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i recently came into a good amount of money and i'm ready to put my 3G in the garage and start my drag car project.I'm hoping to be able to fit a jackson racing supercharger from a 96-00 civic si to my A20,since we can get b series manifolds on our cars why cant we bolt the JRSC on .the supercharger is actually buit the same as the intake manifold .if there is there any suggestions anyone has to help please let me know i will keep you updated. :idea:
Not to be a dickhead but, Dude did you even try searching??? There are so many threads on SC and I believe A20A1 made a sticky on this. SC only provides like 10lbs of boost right? I don't see the point of spending thousands to buy and modify that when you could go turbo for less money with more potential output.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89ACCORDVTECH
i agree with phrenology, your gonna have to do a little bit more searching and especialy look into which way the motor turns to which way the SC turns, might run into a problem there. if you take this project on and pul through, major cudos to you, dont think anybodys doen this before , but you gotta realize that to get the major cudos your gonna to through awhoooooooole lot or money and time.
why are people running this idea down already? someone is willing to spend the money into a real project, the a20 motor is really a solid platform, it just needs a little help on the intake is all. I've seen plenty of 2 litre motors from other cars that produce lots of horsepower,this is a tough motor that has potential if someone is willing to look past everyone putting it down. I think this is a great project, and i hope you keep us updated on how it's going. there are lots of benifits to using a supercharger vs a turbo, just one of them is the flat power curve and no lag time. :)
who has done this so far? No one that I know of. Just do it, don't be a pussy and let people talk you out of doing something different. Turbos are such a pain in the ass. Iv'e badly damaged 2 engines and set my car on fire because of a turbo. A supercharger would be much easier to set up physically, but you'll still need to do something about management, just like me. I'm trying to figure out obd-1 for my built b series turbo. Neptune RTP vs CROME + ostrich vs Hondata s300.. I don't know yet. The Neptune RTP is bluetooth capable, that is fucking p.i.m.p, program your ecu via laptop with no wires..
I'm not running it down...I really like the idea of Super Charging vs. Turbo but there have been lots of posts about modifying a Jackson for the A20 and lots of ideas have already been tossed around. Its a difficult mod and doesn't seem to have a huge pay off for the money. But if he wants to spend the money and time good for him, go for it. I just recommend doing some homework first and for sakes SEARCH!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by lostforawhile
Too many posts like this have been started and just turn into a long running series of arguments like the RWD Accord thread (what a waste of space). They always end up like, "No you can't do that and you should do this", and "why bother with that...blah blah blah.
Bottom line is its another project that's already been talked about a dozen times before and there are plenty of advantages and disadvantages with both Turbo and SC.
The main thing with SC is that you need a big motor to overcome the torque loss needed to make big gains with a SC. But there are examples of small engine SC look at the Mini Cooper-S. I once wanted to do a SC on my Accord with a clutch to disengauge it when I'm not racing but what do I know? :dunno:
DUDE read A20A1's sticky here you go:
Turbo vs. Supercharging
well lets hope it turns into an interesting thread instead of an argument, i would like to see this project get finished, i think the jackson racing superchargers are designed to make power on the small displacment engines like this, i've seen one on a civic with smaller displacment then our cars, it still made good power. with the bigger displacment in the a20 it should work well.Quote:
Originally Posted by phrenology
personally, i'd take a sc over a turbo anyday. lets see, less heat is generated so your engine life is going to be longer. and pretty much everything that has to be kept up or worried about being deteriorated is due to heat on turbo systems. heat kills. i think a sc is very doable for the A20 and should be researched to see how doable it is. really you need a good machine shop to do the filling and redrilling and other stuff on a sc manifold. as for your engine management, look into who makes custom programs. i know theres a few companies that make custom engine management programs. i've seen them for older cars converted to FI. i really cant tell you which ones are out there off hand. i really think its worth at least researching and developing something for your car though since nobody here really has much info on doing that other than that the manifolds ports are very alike and can be machined for proper fitment. and that you'll need a custom management system. tell us what your plans are though.
This was the post on the Jackson Racing SC fitment issues.
https://www.3geez.com/forum/showpost....28&postcount=2
Scroll down and you'll see a basic list of 4 possible problems you could face installing the SC.
There is nothing wrong with and SC.
You might want to look into more adaptable units listed in the link I gave like a:
- PROCHARGER
- VORTECH
And here is a list of most of the good turbo and supercharging threads.
https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46593
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its going to be an NA honda for the rest of its life... :-)
but as usual, i would love it if someone proved me wrong.... but so far nobody has... like the fucking "rwd s2000" accord project. i knew it wasnt going to happen. just like i know this wont happen. ;-)
sorry to be a dick... lol
well the rear wheel drive project was complete joke, this is a lot more realistic then that and someone has the money to do it. thats a big difference. hondas have been supercharged before so it's not some outthere project. all the problems i see are not that bad for a project like this. A20a1 that is a great link on info. :)
yeah i guess your right....why didnt i think of that...
its still not going to happen. yeah i agree that this is a LOT more feasable than a rwd s2000 powered accord. but this isnt the kind of project that just anybody can pull off. this is one of those things where you really need experience and fabbing ability. and i MAINTAIN, that anyone with those skills wont sit around posting on forums and asking questions about there projects, they just do them, and show them off later... and thats my opinion.
i still have never seen anything really ingenious happen with an accord. the best so far is the electric one! and that was YEARS ago... nothing has happened in the last 5 or 6 years thats seriously worth awwwing over, other than some sweet turbo setups, but we know thats a feasable project... ;-)
also, hondas IMHO respond a lot better to turbos than superchargers... but thats ok, boost is boost, and i appreciate it either way...
what i would do is change the pulley on the supercharger with a custom one that lines up with one of the pulleys on the engine. i would sacrifice the a/c and use the pulley for that and just run a longer or shorter belt to the supercharger. all it takes is a lil measuring and taking the specs to the machine shop to have the pulley CNC machined out of aluminum. heck, while you're there, get the specs of your power steering pulley too and have that remade out of aluminum. an aluminum underdrive pulley would be nice too, but the underdrive pulley might be very tricky cus it's a balancer for the crank. you could mess up the balance of the engine by making it too light.
update: OOPS! *edit new* important!
actually scratch that a/c belt idea. in fact, scratch the supercharger idea altogether. the a20a3 sits too close to the strut housing wall to be able to squeeze any sort custom pulley system in. the waterpump/alternator belt would be the best route. but even that is a no-go...pretty tough squeeze. too many things in the way... like the lines for the rack and pinion power steering fluid, strut bar (if you have one), brake master cylinder, main wire harness, vacuum hoses, etc.
even a vortech system with the supercharger on the passenger side and a rod going across above the header is a no-go. the power steering pump is in the way, a/c and power steering hoses, radiator hoses, and the spark plug wires.
I could do it but i don't have the time or money to right now,some advice on this project,get a front clip cut off of a wrecked 3g, remove anything that doesn't affect the supercharger mounting to make it lighter,find a ruined engine take out the crank,pistons,ac compressor,everything but the block,the head and the manifold you are going to install,put the entire clip up at a comfortable work height, now you have something to plan your mockup on and don't have to worry about driving it. leave anything that might be in the way of the blower of course. i would ditch the factory fuel control system and use a stand alone system like one from AEM, all you have to do is install the proper injectors and sensors for the particular model you order the system for. it's not easy but it can be done. remember the dis. already has a cylinder pos. sensor and a sensor for top dead sensor built in to it. the aem systems are set up to run boost already. I might convert my car to fuel injection like that but i'm old school and i like messing with carbs. the whole idea of doing it this way is to make all your mistakes on the dummy clip where it doesn't matter.
Well, since he said this would be a "drag car" I guess it's ok to assume that the car isn't going to really see daily driver use. So he could always do what the pro dragsters do and that's just remove all that crap in the engine bay that's not needed such as fender wells, ps, and a/c. Then he could always relocate his raidator and plug wires. I think the biggest problem is that it's going to be all talk and no "walk". I absolutely love the idea of a supercharger. You can't argue with instanious boost, adjustable boost, less heat, and the capablillity of high horsepower. For all those folks that think that just because you have a supercharger you can't pull high power numbers you need to rethink your theory. You usually hear that because most people won't change out their pulley ratios which raises the boost, typically because the non-upgraded motor can't handle the insane amount of torque that is put on it. So, if you beef up your motor to handle that then you can up the boost quite a bit. There was an article in Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords that had a guy running at 29psi (supercharged).So to say that you can't run high boost levels that just ubsurd considering he was almost at 2bars. I think the best route to find out more about power levels and gains and all that is to look at the domestic magazines because you usually only see turbo set-ups in the Import mags but, usually only Superchargers in the domestic mags. Just my opinion. If you have the cash you might want to just take it to a custom import performance shop and get their PROFESSIONAL opinion on it. Good Luck!
Jesse James and his crew coul make any of these projects happen.
The RWD s2000 powered accord
The supercharged accord.
I wonder how we could get Jesse to do one of these projects for us
on monster garage?
Sorry It's one of my deep dark fantasies. :rice:
well he did put a new z engine in a datsun honeybee,that was the ultimate sleeper. i don't think people on this board give themselves enough credit, if someone can put a turbo in an accord they can do the supercharger. we have some very intelligent people on here.
anything is possible... im not going to argue that... but listen to iceman... most of these problems have been realized before. ;-)
on top of the "whats the point" factor... (since turboing would be a much more efficient option)
well i don't want to start an argument on this thread,but the turbo vs. supercharge debate has been going on since there were two different options on cars. both have advantages and disadvantages. it would be nice to see someone acttually do it. I would think the supercharger would be better for daily driving.
super charger would be fine for daily driving. for people who dont like super high rpm ,and arent willing to tolerate turbo lag... sure... in fact superchargers can make like 40-60hp on a honda! ;-) lol
ok ill stop now... there are exceptions to every rule, but low displacement honda's just dont respond that well to superchargers... ive never read of a truly fast one. and if your going to bother doing a project like this, why just use it as a daily driver. seems like a waste to me!
:) ill try to stay out of this thread until new ideas come to light or some progress is made...
yea i'll probably do the same, if i remember the main reason mickey jackson came up with the idea of the one he designed was for torque, if you have a wide torque curve it makes for much better driving at all rpms. our engines already have good torque vs. a lot of hondas simply because of the larger displacement. if i remember the engine charts for honda they had more torque then a lot of hondas for a long time. they may have lower horsepower but that torque makes a big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobafett
Too many people on 3geez are too negative and eager to give up. Everyone has to start somewhere. If modifying cars and mechanical things is what you like/are good at, then just do it! Fuck.. I remember so many people that I came across when I was building my turbo 3g were so negative and gave me so much bullshit, it was ridiculous. People were constantly trying to give me "advice", and like so many people who attempt to modify cars, were completely without conceptual knowledge. A moron at Kragen told me to upgrade my Valvespring retainers, of all things, and then got all pissy with me. "I've been building engines for more years than you are old".. I said what you know about cylinder press vs. crankshaft angle? Timing and maximum brake torque? flame propagation and boost? How you can increase hp without increasing maximum cylinder press?? How you gonna give Me advice??" And I know enough to know that I don't know shit compared to what I could know, and that makes me want to learn more and more.
That said, a supercharger will get beaten by a (properly sized) turbo at the same boost level, and can be hp limited due to intercooler packaging concerns, but the supercharger is really nice for the street, it's almost like driving around with a bigger n/a engine. So if that sounds appealing to you, and the thing will actually fit in the accord bay, then Go For It. You willl be the Only one I know of to have pulled it off, and you will no doubt learn a lot along the way.
well i for one hope he does it,i would really like to follow this project. remember someone built the first turbo 3g too.
If the car were to be drag only then you could eliminate the brake booster and move the master cylender back to the firewall. The would problaby give you enough room to clear the supercharger on the back. You'd still be left with the question of wether or not it will clear the strut tower, but if the pully sits behind it then you could use some idler pullies to route the belt in an interesting way. I'm not going to knock you trying this. Its a good project, but you are in uncharted waters. There has been lots of talk about this, but thats it, it's all talk. I don't think anyone ever got to the point of taking measurements off one of those things and getting an estimate of how things will line up. It's an expensive experiment but if you have the cash to fund it then more power to you. Just make sure you have some way to recoup your losses if it ends up not working.
andy
If the 3g has a macpherson suspension(sorry late at night, and intoxicated-don't want to wake the whole house up) setup, why not upgrade to a double wishbone setup, shouldn't that give more room in the bay?
our car has a double wishbone suspension on all four corners,the srut is not realy a mc pherson strut in the traditional sense,it acts more like a shock absorber. this was the first year for it and as far as i know they still use a version of it today. I've heard that on one of the new accords without it road and track commented on how the handling wasn't as good. not to get off topic but our cars got one of the best suspensions ever put on a honda. anyway back on topic,i'm sure that you could substitute the word turbocharger for supercharger and find people sayings the same things when someone put the first turbp on a three g.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradSA138
our car has a double wishbone suspension on all four corners,the srut is not realy a mc pherson strut in the traditional sense,it acts more like a shock absorber. this was the first year for it and as far as i know they still use a version of it today. I've heard that on one of the new accords without it road and track commented on how the handling wasn't as good. not to get off topic but our cars got one of the best suspensions ever put on a honda. anyway back on topic,i'm sure that you could substitute the word turbocharger for supercharger and find people sayings the same things when someone put the first turbo on a three g. If I had the money and time i would like to undertake this project myself,but lately i don't even have enough time to finish my bodywork.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradSA138
ok i remember some old info on the early jackson supercharger, i believe he had made a countershaft assembly for one of the civics. in other words the pulley was on the end opposite the pulleys and power was transmitted through a simple countershaft assembly at the back of the motor. the belt drove one end of the countershaft and a short belt on the other end drove the supercharger. this also reversed the direction so it was turning properly. in this configuration it solved the master cyl. problem same as our car. I def remember reading about this somewhere. anyone else???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
Dude thanks for the prespective its about time someone interjected some real insight in to turbo motors instead of the internet "wisdom" and "experience" that we read about from people that, dont post here anymore or don't own our type of car or never did.
And just to add Jackson's been around forever is a real company, not an internet pipe dream, and the products are WARRENTIED for 100k miles. That to me atleast says alot about the setup in general. I do not think Oscar Jackson owns the company anymore.
another old thread couple good pics near the end of the thread
https://www.3geez.com/showthread.php?...3&page=2&pp=20
Good luck.
wp
BIG PROPS to accordtheory,hondaboy, lost for a while,and every one else that has confidence in me . Because of positive thinking true honda enthusiasts like you guyz ,you make it possible for people like me to keep coming up with great ideas like these. i dont care what people say this project will be done no matter what .Yes the car is going to be a track vehicle but also a cruiser but not an every day driver.I've had people tell me things like this before, like when i wanted to put an h22 vtec head on an h23 block.Its because of negative fuckers like that is why some of these cool ideas that could actually work dont get done because they discourage people as much as possible "F&$# ALL YOU HATERS". :mad:
my point exactly . thanx broQuote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
dude just chill. this is after all, a FORUM. you wanted opinions, you got opinions. some people think negatively, some people think positively. whomever group you thank is AFTER you do the project. not before. cus you never know which side is right till the end.
i seriously would like you to look at the 3gee engine bay before you get mad. then maybe it would change your mind. you'll see how close it sits to the frame on the driver's side making it extremely difficult to attach a belt system in there. you'd have to realize the a20a3 is a bigger engine than any b-series - just with a smaller SOHC head and tranny. looks can be deceiving.
now in terms of cost-efficiency, for the price ($3000 for the kit) and labor you have to do just to get it to fit, you would have done an engine swap already. now getting the supercharger to work properly with the engine, that's another story. by then you would have been rolling in your fully swapped 3gee and ready for new bolt on mods instead of having a headache of getting the charger to work properly. hell with the swap, you would be able to put that supercharger system in with ease. your chance of success would increase.
i think in my opinion, in order to put parts off another engine in a 3gee properly is to actually PUT that engine in the 3gee that part is actually made for. ghetto rigging a part just to fit is not a smart way to spend money and time when it comes to engines cus that's the heart of the car. it's not like a bodykit where you have plenty of room for error to correct yourself. the engine, if you screw that up, you screw up the entire car's whole driveability.
ok i remember some old info on the early jackson supercharger, i believe he had made a countershaft assembly for one of the civics. in other words the pulley was on the end opposite the pulleys and power was transmitted through a simple countershaft assembly at the back of the motor. the belt drove one end of the countershaft and a short belt on the other end drove the supercharger. this also reversed the direction so it was turning properly. in this configuration it solved the master cyl. problem same as our car. I def remember reading about this somewhere. anyone else???------------
i believe the problem was already solved as i mentioned before, this was done when the supercharger first came out. there was a countershaft assembly as i mentioned before. the pulley on the drivers side was fixed, and the belt ran through it and was adjusted on the front of the engine, the pulley was low down near the back of engine to solve any clearance problems,then an enclosed shaft ran to opposite side of the engine where there was more room,this drove a pulley which drove the supercharger. it sounds complicated but it was very compact. this gave you lot of room for the supercharger pulley. and everything else and took up almost no room on the drivers side. it was done for a civic but it had the same problems we had. if anyone else remembers seeing this,post any info you remember. as far as controls,if an a20 can be turboed, it can be supercharged,boost is boost, an ignition box that has a boost control like msd will help solve your detonation problems.
Chill out man! No one's hating here. I'm just very skeptical especially when a noob gets on here posting stuff about having lots of money and a project idea without at least considering some of the info that is already on here about that subject. Look at the old posts, look at the stickies, compare notes and come up with a good plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89ACCORDVTECH
When ShimriC got all hooked on the RWD 3G (as absurd as it sounded) I didn't jump on his case, in fact I was very supportive (as were many others) despite all the nay-sayers. But we gave that a few weeks and even after all of A20A1's ideas, schematics and actual research that project took a big shit and he went and bought another car. We're not trying to be assholes but we're just practical and a bit skeptical...
A lot of us have been on here longer than you and have seen people come and go with some great ideas and some pretty stupid-ass talking projects. The ideas that often receive praise are the one's that are well thought out even if they are borderline ridiculous. Do your homework, prove us wrong and we'll all believe it when we see it!
Do a little research, draw up some plans, write out your budget, take pics (and do a little photoshop or CAD) and take a little initiative to show people that your project isn't just a pipe dream and then I'm sure you'll see much less resistance within the forum community.
Good luck with your project! :thumbup:
^^^ well said
supercharging an a20 would be relatively easy compared to converting to rwd w/ an f20c like that one fellow was trying to do. just some time and effort and will to research. and have you (or anyone, for that matter) tried looking at the vortech sc and seeing how it might fit? you'd have to jimmy some things around, but it could be worth a look as well.
yea i hope someone can dig up some old info on the civic setup i was talking about,it would help a lot that some of the bugs had already been worked out in that project. they originally had a problem with the supercharger turning the wrong way and hiting the master cylinder. just transfering power from one side of the engine to the other was brilliant in my view.
this one has the pulley on the same side as ours,the other setup i saw had it on the oposite with the power transfer shaft.
http://www.streetsports.com/Photos/V...percharger.jpg
I'm sure you can do it! because i know somebody who actually supercharge an A20A1! :rockon: no joke bro. I don't know the details but he modified the engine to a bigger 2200cc displacement(overbore?sorry i'm a noob) changed the pistons, etc and ran on 10:1 compression or more i'm not really sure. I heard he dynoed at 180 hp. :deal:
yea this thing isn't that big, (the supercharger) i don't think you would have to go up to much bigger unless you wanted, i mean they run these on 1.5s all day,we've already got more displacment then every 1.5 ricer civic out there. vtech or not it's still a big tough iron block,people can run it down all day, but it's still bigger then a lot of hondas. 1.5 < 2.0
Another thing I would be curious to see but would never build myself is a centrifugally supercharged a20. I don't know exactly where the supercharger would fit, maybe just like the civic si kit, or maybe in the location of the a/c compressor..? I can almost guarantee it would make at Least 220 whp on 14 psi, on stock everything (except exhaust) if tuned correctly with a chipped obd-1 ecu. Upgrade and the sky (or your bank/credit card) is the limit. I would be impressed, but not That impressed to see a 300whp supercharged a20. Just don't try that on an old abused engine with pathetic oil pressure, you'll end up with an oil pan full of metal...and if you get any knock, your ring lands will break like they're made of glass. I have experienced both of those scenarios. You can use the j&s safeguard with the obd-1 ecu, factory honda knock control doesn't work. My friend's moderately high compression n/a ls/vtec would ping lightly on hot days for a second before the ecu would retard the timing, and after a couple months, he had 2 broken pistons..
I've done furhter research and i've decided to go with the vortech .The brackets i can machine at my work and i can fabricate all the plumbing and after cooler location . i'm going to relocate the power steering resevior and out stuff in the along with the complete OBD-1 p-75 conversion with the H23 fuel and ignition system . I have a couple other kinks to work out but everything looks good so far with the head and bottom end layout that i already have put together 300WHP should be an easily achievable goal. :rockon: :rice:
Uhh okay,, thats why supercharged K series and the new F series like in the S2K make way more power on a super charger than any turbo that they can get on there without having a tremendous amount of lag .Quote:
Originally Posted by bobafett
better luck next time
:uh:
Hmmmm, interesting thread... nothing really useful to add, but it did occur to me, a more common example of SC'ing a small engine in an even smaller space would be Toyota's supercharged MR-2s...Quote:
Originally Posted by phrenology
I think when people install the SC they think it's just bolt and go... they don't bother tuning it much or upgrading the engine management.
Some TRD SC users have a high rpm lean out issue that they said the factory ignored against the SC developers recommendations.
obviously i dont have any numbers in front of me, but everything i have read about supercharged F's seemed to be pretty sad. honestly i havent read much about supercharged K's, but i know that the turbocharged ones make really good power. (the k and f series motors are really good motors, and respond well)Quote:
Originally Posted by 89ACCORDVTECH
and yes you are totally right, any turbo'd honda that makes 400+ hp, is going to have to deal with significant turbo lag. its the name of the game.
im curious what your realistic goal is for completing this project, so i know when i should check back and see the status. you already know how i feel about the project, but that doesnt change the fact that i would love to see it accomplished. :)
What do you mean by the h23 fuel and ignition system, h23 injectors and an h23 distributor? I would at least get the dsm 450s.. Are you going to incorporate a knock sensor into your setup? You might be able to find a J&S safeguard on ebay for a good deal, I've done that twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89ACCORDVTECH
p.s. supposedly spec makes a nice clutch for these cars, it is custom though, but when you see how nothing else will hold shit for power, that's what you get..
My money is for a setup that will work not for a setup that will cost me more money and give me the same numbers . Trust me the research that i've done on the H23 fuel system and the amount of H-series motors that i've built that will out run any K-series of now in any car ,no offense but i will stick with my original idea. Check out my shop site at www.swapshopracing.com
:uh: j/k
so what ever happend to this?
if you are going supercharger rout try to get vortech or procharger. you can mount them where AC compressor is. You just have to make a braket for it.
the issue with jackson racing is brake booster. it will hit the brake booster.
on Right Hand Drive cars it may work just fine.
i was thinking a centrifugal force because of its mounting location...i really dont wana have to cut into the strut tower and have to weld in metal on the inside to re-enfoce it...seems like it would be cool...and the sound would be pretty unique
ya liek he said try a procharger ive been looking into this my self and the only thing im running into is running the charge pipe
cut a hole in your hood and have it stick out :-p
lol no thanks i just have to find a sc that exits right out the back so i can run the pipeQuote:
Originally Posted by ZackieDarko
