What's a good clutch?
-kevlar or carbon?
-full faced or windowed?
-sprung hub or solid hub?
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What's a good clutch?
-kevlar or carbon?
-full faced or windowed?
-sprung hub or solid hub?
it depends, are you looking for a street/strip clutch (somthing a little better than stock) or a full race clutch? I have a full race clutch but i wouldnt reccomend it to someone who has just minor mods.
i want something reliable for the street but almost as strong and grippy as a race clutch. i know the race clutches can be hard to engage and give your leg a workout. i want something just in between.
an act stage 2 kevlar would do it, and probably last longer than stock. Stay away from centerforce. Clutch masters and ClutchNet are good too
I've looked at the Unorthodox racing ones with their unorthodox prices ($480). How much are ACT's? What about Exedy, any good?
Exedys are good but are stock replacement and arent stronger than stock. A clutch masters stage 2 id take over the act, but the CM is like $500. Im looking now and i guess act doesnt offer the kevlar clutch kit for our cars. I bet clutchnet would make you one with a kevlar disk... id give them a call.
What about type of clutch, not brand? Which is better?
-kevlar or carbon?
-full faced or windowed?
-sprung hub or solid hub?
kevlar is gonna last ALOT longer, carbon has more holding power. Full faced wears a little longer and windowed holds a little better. Sprung hub is practically a must for a pucked clutch to be streetable but i think for a kevlar or organic clutch you could be fine with a solid hub. If you like a smooth engagement, id get the sprung hub.
so full-faced, kevlar, sprung hub clutch then eh? cool bro, thanks!
ice, let me know what you get I'm gonna have to be replacing mine within a few months. It'd be good to hear a review.
definitely will. :rockon:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludi Mali
i think only CM has a kit that your looking for that fits all of the above criteria, the stage 2
Unorthodox racing has all varieties of clutches I listed above that's why I asked which type would be better. Plus they make a 5lb. aluminum flywheel for our car. Very pricey though...about $500 for each, the clutch and flywheel.Quote:
Originally Posted by AccordEpicenter
ive heard about it, but where can you actually get one? I have an aasco one, and its pretty nice... bout 8lb
PlanetPerformance sells alot more stuff for our cars than most sites. I looove this site:Quote:
Originally Posted by AccordEpicenter
Unorthodox Racing Alum. Flywheel: $486
http://www.performancecenter.com/pro...ions/sf5_2.0l/
All Brands of Clutches, even Unorthodox Kevlar Clutches:
http://www.performancecenter.com/pro...ions/sf5_2.0l/
which ACT clutch is stage 2? none of them specifically mention what kinda of 'stage' they are. or maybe i missed it?
Whats wrong with Centerforce. I have a Centerforce clutch and it hooks up good with the stuff that i have done and it only cost me 140 or something like that.
Well i've tried everything and broken all of them so far, but i have just bought Clutchnet and all i can say is wow that thing is built to last the disks and pressure plates are twice as good as even the best CM or ACT can make, i had a stage three CM and that lasted 10K before it broke then i found out that the pressure plate is a $10 POS that they use, the Disk's weren't much better re-used that in an AP pressure plate whic are very good as well and had another 6K out of that before that broke and fell apart!!!
If you go to my Cardomain page got some hi res pics of the clutch and disk, only downside is you'll need a Prelude 1.8 flywheel or 2G accord flywheel to use this particular kit, but if you buy a new one or old one get it shaved and it will weigh only 9lb in weight and that will boost your accleration times too!!
http://www.cardomain.com/id/rjudgey
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member.../281725_36.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member.../281725_37.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member.../281725_38.jpg
gotta tell yea, the quality is killer with the clutchnet unit, they pocket the springs so they wont pop out like all the other brands, they were pretty quick making mine, the cost was on the cheap side (mine was $385, beats $500 for a CM with a comparable amount of holding power) thats why i love mine soo much. Mine is a dual diaphram 6 puck sprung combo, so it has 2 layers of spring steel instead of one, and it also has 3 layers of the marcel spring for the inner pressure ring in the pressure plate. . They make their Pressure plates and their disks, no off the shelf stuff like centerforce etc. I could have gotten an organic disk, 6 puck, 4 puck, 3 puck and maybe a few others, all in spung or unsprung versions. Oh yeah, even with my very heavy pressure plate clamp load, i have not broken a clutch cable yet, not even one.
What stage is an Organic Street disc ACT clutch with heavy duty pressure plate? I'm looking for something for a motor that is basically stock (intake header, exhaust)
clutchnet huh? how does that compare to the full kevlar unorthodox racing ones? do they make one for the 3gee or is the 1.8L lude or 2gee accord flywheel & clutch combo the only way?
they can make pretty much anything you want. Im running one they made for my 88lxi. Id contact clutchnet to see if they could make you a kevlar unit... im not sure if they do
You can't find a kevlar unit for less than $480 usually right?
Rjudgey and I discussed this ealier: (scroll down a few comments past my flywheel plug)Quote:
Originally Posted by ICEMAN707
Flywheel/Clutch Debate
If you take his advice and go with the 1.8 clutch setup then I might be able to do a special lightened OEM flywheel for the ES (2Gee Accord) 1.8 clutch. I also have two spare stock ES flywheels layin' about if you don't find a reasonably priced aftermarket. I know there are aluminums for the ES/ET motors but they are expensive too. They are very similar to the A20s but the surface area is smaller and the pressure plate mounts are reverse. They are a direct bolt-up otherwise.
I got a complete Zoom Kevlar/Organic clutch kit for less than $400, but I couldn't tell you how it runs because I haven't tried it yet. No one else seems to have posted on Zooms, It should run better than OEM and I'm not trying to put alot through it right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICEMAN707
My Clutch Install
Thanks guys, I'll look into it... Not sure though. $1000 for a clutch/flywheel setup is alot of money on parts. But I'll think about it. I'm gonna hold on to my cash first, till everything on my next project pans out. I'm gonna attempt a B-series swap here soon. I got a b20b crv block in great condition for $100 that I'm gonna test fit and make mock-up mounts for and send it to a machine shop to be made in t6061 aluminum with urethane bushings. I'm still searching for a b16a2 99-00 civic si head to match it. Then an LS cable tranny.
Well the clutch face area and disk are bigger than stock on these as well as the parts being a lot more beefier, they also do different types of disks too but with the lighter flywheel this will have a bit less stress on the clutch as well. Also the Clutchnet prices are really cheap especially the Disks. If you look on their website the Clutch you need is for a Acura D16 ZC for some strange reason they don't have them listed for The prelude or 2G Accords? even though they are definately the same?
You mean the 1.8 Lude and 2g Accord clutch/flywheel assembly is bigger? or the Clutchnet versions?Quote:
Originally Posted by rjudgey
BTW, that's some crazy machine work done to your engine there. How much HP are you running with your current setup?
Check this one out, I don't know if its any good but its going cheap:Quote:
Originally Posted by ICEMAN707
Extreme Clutch Kit
stock replacement
If you have a b20a, whose transmission is not easy to come by, I reccomend NEVER getting anything beyond stock or stage 1 in terms of clutch. If I had 400whp and rally raced every weekend, I'd buy a stage 1 clutch.
In my experience, and that of many of my friends who are actual competitive racers, a clutch is minimal in terms of price to replace. A transmission is hard to come by, and much more expensive. The guy who owns the race shop I took my b20a bottom end to runs 11.8's on street legal trim with a N/A integra, and spent years buying transmissions (figuring hey, it's a b18, they're cheap). He told me that HIS racing buddies suggested a stage 1 setup for himself, and now he spends $100 every time something in his drivetrain takes a jolt instead of many times that.
If you have motor work done, and your tranny is hard to come by, I would, no matter what, not reccomend a stage 2,3,+++ clutch. Keep the clutch your 'weakest link' in the drivetrain. Your axles will thank you as well if you have tons of wheel torque.
I recently installed an ACT CLUTCH, with the heavy performance clutch disc and new clutch cable. I am hard on clutches, this will be my third clutch. This ACT clutch grabs well, I can easily spin my tire, if I am not paying attention. There is no noticeable pedal effort, when driving in city traffic. I would highly recommend this clutch to someone who is thinking of better than stock clutch.
HA2-HDSS
SKU: 83705500565
# This kit includes these components: H-018 - Heavy Duty Pressure Plate
# HSD005S - Performance Street Disc
# RB370 - Release Bearing
# AT52 - Alignment Tool
Torque Capacity: 200 ft/lbs.
The only problem with a stage 1 clutch is that you will be smoking them all the time with a good amound of torque and traction. Ive already blown a 3 puck unsprung and a stock replacement type clutch, and sean has smoked 6 puck clutches left and right, as well as quite a few other guys. yeah, my clutch might be overkill but usually the next thing to slip/break are the axles and then the tranny. If you absolutely must go fast, you absolutely must have a clutch that can take abuse. I have seen quite a few 12 sec hondas using an oem style disk with somthing like a 2-3x stiffer than stock pressure plate with minimal failures, they just get slippy when they heat up. Generally boosted cars have more torque than NA cars especially in hondas, so you can get away with a smaller clutch in a vehicle with less torque. Thats why i cant get away with a stage 1 clutch but your friend running the fast N/A teg can run one no prob.
i dont know if its applicable specifically, because i have never used an aftermarket clutch, but my friend had an ACT stage 3 in his supercharged VW corrado, and that POS was worthless (the clutch ;-) ) it lasted like 10,000 TOPS, and was only drag launched maybe 15 times. :( the car had decent tq, maybe 200+, but the clutch couldnt even hold it all. :(
i have heard nothing less than GREAT response from clutchnet anywhere i ahve read about them. i bought a spec stage3 clutch, which was reasonably priced, but only holds 250 or 260 ft lbs, which wont be enough. :( i will probably go with a clutchnet after i toast the spec clutch.
You guys mentioned to stay away from Centerforce. I was wondering why you suggest that. I'm also looking at installing a new clutch in about a week. I only drive on the street. My car only has a catback and an intake. Would you still recommend avoiding Centerforce for me? (I don't mean to hijack)
with catback and intake, if you dont plan on modifying your car much further, i think that OEM honda clutch is your smartest choice. if you drag race a lot, then a better clutch is appropriate, but if its a street driven a20 with minimal bolt ons, a oem clutch will hold up forever. :D
I'm not done with my mods...but most will be relatively mild. How far do you think the oem clutch will go? Also, what clutch would you recommend as a light step up above oem, and why? Thanks for the input as its hard to get advice on these things anywhere else.
I have a good amount of bolt on mods, and have OEM clutch:
CAI, 2.25 Exhaust, Fireball Muffler, DC Header, 2.5" High Flow Cat, Delta 272 Cam, MSD 6A Ignition, MSD Blaster SS Coil, 4g MAP Sensor, Short Shifter. I consider that a mild bolt on setup. there is more that you could do, like SAFC, fuel pressure regulator, throttle body, intake manifold etc... but i have the mods listed above, and my clutch doesnt slip badly. My clutch is original, and has 270,000 miles on it, and will still hold my power. its a little soft, but i am honestly amazed that it has held up this long, considering i have raced it several time. unless your planning for real power adders like boost or nitrous, i think the stock clutch would be great.
if you feel like you want to get something better, look into a lower rated clutch net clutch. some of them have good clamping power, and oem pedal feel. :) but its probably not necessary.
youll need a farily extensive list of mods to warrant going with a puck- style clutch, you really wont get a very long lifespan out of them anyway, the stock clutch like bobafett says works fine unless youre into nitrous or boost or a wild NA build. Ive heard alot of bad things about centerforce clutches, and lately ive been hearing stories about act clutches too. I smoked my 3 puck spec but that thing was nasty to begin with, totally unstreetable. The reason why i run a dual diaphram 6 puck sprung race clutch is that nothing else will hold up to the power im making and the abuse i give it. Every other clutch ive looked at except for a clutch masters stage 4 (which is a 4 puck sprung) and the spec stage 5 (3 puck unsprung) will not hold over 250ish lb ft of tq, and ive already smoked the spec stage 5 so i figured id just go with somthing with a big nasty pressure plate. The strategy has worked good soo far, i dont think the 6 puck is that nasty to drive, other than a very heavy pedal, but i havent broken a clutch cable
can u pm me a part number/price etc for the clutch u are running now. after hearing your experience with the spec clutches, i will probably end up with something very similar to u after 'using up' my spec clutch
if ur smoking spec stage 5 at 13 psi or less, i know i will destroy mine as well. :(
Well idk what was up with that, it was unstreetable as all hell, but the pressure plate side ground itself down to the rivets, yet the flywheel was undamaged, as was that side of the disk... Oh well, it lasted 600 miles on 3psi lol... idk maybe i just got a bad one? Im on around 8-10k miles on the clutchnet. Ok boba i was looking through their site and i couldnt find exactly what pressure plate im running, because it listed them in 2x and 3x stock pressures, im running a red dual diaphram so id guess that its a 3x stock pp. If i were you id just give them a call and ask them whats up... I paid like $385, their site currently lists the 6 puck sprung and 3x pp at $400 (thats what combo im running)... That is cheaper than either the spec stage 5 or the ClutchMasters stage 4.
sounds good. i will give them a call when it gets closer to boost time! ;-)
Thanks for the advice guys. Looks like I'll order an OEM replacement. Thanks again.
well does anyone know if its possible to swap disks between manufactures. Im running a http://www.performancecenter.com/pro...r_ACTHP3-XTMM/
and its only good for 310 lbs tq. Im planning on running 12s pretty easy and need a good one. Im thinking the 6 puck but act doesnt make a sprung puck. They say there pressure plates are made to oem specs but 88% more holding power or whatever. Can I swap in a different manufacture sprung 6 puck or just buy a whole nother setup. Seems to me the PP is the most costly and the disks are like 1-200 bucks so Id rather just by a disk. This is for the JDM B20a so id be a setup from a 88-91 prelude si B20a5. Mike
run a clutchnet 6 puck sprung disk
you guys think there is a driveability issue with 5lb. aluminum flywheel or no? is a windowed clutch versus a full faced clutch lighter? i wanna go lighter in the drivetrain to cut down on acceleration times. thanks for the advice so far guys!
i run an 8lb aasco and it isnt that hard to drive, you get used to it. I like the way the motor revs with it though
RPS Stage 3 Six Puck (Max Series) Clutch / Solid Hub
Specs = Torque Cap: 730 Pressure Increase: +85%
Damn thing took 500+ miles to break in... Could barely drive her when I first put it in. Now the thing bites down with no slip at all at 4500rpms easily.
yeah i like the way the a20 sounds when it revs. describe how the driveability of an ultralight flywheel is like. do you have to rev higher than normal off the line to keep the car from stalling out at launch?
yeah you gotta take off a little higher and build more skill to drive the car because the revs build fast and fall fast, so especially when revmatching, its harder. I couldnt launch before over 2800 rpm or id spin to oblivion (thats NA with stock flywheel) now with my absolute crap tune and 8lb wheel i launch at like at least 3500. Fine line between wheelspin and bog... but it might be just because my tuning sucks
but the question still remains when doing a puck or windowed style clutch do you go with the 3,4,6 puck clutch?
it depends on the pressure plate strength and how much you wanna hold
well the act pressure plate is rated 88% more hold and it would need to hold something around 300-350 ft lbs tq but with the ability to maintane at say a 3500 drop
is there a better way to remove the transmission with the engine still in there? looks like there are lots of stuff in the way at the top and bottom of the transmission and it doesn't seem like there is enough room to slide the transmission out of the engine since it's already 1" close to the passenger side frame. anyways if not, i might have to take out the engine anyways. it needs new gaskets and seals.
There's plenty of room to remove the transmission with the engine still in ;)
You can lower the engine a bit when it's only hanging by the last two mounts which will give you a bit more room to slide out the tranny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatdane
The manual tranny is not too heavy to lift into place into the engine is it? Or would I need a hydraulic engine hoist?
its like 100lb or so. You should be able to lift it and put it in/out via the bottom, just take out the axles and that crossmember, itll come right out. Note this is not possible with an auto tranny on these cars unless you remove the radius rod. 5 speed will come right out
yeah the auto's coming out. looks like the radius rod has to come out. that's what i figured.Quote:
Originally Posted by AccordEpicenter
.....wait, i have to take out the rear crossmember? that's gonna be a bitch. the power steering rack is there i don't want to have to mess with the power steering lines again. i did that before when i replaced the power steering rack. what a pain in the ass that was. i might as well just remove the whole front radiator support & bumper area and the hood and lift the entire engine/tranny assembly front and forward out of there and work on it in my garage where it's warm. plus, it would give me a chance to really clean up that engine bay with the engine out.
try driving it with the eacv unplugged. that's hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by AccordEpicenter
no iceman hes talking about the crossmember that goes from the front radiator support to the rear support under the tranny/engine. If thats out and everything is disconnected tilt the engine down quite a ways to get the auto tranny out. youll see how much lighter and more room you gain by scrapping the auto and going manual
The manual tranny is not heavy at all. I "man handled" it down to the floor. I used a floor jack to move into position. To be on the safe side, use a floor jack to lower it. Just remove everything first.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICEMAN707
Subframe center beam
Assorted cables & hoses
Losen knuckles & pull CV joints out
As for as which clutch is good, I'm not sure. As long as the pressure plate is strong & the disc is made of good material, it's good to go in my book.
Edit- add on
cool i guess all those pushups will come in handy. lol. ....and yeah i just realized he meant the engine support beam underneath. duh! well, this should be fun. it seems like i have more fun taking apart the car and putting it back together than actually driving it. especially having air tools. i love my air tools.
"driving it is just the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop. fixing up/hooking up your car is the candy....KAAAAAANDEEHHHH!" lol :rockon:
i haven't decided yet. but it looks like it's gonna be clutchnet for me too. cheap and good quality. who could say no to that?Quote:
Originally Posted by cke
i'm not planning on spending too much on this 5 spd swap cus i still need to scrounge up some cash for my engine swap project. i'm gonna start off with h-series first but if all fails, im gonna go b-series. i plan on taking hasport's EF 88-91 civic/crx h22 swap kit and modifying the 3gee engine bay and crossmembers to accept those mounts... or just make custom mounts myself with a CAD program and take it to a CNC machine shop to get done. that's what hasport does to make their mounts anyways. they're just bitches to not make mounts for 3gees, so you gotta do it yourself...booooo!
another thread jack. heres my plan, clutchnet PP with OEM clutch disc. now heres the sad part on my part. whats the pressure plate there for what exactly does it do for performance and off the line launches?
So i'm confused.. will i have better grip with a SS, or a 4/6puck?
its all about amount of force applied by the pressure plate and the type of material used in cunjuction with surface area. Most aftermarket pressure plates have a higher holding pressure so the pedal itself is harder to depress but it will yield a greater overall tention to the clutch disk to flywheel.
The type of clutch disk or material used is dependant on the type of driving. Street stock/oem units use a organic non asbestis but a cousin therein that hasnt been used long enough to determine if it will cause cancer as a frition plate. The puck disks are commonly a ceramic/ kevlar/ nomex type. These have greater friction properties and allow for more or a tighter grab when applied. If you combine the 2 in any sequence you can decide if you want a oem style for a high horse N/A motor usually a good choice for street stock/strip disks. If your running drag or a faster reving circle track a 4 puck is desired as its lighter but has the mostly the same properties as a 6 puck. The 6 puck is indeed heavier which is better for torque and usually rated the same as a 3-4 puck. Myself afterarket pressure plates are a must for any level of upgraded performance. And although they dont whereout you can fatigue the steel and break them.
So for a strong NA would u recommend the ACT SS or the 4puck... it will be a daily driven car n I'm realy hard on clutches so I need durability, But grip is of the utmost importance...
ive got an act ss for my autocross project. I got the extreme pressure plate and ss disk. according to there info its rated 310 ft lbs tq which is how youd rate them. HP is irrelevant when your talking gripping power. Im going to use it on my setup. So unless your planning on making more then that Id say your good. If you want to do alot of high rev drops dont get a sprung clutch hub.
u got an extreme for the accord?.. I can only seem to find the HDs....
its for the jdm b20a. 88-89 prelude. sorry should have clarified
i do high rev dumps with a sprung clutch... What are you getting at myqwick?
My 88-89 prelude Si bought clutch didn't fit my gold top b20a b2k5 transmission. I can only assume that the 90-91 b20a5 clutch kit is the one I'm really looking for?
I suppose they could have sent me the wrong clutch... but it seemed to be what it said it was..
we had to use my old pressure plate... and we used a stock a20 clutch itself.
well accordepicenter I cant say from practce but from reading online alone. Not from experience so I may be wrong but the spring retainers usually dont last too long with an aggressive setup and high rev drops. The springs are good for the synchrosso Id use a sprung clutch anyway. A clutch disk is alot cheaper than synchros anyday. But yeah from what Ive read people tend to launch springs or break retainers causing launched springs from doing this.
Like I said only what Ive read. Correct ,e if Im wrong. I hate giving misinformation. Mike
ehh i guess it depends on the clutch, mike. On a stock type disk or a weak aftermarket disk the springs do tend to pop out somtimes. Ive heard of this happening with a few ACT clutches and Centerforce clutches etc. Clutchnet pockets the springs so they generally dont fall out. They also use more of them. Ill tell you that the weight difference with the sprung and unsprung makes a difference in how fast you can shift. With a lightweight non sprung disk you can shift faster but for driveability and shock resistance i use a sprung hub.
i'm interested going to be doing a 5-speed swap and in the process, buying at least clutch + pp brand new. my power level isn't too high. just i/h/e and i'll probably put in a delta cam soon. anyway, i was thinking of going with a clutchnet 6 puck sprung hub for the clutch disc. but my real question is for the pressure plate. would a green level pressure plate be enough for my projected power level? i like the attractive pricing of the greens--$85--which is much better on my wallet than the $195 for the yellow pressue plate. my car is my daily driver and i live in socal, so there's practically always traffic everywhere. so is that a good combo? 6-puck disc + green pp or should i just go on and spend the money on the yellow? also, b20a is coming within a year, so even if the pressure plate won't last forever, i'll be fine with that since it'll be getting replaced anyway within 9 months-1 year.
i would not get a 6 puck clutch...that is overkill for bolt ons....highest i would go would be 1st stage for bolts on and 2nd stage for a small turbo...and 3rd stage for a built race engine.
Don't buy any clutch apart from Clutchnet by far the best clutches for street and strip go for the Red pressure plate stage 1-3 options stage 1 if your under 200bhp will be fine then go for either the organic sprung hub or the kevlar carbon sprung hub, if racing then the solid disk version of either will do the ceramic is only needed if your going to be running turbo with over 300bhp and 300lbft torque, also bear in mind that Ceramic won't last long as they grip really well but wear out real quick.
Definately don't buy Clutchmasters, and from what i'v seen the other makes are not much better as well. only other plate i've seen are AP but they are sold under another name and might not be possible to buy anymore especially your neck of the woods. Stick with Clutchnet and you can't go wrong there just the best by miles plain and simple both the pressure plates and Disks and better in quality of design and manufacture period. plus there pretty reasonably priced compared to CM and ACT.
