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what do you guy's think would be the best way to go stand alone?
i have a holley commander950...
4g dist.
vacume to digital conversion from crane.
hall effect pickup.
magnetic pickup.
so far the crane conversion has the best price, easier to install.
let me know what you guy's think!:)
Hmm... i prolly woulda just gone OBD-1 honda instead of full standalone. So let me get this straight, you have a crane digital ignition right now and a holley commander 950? What is wrong with this setup and what are you trying to achieve... i honestly dont know much about it.
i already have the commander,from a previos turbo project whitch didn't need anything extra to control ignition timming.
i dont know much on the crank triggers either, but i need to convert over to digital or electronic controlled dist or trigger.
i am looking to find the best possible and most reliable way to control timming.
why would you go with obd-1 vs standalone? just currious.
my goal is probbably unreasonable so i wont answer that.
Price and driveability of going obd1 seems to be better than standalone, but with either youll get digital ignition with the distributor, but the most accurate ignitions are electronic distributorless crank trigger'd wasted spark type setups (with coilpacks instead of a distributor) which can be adapted to either setup i believe. Thats gonna take some time and money to setup. For me personally, obd1 with electronically controlled timing is more than adequate.
thank's for the info.
Afriend of mine said there was a write up "coil on plug" on honda-tech but for the life of me i couldn't find it. More searching i guess.
I would definately look at doing that.
I need to get a hand-full of other part's before i go standalone.
no time like the present to start planning.
coil on plug is real good too but ive never seen an aftermarket conversion to run it either with a stand alone or a honda ecu. Most new hondas are coil on plug too.
this is what i found so far on a dis system.
electromotive dis system http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/electro3a.htm
and still nothing on coil on plug.
one thought MEGASQUIRT
what about neptune?
j/k:)
i have a standalone.
i am looking for the best way to control timming.
you know spark up a descussion.:rofl:
I know we are limmited on what we can do with our engines but I think there is more here not only for turbo guy's but the na guy's as well.
I was hopin someone would catch what i did with the link.
i dont need something to control timming..
i need the trigger.
"my goal is probbably unreasonable so i wont answer that."
400 or #2 on the list. the list does need to be updated btw....
here i did it for you.::rofl:
..quite possibly what I'll end up withQuote:
Originally Posted by 89turbo'ed
what do you think, rtp vs s300?
Why did you choose the Holley? Do you have any of this installed yet?
I have heard nothing but good things about neptune, with a good tuner you'r destined for good dyno numbers.
I went with holley becuase i got it fairly cheap. you know the money thing.
as for triggers i haven't decided yet.
i still need injector's, intake manifold, throttle body, vaccumme block, wide band ect.
before i install it.
Even though Neptune is cheaper isn't it olso easier to tune than the AEM EMS. I'm still stuck on which is a good way to go for my turbo setup.
I don't understand..89turbo'ed, you want to have Separate controllers for fuel and ignition? And you're going to have intake air and coolant temp timing and fuel compensation with that? If not, all the 'accuracy' with a crank triggered system would be totally pointless. And what about knock control, closed loop fuel control, datalogging, etc, etc? I would adapt an obd-1 factory system, or get the aem ems, which still has to be adapted.
So then its 'ostrich'+cromePRO vs hondata s300vs neptune rtp vs aem ems. All real time programmable, and probably all almost as good, I don't know. Aem is really expensive, but supposedly you can use cbr coil on plug ignition with that. There is a writeup on H-T about that.
dont let the price fool you...
neptune is alote easier to tune than the AEM EMS, with more funtionability.
shoot a pm over to Servion on honda-tech. He has tuned both and is a athurized dealer of neptune.
here are some of his work..
http://www.serviontuning.com/tuned.php
look at the stock h22 #'s
no sir i just threw that one out there...Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
the commander will control timming with a trigger as well the fuel as you stated.
it has data logging real time programming, the whole nine yards...
i am fixin to send it in to get the pro software and wideband installed.
with the commander i can run closed loop, open loop, alpha-n, or speed density.
I'll look for the thread on the cbr thanks.
SDS.. is my friend...
I haven't played with it to much.. But i know thats what i'm gonna use with my turbo set up...
If you have money AEM is not a bad choice and they now have a functionaly OBD-0 available. I ran my turbo B20A with a OBD-1 AEM EMS and it was great for the most part. Just check around for competent tuners in your area cause i paid big bucks to have someone travel here to help me out. Im going to still aim for 350+ WHP cause a friend has a prelude B20A putting that down so i should be able to do that with ease consider the stuff i have once i get a new turbo.
If your on a budget neptune is said to be very good but remember its only as good as the tuner. Iv seen a lot of hackers so you might have a good system but a bad tuner will turn you away from any system if not done right. Good luck with your setup hopefully i can bring a better video next summer but for now im set on buying an 06 EVO MR for a daily driver and hopefully get the accord done cause iv dragged it out way to long granted the amount of money spent on it is a rediculous amount no matter how you look at it.
supposedly the neptune rtp can interface with your laptop wirelessly via bluetooth, qualifying it for pimp status in my book. I also don't like hondata just on principle, I don't like their support and I'm just a counter the status quo kind of guy. They were also behind the curve with their previous systems.
As far as tuning, personally, I would Never hire anyone to tune my car. Every Single time I have Ever hired Anyone to do Anything to my car, they have fucked it up. Seriously. Shit, I just paid Rywire for my b series conversion harness, and I had to redo about half of it to get the wires where they needed to be. To me, tuning is the final aspect to the educational process, once you have selected all of your components, built the engine, wiring, mounts, turbosystem, etc. Why do we do this, modify cars? (especially an old ass car like the 3g) To be express yourself, to learn, to compete, paying someone else and giving up an opportunity to learn just isn't the same.
"To me, tuning is the final aspect to the educational process, once you have selected all of your components, built the engine, wiring, mounts, turbosystem, etc. Why do we do this, modify cars? (especially an old ass car like the 3g) To be express yourself, to learn, to compete, paying someone else and giving up an opportunity to learn just isn't the same."
LOL. Amen. I'm glad to see someone else who thinks the same.
I agree with you AccordTheory but, the problem at least in the view that I see it is I personally don't have enough competence/confidence in myself to tune it and have it function and run correctly much less as best as it can. So I try to do everything I can but, when I come to something that I personally can't do I hire it done and try to arrange it to where I can come by and watch them work. I would love to learn how to tune a car but, I'm not sure how to. I know the "basic principles" but, I guess you could compare it to book smarts that you learn about a subject in college and then actually doing the job in the "real world". The book smarts might help you a little in your job but, you have to learn how it "really works" and that can contain some very very expensive lessons and if you don't have the money to counter the expenses you go out of buisness or lose your job.
Hopefully you can see the comparison I'm trying to draw. I just find it hard to get the "real world" experience needed to successfully tune your engine. Any guidence on that subject would be great but, for now that's my .02cents.
I agree with what you'r saying, but I am smart enough to know that I am not very good at tunning an ecu. So instead of guessing what i am doing I can learn from someone who tunes it for a living. I am a mechanical type person I can build or make almost anything. When it comes to something as technical as tunning a ecu, I guess you can say that i am not comfertible doing something that i dont know alot about.
thats just me.
I agree and i got the best feeling this summer taking my car to the honda-tech show in CT and just hanging around my hometown at some shops. People do a tripple take and ask "what yeah is that accord" and they're like holly crap thats a sleeper. This is one reason i never settled for any car and i honestly love the accord style and layout its almost flawless in my eyes. Iv driven many cars and for some reason id still take the accord over many other cars. As for tuning i dont feel any where near competent enough to do what has been done to my car already. The thing is when it comes to tuning and an engine i spent $15k+ its not worth blowing it up over something stupid. Granted iv had plenty of issues thus far but none tuning related that im aware of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Robs89LXi
Well, I also have the luxury of not having to use my 3G as my daily driver. It is a lot easier to experiment and take your time learning when you don't have to depend on your toy for daily transportation. Since I do though, then yes, I would much rather learn how whatever system I use works, than just blindly depending on someone else. That way, even if you get to a point where you will need help, at least you have a much better idea of what is going on. Long term, you are a lot better off as well, especially if you constantly update your car.
Just a little tag on here too:
I would sure hope that everyone, and anyone who does go boost, or upgrade engine management, will share what they have done on this forum. Thanks.
Fuck hondata. I think that some SDS systems are pretty good, as are megasquirt etc... i dont know much about neptune though. I prefer to run open loop all the time (and i do, lol). If your good enough a tuner, running openloop all the time can actually increase your gas mileage out of boost and simplify tuning (at least i think so)
tell us how you really feel. :)
i took this right out of the book.
closed loop defines the engine operation where the fueling level is calculated and corrected by the ecu from the o2 sensor.when the o2 sensor emits a voltage signal above .45 volts due to a rich mixture ,the ECU reduces the fueling level by reducing the pulse width of the injector.
open loop defines the engine operation where the fueling level is calculated by the ECU with only the input signals from the tps, coolant, and/or air charge temp,and from the map sensor.
from that i would expect increased fuel milage in closed loop during normal driving, and open loop under lead-foot conditions.
i got a link from h-tech.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1344468
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1170475
Some of those systems even have an 'autotune' function, you can set the a/f value to what you want, and it will figure out the pulsewidth itself. (obviously with a wideband) I think neptune has that. I guess most of those setups don't tune the ignition though.. I know of one system that used a g sensor, presumably to alter ignition timing on the fly to determine maximum brake torque like a dyno, but I don't know about that anymore. Cybernation has some interesting things out there for the k20 also. The 'guardian'
What's wrong with the s300? You just don't like the price tag?Quote:
Originally Posted by AccordEpicenter
The only reason why cars don't run in closed loop under full throttle is they don't come with a wideband o2. Some cars do now though. The most popular wideband sensor used by the aftermarket is a vw part, but you already know that..
Actually, as far as open loop all the time, I know why you said that, you just want to run at 15-15.5:1 under cruise instead of 14.7, with a little more timing. You can still do that in closed loop, you just have to set it to do that in your program with the wideband.
Now, does anyone know why running leaner than stoichiometric can give you better mpg? it's not an obvious, easy answer..
I would have to guess,that is where an engine makes the most power..
11- 12;1 range.
althogh I could be wrong...
I thought i would give it try...
ehh i think the hondata guys are snotty, and all that shyt is mad expensive... And yes that is why id like to run open loop all the time
I'm telling you, guys... check out PGMFI.org. We can do anything we want with the stock Honda ECUs. You may need to use one from a Civic or Integra, but the wiring is nearly Identical. Crome Pro also has the Autotune feature, and works very well coupled with an Ostrich real-time programming/updating circuit, and a wide-band oxygen sensor meter. You can tune on a dyno, or on the street. And this stuff is all made by small companies and supported by a huge DIY community with tons of experience. Don't give your money to ZDyne, Hondata, AEM, or the like. They make plenty, and don't have the kind of support infrastructure they should.
I think the price goes like this: ostrich+ cromePro<neptune rtp<hondata s300<aem ems. I think for n/a, the ostrich+uberdata would be ok. I need to check up on the neptune setup though, I don't even know if it's out yet..I think it was supposed to be though..
You're not alone with that sentiment..shit, if I would have known how much I'd spend on this stupid car before I did anything, I would have just sold it..Quote:
Originally Posted by RobT5580
96+ civic hatch: No soul, but no weight either, perfect turbo b series car.
I've been talking to this other guy named Hugues here's his cardomain site>> He wrote in french it just so happens i know french. http://lowrider.cardomain.com/ride/771359/1 He is running Megasquirt and he gots his up and running. I'm tring to get him to come on the site. I know gf-r-g88 on here talked to him too. I'll talk to him some more to see how he likes it.
check this out.
a friend of mine just got neptuned.
he was rollin the blue box,dynoed with the blitz power meter(like the g-tech)
he had a previous best of 234hp
put the p28+neptune on a street tune and came up with 278hp on his power meter. thats 44 hp difference!
he didn't make any other changes to his car.
i cant wait for dyno #'s.
speaking of stand alone's...
F22 dizzy...
wire diagrams with and without internal coil?
even a shop drawing will work.
anyone have one?
(theres another new post on page 2)
I could imagine...
3 set's of tires a year.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SKUNK...QQcmdZViewItem
plus a 70mm throttle body...
550 injectors, or shall i say screw it and go 1000cc injectors.
i am going stand alone so it would'nt be a problem either way.
anyone?
Go for it....Hey PM me I wanna ask you a few Q's about your Turbo set up, mainly your dizzy, and fuel management.
Why not just get the aebs? Probably just as good, like within 1hp, and about $150, instead of $230. The S2 is a 'direct bolt on', and smog legal, but not to the a20 anyway, so who cares.. But if you like the skunk2 better, go for it.
no b series mannifold is a direct bolt on. they all need moddification.
if you wanna be that ballin and get the S2 intake manny--go for it. and as far as the carb legal thing.....yeah it may not be carb legal on the a20 but they dont know that. if forsome reason someone is looking under his hood, and htey see the sticker...chances are they will say alright. not deffinate but its a possibility.
aebs typhoon>skunk2 intake mani. Its cheaper too. Im thinking about getting a 65-70mm tb too, they are just damn expensive!
Thanks for asking this 89turbo b/c I was wondering the same thing! :)
why the aebs typhoon over the skunk2?Quote:
Originally Posted by AccordEpicenter
i figure why go in it half way when you can suprise the shit out of people when you open the hood of an old ass accord.
You for one should know the look, when you pull away!
it's just like anything else, you'r buying the name.
for those that think i am ballin; this is a hobby for me, It keep's me out of the bars, off drugs, gives me something to build (I do the fab work myself) and i would be damb'ed if i did'nt like to go fast!
you'r right the tb's arent cheap. I have 70mm from a 5.0 mustang that i'm going to try and fit. I need the intake first to see what modifications will need to be done, or if i need to make an adaptor plate.
either way i'll make it work.
pm'edQuote:
Originally Posted by Bglad420
I said "but not to the a20 anyway, so who cares". The aebs is not a direct bolt on to the engine it is meant for either, you still have to fuck with the vacuum lines, etc to make everything fit. The s2 fits like stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3g Jester
I think the S2/oem type r/aebs manifolds are all pretty comparable, just like the victor x/bbk/revhard manifolds, or AIR/endyn/full race manifolds. The first category tries not to sacrifice mid range efficiency, the 2nd category does in favor of higher rpm power, and the 3rd category is just better engineering overall, to the tune of like 40whp over the victor x on a high boost application, with a fatter powerband too.Quote:
Originally Posted by 89turbo'ed
I would choose the aebs over the S2 because it I believe it has a larger plenum.
man, this site is all retarded right now..it just tried to multiply my post
What about the venom intake??? How does that compare????
Venom intakes are pretty sweet, but i'm sure those would need modification also. Or do they make them for the a20?
The only venom i've seen is on a 4g63 motor.
I'm gonna agree about the AEM cuz it is the same exact thing for half price. Who cares about opening the hood and seeing Skunk... I mean doesn't skunk shit stink anyway?? lol lol just kidding...:Owned:
Yeah deadhead venom makes intakes for the b series engines but, they're $500 bucks. Quite a bit more but, to me it seems like they're engineered very well. They've got runners going into the square/rectangle plenum w/ velocity stacks on them. It seems like they did their homework or at least they did it for the engine that the part was intended for. As for accordtheory's post I've never heard of AIR/endyn/full race manifolds where do you get those minus the full race manifolds b/c I'm assuming you mean scratch/custom built mani's but what about the AIR and endyn where can you buy those and for that matter what are good online car part sources besides inlinefour.com.
Also, what about the plan jane stock ITR manifold? Do a little clean-up port matching would that flow very well?
endyn worked with advanced induction research on that carbon fiber manifold, which is awesome, (well over 1k$) but is no longer available. So now endyn is offering their own fabricated manifolds. The new manifold sold by full race (around 800$, I believe) looks to me like a copy of the AIR in aluminum. I don't know about the venom, but it looks like the GE, and I don't think much of those..but if it has an aerodynamically correct transition into the runners..whatever.
I can't really see myself spending more than about $250 on an intake manifold. I'll probably either end up with the aebs again or the victor x when I get my vtec head..
the civic type r is the same as the integra type r right??
I don't know, but I wouldn't bet on it..Quote:
Originally Posted by gfrg88
Not exactly. Their manifolds probably will flow negligibly differently, though.
Get the BLOX. It flows with the best skunk2 has to offer. Both would be great for n/a.
Nothing will compare with Endyn's stuff, but who has that retarded kind of money? If I were rich, I'd just send the whole motor to Endyn and have them build it.
And definitely get some 4.6L and 5.0L TB's going. that's part of my project for this spring. Though I thought they were all 65mm. Both use .2-5V signal, just as Honda. "But, they wont' necessarily provide the same signal at say, half, as a honda one will, and everything will be thrown off"... If you're upgrading your TB by such a significant amount anyway, I hope you're doing something else to make sure you're running right anyway (i.e. SAFC), and I hope you find the performance benefit that you deserve for your work.
As far as vacuum, making a vacuum box is your best bet. You could buy them (expensive), or fab one. My friend is going to fab me one with 20 vacuum lines, so that I can plug all my vacuums into the vacuum box, and the vacuum blox will pull vacuum from a big tap in the BLOX.
I'm excited.
good luck with your project
so my real question is will the civic type r IM need the same work as b18c5?? will it fit the a20 head?? cause im getting one from someone on here
i already have the ford setup... so with the stand alone i will have no voltage problems. thats with the ford tb and ford tps.
for vacume the only thing i can think of right now will be the 3 bar map sensor and master cylender.(spelling?)
but that's nothing.
what i am getting at is what ever i do it can be done.
i am also looking to adapt the ford eecIv dizzy on a honda but that will be in time.
buy it get the a20 gasket and match it up..if it does match up.
drill holes and port match.
bump...
anyone going standalone soon?
so no one knows for sure if i just have to drill new holes or what??
what engine # is the type r civic? b18c1 b18c5????
if i knew i would post.
not sure which one its from, its a b16 something i think :dunno:
Even if they did provide the same voltage vs throttle position, that wouldn't mean much, considering how much more air the larger tb would be flowing for that voltage output.Quote:
Originally Posted by Versanick
it should work.port matching and drilling like 2 new holes.
Of course someone knows..b16, type r, same thing. yes, you have to drill a few holes..and port match your head's intake ports to the b16/type r gasket. The a20 ports aren't as tall. Not that big of a deal, but will take most of a day to do the swap properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by gfrg88
well i wasnt sure if they were the same, so the si and the type r are basically the same then right?? im still learning lol
"basically", but the manifolds still might be slightly different. The heads might differ as far as chamber size/shape, "factory porting", undercut valve stems, and valve springs. Of course the b16 block, crank, rods and pistons are different, and the b16 block doesn't have a girdle either. I don't know if the ctr or itr heads are the same or have the b16 chambers or the gsr chambers. I want a gsr head for my engine.
I'm going standalone but i won't make my decision untill 2 more weeks. I'm still talking to this tune in NC that is a Neptune tuner/Dealer I'm also looking into the trigger crank sys. too. Only bad thing is that he is 3 hours away but it's close enough though.
A friend of mine is using an Autronic standalone ECU in his car, and that system is awesome... things like launch control can also be hooked up.. Wicked system if any of you have yet to decide/
Only bad thing about neptune is that there is not many tuners for it and you have to keep going back to the tuner and can't tune it yourself whichmakes you go back to the same tuner all the time.
neptune is Supposedly coming out with a real time system that you can learn to tune yourself. It is taking forever to come out, but looks like it be better than hondata's s300. I just downloaded the SManager for the s300, and am Not impressed with its lack of load points on the map axis for low boost levels. (like under 20 psi)
Hey 89 Turboed, I'd be interested in your current setup when you get a new one, PM me and let me know!
From the looks of it when i was talking to the tuner(P1auto) Neptune is steps above hondadata by far.
the only thing i woulden't need anymore is the btm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bglad420
What would you want for it, would it be complete (instructions)Quote:
Originally Posted by 89turbo'ed
yup! till i do it i'll wait on price.
so pm me with this subject so i dont forget.
I'm happy with chrome now. I'm looking into megasquirt to get rid of the dizzy, but you guys can have a $300 set up and still be more then happy with it.
i am sitting here lookin at a d16y8 dizzy and it is looking like a really good match for the old accord.
bolt holes look like there going to match up pretty good.
i need to do alittle grinding and move a water line but nothing extensive.
good deal justin.
My buddy has an old non working d16 dizzy.....
i have a fresh one here, i am going to begin fitment today.
well it fit's. range of motion kinda sucks but with alittle cutting and welding she'll be as good as stock.
the other thing is that i am going to have to clock the cam key to match the a20 cam key.
I may be getting rid of the holley commander and doing the obd1 with neptune.
I am pricing everything now.
let's see if i remember how to do this!
apparently not.
reposting....
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6...ture0040hj.jpg
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5...ture0266cv.jpg
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3...ture0457iy.jpg
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6916/picture0469zr.jpg
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/7...ture0493ub.jpg
t/3to4e stage 3 62-1
horrible failure, lol... none of it works.
very nice!!! is that a civic rad your running?? what brand is its? and does it seem to cool off the engine enough or does it over heat???
keep up the good work, and post up some dyno numbers when your done with it :thumbup:
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3...ture0354bv.jpg
bi-core koyo race rad.92-95 civic
it should keep it cool ,technically it is the same size as the oem rad being that the oem is a single core.
Looks good... kinda hard to see much from those pics cuz theyre so small. Is that a skunk2 intake mani?
Bigger Pics!!!!
hawt
how good does that 62-1 work? What boost level are you at again? When does it spool?
bigger pics are much better... pretty nice setup you have going on there.
sweet mother of god!!! thats sweet!!!
thanks cheese. I'll get more picks as i progress.
the hybrid vs a straight t3, The differance is crazy!
the t-3 pulled hard from start to finnish at 12.5psi.
the hybrid was alittle laggie but when it came under full boost(@4500rpm) the car would straight come un-glue'd! the power differance was crazy.
I am looking for 4+ball's on the dyno. we'll see or blow it up tryin.
ok thats not too terrible, my .63 exhaust housing was fully boosted by around 4000 and blew the tires loose when it hit... Post your dyno sheets when you get them!!
