Project A20 and B20 Begins

Finally i can start work on my engines i have the second prototype inlet manifold for Webers or ITB's which is good enough to use on the engines to see what kind of performance i can get from a Weber setup on either, the 3rd one i'm looking at will have the angle of the engine for the inlet manifold put into the pipes or maybe at the inlet port flange side not sure which will be best yet theres pros and cons to whether the angle is at the carb/ITB end and at the inlet port end. Didn't seem to bother my ET1 engine too much.

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This made 200bhp with stock size valves and very shorth runners the angle was at the carb end as well on this one which has added benefit of better low throttle response as the butterfly it's tilting down towards the inlet port quicker.

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Made from stainless steel original was mild steel seemed heavier the original prototype and obviously went rusty quickly although it could be painted as it stay's cold from being on the inlet side.

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Different angles of the new Stainless steel version

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Water cut flanges which are really accurate fit the pipe to flange fit is pretty spot on not much matching and port work needed which is just as well being Stainless steel which is really hard to work on.

http://a851.ac-images.myspacecdn.com...84cda5390a.jpg

The vac pipe take off is underneath to keep it looking clean on top, the whole thing could be professionally polished and would look really sweet with a nice set of ITB's the bore spacing is exactly 90mm between each runner so slide ITB's or Roller ones could be used without a problem, maximum weber size would be DCOE 45's.

what did you do to the head to flow better?

looks nice

Your setup looks awesome. I see that you blocked off the injector hole on the flange. Looks very nice.

PS: I like pictures :) more the merrier.

damn...very shagadelic

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Originally Posted by smufguy

Your setup looks awesome. I see that you blocked off the injector hole on the flange. Looks very nice.
PS: I like pictures :) more the merrier.

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injector wholes? where do you see them? he is running webers.

Its so beautiful.... brings tears to my eyes... :hs:

Mouse pads make good head stands :)


I like the stainless one... if I had my way I'd stainless all the parts I could in the engine... just for the look not really careing about the added weights.

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Originally Posted by shepherd79

injector wholes? where do you see them? he is running webers.

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He was taking about the small humps at the top of the intake ports on the head, not actual holes for injectors. The flange has 4 semi circle pieces sticking up above each runner.

Yeah but that is supposed to be there, the humps are also on the stock carb manifold.

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Originally Posted by shepherd79

injector wholes? where do you see them? he is running webers.

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I am comparing the stock efi headflange to the one he got, i forgot how the carb manifolds look :( :( esp on the head flange

Hmmm Pretty!

Thinking about selling some manifolds?

They just copied the gasket i gave them, the injector plates didn't need to be there really as i've had them welded up but hey ho not to worry, he had two flanges cut so thinking what to do with the second one maybe try shorter runners or was thinking maybe making up a custom Plenum with a big bore TB now that could be interesting or actually some bike carbs yeah now were talking hmmm we'll see just want to get at least one of the cars back on the road over the next few months in time for some summer fun on the track!! Then second one as wuick as possible so that i can run round the drag and track with two of them out as Team Old school Honda thats been the goal for me for the last couple of years!!

Wow man those are some beautiful manifolds!
Thanks for the pics...

Can e-mail you the full res ones if you want?
It's come out pretty good, the original one i had made from steel looks awefull in comparison functional but not great and looked crap!! But this one is pretty good very nice shape so very functional and looks pretty too!!
Only one slight snag just went to line up the webers and the studs are couple of mm out so i'll have to get hime to weld them shut and re tap them again so yet more delay to project A20/B20!!! Well waited a year for this so a couple more weeks won't kill me just would have been nice to have it to play with while i'm off work with a driving ban!! Ho hum!!

so, do you have a spare manifold or two? i'd love to get my hands on one.

I have a spare prototype mild steel one can be used but looks pretty crap comapred to the SS steel one, i have a spare SS steel flange so is possible to get another one made reasonably quickly but the cost is quite high especially with shipping and U.K. pound doing so well against the dollar.

what would the mild steel one cost? i'm not concerned about looks. i'm really only wanting something to get my DCOEs mounted up. i can paint it up to make it look real nice.

since carot asked first, he has dibs.

i was told to always use mild steel for the flanges cuz the stainless will warp under the heat from the weld. no matter how tight you have it bolted down

Is that only for a header though? intake manifold is different.

that looks like immaculate conception.

Thanks, The flange isn't warped and even if it did you can allways have is skimmed flat again after, the bolts would squash it flat anyways as well. Can't wait to try it out don't know whether i should replace the pgmfi system on my B20A now with webers!!

i've always read that carbs have the potential to make more power than EFI. i think i'd consider the swap if you can live with a car that isn't as streetable.

well, our B20a don't have Vtec and they should handle Webers a lot better. I say stick them on and see what it does.

They won't make as much power as say ITB's but not far behind but still a lot lot better than stock EFI and better than most aftermarket plenum style manifolds, although i'm sure someone will probably disagree. Pretty easy to convert a PPGMFI car to Weber DCOE's just need to change the fuel pump, add carb regulator redo the throttle cable probably still be able to use the original one and thats it the igntion system is seperate on A20 and Early B20 so would run without the ECU present. They wouldn't be that bad to drive you just have to get use to not mashign the throttle straight away from standing still once you get used to it there very driveable, they are just gloriously noisy and can make your car smell of petrol a bit but hey you get use to that!!

Oh also had a major break today got of a ban for speeding thought i was going to get a 2-6 week suspension but racked a few points up instead and got a $1200 U.S. £600 U.K. fine was a bit steep and would have paid for a nice set of rods and pistons but hey no ban!! Thought i was a gonna when they told the judge i had a previous suspension 3 years ago but the old girl must of liked me ;0)
Not all good though blew a fuse in my Hifi power amp and found out some brazilian F*%k has been stealing money out my Visa card!! And i missed the film i wanted to watch tonight because of bad road accident and closed roads they say bad things come in 3 lets just hope so!!!

See stop speeding, I did after my 3rd ticket, actually my 3rd one was me caught on a speed camera but our most lovely citizens banned the speed cameras from our state so we don't have them any more... power to the people.

Anyways i didn't have to pay my 3rd ticket... I took that a some sign to stop while I was ahead.

<avid speed enthusiast without a single speeding ticket. I'm bad at parking, though, lol. just can't read the "flagler college students only" signs at my girlfriend's school.

I've read 2 weber repair manuals, and they both seem to say that i can trade off some power for drivability. have you ever tried to tune with drivability in mind? i know that when i finally do the swap, I'll be getting maybe 23-24 MPG when driving conservatively. I'm fine with that. what I'm not so happy with is not being able to basically jump in and go. i know warm ups will become part of my morning routines, and I'm fine with that. but what about hot restarts? what about idle quality? what about being able to hand the keys to someone that's never driven anything other than an EFI car and expecting them to be able to drive? these are all things I'm concerned about.

sorry for the threadjack.

the b18a came with dual carbs....so yeah i bet you can convert a b20 into carbed b20

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Originally Posted by Vanilla Sky

<avid speed enthusiast without a single speeding ticket. I'm bad at parking, though, lol. just can't read the "flagler college students only" signs at my girlfriend's school.
I've read 2 weber repair manuals, and they both seem to say that i can trade off some power for drivability. have you ever tried to tune with drivability in mind? i know that when i finally do the swap, I'll be getting maybe 23-24 MPG when driving conservatively. I'm fine with that. what I'm not so happy with is not being able to basically jump in and go. i know warm ups will become part of my morning routines, and I'm fine with that. but what about hot restarts? what about idle quality? what about being able to hand the keys to someone that's never driven anything other than an EFI car and expecting them to be able to drive? these are all things I'm concerned about.
sorry for the threadjack.

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Yes you can always build the carbs to be econmunists..

lol :)

Maybe hook up the stock air box hot air valve and snorkle and air bleed valve to whatever air box you create for the webers.

There not that bad, i did a 400 mile trip on just under 60 litres of fuel on the motorway would have got more but was stuck in traffic for about 100miles so couldn't cruise at the most ideal speed which ironically is about 80mph!!!

Idle is fine depends on cams and hot starting again is fine you just need to run for a few minutes when cold when it's warm will start first time. You don't need the manual chokes, and you don't need to worry about peopel driving unless they plane on burying the throttle at standstill then they'll just be sitting there looking silly for a few seconds untill all hell suddenly breaks loose then they'll be lighting up the wheels!!! There not that hard to drive if you drive sensibly and just normally there fine. Only other thing buy new much less grief!!! they aren't very reliable when they've done 50-60k miles springs and valves start sticking adn breaking but are easily and cheaply replaced.

the set i have is stripped for a full rebuild. i have everything i need to rebuild them, i just need to sit down and do it.

What size are they? DCOE 40's or 45's?

Do you have an idea of what setup to use inside them?

Also if your pulling them apart some good tips

1: replace the butterfly screws with countersunk ones you can get these from a model shop. Grind the ends flush at both sides

2: Get a small dremel and some needle files and remove all the casting flash on all the parts inside the webers.

3: Depending on how hardcore your going you can machine the chokes out to max size of just a smidge under 42mm you loose a lot of the choke so your carb body then becomes the choke, the choke is there purely to make it more aerodynamic over a machined edge thats inside the carb body.

4: Also get a nice set of spun ally bell mouthed trumpets and make sure they fit nicely inside and make sure there for 45's not 40's.

5: Don't forget to use the anti vibration mounts and make sure that they and the carbs are all matched nicely to each other.

6: Use a good qaulity air filter or air box and ram air intake is definately advantageous although at winter best remove or the carbs can ice up when 5 degrees C or less

they're 40s. i planned on staying pretty stock, but those tweaks are all things that i don't mind getting into since i have the carbs fully disassembled already.

40's chokes can be machined out quite a lot i think you can get them upto 38 maybe nearly 40mm in size with these A series bigger the better, best thing to do is to buy a 36mm choke and have it machined out to it's largest size to see how far you can go with it.

I still need to maintain drivability, low end torque, and as much fuel econ as I can. I don't really want to be feeding more air and fuel than I need to for now. When the car is less of a daily driver, then I'll probably source a pair of 45's. For now, I really would like to stay with smaller chokes.

Economy is controlled by your foot, if you don't have self control the last thing you want is a set of webers cause everytime you open up that throttle it makes such a glorious noise that all you'll want to do is keep it open and then bang goes your economy no matter what settings you choose so you might as well have the best settings you can and then have a big block of wood under the pedal!!! Why do you think Webers are so scary, undriveable and really bad fuel economy i think someone from the FI brigade has been trying to put you off and hugely exagerating how webers work. If your really that bothered get some Bike ITB's and run megasquirt you don't even need the ignition system just run the stock one.