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I don't even know where to start for searching this, so I might as well make an interesting post.
My A20A1 likes to rev no more than 6200-6300 RPM's. To my understanding, the vavle springs are the ones who complain.
Starting with a 2nd gen Prelude spring swap, how can I get more rev out of an A20??
Get a crank with a shorter stroke. Without that, the a20 will never be a rev happy motor. The a20 is not a "performance engine". Its long stroke and lousy rod/stroke ratio is its achilles heel, so to speak. The engine's lousy VE at hight rpm can be improved with cyl head/ intake/exhaust modifications and a larger cam, and stiffer valvesprings to accomodate higher rpm, but the shortblock will still have lousy geometry. It can be made to not disintegrate, with eagle ls length rods, but in my opinion the best way is to just not rev it much past the stock fuel cut (6.6k?) and use forced induction to make the power out of the increased torque instead of rpm.
excellent ^^^^^ explanation
Quote:
Originally Posted by roodoo2
Agreed^^!!
Thanks Accordtheory for that post. That helps quite a bit.
yeah ...you need better springs and a nice cam...my motor hits lock up at around 5800 RPM...all you really need is an adjustable cam gear and advance the motor alot
Lock up?? Is that peak HP?? I race shift at about 5700 and no more, cuz that is where the powerband falls. I want to be able to hit at least 7g sometime in it's life.
well why did the a20a2 i have have power to 7000rpm and rev right around to 8 lol
Good Question^^^ And I would love a reply.
Are the A20A2's JDM?
^^ basically outside the states only I think. Since they have less emissions controls. Damn California for keeping us from getting good engines.
Better than Japan... I'm glad I live in Oregon.Quote:
Originally Posted by turabaka
And Damn California for giving me a ticket for going 80 in a 65 at 1:20 in the morning!
here is my power band before the tune....now my car is fully tuned but i dont have a graph
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6..._1947Small.jpg
That is with a cam, cam gear, and vavle springs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Man
no that was just with cold air intake, headers, exhaust, obd1 swap with a base map of the pr4,
now i have a cam and cam gear...i still need to advance it a bit to get more low end torque.
here is a better scan of my first dyno run with just cold air intake and exhuast.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...yhondadyno.jpg
Damn, I still have hope for my A20! What is your 0-60 roughly?? I can usually pull off 8-10 seconds consecutively.
my b20a puts out twice that and its stock with a pod filter and koni shocks :P
Messy why is Your engine dont give out more than 110HP? Is it Carb or? My dos 125@166Quote:
Originally Posted by MessyHonda
no shit??Quote:
Originally Posted by AccordB20A
that is something to look forward too!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisimo
the graphs show power that reaches the wheels...not at the engine.
so my car made 112whp so to the crank im making 128hp to the crank. right now i think im making like 130hp to the crank
nah just playin wit messy. one day it will :PQuote:
Originally Posted by roodoo2
130hp from the engine isnt too bad for the old a20a engine.
I hope I can reach the 150 mark by the time I want to upgrade to something better.
I got the idea when I saw a Type R, 0-60. That thing would go to 9g, shift down to 7g and power back up to 9g, then shift again... Sweet...
you dont wanna spin this engine much beyond the stock rev limiter, you start running into valve float at 7250-7400 rpm, plus with such a long stroke its hard on the bearings and you may end up stretching rod bolts (spun rod bearings) even on my fully built engine, 7200rpm is plenty
I beg to differ, rod ratio isn't far off the same as a B18C engine and they like to rev high, and all my engines have all been very rev happy and pickup really quick especially with lightened flywheel. I've had 8000rpm engines before on A18 head and A20 block with just 285 degree cam and have had ET1 engine that revved to 7500 with just 272 degree cam, hell my stock ET engine in my red lude with twin Kei Hein's revs to 7rpm without protest but the power does drop a little after 6.5krpm due to the stock cam.
With the research i've done i think that it's still possible to build an A20/ET1 which is able to rev happily to 9000rpm but you would need aftermarket rods and pistons to stop it from blowing up anything over 7k rpm you'll need at least aftermarket rods and might as well get pistons as well if your going to that trouble. With an engine that likes to rev you need to make sure you have the best exhaust and intake system you can get this is what ultimately restricts the flow not the rod ratio (yes to a certain extent at much higher revs). Don't forget some A20 use very restictive exhaust manifold 4-1 design the 2G ludes had nice 4-2-1 design, headwork/inlet manifold flopwing also really helps with extra revs typically i've seen powebands increase from 500-1000rpm from properly done headwork/manifolds (depends on the head and number of valves).
The A20 i'm building will hopefully be able to turn at least 8.5k-9k rpms and stay together as for power should be seeing around 220-230bhp maybe bit more if i can get the CR ratio high enough. But we all know that this isn't coming cheap with welding done to the head, custom larger valves etc, maybe even titanium rods and wrist pins for the extra rpms.
Deffinantly looking forward to it.
On a side note, will the 2g Prelude ewxaust manifolds fit right up to an A20? I just had a look at my manifold with the heat shield off of it, and that is one ugly header.
^^ I doubt that it will. Why don't you just buy a pacesetter or get one custom made?
Cuz I got no job and about $450 worth a tickets in front of me.
mmm. That sucks ass. I'm in the same boat. Without the tickets though. I can't wait till this summer when I can get a programming internship. $15 an hour. :)
header if it's the 4-1 type then yes even the stock 2G lude header and downpipe will make a difference, especially if you open up the ports and polish the inside a little i've made 200bhp with this setup before.
If I can find a 2g lude at a junk yard, should I also check to see if it's a B20?
no the mounts are different it wont bolt up rightQuote:
Originally Posted by Bass Man
2g ludes dont have b20s in teh usa
the only thing in the us that had a b20 was a crv and they wont mount up at allQuote:
Originally Posted by AccordB20A
I don't plan on doing a B20 in the next 10 years, but I was just checking for follow members...
Is it an A20, then?? I thought they were 20Si's, but didn't know how the exhaust manifold bolted up.
wrong. preludes have them too...Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettogeddy
To be honest the time and effort you'll put into finding a 2G lude and also the cost of having the downpipe welded up to your system or a new one fitted might be just cheaper and less agro to get the uncoated Pacesetter header.
rjudgey, you're always talking about how much power you made with this or that setup. I'm curious to know how you measured it, what type of dyno, do you have any of the graphs?
Sooo......
Prelude Exhaust manifold = don't work.
Prelude Downpipe = Modified fit??
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjudgey
yeah the pacesetter is not a bad system...even if it does not improve flow its still alot lighter than the cast iron manifold.
Accord theory i have old dynos but the graphs they were printed on don't make a whole lot of sense to me or anyone else and they don't show any torque figures, also they cost a F load to do $80 a time, plus i don't know how accurately it is calibrated. So I tend to go more on real performance terms like how fast the car is, so go to drag sessions which cost only $40 for a whole day to tune and tinker with the engine and as it has run 14.5 second 1/4 mile time with stock road tyres with 195/50/15 tyres no LSD, not to mention everyone has seen vids of how quick the car excellerated and how it max's out the speedo which on U.K. car goes to 145mph and the revs it was pulling i'd say i know what the heck i'm talking about. None of the vids have the car running on NOS or anything similar don't like NOS just twin Weber 45's and a lot of DIY tinkering.
If i didn't have such a fast car do you really think i would have bothered with having $3k worth of custom 4 pot calipers and 300mm 2 piece disks made up to stop the car with, just some SI calipers and disks would have done if it were so slow!!!!
Accordtheory don't forget i may have only been around for 4 years but i've been modding these engines for over 10 years now and i personally have tested and destroyed more than you can ever imagine, so i know exactly what works and what doesn't, i also have every type of these engines from ET, ET1, A18, A20A1, A20A4, and even a vast collection of B20A's and box's so i know these engines very well, i've tried and tested numerous diffferent ideas on headwork for them not to mention got to the great expense of having custom bronze guides made, custom big valve convsersions, custom welding of the ports to make the shape better. The amount of money i've spent developing these engines is more than what a brand new S2000 would cost and not far off the cost of a minty 2nd hand NSX hell to be honest sometimes i just wished i saved all my money and got a Ferrari 308 GTS with Quad carbs and Fibre glass shell.
BTW i also run and tune a new BMW Msport Dieisel 2.0l which has about 215bhp and 310lbft torque i do happen to have an accurate dyno sheet of that last time it was on the rollers when it was producing just 209bhp and 300lbft or torque and was running 1.4 mile times of 14.9 seconds on road tyres with 235/45/17 size although being RWD traction of the line is much better but the car weighs 1495kg so thats quite a bit heavier than the lude.
So as every one knows i'm a real petrol nutcase having now 4 ludes 2 B20A, 1 A20, 1 ET engine ones as well as my Derv BMW. Even my stock ET lude which most people here has seen which is mint has been tweekd a little thats now running 16.3s 1/4 mile time with just a custom exhaust on it and thats just a 1.8l engine!!!
you might be able to give me an expected hp and torque number if you spent so much time on the b20a
back to subject on how high you can revs
the max safe piston sped is the one to work on.
from research 25 meters per second seems to be the limit
f1 cars seem to be round 23 to 24 mps.
if you know your stroke you can suss it with easy math
The 4-2-1 ex. manifolds came on 2g Preludes and '88-'89 fuel injected Accords. All '86-'87 Accords and '88='89 carbed Accords had 4-1 manifolds. Obviously the 4-1 and 4-2-1 down pipes are not compatible, but downpipes of the same type are probably compatible even if they are on different vehicles. But your exhaust is probably all welded together so you would have to have the new manifold/down pipe welded in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Man
C|
I can weld it myself, I just needed confirmation on the capatibility...
Now you've opened up another question!
What is better: Prelude manifold or LXI manifold?!
Also!! Is there a flexpipe on the LXI Downpipe?? I've seen many 2-1 Downpipes and they look 3 foot long!
Most likely they are the same, if you can weld why not try making your own header?? Just need to send of the manifold gasket to a engineering company that can copy it and make you a stainless flange and then just weld away. Stick to roughly the same Pacesetter design but maybe make the primaries a bit longer and the secondaries a bit longer and also use a felxi joint instead of ball joint, use a 2.25" collector not 2" though and maybe have the top of the manifold more rounded with bigger smoother bends down to the 2-1 section.
Just a thought anyways, if not than just go with the lude or later 3g accord cast manifold port and polish it out inside and then make your downpipe to fit onto your current system. A Mandrel bent 2.25" system on this setup should be capable of supporting upto 200bhp bit less if you have to run a cat about 190bhp roughly all depends what else you do, if your planning a full blown race engine setup then you'll definately have to invest in making up a tubular manifold for more power.
I can weld with the best of 'em; I just don't have anyway to bend the tubing.
All I am after is a 16 second A20 for under $300...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Man
lol the best way to get to 16 secs is to put some super low profile tires and lots of weight reduction....strip the interior
I have 195/60/14s that are pretty dang wide, but I am thinking about getting different wheels.
Are you saying 16's are easy to get in an Accord?!
not so hard... i use to run 16s with jus intake, 2" exhaust, pacesetter header, and b16 intake mani.. also running really really rich, ran like shit, not tuned at all....Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Man
Good to know!
Shouldn't be too hard i'm getting 16.3 second 1/4 mile from my stock 2G lude EX with A18 1.8litre engine, only thing i've changed is fuel pump, FPR, little bit of tinkering on carb, and new exhaust and downpipe custom made by race exhaust specialist i know with all mandrel bent with 2" pipe and sports silencers (Type R tips to keep it honda looking!!). Running 195/60/14 using stock honda wheels as they are so much lighter than aftermarket i'd suggest the same for you, or another option would be some Rota wheels with 205/50/15 tyres would give you more grip.
If you just went with modding your intake with CAI, TB mods (knife edging intake, countersunk screws etc.), polishing inside of intake manifold and matching to head, some basic head work with race spec seats cut and matching valve heads, tiny bit of port work around exhaust valves, bit of work around combustion chambers, matched new injectors, FPR, F22 Map sensor mod, Header and exhaust, good plugs and leads, new dizzy and rotor should see you upto a good solid 140bhp with a mild cam maybe as much as 150bhp especially if you can ditch the CAT.
You know you can get pre-bent tubing right? I'm not talking about the crap you get at Autodrone either, I mean real mandrel bent tubing specifically for making headers and such. Summit Racing has it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Man
C|
^^ ebay dude. That's the way to go. I bought enough 2.25 stainless bends and straight pieces to make my custom exhaust for less money than it would have cost me to buy mild steel from summit.
Hmm... I think I will just buy a header and downpipe. How wil this help where the RPM's stop??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Man
what do you mean?....our engines only rev to like 7k rpm before they start loosing power.
Right... I want to have power left at 7K as mine falls on it's face at 5300...
well I noticed that a 2.25 mandrel bent exhaust helps. My car doesn't seem to really lose power until around 6k or a little further. I tend to shift before then cause I'm afraid of destroying a 20 year old motor. lol. I've also noticed with the weber on it that it's really rev happy. I'll gun it flat out, the tach just wraps itself out. I've had it hit 6 or 6.5k without even blinking. And it was still pulling hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Man
headers help a bit....my top end smooth out when i installed my headers.
Sweet... sounds like something to save for...
a wild ass cam will help that :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bass Man
Stock engines aren't capable of revving that hi they will go to 7k but younot getting much power and you'll only rev that high in first 3 gears. More often than not it's quicker to shift earlier and use the torque curve to accelerate quicker than ringing the last 1000rpm out the poor engine before changing!!!
If you want an engine that peaks at 7000rpm you need to have headwork, headers, camshaft, and exhaust your not going to get power that high with just headers and exhaust not in all gears anyways. Best test is if you can pull cleanly in 4th gear to 7000rpm at a reasonable rate then you have a good engine that is putting down good numbers but you'll be shelling out alot to be able to do this. And for longevity of the block you really need rods and forged pistons for continual use at 7-7500rpm or the stock rods will break after 20-30k miles worth of use.
o also get a new compute that has been chiped o and if jesse still has the map sensors get one from him and i could tell a diffrence in throttle response
Hell of a responce! Thanks rjudgey!Quote:
Originally Posted by rjudgey
I don't intend on going to 7k regularly. I just want to be able to have steady power to 7k, or even 6.5k for that matter.
Can I send any cam in to have mild or wild re-grinds done, or the bigger the cam goes in, the bigger the cam come back? I think with the stock carb, the 89 LXI cam with the intake springs would be about as much as I would want for the top end without taking the head off.
If i were you i'd get some Bike carbs on there or even think about a A18 head swap and retro fit two largish bike carns=bs onto it, or alternatively get a weber conversion done, only way your going to get there stock carb is POS. Cam wise you don't need to go crazy anything between 260-270 degrees will do go with Colt or Delta i think are companies that do a half decent job, i think web cams do a couple of choices which maybe better, To be honest the heads on A20 don't need a lot of work so taking it off to do work to it isn't a major issue it just helps it later on having the headwork done.
If i were you i'd look at header, system, then look into maybe putting your welding skills to use and making up an inlet manifold for some large bike carbs combined with mild cam would esily get you upto 160bhp and pull easily to 7000rpm. Most difficult part is finding a Bike carb tuner to tune the carbs for your car but shouldn't be that hard.
My dad is big into Harleys, so he might be able to help me if I go that way... How much work is involved on the intake manifold??
There's a reason why vtec was invented.. To the o.p, keep learning. rjudgey, estimating dyno results from quater mile times/trap speeds..? Not second guessing you exactly, just want to see a couple dyno plots. You're talking about power in the area of a fairly heavily modified b20 vtec or gsr out of an a20, so forgive my curiosity/skepticism.
I wish I could have V-tec... I really wish....
Go here
http://www.myspace.com/rjudgey
Have a look at the pics and the vids section reason why i do 1.4 miles testing (santapod has state of the art timing systems as well best in world) is because it's real world what does a dyno tell you diddly squat your not getting realistic drag factors and air resistance being taken into account all it does is roughly work out your bhp as you have to take into account transmission loss from gearbox and wheels and tyres and it varies from dyno to dyno as they are all out of calibration or setup differently it's all a load of bullshit the only one in my area thats 100% accurate is an engine out job or one that bolts onto the hubs but needs half a day setting it up and calibrating and quite frankly i'm not wasting $300 just to tell me i have a quick car when i can spend $30 on the drag strip and prove it for real. Contrary to your belief 1/4 is very accurate why of wokring out power adn how fast your car is, with accurate weight and air resistance figures you can just as precisely if not more accurately work out true whp better than most dynos.
So please stop giving me grief you name one person who has put my ideas into practice from here and preludepower who has not had a benefit and then giving me bad feedback!! Well i'll tell you not one and trust me i've helped a lot of old school 3g;s and 2nd gen lude owners out and they are all appreciative of my help and advice, i've had so many people ask me to do heads and engines for them my emails are constantly filling up all the time, i've even had people visit me from Canada to say thanks for my help. So if you wnat to know how to make a fast 3G or 2nd gen lude with either an ET engine or an A or B20A series then i suggest you start listening to what i have to say more. Or i could just keep quiet and keep all my ideas to myself but as i'm not like that i don't everytime i come up with a cracking new idea to get more power i share it with you guy's free of charge now i don't remember Sean being quite so forth coming now who else do you know who came up with the idea of converting your exhaust valves into big arse inlet valves for a huge increase in flow on the heads hmmm me who gave great detail and in depth guide on how to do it repeatedly hmmm me. Now i know of a few people who have done this and none have had any issues and only reported it as successfull. Now i'm not one to build engines and spend tens of thousands on parts i've allways tried to build the best engines to the lowest cost constantly pushing the stock parts to there limits 2 years ago i reached those limits and have since been trying to save up so that i can put together the ulltimate A20/ET1 build where using custom forged pistons to my own crown design, titanium rods and custom titanium pins to match aren't cheap, had custom valves made to great expense as well as welding to the ports on heads to get the perfect port shape. Yes there are certain things i could do but involves great cost but i choose to guestimate or do the best i can without using the equipment or the workshops that have them as i know majority of people here and even myself can't afford to build a race engine thats gong to cost more than a few grand to put together.
So have a look at the pics an vid in particular the drag vids of the car one such is me keeping inline with a 300ZX twin turbo now if i had anything less than 200bhp this wouldn't be happening, also the little green car was lighter than mine as it's French, had a 2.0l DOHC 16 valve engine freashly built to race specs and Twin 45 dellorto's so on paper he should have beat me but i didn't do his head so he didn't!! The vid of the speedo clip is with 2nd gen lude carbed box which has very tall gears you can see it pulling very well in 3rd upto 7k rpm at a speed of around 100mph 4th gear going upto around 130mph. Now this was an engine that had about 180bhp was the test engine for the big valve conversion which used an A18 head on A20A1 sepc block yes thats Lower CR ratio, the later engine which had an ET bloack to A20A1 specs had an ET1 head with much nicer ports than A18 head equal spacing and also had a really short manifold now this engine instead of dying out at 7krpm like the vid on myspace with exactly the same cams and ironically stock size valves this sucker pushed upto 7500rpm and had nearly 200bhp was easily 15-20bhp more than the A18/A20 hybrid with big valves, now the thing i never got to try was the big valve conversion onto the ET1 i'm sure it would have been mental but the modded stock rods in the ET1 had enough after 30k miles of test driving and they totaled the block fortinately not the head apart from bending most the valves was the only damage. I never got to get any vids of the speedo on that one but the vid of the race track going down across the straight and the drag racing vids are with that engine.
So have a look at my web page if your not on myspace then join if not well sorry you can go to cardomain but no vids are on there just loads of pics.
P.S. theres no Vtec in race engines, and oh wasn't Vtec invented for old grannies so that they could drive there cars to the shops more easily!! On a Vtec engine used for high output use or race use what do they do with Vtec??? Hmmmm they stick it in the bin!!!!!!! Yes thats right all high end Vtec engines end up with Vtec disabled or kicking in much earlier than factory settings. So enough of the learning ridicule get real yourself you've taken the easy why slap a turbo on it i've been squeezing N/A power out of these engines longer than you've been driving so i think i've learnt tad more than you give me credit for.
Vtec was designed so that people could drive their cars easier at low speeds and for better fuel economy it was not designed for how power engine output. Personally i like my car behaving like a mule and sounding like a scalded cat gives it character driving around in a Vtec is like pushing a shopping trolley Fing boring.
Shame were not vaguely close i bet my webered A20 would have a lot of fun beating your turbo cars not only do you have to worry about boost adn lg, but the sudden spike in torque makes for interesting handling, Hell i bet you'd have a job getting past my Diesel!!
Bass man if your old man has access to carbs for bikes and knows someone who can tune them this is your best bet, all you need to do is make a flange this can be done by using your old inlet gasket as a template then just get some tubing and weld them to the falnge the carb neds only have to be round as the rubber mounts slide onto those, obvsiouly they have to be the same diameter to fit and you'd have to carefully crush and shape the other end to mactch the oval ports on your head but can be done, have a look on my myspace page has an A20 inlet manifodl on it give you some idea. But with bike carbs you won't wish you had Vtec once you here them start up and rev you'll be saying see you later vtec as you go pass em!!! Come on the carbs you know it makes sense!! If you got the welding then this is what i would definately be doing, all you need is to uprate your fuel pump and add FPR onto the fuel line and bosh on teh carbs job done.
FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!!!!!
:lol:
calm down guys.... rjudgey, you knw your shit about n/a... accordtheory, you know your shit when it comes to turbo... so calm down guys.. now give each other a hug :)
Lol @ gfrg88
rjudgey! That is a great contribute to this thread, and I appreciate it. But I need some more info.
Like what carbs are usable in this??
This is something that A20A1 did with the intake:
https://www.3geez.com/forum/attachmen...achmentid=3879
I'd say it is a good idea...
But I could just build my own manifold.
Thanks a lot for the help.
You have loads of options any carb will work a carb is a carb you put fuel to it and a throttle cable and it works simple as, just find the biggest bike carbs you can get, you can go something similar as A20A1 and just use to fat harley carbs thats another option or you could use a Weber DCOE 50/55 is another option but as bike carbs are cheaper thats the way to go really, you may need to be a bit inventive with teh linkages for two bike carbs but nothing that you can handle with a bit of welding and some rods. If your going for a twin carb setup just get as big a bore as you can ideally something around 40-45mm to start with and then as you progress you may need either two more carbs or go with two more that are bigger e.g. 50-55mm bore size if you can get them that big for harleys??? The biggest i know are 40mm off a Honda Firebalde sports bike with a 1000cc engine so look for carbs that are off highly tuned sports bikes or large cc Harleys that are tuned a bit.
Sweet... I guess I will start searching around for some carbs.
The Bore was what I was looking for.
Ifyou can go for some newer types or aftermarket ones they'll be more tuneable this is maybe where your oldman can hlpe out with more don't get anything too old looking and coroded be too much hassle also check inside to make sure they are not full of dried up fuel or they won't work properly dried fuel is impossible to clean out even with sonic cleaning is very difficult.
should there be any play in the valve springs on an a20a1?
Play in the valve springs?? There should be well over 15-20lbs of force on the valves with the rocker completely off of it... If you can push the valve open with your hand, that isn't right.
Are you talking about play between the rocker and the valve??
i can move the rocker on 2 of my exaust valves, i just tried to tighten it with a ratchet but it didn't work
What do you mean by move as in it moves a tiny bit like 1mm or like you can push it all the way in as in 1cm down or half or 1/4 of an inch?
There is supposed to be play in the rockers but were talking about a gap of 0.15mm on the inlet and 0.30mm on the exhaust so you will notice movement on them if your mucking about with them
Accord Threory<<<>>>rjudgey classic old school vs new school
I appreciate and enjoy both of your posts here and over yonders
One thing to consider is DD drivability and environment changes, so if you build this A20 too wild it will be impractical to drive daily and get gas mileage like a V8.
What I get is new school you get the power and probably better drivability but is will cost serious $$ if you are not resouceful. With old school you get simplicity with raw instant power but don't go "hawg" wild with the induction or you will have a tempermental power plant.
well im no machinist so i cant go too crazy. what do you need for a port polish? do you have to buy a kit or can you use a dremmel?Quote:
Originally Posted by roodoo2
It's called Port & Polish, and I suggest only skill machinest with the right tool should do it... I'm far from it.
I acually think I am going with a weber.
what about just cleaning up inside the head?
Headwork, you don't have to have anything amazingly special but you do have to be to a degree pretty handy with your hands to do a good job, if making models, or DIY, or even body work isn't your thing then stay clear but if your handy with a dremel with a flexible shaft then all you need is some sanding drums, flap wheels and some stones for a DIY port job, if you stick to things that i have mentioned in teh past posts and guides to DIY head work then you'll be fine, just a quick clean up inside, with some minor work to the inlet ports, more work invovled in the exhuast port, and some cleaning up in the chambers combined with 3 angle race cut seats and cuts on the valve head you can get some some gains with a mild to wild setup. You'll get even more if you can increase the size of your valves but you'll need considerable increase in fuleing and air intake to benefit from this.
Guess I hit a nerve there.. Whatever. I never thought you were full of shit, I just wanted to see the dyno plot. A dyno chart is a completely different thing from a quarter mile result. A dyno chart shows you the engine's torque across it's entire operating range, the printout from the dragstrip sure as fuck doesn't. Obviously, we all know your trap speed, and e.t, to a leser degree, is a function of the power you were able to average to the ground during the run, but the dyno tells you more. I was just curious to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjudgey
You've taken what I've said far too much as criticism when it's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjudgey
Sigh..okay, trying to to get emotionally involved in my post here. Vtec was created by an engineer with the goal of 100hp/liter without any compromise in fuel economy/efficiency or lower rpm power. I'd say the engineer suceeded quite admirably. I don't think you really understand that point of vtec. Actually, I take that back, I know you don't. The point is a better, flatter torque curve. No compromise.
Next, vtec is not diabled in race engines. Yes, there are roller valvetrain setups available that eliminate the vtec lobe and just use huge primary lobes instead, but that is just a matter of preference. More racers don't use that than do. You would never use that on a street car, or a motor that spends any time under about 5k rpm. There is no drawback to vtec. It's engineering without compromise. You can put the crower 404s in a ls, or get a gsr. With the gsr, you get the smooth idle, nice fuel economy, and the upper rpm VE of the bigger lobes.
As far as vtec engaging earlier than factory settings in a "race engine", that's completely incorrect. I suspect you don't even know how to tune the vtec engagement point. You do, tell me back, because you can bet I can tell you exactly how.
I really don't understand why you don't take advantage of technology and apply your knowledge of porting, head mods, "fluid dynamics", etc to a vtec motor. It all still applies, and you can run cams with huge vtec lobes for insane upper rpm power. There are people who have achieved nearly 300whp n/a with the b series motors. You could still even run carbs with the vtec if you wanted to.
Now as far as "the learning ridicule", that pisses me off. That wasn't directed at you, I said the to the o.p., keep learning (before you commit to anything) Tell me how the fuck that's bad advice. Seriously. And if you want to debate me, go ahead. You've been building these motors for longer than I've been driving? What kind of bullshit is that? At 26, I'm not much of a kid anymore, and if you think your seniority is going to earn you a win by default, keep thinking.
"Shame were not vaguely close i bet my webered A20 would have a lot of fun beating your turbo cars not only do you have to worry about boost adn lg, but the sudden spike in torque makes for interesting handling, Hell i bet you'd have a job getting past my Diesel!!"
And if this pointless shit talking is a reflection of the maturity associated with your seniority (how old are you anyway?) you'd probably get your ass fucking handed to you.
Too bad I don't have any time these days to work on my car, 60+hrs a week doesn't leave me much energy or time to finish building my turbosystem..but it won't be anything slower than 11s when it's driving again.
But.......... How easy and cheap is it to V-tec a 3g?? I assume it's much cheaper and easier to get the head worked on than it is to get V-tec.
On the point of daily driving, I would much rather have V-tec. I would much rather have V-tec with headwork done by rjudgey if I were to make a very fast N/A bracket car, but I am far from spending money on my car...
What kind of V-tec options are there??
:thumbdn::wtf::uh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Man
like i said vtec is not everything...i need to show you guys a vid of a NA a20 can do
lets see some...Quote:
Originally Posted by MessyHonda
I'm very impressed with mine after a little tuning, but I know I can get more out of it without taking off the head...
not trying to get into an argument here with anyone but
in the uk in the btcc honda used to race what most countries call an ascot innova but they called it an accord liftback.
these were prob the most ighly developed honda na four cylinder motors ever
they wnt so far as to turn the head round so the inlets are at the front and used big fuck off quad slide throttle bodies, 55 plus mm if what i,ve heard is right
since the btcc cars didnt operate below 6000 rpm very often, vtec was deemed redundant and completely removed for fears of reliablity under continued extreme conditions and for the fact it was excess moving parts
i agree with rjudgey, that an a20 or b20 with big arse cams sound awesome even tho they tend to be a pig to drive at round town speeds.
i also like having my big h22a vtec accord as a dd
gives me the nice 40mpg for my commute and the go to overtake quickly and waste wannabe
racers in primeras and corollas with ease
there are big arguements for both sides
i personally like na motors with big cams/ but also like turbos and vtec
First, it's VTEC. Not V-tech. Valve Timing Electronic Control. It's an actual acronym, not like these faggot ass names used by most other manufacturers, like ford's zetec, gm's ecotec, vortec, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass Man
The options are basically a gsr, h22, or the newer k series. I left out the b16 because it's just too tiny in my opinion..although I'm sure someone with a b16 will get all butthurt and argue with me about this.
Lol!! I don't know why the hell I said V-tec.... I've been around vtec longer than 3g's.
Those swaps are pretty dang hard IMO.
Accord Theory lets take this down a level had a chat with a few of your members and they like you but all say your pretty tough on people and to be honest so am i when they get my back up so lets chill out a little here. No need to get so angry cause he got carried away with adding a H to the Vtec easy mistake to make your way to harsh there man!!
I don't just apply my theories to A20's and ET's i've worked on many different types of heads, and not just B20A as well, i've modded 2.0l 4 cylinder BMW engines, i've done Lotus Elan head (Isuzu engine BTW), working on pressently Toyota Starlet 5EFE engine which is going to be all out race engine with Quad bike carbs (Friends son's car), as well as Rover K series which is Vtec (designed in conjunction with Honda), and in future going to be getting a full BMW diesel unit which will have head work and manifold work done to that.
I've no doubt you've got 11 second car but i'm talking about track racing here not drag if our cars would ever meet it would be the fastest not because it has more power but it can put it down more effectively not to mention stop and handle better (although being much lighter gives it the handling advantage) the stopping because i had custom 4 pot race caliper and disks designed for my 2G lude as well.
I have no bones about not working on Vtec engines i would love to work on a Vtec head all i'm saying that for myself personally and anyone else who is after a hardccore engine the Vtec is not needed it's just for people who want everyday driveability in there little shopping cart. Personally i like cars with character and vtec takes away the character of the car and it's engine that is the point i'm trying to make, the part of what makes driving fun is that the car has a bit of a bite to it and if you don't treat it right it acts like a donkey!!! But fortunately goes like a race horse!!!
Now i have no doubt you can tune and bolt on a turbo to make big power thats your bag mine is to just use the drag strip as a cheap tuning session and have a bit of fun with the kids and there new hot hatches getting beat by a 25 year old honda. I like my fun on the race track taking on bigger stuff like porsches and Lotus Elise's the car is designed as a track car from the suspension, brakes, and to certain extent the engine as well. I've had 285 degree cam in my engines and to be honest they've all been perfectly tractable and they've delivered power all the way upto 8k rpm with pretty good reliability from stock parts, they idle at 1000rpm sound a bit lumpy and if your not gentle with the throttle and clutch can jump around like a kangaroo occasionally but other than that more than happy to drive it around traffic etc. Now i know a full on race cam such as a 300+ degree might be a different story but i don't think a cam is really needed that high in an A20 you use the A20's benefits of gobs full of torque to get the accelleration you need and with head work and some medium specced cams you get that and thats what makes my car so quick is the good combination of torque and bhp where as a 300bhp B series is just like a Bike engine all bhp and not much torque. Also A20 has the potential for Bhp just needs the right ingredients the King Motorports 2nd gen lude had 348bhp just wish they would let me know how (and i have asked!!!)
But also like you dabbling with turbos on a steep learning curve but getting there, although used as a Daily driver and for work i'm doing this in stages and when it's time to buy a new car to use this will become my next track weapon. My Baby Beemer 120d Msport has allready had the ECU tuned by a BMW diesel specialist, had air induction mods including filter, and reworking of the BMW CAI done by myself which included some flowing and cleaning up of the insides of the plastic mouldings, recalibrated chip on the throttle pedal (Fly by wire) which accounted for a 6bhp increase!!! shocked by that!! This so far has my oil burner putting down around 215bhp and about 310lbft torque, but soon will be fitting a custom ally intercooler, and a new larger stainless steel exhaust system, this should boost it up a little more on the stock turbo to about 230bhp and bit more torque. But after this will be full on head and manifold work, with cams, valves, bigger injectors from 335d, and then were getting serious as it will be getting LPG system added to mix with the diesel with a new hybrid turbo with 360 degree thrust bearing as the stock unit doesn't last too long 25k miles!!! Then we'll be looking at another session at the ECU tuners to be getting around 300bhp with the potential for more if i decide to put NOS in by this time i'll be looking at 330d clutch and a racing LSD for the diff fortunately it's RWD so no more spinning up the front wheels and sitting still burning rubber so the power can be effectively put down. I've talked to the tuner who allready has been doing LPG mods to Diesels and 300bhp is very achievable and maybe even more is possible. With Nos could be easily another 50bhp on top and looking at torque of around 400-450lbft now did you know that one of the fastest top fuel dragsters is actually a diesel running an LPG and NOS mix so there you go are you sure you still wanna play around with VTec and petrol :o) I'm just keeping my options open i have my old school honda with it's old school tuning methods and then i have my modern Derv oil burner with modern way of thinking for huge power and torque increases. now all i have to do with the beemer is work out where they hid all the lead ballast in the damn thing cause for the life of me i can't work out why it weighs 1500kg's!!!!! With the mods done on my Beemer so far at stock weight with a tow bar fixment on it i've run 14.9 second 1/4 mile not bad for a diesel wouldn't you say but this is only going to get better especially when i get some better tyres!! Also pretty handy on the race track as well the ultra stiff Msport suspension and the brakes are brilliant even being OEM they perfrom like a race car and have lapped as quickly as non turbo porsches, Lotus's, BMW M3's, and similar cars. Allways leaves people shocked not sure which is more fun beating people in a Diesel or the 25 year old honda!!!
Anyways back on track any luck with the Bike carbs, inlet manifold really wouldn't be that hard the trouble with the weber DGV 38/38 is the the butterfly's open up the wrong way, and the extra bend in it being a downdraught kills the flow a bit. The bike carbs are a good way to go better at low end speeds as well whereas the webers are a bit lumpy and bumpy. Unles you go with the 32/36 but perfromance increase over stock is not much more. Worth thinking about a single DCOE though quite common on some engines although they are mostly smaller than 1600cc but if you use a big enough one and jet it correctly should be fine for a 2.0l as well.
also honda Vtec system is good but others have developed and made systems as good maybe even better e.g mitsubshi MIVEC in the 2.0l V6 was at the time putting down better bhp numbers than Hondas own Vtec engines. I believe it was the first to get the 100bhp per litre accolade on a N/A 2.0l engine. But yes it's good and many have failed to do as good a job but i think most have caught up especially BMW have some pretty damn fancy variable systems which combined with their new direct injection petrol heads give some really good results with superb fuel economy way better than K20, yes K20 has abit more power but at cost to fuel economy and if were argueing over Vtec technology fuel economy is a big deal for these engines otherwise whats the point having the Vtec.
Were also getting to the point where engines are all pretty much the same and no one has come out with any new big ideas (except maybe BMW with direct injection petrol heads) but they are all still basically the same, they are all 4 stroke, have pistons, valves, cams, and injectors about time some one did something truly different that will make a mark on the world, i hope it's honda but we really need to be thinking beyond petrol or at least making petrol work the best it can while we still have it!!!
I don't have an 11 second car, I just have a project in pieces. I have a tig welder, money and knowledge, but no free time. I also still need the intercooler, injectors, hondata s300, etc. As far as the handling, I have the $700 revalved bilsteins, and will get ground controls and ST swaybars to round out the package. I also want the quaife diff. I figure that, along with some decent tires on my 17s, will help considerably. My brakes are just the ebc yellow pads with the 88/89 disks. Those are damn good though.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjudgey
I don't know about the mivec or whatever system, but it would surprise the hell out of me if mitsubishi came up with something on par with honda. My favorite system (that I currently understand anyway) is BMW's "valvetronic" setup.
As far as diesels, I do like them. The higher dynamic compression just makes sense. I plan on buying a dodge truck with the cummins and modifying that at some point not too far in the future.
rjudgey what do you mean 38 DG butterflys open the wrong way?
the butterfly's when opening starve the other side of the manifold also when cornering hard the fuel gets starved as well, the position that the DGV 38/38 fits on a 3G isn't how Weber designed it to be used so it doesn't work too well. DGV 32/36 works better but as it's smaller you get less power. Really with any performance carb you really should make a custom inlet manifold to get the best out of them. Still think a Single DCOE would be best for Daily driver or even two fat bike carbs.
position? you mean angle of the thottle plates? I have a DFAV so I already have it backward. What else do you mean, twisted sideways or plenum area. If you don't mind elaborating a little or point me to a reference or link.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjudgey
That is a bold statement... I dred just looking under the hood on these diesels. There are so much more sensors on diesel engines, I just stay away...Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
But I've seen a lot of 13-14 second 96-2008 dodges (never seen a ford on the track :P)
Diesel is the way to go even with all the mods i have and teh power output i get better gas mileage than from stock average about 45mpg and if on motorway can cruise at around 60-65mpg at around 75-80mph!!!! But as we pay nearly $2.50 a litre for top quality diesel it had better do lots of mpg!!!!!
Hmmm surprised you haven't got the hot bits suspension your 3G?? Can't wait to fit mine in the near future. Glad you like the BMW technology kinda amusing really as they really were quite backwards in engine design for a while then they suddenly came out with direct head inject and better variable valve control, they allways were good at the M series engines but there everyday runners were miles behind the competition. But now they are leading the technology front in power and emissions in both diesel and petrol!! Wonder how long it will be before we see variable timing on diesels!!!
Love the rush you get from Diesel i really need to take some video footage of the Diesel i think even you guy's would be impressed it's so quick once you get it moving bit slow upto 75mph as you have to change gears 3 times bit once your into 4th gear and above it just leaves most things standing really needs a 7th gear though as it tops out at 155mph in 6th at max revs with a taller 6th gear and bigger rear tyres i reckon it could go as far as 160mph maybe bit more. Other impressive thing is how smooth the dyno graph is on this one had this done by DMS real BMW diesel specialist they even flyout to U.S.A to do remap for customers really really smooth curves and the torque is amzingly even throughout the rev range with the bhp peaking right at the end of the rpm range.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member...25_83_full.jpg
Thats an early dyno when the engine had been run in nicely after 10k miles and had just a re-map done, good figures though was 209bhp and 296lbft of torque, but really need to get a nice exhaust made up with maybe a Hi Flow cat put in but we'll see waiting for the old one to fall apart a bit more first. Can't wait to see howmuch more i can get out of the stock turbo but need to be aware of the clutch not sure what the limit is it can handle hopefully it's same clutch plate as the bigger engines seems to handle what it has without any issues done 58k miles and still gripping strong with biting point still nice an low.
Must confess i do actually enjoy driving the Beemer more a little on track being RWD and having so much torque does make it rather interesting although my lude is still more fun ultimately as you feel like you done 10 rounds with mike tyson after a track day in the lude the BMW is easy riding although very quick lack sthe raw racer element you get with the lude.
I redline at 7200-3500 ish.... Power stops around 6600-6800 I dont pay too much attention....so i cant be sure on #'s....
just food for thought...
~TDR
