gold top vs. black top b20's

ok so i found that the gold top B20A (85-87 JDM) has 160hp & the black top B20A (87-89 JDM) has 140-145hp

just wanna know what the major differences are, Forrest & I have found that both the gold tops & black tops have a EGR, so it cant be that

maybe the black top has a cat. and the gold top doesnt?

or the ECU's are different?

from what i know (with the A20A3's) the 86-87 & 88-89 intake manifolds were different (with the 88-89 being better than the 86-78)

maybe the same applies for the b20a but the other way around?

i want to be able to get those extra 15-20 horses back in my black top, so yeah...

all input appreciated :)

one is vacume (sp) advance the other is electrical i know that

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9140/p1010088kn2.jpg

Seriously though, either they had to meet some emission standards or they decided to measure it differently. Dunno how we would find that out :(

One thing though, the gold top B20A from the 2G lude for the european market is 137HP.

I thought you had the Gold top Overdosed?? It seems odd that they would make the newer version B20a with less horsepower it has to have more torque or something I would figure

nah, i have gold top *parts*, which is only the intake manifold, exhaust manifold, cams, throttle body, cam position sensor oh and the gold valve cover :P

im hoping that's all i would need to get those extra 15-20 horses back, but chances are it's not..

i remember a quote from Carotman saying something like "the black top had 160hp to start with, but has been tuned down to 140hp, but i believe it had 140hp to begin with"

i've been trying to find that post

Someone should update teh wikipedia wiki. I think I had advertised 160hp on there, long ago.

Strange.

yeah i thought the blacktop made more power since it was more advanced with the dual stage intake and better flowing exhaust like the a20a3

i just found out that my gold top parts dont have a EGR :o


see the diff.

black top:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s...r/f3da43d7.jpg

gold top (from a prelude):
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s...r/a9fbe282.jpg

I saw a gold top for the first time in a 3rd gen accord at the junkyard it was a SOHC and I was like wtf is this gold for.....oh it was also carbed...

yeah i always wanted one of those gold top valve covers when i had my a18, it was toneloc's car that made me want that =)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tuxdreamerx

I saw a gold top for the first time in a 3rd gen accord at the junkyard it was a SOHC and I was like wtf is this gold for.....oh it was also carbed...

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that is a BS engine....its just left over engines from the prelude....they mostly came in 86 accords

i find it hard to believe they went down in hp. from what i've read on the forum and gathered, the only major difference between the two is that the black top has electronic advance and the gold has vacuum and other things like that. however, since they do use the a20a3 intake, then the black top may be more tuned down from the factory than the gold top if the gold makes 160 hp on the old a20a3 intake and the black makes 160 (or less?) on the new a20a3 intake.

i remember seeing a pic from a brochure or something were it actually shows the 2 engines and some info about them (in Japanese of course) been trynna find it for a while now.. im just contemplating on wheather or not i should put the gold top intake & exhaust on since they dont have a EGR??

Gold tops came in 2G ludes as well and were only 137bhp when new although after 60k miles they seems to gain quite a few bhp. From what i've seen it's down to ECU, cams, and slightly lower CR ratio, maybe inlet manifold design, the European version also didn't have EGR or Cat so really should have been a lot more powerfull? 137bhp is a lot less than 160bhp!!

Some of you guys are confusing things a bit.

EURO B20A1 and B20A2 engines without cat are rated at 137hp but have about 145hp on the dyno. They have a 9.5:1 C/R ratio. (B20A8 with cat has a 9.4:1 C/R ratio and rated at 133hp)
All Euro B20A's are using a mechanical ignition advance and only fuel delivery is controlled by the ecu.

JDM B20A engines all have a 9.4:1 C/R ratio and are all with cat, and both run a different distributor and exhaust cam sensor than the Euro B20A's. Goldtop is rated at 160hp, blacktop is rated at 145hp.
Goldtop is running an ecu that is divided into ignition control and fuel control, seperated from eachother. Blacktop is running an ecu with fuel and ignition control combined into one unit.
Goldtop has 1 O2 sensor, egr (prelude or early goldtop might not have EGR?) and singlestage manifold. Blacktop has 2 O2 sensors in the exhaust manifold, egr and a dual stage intake manifold.

As far as cams I dont know if theres any difference between gold and blacktop I havent bothered to compare them, but I can say that swapping JDM B20A goldtop cams into a Euro B20A makes no difference, and I couldnt tell any visible differences between them either. I forgot to measure the lift though, but again no visible diff.

i have two B20A2, gold cover and black cover, and both are same, i think only the serial nº is diferent.

Yes, B20A2 was made with both gold (1987) and black (1988-1989) valve cover. Apart from the valve cover they are the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatdane

Some of you guys are confusing things a bit.
EURO B20A1 and B20A2 engines without cat are rated at 137hp but have about 145hp on the dyno. They have a 9.5:1 C/R ratio. (B20A8 with cat has a 9.4:1 C/R ratio and rated at 133hp)
All Euro B20A's are using a mechanical ignition advance and only fuel delivery is controlled by the ecu.
JDM B20A engines all have a 9.4:1 C/R ratio and are all with cat, and both run a different distributor and exhaust cam sensor than the Euro B20A's. Goldtop is rated at 160hp, blacktop is rated at 145hp.
Goldtop is running an ecu that is divided into ignition control and fuel control, seperated from eachother. Blacktop is running an ecu with fuel and ignition control combined into one unit.
Goldtop has 1 O2 sensor, egr (prelude or early goldtop might not have EGR?) and singlestage manifold. Blacktop has 2 O2 sensors in the exhaust manifold, egr and a dual stage intake manifold.
As far as cams I dont know if theres any difference between gold and blacktop I havent bothered to compare them, but I can say that swapping JDM B20A goldtop cams into a Euro B20A makes no difference, and I couldnt tell any visible differences between them either. I forgot to measure the lift though, but again no visible diff.

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thank you :wave:

Hmm, so even though the older JDM gold top engine is rated higher, is there anything from a black top JDM engine that I could install to give more power to my B20A1?

Stick some Hayabusa ITB's on with an aftermarket ECU that will make you go faster and then some cams from Cat Cams, biggest mod get rid of crappy 1.75" exhaust and put 2.25 inch all the way from cast manifold back or preferably custom made header or re cut 3rd Gen lude header.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve_Si

Hmm, so even though the older JDM gold top engine is rated higher, is there anything from a black top JDM engine that I could install to give more power to my B20A1?

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Your engine is a B20A, regardless if it's a gold or blacktop because it's JDM. B20A1/2/8 only applies to the Euro market.

The only thing the blacktop has is the intake manifold but it's not worth it bothering to swap it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatdane

Some of you guys are confusing things a bit.
EURO B20A1 and B20A2 engines without cat are rated at 137hp but have about 145hp on the dyno. They have a 9.5:1 C/R ratio. (B20A8 with cat has a 9.4:1 C/R ratio and rated at 133hp)
All Euro B20A's are using a mechanical ignition advance and only fuel delivery is controlled by the ecu.
JDM B20A engines all have a 9.4:1 C/R ratio and are all with cat, and both run a different distributor and exhaust cam sensor than the Euro B20A's. Goldtop is rated at 160hp, blacktop is rated at 145hp.
Goldtop is running an ecu that is divided into ignition control and fuel control, seperated from eachother. Blacktop is running an ecu with fuel and ignition control combined into one unit.
Goldtop has 1 O2 sensor, egr (prelude or early goldtop might not have EGR?) and singlestage manifold. Blacktop has 2 O2 sensors in the exhaust manifold, egr and a dual stage intake manifold.
As far as cams I dont know if theres any difference between gold and blacktop I havent bothered to compare them, but I can say that swapping JDM B20A goldtop cams into a Euro B20A makes no difference, and I couldnt tell any visible differences between them either. I forgot to measure the lift though, but again no visible diff.

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so then, what's the ecu code for the two? ph3 is the blacktop ecu, right? and would it be any benefit to use the gold top ecu with the black top engine?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatdane

Some of you guys are confusing things a bit.
EURO B20A1 and B20A2 engines without cat are rated at 137hp but have about 145hp on the dyno. They have a 9.5:1 C/R ratio. (B20A8 with cat has a 9.4:1 C/R ratio and rated at 133hp)
All Euro B20A's are using a mechanical ignition advance and only fuel delivery is controlled by the ecu.
JDM B20A engines all have a 9.4:1 C/R ratio and are all with cat, and both run a different distributor and exhaust cam sensor than the Euro B20A's. Goldtop is rated at 160hp, blacktop is rated at 145hp.
Goldtop is running an ecu that is divided into ignition control and fuel control, seperated from eachother. Blacktop is running an ecu with fuel and ignition control combined into one unit.
Goldtop has 1 O2 sensor, egr (prelude or early goldtop might not have EGR?) and singlestage manifold. Blacktop has 2 O2 sensors in the exhaust manifold, egr and a dual stage intake manifold.
As far as cams I dont know if theres any difference between gold and blacktop I havent bothered to compare them, but I can say that swapping JDM B20A goldtop cams into a Euro B20A makes no difference, and I couldnt tell any visible differences between them either. I forgot to measure the lift though, but again no visible diff.

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I might add that the JDM blacktop has 1 O2 sensor also.

I have a lude GoldTop B20A here and it doesn't have an EGR port.

I think I compared part numbers some time ago and they were all the same between the goldtop and blacktop.

I guess the difference is just the way they measured the engine output.

Yes youre right about the O2 sensor being just a single one on the blacktop too. Was thinking of the A20A3 there for a minute.

huh, am i lost or what. i know your edm engines have less hp but did i hear someone say that the jdm gold top b20a has 160hp and the jdm black top has 145hp?? as far as im concerned all b20as that came in jdm accords are both 160hp. only diffrence between the blacktop and goldtop i found is the intake manifold.

2 of my 3 gold top b20a engines have no EGR whatsoever

the blacktop i have got for snoopyloopy has no egr either

explain..
i have a stack of ph3 accord b20a ecus and a pj5 jdm b20a 2g lude ecu
all ecus apart from the blacktops one are the same. and the one ecu from the car with egr has to go with another car with egr. thats random

hi, intake maifold are same, i´ve both. i´m sure that the serial nº and colour is only the diference

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wohdog

huh, am i lost or what. i know your edm engines have less hp but did i hear someone say that the jdm gold top b20a has 160hp and the jdm black top has 145hp?? as far as im concerned all b20as that came in jdm accords are both 160hp. only diffrence between the blacktop and goldtop i found is the intake manifold.
2 of my 3 gold top b20a engines have no EGR whatsoever
the blacktop i have got for snoopyloopy has no egr either
explain..
i have a stack of ph3 accord b20a ecus and a pj5 jdm b20a 2g lude ecu
all ecus apart from the blacktops one are the same. and the one ecu from the car with egr has to go with another car with egr. thats random

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shit, no egr. does the b20a5 has an egr? bc i'm gonna try to get my b20a legal as a prelude motor...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snoopyloopy

shit, no egr. does the b20a5 has an egr? bc i'm gonna try to get my b20a legal as a prelude motor...

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The B20a5 and B21a have egr and it wont be that hard the make all legal.

MY BAD snoopy it does have EGR. i musta been looking at the blacktop zc in my shed instead of your b20a woops but yeah... pics
http://www.wohdog.sytes.net/board/fo...3407201323.JPG
http://www.wohdog.sytes.net/board/fo...4407201346.JPG
http://www.wohdog.sytes.net/board/fo...5407201344.JPG

i woulda got better fotos but being on home detention and the sheds out of my boundary so i snapped them in a hurry as to get back b4 the machine realised i was gone lol.

and the b20a5 poolude manifold dont even bolt to the b20a aue..well the jdm one doesnt anyway..tryed that lol

whys the cambelt taken off?

because i took it off to check camshaft differences between auto and manual cams but i never got around to it. so it still remains a mystery whether the cams are the same or different...

any more info on this or is it deiceded that the black top is 145hp and the gold is 160 with the only difference being the ecu?

so the ph3 I have for my goldtop may not work? I'm about to throw the thing over a clif, and this will be my braking poin im sure.

Hmm It should work. I have the Pk2 ecu for my B20a from the 88-91 preludes

both gold & black top use PH3 ECU's, theres just a difference between the ones from gold tops & black tops as told in thegreatdanes post (i think)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wohdog

any more info on this or is it deiceded that the black top is 145hp and the gold is 160 with the only difference being the ecu?

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The only difference is the SAE measurements that changed in 1988. The Engines are the same internaly and externaly except that the black top has a dual runner intake, a better ECU and EGR. In theory it would make more power. It makes no sense that the blacktop makes 15 hp less.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wohdog

MY BAD snoopy it does have EGR. i musta been looking at the blacktop zc in my shed instead of your b20a woops but yeah... pics
http://www.wohdog.sytes.net/board/fo...3407201323.JPG
http://www.wohdog.sytes.net/board/fo...4407201346.JPG
http://www.wohdog.sytes.net/board/fo...5407201344.JPG

i woulda got better fotos but being on home detention and the sheds out of my boundary so i snapped them in a hurry as to get back b4 the machine realised i was gone lol.

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oh shoot, i never even saw these pix. looks good, should be nice candidate for my development plans. :)

therefore black top b20 is for the sex :P

well, we've all seen the red top b20 and what it's capable of...

the blacktop b20a has a different head to the gold top b20a.
and im certain i could notice less power by using blacktop cams in a gold top. but nowhere in the accord manuals does it say that theres 2 different b20a engines. Might have to get a JDM prelude 2.0Si manyal for the B20A specs cause the manual i have is for a 1989 blacktop b20a

So you think that the extra 20hp that the goldtop has is because of the head? Maybe I can compare the teo when the other one gets here

well the castings between the blacktop and gold top heads are different. Dont know why. Block appears to be the same.

Do you have any example of this? They use the same valves so I expect the head ports to be the same too.

Scrapped the blacktop head that had the bent valves without taking a damn photo. Maybe next time.

I have a gold top head and next month when i pull out my black top i will pull the head off of it and put them side by side and take some pic's and post them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carotman

The only difference is the SAE measurements that changed in 1988. The Engines are the same internaly and externaly except that the black top has a dual runner intake, a better ECU and EGR. In theory it would make more power. It makes no sense that the blacktop makes 15 hp less.

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I agree with what you're saying, but wouldn't the A20A3 also see a corresponding drop in output as well, not a 12 hp increase? Or was it a jurisdictional change?

The only difference i can see between the gold and black top is the black top has flat top pistons and the gold top has dish pistons.

Has anybody actually had a dyno done on their b20a gold or black top?
I was trying to find a thread here where somebody mentioned Japanese gas was high in octane so that is why they say 160 hp, it was an arguable statement at best. The basis of that argument would be saying you could gain 30+ hp by using 103 and tuning to 103... hrmmm
So is it really 160 hp?

i dynoed mine and ran 105 hp @ the whels at 5500 rpm and it stayedd that til redline
it has 285,000km on the clock tho
mine you the k&n pod ,headers and 2.25 inch exhaust would have helped a bit.
but the fact it NEEDED a service,plugs, fuel filter and alowing the ecu some time to recalibrate to the exhaust wouldnt have
i fin the exhaust,drove cross the workshop to the dyno and ran her up.
should have driven t round for a while first

shit, only 105whp.. that's about 125hp at the engine. Not impressive. And that's a blacktop, right?

Until I see proof otherwise I dont believe that any JDM gold or blacktop has ever made 160hp stock. I'm even starting to think that the edm B20A1/2's are running stronger than the JDM ones. But 125hp seems a bit too discrete for a B20a.

I hope to dyno a stock b20a sometime but with obd1+crome tuning to see how much it's actually capable of putting out stock.

hauntd was that your B20A?

i bet your b20a5 prelude extractors took away 25 of your whp
i have a good ish engine currently that has low kms minus the high KMs head on it wishi could have it dynoed in its stock form as it is now

i beat a b16a integra by a car length back in the day with a stock exhaust and cai. me gf and subs in the car. that was with a stock as a rock looked after b20a that has 168000kms from a parts car that i had that was rusted out. that engine was fast. all the ones i have had since are slower i recon

see this is it with my b18 gearbox http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=a4xw1t4mGig looks fast one i started nailing it after pulling out of the intersection slowly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatdane

shit, only 105whp.. that's about 125hp at the engine. Not impressive. And that's a blacktop, right?

Until I see proof otherwise I dont believe that any JDM gold or blacktop has ever made 160hp stock. I'm even starting to think that the edm B20A1/2's are running stronger than the JDM ones. But 125hp seems a bit too discrete for a B20a.

I hope to dyno a stock b20a sometime but with obd1+crome tuning to see how much it's actually capable of putting out stock.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by roodoo2

hauntd was that your B20A?

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yeah that is my black top
and yes i was depressed
mind you i held off full throttle out of sympathy for an old motor in needof servicing and wasnt sure of the cond of cam belt
am not sure if something was wrong as it stopped as soon as i stepped on the clutch at the end of the run.
the thing wouldnt start on its own and needed a jump start
would a low voltage cause hp loss due to ecu and sensors not getting 13.7 volts?
the batt was completely fucked
dropped to 4 volts for cranking test

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatdane

shit, only 105whp.. that's about 125hp at the engine. Not impressive. And that's a blacktop, right?

Until I see proof otherwise I dont believe that any JDM gold or blacktop has ever made 160hp stock. I'm even starting to think that the edm B20A1/2's are running stronger than the JDM ones. But 125hp seems a bit too discrete for a B20a.

I hope to dyno a stock b20a sometime but with obd1+crome tuning to see how much it's actually capable of putting out stock.

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Yup, I'm sure they made less too. No wonder Honda changed the power output on the blacktops.

Mine did 145 at the wheels on a stock exhaust (1.5inch) and stock ECU :D

I really need a better exhaust!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carotman

Yup, I'm sure they made less too. No wonder Honda changed the power output on the blacktops.

Mine did 145 at the wheels on a stock exhaust (1.5inch) and stock ECU :D

I really need a better exhaust!

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Yea and some proper engine management! :) hehe are you still using a stock exhaust, well it's effective if you want to reduce noise I guess but other than that :)
Btw are you running stock fuel pressure or did you turn that up a bit to compensate for the stock ecu?

Nope, I'm running the stock management (PH3 ROM) with stock fuel pressure.
The sparkplugs do not seem to get too hot so it's not running that lean I guess. This is probably because I'm using the stock exhaust and it can't get all the gasses out at higher RPM.

I really need to take care of that!

thats pretty good power!
even tho mines a jdm import, i have been told that the ones with the open haedlights were destined for the edm which were detuned a bit werent they?
if not,what a downer
the 285,000 km wont help to much
must bring a comp tester home and check the motor out.
am planning on doing another dyno run before i build the next motor
so i might give it the full tune up and service and see how she fairs then
duz anyone know if f22b rods fit the b20a?
and if they are stronger
have one at work with bent valves i mite scavenge off if things fit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carotman

Nope, I'm running the stock management (PH3 ROM) with stock fuel pressure.
The sparkplugs do not seem to get too hot so it's not running that lean I guess. This is probably because I'm using the stock exhaust and it can't get all the gasses out at higher RPM.

I really need to take care of that!

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not running lean and running the most power effective A/F ratio are 2 very different scenarios https://www.3geez.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
You could try hooking a wideband on it to see where it's at. It should be at around 13:1 a/f at WOT. There's a lot of power to get between 14.7:1 and 13:1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hauntd ca3

thats pretty good power!
even tho mines a jdm import, i have been told that the ones with the open haedlights were destined for the edm which were detuned a bit werent they?
if not,what a downer
the 285,000 km wont help to much
must bring a comp tester home and check the motor out.
am planning on doing another dyno run before i build the next motor
so i might give it the full tune up and service and see how she fairs then
duz anyone know if f22b rods fit the b20a?
and if they are stronger
have one at work with bent valves i mite scavenge off if things fit

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yes the edm ones were listed at 137hp (ex. B20A8) but makes ~145hp on the dyno.

If those rods are same as H23 rods they should fit.

Wikipedia's got B20A1 at 137 hp, A2 at 142 hp and A8 at 133 hp.

someone give me $6000 so i can dyno my car!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A18A

someone give me $6000 so i can dyno my car!!

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come over here they dyno cars for like 80 bucks an hr...or just send me your engine and il dyno it for you

thnk he means 6k to install and tune an after market ecu for his itbs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naf's Asdf

Wikipedia's got B20A1 at 137 hp, A2 at 142 hp and A8 at 133 hp.

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the wikipedia is not correct then.

[QUOTE=thegreatdane;874406]yes the edm ones were listed at 137hp (ex. B20A8) but makes ~145hp on the dyno.

well if they make 145 at the flywheel 115/120 at the wheels would be bout right for a new motor then right?
even tho i have the headers and full exhaust 105hp doesnt seem to far off for a motor with 285k on the clock
mind you the fact that the dyno was a fiftyyear old water brake that is always breaking down
wouldnt help to much

well at least it is good to know a B20A will make it to 285KK, that is a lot more than I see D15, B16 going. (standing aside from flames)
and a lot more than I see B20A5's making it, but then I have not been looking too hard either.

just noticed today that the engine serial number is just b20a and the the actual serial number under it.
thort they were meant to have the model number after the b20a part
eg b20a2 or b20a8
what does this mean?

nah all jdm models are just b20a, its the europeans that got the b20a1/2/8s

ah ha!
that clears that up
cheers dude

i pulled a gold valve cover off of an accord ant the jy. dont tell me i missed a huge find...

No, some A20A (BS1) had a gold valve cover.

heres what everyone been looking for. I foudn it im the man, the answer to all goldtop and blacktop questions::::

http://imagehost.wohdog.sytes.net/Up...49blacktop.JPG

as opposed to the gold top's....

http://imagehost.wohdog.sytes.net/Up...839goldtop.JPG

mmhmmm

my car gets more than 12.4km/l woot

Mine will when i replace the faileld goldtop with the blaxcktop

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AccordB20A

heres what everyone been looking for. I foudn it im the man, the answer to all goldtop and blacktop questions::::

http://imagehost.wohdog.sytes.net/Up...49blacktop.JPG

as opposed to the gold top's....

http://imagehost.wohdog.sytes.net/Up...839goldtop.JPG

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The blacktop has a goldtop intake manifold.

what the ass i just noticed that.. wonder why that is?? i've never seen a black top with a gold top intake before unless it was changed or in that pic

either way honda should have gave these cars fatter tyres from stock (205's :thumbup:) cause i can never get traction at any speed when i floor it through 1st & 2nd. unless it's cause my wheel alignment is so piss poor. or i'm just a shitty driver :D

its your wheel alignment i keep tellsing you

and i didn't even notice that it has a gold top intake on it. wonder what happened there?