Oooops another fire

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08-19-2008, 07:11 PM
EricW

Oooops another fire/New motor build thread

My car caught fire after my second run at this months autocross. The cause of the fire was the dipstick being blown out and oil being blown all over the motor. Its been torn down for a week now, tore it down the next day and cleaned as much as possible. Had to order less than $200 worth of stuff, already had every thing else. The bulk of the price was new heat wrap just because I wanted to replace it while the car was torn down. I will be improving the crank case ventilation while the car is down and adding a hold down spring for the dipstick.

New Parts needed:
Clutch cable
speedo cable
new plug wires
new plug wire holder
some new heat wrap

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_IMG_0090.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_IMG_0091.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_IMG_0092.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_IMG_0093.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_IMG_0096.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_IMG_0095.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_IMG_0094.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...0810081247.jpg
The way home. McDonald's at 1:30am.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_CIMG1102.jpg

(yes, we pulled the whole truck and trailer through the drive through.)
08-19-2008, 07:40 PM
ghettogeddy

Re: Oooops another fire

damn that sucks
what keeps doing it
08-19-2008, 07:45 PM
EricW

Re: Oooops another fire

The 1st was from the power steering hose getting to hot and bursting, This time the dipstick blew out and the excess crankcase pressure blew oil out also and the oil caught fire. All will be fixed though. As you can see it really didn't bother me that much by the look on my face.
08-19-2008, 07:46 PM
A18A

Re: Oooops another fire

sheesh thats nasty. good thing it didnt spread and ruin too much
08-19-2008, 08:16 PM
Ichiban

Re: Oooops another fire

That's funny. Good thing you got the fire out.
08-19-2008, 08:18 PM
Pico

Re: Oooops another fire

your taking it quite well considering this is the second fire,
08-19-2008, 08:53 PM

Re: Oooops another fire

Awesome pic of the truck and trailer in the drive through! Good work!
08-19-2008, 09:04 PM
Accordtheory

Re: Oooops another fire

At least it doesn't look like that much was damaged.

Why do you have crankcase pressure like that though? I see you have a hose leading from your valve cover, but I can't see where it goes..I'm guessing some type of catch can. Is that hose the only opening for exiting crank pressure? There are a few different ways to set that whole thing up, but no matter what, you should never have any real pressure in your crankcase. Nowhere near enough to push the dipstick out..
08-19-2008, 10:26 PM
EricW

Re: Oooops another fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accordtheory

At least it doesn't look like that much was damaged.

Why do you have crankcase pressure like that though? I see you have a hose leading from your valve cover, but I can't see where it goes..I'm guessing some type of catch can. Is that hose the only opening for exiting crank pressure? There are a few different ways to set that whole thing up, but no matter what, you should never have any real pressure in your crankcase. Nowhere near enough to push the dipstick out..

Stock motor with 151k pushing 12psi, It didn't start happening till i switched to a thicker oil. I'm running 15w50 since 10w30 gets too thin after 2 runs at the drag strip. The valve cover is vented, but I'm going to remove the hose to the pcv valve and use that as a vent also. Dsm's/Evo's have problems with the dip stick also.
08-19-2008, 11:06 PM
AccordB20A

Re: Oooops another fire

bad luck with oil fires ay.
08-19-2008, 11:36 PM
MessyHonda

Re: Oooops another fire

wow that sucks....good news...i got my igniter bypass installed...car started up fine....but it dies sometimes...im going to upgrade my grounds to see what happens.
08-20-2008, 03:34 AM
EricW

Re: Oooops another fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by MessyHonda

wow that sucks....good news...i got my igniter bypass installed...car started up fine....but it dies sometimes...im going to upgrade my grounds to see what happens.

Its not that big of a deal I've been wanting to redo the turbo blanket anyway. Good to hear, I wonder what's causing it to die though.
08-20-2008, 04:00 AM
2oodoor

Re: Oooops another fire

You think the motor is beating up the oil that soon, after two runs? I suspect you may be worried about it too much on that.
The whole time I was reading the thread I was thinking something then you confirmed it when you said what oil you were using. You think it may be possible that the crank vents you do have in place are being blocked by the oil itself being too thick, this would also be enhanced by slinging it around in autocross.
08-20-2008, 09:12 AM
Accordtheory

Re: Oooops another fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricW

Stock motor with 151k pushing 12psi, It didn't start happening till i switched to a thicker oil. I'm running 15w50 since 10w30 gets too thin after 2 runs at the drag strip. The valve cover is vented, but I'm going to remove the hose to the pcv valve and use that as a vent also. Dsm's/Evo's have problems with the dip stick also.

Dsm/evos have really half assed crank ventilation then..

Well, if you remove the pcv valve, your oil will get black very quickly, like 500 miles of street driving. Obviously, there are better ways or setting up a crank ventilation system. But if you only drive it in boost, or on some kind of track, then whatever, that would wouldn't matter.

Interesting that the higher oil viscosity exacerbates the problem. Why do you say 10w30 gets too thin? What is your oil press with that? What is your oil press with 15/50?
2 runs at the dragstrip shouldn't do shit to your oil.

When I cracked the ring lands on one of my pistons on my a20 like 5 or 6 years ago, if I didn't drive the car really easily, (a lot of vacuum on the freeway) I observed my oil press would drop, the gauge would start kind of twitching and drop down to about 40 or so, I always left off when I saw it doing this immediately. I hardly drove the car at all with the broken piston, but enough to observe this phenomenon. I theorized that the blow by was sufficient to push enough oil up into the head through the oil return passageways in the block to partially starve the oil pickup, and/or aerate the oil so bad that it would start to turn to foam in the crankcase.
I just had a little k&n filter on the valve cover, and the stock pcv system. (although I checked it to make sure the pcv valve did actually block the boost from getting into the crankcase from the intake manifold like it should. A lot of newer plastic ones are garbage, they flow the same either direction. Most people do Not know this) That was perfectly adequate for my big 16g turbo and 12lbs though, until I cracked the ring land..

However, I didn't really get a chance to experiment with any more a20 shit, I just swapped the motor/trans out for one that turned out to be in ever worse condition..ugghh. Then I went b series.

What does your motor show for compression/leakdown? I'm betting that's most of your problem right there.

I don't really know if the oil return passages in the a20 block are small enough to make venting all the blow by of a high powered setup through the head/valve cover a problem, but I highly doubt it. I'd say if your motor is in decent shape, you should be able to just run a few large hoses plumbed into the valve cover to a catch can with a filter on top of it, and keep the pcv valve in place. At least if it is the oem high quality metal one. That should be good for more power than anyone on here makes, and it will still keep the oil clean.

Hope this post helps you out somehow..
08-20-2008, 08:40 PM
EricW

Re: Oooops another fire

I haven't had a chance to do a compression test since it started pouring down rain when i was about to do it. I'm going to do a compression test before i put the car back together. I'm running the stock pcv system with the valve cover vent connected to my crank case ventilation system that dumps into the exhaust. With a metal pcv valve.

I had driven the car to the track and let it cool for at least 30min then did two runs and pulled back into the pit area to let it idle down. The coolant temp was 202* according to ectune so I let it idle with the fan on for a couple of minutes and went to check on it again and the oil pressure light was turning on and off so i checked the pressure gauge and sure enough it was almost at the lowest mark. The idle was around 800rpm. I turned the off and let it cool for about 45min and cranked it back up and the oil pressure was normal.
08-21-2008, 09:37 PM
snoopyloopy

Re: Oooops another fire

yay for the dipstick fires! (not)
that's what happened to my eclipse, which is why i got it to begin with. looks like none of the wires got burned which is good. replacing wiring harness on eclipse was a big pain.
08-22-2008, 06:47 AM
carotman

Re: Oooops another fire

Lol, that kind of stuff usually happens to the VWs lmao

Glad this didn't cause any important damage.
08-22-2008, 07:38 AM
Accordtheory

Re: Oooops another fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricW

I'm running the stock pcv system with the valve cover vent connected to my crank case ventilation system that dumps into the exhaust. With a metal pcv valve.

I had driven the car to the track and let it cool for at least 30min then did two runs and pulled back into the pit area to let it idle down. The coolant temp was 202* according to ectune so I let it idle with the fan on for a couple of minutes and went to check on it again and the oil pressure light was turning on and off so i checked the pressure gauge and sure enough it was almost at the lowest mark. The idle was around 800rpm. I turned the off and let it cool for about 45min and cranked it back up and the oil pressure was normal.

Could you elaborate on how you have the crank ventilation going into the exhaust? When the pcv system is all oem, it draws air in through the valve cover, how does it do this when you have it connected to the exhaust? I'm guessing it can't. And then when you're boosting, the exhaust thing isn't doing its job either, since you obviously have crankcase pressure issues. I'd ditch that exaust vacuum thing, myself, and just run a catch can.

With your oil pressure, that light comes on with less than 7psi. That light should never come on..
What did your oil look like, did you check it right then? I'm assuming you did, did it look foamy or anything weird? You did 2 runs at the dragstrip back to back and that caused the light to come on?
What is your normal oil press reading? What is when you're at idle normally, or cruising normally?
08-22-2008, 09:42 AM

Re: Oooops another fire

I'd be afraid with having that tube hooked to the exhaust that it's actually pushing exhaust into the crankcase... And there's your pressure.
08-22-2008, 10:44 AM
Vanilla Sky

Re: Oooops another fire

If the bung is welded at an angle less than 45º, then there will be a vacuum pulled. Personally, I think I'd be more concerned with rings than with vacuum. Maybe you should put a pressure gauge on your crankcase to see how much pressure you're building.
08-22-2008, 10:52 AM

Re: Oooops another fire

Interesting. I didn't know they made kits like this for doing just such a thing... Didn't even know you could.

http://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstu...scavenging.htm
08-22-2008, 11:28 AM
Rendon LX-i

Re: Oooops another fire

yeah my boss has that set up on his 383 stroker s10 pick up...he says he works great. i asked him yesterday and he brought the pick up today..
08-22-2008, 04:50 PM
lostforawhile

Re: Oooops another fire

you connected the exaust to the crankcase and didn't install a metal reed valve? no wonder your dip stick is blowing out. get a reed valve,they are almost universal on older american cars,this will allow you to pull a vaccume but keep exaust from going backwards,the angle will not stop exaust from backing up. it's under pressure it doesn't care what angle it is. I think summit also sells the check valves for your application .
08-22-2008, 04:57 PM
lostforawhile

Re: Oooops another fire

heres your valve, you HAVE to have a valve in there, anytime crankcase pressure is lower then exaust pressure, the exaust is going to try and pressureize the crankcase. http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...38&D=%2D145338
08-22-2008, 06:32 PM
EricW

Re: Oooops another fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by Accordtheory

Could you elaborate on how you have the crank ventilation going into the exhaust? When the pcv system is all oem, it draws air in through the valve cover, how does it do this when you have it connected to the exhaust? I'm guessing it can't. And then when you're boosting, the exhaust thing isn't doing its job either, since you obviously have crankcase pressure issues. I'd ditch that exaust vacuum thing, myself, and just run a catch can.

With your oil pressure, that light comes on with less than 7psi. That light should never come on..
What did your oil look like, did you check it right then? I'm assuming you did, did it look foamy or anything weird? You did 2 runs at the dragstrip back to back and that caused the light to come on?
What is your normal oil press reading? What is when you're at idle normally, or cruising normally?

The crankcase evac system is the same thing as what 2ndGenGuy listed. I left the pcv valve in with the tube to the intake manifold and connected the valve cover to the crankcase evac system.

They weren't my first 2 runs, I had done 2 earlier but let the car sit for at least 30 minutes before i went for the next two.

Yes, I checked my oil immediately and i couldn't see any on the dip stick(mind you i checked it before i went and it was at the full mark) so i added some oil and still couldn't see it and then added the rest of the quart. I allowed the car to sit for another 30min or so and then went and checked the oil again and it was at least a 1/2" over the full mark. So I concluded the oil was to thin to stick the dip stick at that point. I changed the oil the next night to 15w50.

My oil pressure at idle is around 20psi and cruise is around 40psi. I'm going to get some compression numbers after all the rain is gone from this hurricane, its really limiting me from working on the car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2ndGenGuy

Interesting. I didn't know they made kits like this for doing just such a thing... Didn't even know you could.

http://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstu...scavenging.htm

I've been running one since i turboed the car with no problems until now. I ran across it when searching for catch cans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla Sky

If the bung is welded at an angle less than 45º, then there will be a vacuum pulled. Personally, I think I'd be more concerned with rings than with vacuum. Maybe you should put a pressure gauge on your crankcase to see how much pressure you're building.

I've considered it I just don't have another gauge to do it with at the moment. I may see about using the stock map sensor and a meter to go about doing it though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostforawhile

you connected the exaust to the crankcase and didn't install a metal reed valve? no wonder your dip stick is blowing out. get a reed valve,they are almost universal on older american cars,this will allow you to pull a vaccume but keep exaust from going backwards,the angle will not stop exaust from backing up. it's under pressure it doesn't care what angle it is. I think summit also sells the check valves for your application .

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostforawhile

heres your valve, you HAVE to have a valve in there, anytime crankcase pressure is lower then exaust pressure, the exaust is going to try and pressureize the crankcase. http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...38&D=%2D145338

I'm running a check valve. I installed everything according to the instructions. I even checked the angle several times during and after the install to make sure it was correct. I haven't had any problems until now. I'm going to pull the valve out and check while the car is up on stands. I'm going to have to wait for this hurricane to go by first though.
08-22-2008, 10:19 PM
Ichiban

Re: Oooops another fire

Seems like most of you have never heard of the PAIR system, it's designed to draw air into the exhaust system in order to provide enough unbound oxygen for the catalytic converter to function.

It's simply a check valve that allows air in during the low pressure event following an exhaust pulse and preventing exhaust from escaping during the pulse itself. These pressure/vacuum events are the same ones responsible for scavenging and the theory behind tuned headers (one pulse creates a low pressure event behind it helping to draw the next out of the cylinder, increasing efficiency.)
08-23-2008, 03:47 AM
lostforawhile

Re: Oooops another fire

another thing,check your pcv valve again, and check the box at the back of the engine, and check that hose at the back of the oil pan to make sure it's not collapsed. even if you were building up crankcase pressure, it should escape out the breather hose on the top of the valve cover. pull that hose off of the valve cover, make sure theres nothing in it, like a june bug, blow through it towards the valve cover,air should flow freely, there is also a filter inside of the air cleaner if i remember right. i'm going to re read your posts and see if i missed anything.
08-23-2008, 04:00 AM
lostforawhile

Re: Oooops another fire

I wonder if the pressure from the boost is getting past the pcv valve? with 12 psi of boost it's very possible. thats plenty of pressure to force out the dip stick. do you have an air compressor? pull out the pcv valve, and use a pressure regulator to try to force 12 psi backwards through it. leave the engine end hooked up, disconnect the end that goes into your manifold, try to send sudden pressure through it, like if it went boost when you hit the gas, see if the dip stick pops out now. another ting,since you are doing autocross, at higher g forces, it's possible for the pcv system to pick up oil through the vent at the top of the pan, normally the oil seprator at the back of the block sends this oil back, but with a heavier oil and a lot of it,it could be preventing the pan from venting, due to saturation in the seperator
08-23-2008, 01:09 PM
Vanilla Sky

Re: Oooops another fire

What brand of oil are you running? You might need something that can handle the heat better.
08-23-2008, 02:11 PM
EricW

Re: Oooops another fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla Sky

What brand of oil are you running? You might need something that can handle the heat better.

Mobile 1 full synthetic.
08-23-2008, 02:14 PM
lostforawhile

Re: Oooops another fire

look for a pcv valve off of a factory turbo car,i still think pressure might be blowing backward under full boost.
08-24-2008, 10:50 PM
EricW

Re: Oooops another fire

Well Found out what was causing my excess crankcase pressure. Did a compression test and cylinder 2 only came up to 70. Did a wet test and it came up to 120.
08-27-2008, 08:15 AM
guaynabo89

Re: Oooops another fire

sorry to herar about the second fire and compression test.

Hows it run as is? You gonna drop in another motor yet? Did nt you hae a spare you were building?
08-27-2008, 11:41 AM
EricW

Re: Oooops another fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by guaynabo89

sorry to herar about the second fire and compression test.

Hows it run as is? You gonna drop in another motor yet? Did nt you hae a spare you were building?

I haven't cranked it up since the fire. I tore it down the next day to clean everything and haven't put it back together. I'm taking the spare block to the machine shop today, I want to get it cleaned and its going to need to be bored. After I tore down everything I found out the turbo needed to be rebuilt, so I rebuilt it and sent it off to be balanced yesterday.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_100_2605.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_100_2606.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_100_2607.jpg
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...h_100_2608.jpg
08-27-2008, 11:51 PM
MessyHonda

Re: Oooops another fire

looking good...any plans for valve springs?
08-28-2008, 06:08 PM
EricW

Re: Oooops another fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by MessyHonda

looking good...any plans for valve springs?

Not on this build. I'm just planning on rebuilding it stock with one of my ported and polished heads. When I start building the motor that's going to come out of the car valve springs are definitely going to be a must.
09-01-2008, 08:02 AM
EricW

Re: Oooops another fire

UPDATE

Called the machine shop Friday. He said the hone didn't clean up the questionable cylinders so he was going to bore it .020 over to see if that would take care of it.

Has anyone here ever used an aftermarket dipstick? I've been looking at some made by lokar but most of them are built for domestics so i don't know how long they are or the size of the hole in a v8 block in which they fit. A new dipstick would solve to issues i have one is that my charge pipe runs right over it making it hard to get to and I don't really want to repeat this issue again. I like this dipstick that lokar makes.
http://www.lokar.com/product-descrip...g-dipstick.htm
http://www.lokar.com/interior_pages/...tick-inset.jpg
09-01-2008, 08:13 AM
lostforawhile

Re: Oooops another fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricW

UPDATE

Called the machine shop Friday. He said the hone didn't clean up the questionable cylinders so he was going to bore it .020 over to see if that would take care of it.

Has anyone here ever used an aftermarket dipstick? I've been looking at some made by lokar but most of them are built for domestics so i don't know how long they are or the size of the hole in a v8 block in which they fit. A new dipstick would solve to issues i have one is that my charge pipe runs right over it making it hard to get to and I don't really want to repeat this issue again. I like this dipstick that lokar makes.
http://www.lokar.com/product-descrip...g-dipstick.htm
http://www.lokar.com/interior_pages/...tick-inset.jpg

you have to use the universal gauge to fit one,they are near the bottom of the list. you have to put exactly the right amount of oil in, them mark the dipstick i believe.
09-01-2008, 08:36 AM
EricW

Re: Oooops another fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostforawhile

you have to use the universal gauge to fit one,they are near the bottom of the list. you have to put exactly the right amount of oil in, them mark the dipstick i believe.

I realize that part but I want to know if there is a press in one that will fit or If I'm going to have to make one of the threaded ones work.
09-01-2008, 09:05 AM
lostforawhile

Re: Oooops another fire

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricW

I realize that part but I want to know if there is a press in one that will fit or If I'm going to have to make one of the threaded ones work.

the dipstick base removes from the engine you just have to make something adapt to it is all.