some aftermarket bearings dont accomidate for the chamfer of the after market billet cranks conrod journals but as far as longevity and abuse I've had no issues with those two bearing company's mentioned. Sean when you mention "deform" exactly how do you assess deformed??? How do you figure a heavy load will deform a stock bearing?? Do you pull the pan and remove a conrod cap/half and pull the conrod bearing for inspection?? is your oil pressure effected and you investigate the cause, I just find odd that you would go to that much trouble to look for deformation. Deformed after a bearing has spun???? Incorrect crush or crappy QC on that particular bearing could be the reasoning and NOT the bearing material.
Not anal about a this topic but I've never had problems. Most pinheads detonate and wonder why they have failures. Pointing fingers at bearings seems to be only a one sided story in many cases. Conrod bolts are another part of weakness and I've seen alot of failures with them letting go. I cant see guys on the forum getting major failures with using a reputable company and there are only so many major manufacturers out there.
I use the same bearings in my Honda engines and YES they are made for honda engines!Quote:
Originally Posted by TINBOAT
They do fine. I have no idea what the hell they are made of but I can beat on them all I want and they do just fine!
ACTUALLY...my lil' bro blew a cavi. 2.2L engine i built for my dad which had clevite bearings in it. He got stoned with one of his friends who did not know how to drive stick. They were pumping the beats while going down the highway...IN 3RD GEAR WITH THE ENGINE AT REDLINE and didnt even know it...fucking kids..
ANYWAY....the engine overheated, oil burned, o2 sensor toasted, head gasket blown, coolant 1/2 gone and burned up.....he made it home and the bottom end held together.
The engine starts but smokes like hell and sounds like ass.....but ...the bottom end still works!
Okay, now that the dust has settled, does anyone know what the part numbers are for our car (Federal Mogul, Clevite, ACL, King,.. whichever)? Rod, thrust and main? Thanks.
Anyone....?
Try asking SEAN or calling the companies for the part numbers.
Gee, thanks. Why didn't I think of that? Obviously I can call and get them myself, but from the heated discussion on this thread, you'd think some of these guys could recite them from memory. I was just hoping to get them the easy way. Oh well...
yea just give it time.
As i siad. the kin allceular bearings are the best ive come by. if you need bearings toss me an email ive got a few sets in stock.
