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I had to post this twice the computers at work are gay with this website.
Here's my Idea
Twin Carbed Manifold
Accord FI/Prelude Header cut off and remade into a 4-2 with 2 indvidual reso, cats and mufflers
engine parts.
camshaft
a second a20 engine to rebuild
water pump
oil pump
new gas pump
umm can't think of anything else right now.
put up some opnions i'm expecting to spend ~$700 for all this.
THanks guys.
what is your goal? im very lost. are you going to bore it out? do a stock rebuild or performance.
It would be better to keep the 4-2-1 together at the header then split them with an X pipe where the cat is.
If you do go your way, don't get too large of exhaust pipe, 2" at most.
You really don't need the extra CFM of flow if you're only running on 2 cylinders per pipe, it's only about ~1000cc displacement.
Assuming a 2" pipe flows about 360 CFM, you'll have about 720 CFM flow total from the pipes, but your cat and muffler will determine how much restriction is added. 720CFM supports about 327 HP with little build up of backpressure.
The car will sound different because you'll hear the gap between the cylinders firing.
Check out this thread, I list the SMSP and other High flow Cats. Not cheap though.
https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352
not gay, you ment to say you could not connect properly to the website.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
and im with messyhonda. i really have no idea what goals you have in mind, or how your going to get there. Have you ever rebuilt an engine before? Are you going to have a shop do this? What numbers are you looking at putting down? are you just trying to slap something together better then what you have stock?
and with the "cant think of anything else right now line" i am worried. it means your not putting the required amount of thought and effort into rebuilding your engine. its a large under taking. dont half ass it.
I just said cause that's all i could come up with at the time cause i worked 4 16 hour days so i'm a bit loopy to say the least.
hey a20 why is it better to split the pipe rather than piping the cylinders seperate?? would'nt that allow for more torque??
thanks for the answers.
Hrm, Wouldn't there be more chances for vacuum in the primaries if all 4 were tied together at some point.
The length of the secondaries can be changed, so if you want to make the secondaries longer before they meet it will effect the tq. You're pretty much stuck with what you got in terms of primary length... I think you should lenghten those instead if you're going to split the exhaust up the way you do.
If you keep the same diameter pipe right of the secondaries all the way to the back, it will throw out any timing of the exhaust pulses. So if you run it your way , you might want to think about adding a step in the secondaries to create a pulse earlier... maybe use the cats as a step by upping their inlet diameter, that way when the secondaries meet the sudden increase in diameter of the cat pipe you get a pulse.
Chances for making the most of your setup right off the bat is slim... and you're not making it better by sticking to the primary length the header comes with. You should just build one from scratch with Y pipes. That way you can lenghten the primaries.
actually if you run dual exhaust from the head all the way back you will lose low end and but you will pick up top end.
yep. kinda like going with a 4" exhaust, sort of. you get the idea....Quote:
Originally Posted by shepherd79
damn i got it backward. I'm aiming more for torque top end i could care less for theres not place to really find out how fast i can go.
:huh: youre looking for more torque at the top end?? what?!? im lost. i think you still have a lot of reading to do buddy.:welcome:Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
1) Choosing Type of Header; 4-1 or 4-2-1Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
Plan where you want to make power and what kind of driving you will be doing.
Long pipes move the power up in the RPM, Short pipes move the power down in the RPM
- 4-2-1 offers more usable/broader rpm range and often more torque through cylinder pairing.
- 4-1 have longer primaries in most cases moving torque up in the powerband
- Long Tubed 4-2-1 Does the same as a 4-1 but offers the advantage of cylinder pairing.
So you'll make tq but chances are if you run it your way you'll have tq down low because of the really short primaries... but then once you're out of that narrow rpm range, who knows what will happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gfrg88
You can do that... assuming the power is based on curves you can move the curve back or forward in the rpm range by adjusting the header pipe lenghts, valve timing, and ignition timing.
It's called i don't proofread. I prefer more Torque than top end cause therse no room here for top end. I like leaving people in the dust.
lack of sleep is very bad.
I just finized welding up the 2" Cherry bomb muffler it's very quiet. but i no longer have the block around 2000-2500 rpm so if that's just a 2" mufler imagine when the whole thing is piped :)
adjustable cam gear FTW.....it helps you get low end....top end or just leave it stock....one of the best mods i ever did.
true how much is one of those gears?
OK i went looking through IPP now i have an idea of what want.
Stock REbuild (cause they don't have a High performance kit)
-HV oil pump
-HV Water pump
Camshaft (not sure by what company yet)
Cam Gear
Clutch (not sure what brand)
Flywheel
Header Pacesetter or custom built or modified stock.
Accel ignition kits (possible)
Pulley kit if available.
and then obviously i have to learn which 2 carbs to buy and have the manifold made, because i don't think i can do that but only time will tell.
obviously i also need a 5-speed tranny and all the parts for the tranny swap.
man..you got alot of work...i say you sell your car and get a fuel injected 5 speed.
If you are looking for ideas and where to get stuff check my engine build thread over on Preludepower.
http://preludepower.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238337
I even listed part numbers and prices. $700 is not much money if you need any machine work done.
C|
yes they don't make HP rebuild kits but you can piece it all together. there are parts available, you just have to search and look for them. We have all the info on this site. Just don't expect to get all the info on the white plater with a blue ribon.
with ported head and medium grind cam with dual webers you can make about 130hp at the wheels easy.
Would it be possible to throw on a VTEC head off of a, say F22 and then just use some Weber DCOE's? I've seen similiar things done to a few Civic's on this other Honda forum that I post on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspec1
yeah...i dont think anyone has done that...i remember some one trying to put a DOHC head but they never got it to run. the best way to get DOHC and vtec is to do an engine swap.
I was refering to the SOHC VTEC F22.Quote:
Originally Posted by MessyHonda
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspec1
why would you want to put a 140hp engine...the mounts would cost more money than its worth...best way is stick a b18 or b20
I believe he was referring to the F22 SOHC head swap, not engine swap.Quote:
Originally Posted by MessyHonda
SOHC is way cooler.
Regardless, the answer is NO. The heads from the F and H series engine will NOT bolt up. The cylinder spacing is substantially different. With MASSIVE modification to the block and the head, you COULD use a DOHC VTEC B-Series head. But it would be cheaper, easier, and make more power with less weight to just install a whole B-Series engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndGenGuy
lol...thats wut im saying...if some one can make a a20 run 9s why cant you..lol
Yes, but with slight modification you could use a DOHC B-series head.
...A B20A series head, that is...
hmm it is alot of work i saw this other accord same exact car only with 5 speed for $950 which i have seriously haggle down cause it's has double the amount of miles i have now. 160k.
I'll approach him with $500 cash and see what happens.
is it fuel injected?Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
I hope not.
Me like the carburation sound and power bands. TORQUE RULES!
Okay I think everyone was under the impression of me wanting to put a SOHC head on a DOHC block.I already know that wont work. But I was wondering about doing some sort of mini-me swap. Basically swapping a SOHC VTEC head ( F22) onto an A20 block, and then using Weber DCOE's and the whole nine yards.. I've seen carbed SOHC VTEC's in Civic's before and I was just wondering it was possible with F22 Head/A20 block?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabuki
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
LOL carbs have no torque compared to my fuel injected car....its nice to have a lil pull in 5th gear....on my carb it just revs up and nothing happens...lol
Real performance cars are still being built with carburators, i.e. Custom hot rods ad etc.
i just like the powerband I like the agressive pull ithas in 2nd gear.
Theres only a few things that might not work with your plans. You need to know how much the parts you want cost before you set a price. Heres a small list, im estimating on parts, the prices depend on where you get the parts from and the condition.
5-Speed swap - $400-$500 (if you do it yourself)
Pacesetter header- $180(new)
Rebuild Kit- $300(and you have to do the work yourself)
ADJ Cam Gear- $150
Water and oil pumps- $150
Clutch and flywheel- $200
Camshaft- $80
Accel wires-$30
Carbs-$??? (not sure)
And you said nothing about an exhaust other then something about a cherrybomb muffler, and if you still have the stock diameter pipe with cheap muffler you will not gain much power at all, you mught actually loose power due to no backpressure. A pacesetter exhaust is around $190. Your plans of doing all of the things you listed for $950 might not happen.
The simple answer is NO. It won't work. NO other cylinder head will bolt up to our block. D or F series are totally different engines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspec1
custom hot rods have V8 engines in them. the only reason people put carbs is because they don't want to mess with computers.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
it is a lot easier to adjust carb than stand alone system, but they are getting easier and easier to work with. So it is all about preference. I like EFI. I had carb accord and i had it running on holley 2bbl cab, it was great, but the torque wasn't there. when i got EFI accord, i could feel the diff in low end power. my upper end power was about the same as carbed one with holley.
Yeah I'm really Thinking about getting that car and just doing a B20 Swap and a Turbo Installation, A Serious long term project car. Like for a year or more. around maybe $3k-4K
made another list of parts.
B20A5 Engine - $350 ??
B20 Tranny - ???
High Performance Bearings - $99
Fuel Pressure Reg -$??
Engine Oil Cooler - ??
Transmission Fluid Cooler - ??
2 Camshafts - $139 Each -(too many choices for this)
16 Rocker Arms - $19
8 Intake Valves - $9
8 Exhaust Valves - $9
Adjustable Cam Gears - $??
Clutch - $?:?? (too many damn Choieces)
pistons & rods - $$$ Very expensive.
Crank shaft - $???
Or i found for $979 Engine rebuild kit.
-complete gasket set
-copper performance gasket
-Ross/Wiseco pistons
performance rings/wrist pins
main bearings, rod bearings
thrust washers timing belt.
8 lbs Flywhell - $319
Injetors
Ignition Control system - $179 Accel's 275
pacesetter header - 169 (might do a custom header)
Head Work (maybe)
Accel COil - $70
Custom Intake - Cost of pipes.
K&N Air Filter >$40
High Volume Oil Pump - ????
Piston rings - $22/ Cylinder
Crank Pulley - $185
all these prices are from IPP tell me what you guys think.
THanks.
that is the 3rd gen prelude engine...it wont fit into our cars...you need the JDM 2nd gen lude or the 3rd gen accord...they are in NZ/japan/europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
Oh contrare, with a MIG welder and some scrapyard parts, any Honda motor w/transmission plus axles and maybe spindles with bearings.....would go in...roughley speakingQuote:
Originally Posted by MessyHonda
But DDRaptor, a B18 is probably the most reasonable choice if you want to swap.
And Shep, 130 hp ,... thats it????ported and polished head and dual carbss, plus exhaust header and some skills only gets 130 hp outta A20.. . I will take your word for it but it is depressing. Here we are debating fuel inj vs carb, and the fuelly puts out 118 or so stock. Makes a bad case for us carb guys.
B18 can be modded to 200 hp without comprismising daily drivability, or your time and $$$ compared to a frankenstiened motor combo.
yeah i know roodoo...with money and skills you can fit a small block in our cars. but yeah the prelude engine tilts too much back..like 22 degrees. so the b18 is the better choice to put into our cars. and yeah the b18 also makes 160hp. and you take 15% of that due to drivetrain. that is 136whp....the a20 makes 122hp for the fuel injected model so we get 103.7whp. and yeah roodoo you can make close to 140hp on the a20 with intake, exhuast, cam, headers, ignition and a port and polished head. but even that would only give you like 119whpQuote:
Originally Posted by roodoo2
ok key word being whp.. got ya...Quote:
Originally Posted by MessyHonda
Damn so wait which B20 would i be looking for. and why the smaller displacement i was under the impression the b20 is easier to swap in.
laters gotta park a plane.
Is $350 a decent price for the engine cause that's what i costs around here.
If you want B20A, you have to call someone outside the US. You are looking for JDM or EDM B20A that came in 86-89 accord or 86-87 prelude. You won't find that kind of engine at the junk yard. Plus it will cost you more than $350 for the engine. about $1500 is a good price for the engine and 5 speed tranny.
so wait which b20 are they selling cause they are an import by shea stadium in queens. ny. All there engines are supposdly JDM i need to call and find out.
So wait the JDM b20 is just B20?? that's not like the US B20A5 etc ...??
i guess i'm just looking for the exact term.
jdm b20a1 from the 2nd gen lude or 3rd gen honda accord...somewhat rare to find. your best bet is to get a integra b18
DD you really should take some time to read around this huge infinate forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
B20 are around in junkyards but it is like finding a 50 dollar bill on the floor at walmart. It happens but not very frigggen often. If you can get a JDM B20 it aint gonna be for 350 unless , of course there is ten hundred dollar bills on the floor as you walk in the place. :bong:
We are all saying if you want to build a streetable daily driver 3Gen that is actually fast as a stock newer model, you are best off doing the B18 swap. Parts are plenty and easy to get, and less expenisive when you start upgrading the engine with reasonable mods. And the B18 is known to hold up under extreme mods as well. Smaller displacement does not mean less power, as examples the D16Z engines have more HP than A20 series , both in stock form, OK you all, better example... in stock form 4.6 liter Ford engines have more HP than 5.8 Windsors. It is how much torque the engine can put out in a short amount of time before the rpm is out of mechanical capability of the engine question. the 4.6 is DOHC, the B18 is DOHC.
That said , SOHC motors still rock, so do OHV engines.:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:
Point noted. They say it's JDM using the pictures that were posted here i'm gonna swing by the place today and see what it really looks like.
Thanks alot for you patience, and the B18 is defintly on my mind.
as long as all my mods can make it reach north of 200hp and 180ft-lbs of torque.
then after i reach 200 it's time for the super/turbo charger :) time to put some nissans in there place.
Hey i've researched and i'm defintly gonna do just a nice build and a turbo/supercharger (electric) on the exsisting engine.
Now i just have to buy the car lol.
edit thanks for all the advice and i will defintly search first when i start to researching parts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
yeah with the right set up like (accordeterpriser?) did you can be puting down more than a b20...plus the parts are cheap...if you blow a tranny you can get one at the junkyard the next day
AccordEpicenter.Quote:
Originally Posted by MessyHonda
He can get a tranny at a junkyard that is if they have a 3gee.
Epicenter is running i believe very low boost, i want to get it around ~15-17psi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
get his SN on aim....i was talking to him....and he knows his turbo stuff...also check out homemadeturbo.com tells you wut kind of junkyard turbos are good and bad. 15-17 psi is crazy.....that thing would rocket you...lol
I may be wrong but i belive he was doing 10psi.
Well i'm aiming at killing V6 Maximas with this car. :)
btw Merry Christmas, and hopefully to all that are working today (like me) let's hope the holiday pay is worth it.
Edit are LSD available for this transmisson even though i seriously doubt it.
Hahaha! I'm gonna so fuckin prove you wrong!Quote:
Originally Posted by shepherd79
hey what are the turbos that the guys have used cause there are alot of used garretts for relativly cheap ~$100 on ebay but i know very little about turbos. and Superchargers??
And kits are relativly cheap but since i have no clue what i am buying what about the quailty of these parts.
??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T4...QQcmdZViewItem
Electric Supercharger.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ELECT...QQcmdZViewItem
Look under the forced induction section of the forum and you will find pretty much all you need to know.
damn soirry i've been really lazy damn 16hrs days.
damn am not around since i work 8 hour days plus the girl keeps me busy...but yeah good luck on that rebuild :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
hey anybody have a stock EFI Header there willing to sell cause i will not find it around here.
I'm gonna do the exhaust for the auto car. the current accord all 2.25 with a quiet muffler it's a daily driver plus theres no need for noise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
since you have a welder i have a pacesseter header that needs some welds patched up.
i rather keep that nice pacesetter for the good engine build. the one with the 5-speed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDRaptor
if you want it offer me something. it comes with a flex pipe.
