Suspension newbie

OK, I definitely claim myself as a suspension newbie and I have the least experience in this area.

So far, for suspensions, I have only changed out all the UCA with ball joints (front and rear), the outer tie rod ends with ball joints.

I am battling with front end vibrations at 75mph. Tires were checked and balanced multiple times to rule out the cause. It is definitely suspension worn out. I changed out the front UCAs and it has helped a lot but the vibration is still there but to a lesser degree. Both axles are intact. However, the bushings are likely original as well as the struts (well, at least for as long as I have own the car for 150k miles).

I don't have much money to spend but I'm changing things one at a time. I think the lower ball joints are probably worn but when I shake the wheels, I don't feel plays.

I know the struts need to be replaced. The rear pass side strut make noise when the car is moving.

There are way too many bushings in our cars and I get confused with them. Also, I know I'm going to miss some kind of bushings or parts if I ONLY buy the struts (like the dust barrel ?, strut top bushings ? lower strut bushings ?)

Ok, what should I replace next for front end vibrations at 75mph ? (Wheels balanced already, UCA replaced and has helped but not eliminated, the bushing on the big side of the "dog bone" wrapped with material to a snug fit) Possible uneven worn front brake discs (those were bought from Advanced years ago) ?

Thanks. -AC

Did you get the car aligned?

Alignment out of whack and deteriorated front and rear motor mounts could cause this.

I would expect motor mounts to cause a shimmy.

Tie rods ends could be shot, though.

Tie rod ends were replaced (after the walmart technician point out the worn ball joints).

Yes, it has been aligned. But I did it myself on the flat horizontal driveway and the toes front and back were checked multiple times with the car rolled to various spots on the driveway and all readings were consistent. I have the toe set to perfect parallel. Tire wear doesn't suggest any excessive toe in or toe out problem.

I have the engine mount replaced about 120k miles ago by a tech (I know, the rubbers are probably gone now). Is it possible to change the mounts myself without an engine lift ? What is the proper way to check worn out engine mount?

Thanks.

if you get lots of vibrations at idle you need new motor mounts

AC439:

Another source of front end vibration could be the lower control arm bushings, considering the other things you have changed / checked and the mileage on your car.

"the bushing on the big side of the "dog bone" wrapped with material to a snug fit" What part is it that you refer to as a "dog bone"? I've spent a significant amount of time under the front end of 3rd gen Accords and have never seen any canine skeletal parts.

Did you use new uca bushings? Does the sound get worse in a gradual turn? That would be a wheel bearing.

http://www.thehondapartsstore.com/he...13sg70_b48.gif
#7 is the "dog bone".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LX-incredible

Did you use new uca bushings? Does the sound get worse in a gradual turn? That would be a wheel bearing.

http://www.thehondapartsstore.com/he...13sg70_b48.gif
#7 is the "dog bone".

---

if you change #7, see if you can't rig up something like guaynobo and you can use the ones on ebay that are dampered.

#7 it is. I now know some dog anatomy in relation to my Accord. This is the rear torque rod (dog bone), part of the engine mounting/isolation system. Correct me if I'm wrong, this torque rod is not tight (its mounting bolts are though) in that it allows the engine to twist slightly under load before the rubber in this mount begins to resist the torque of the engine. I don't know if this would be a major contributing factor in AC439's battle with front end vibrations at 75MPH. As was mentioned by MessyHonda excess vibration at idle points toward worn engine mounts. In AC439's case isolating the exact cause could require methodical replacement of all those damn rubber mounts and bushings until the vibration goes away.

Get up to speed, put the car in neutral and coast. That will tell if it's the mounts or not. I doubt that it is.
Where did he say he was having vibrations at idle?

anyone tort of the intermediate shaft bearing
mine had a vibe and it turned out the bearing was a bit sloppy
swapped it out, no more vibes

We didn't get those here, different motor.

so you guys have a big long drive shaft on the drivers side and dont have the intermediate mount?
must torque steer like a mutha

Lilbit.

shit, the b20a tprque steers a bit with one, hate to imagine what i'd be like with out one.
full throttle lane changes.lol

if you have already replaced your UCA's and tie rods, the next thing that i would suggest is a possible warped front brake rotor or shot front wheel bearings. i have replaced both front wheel bearings along with the UCA's and tie rods. that fixed every thing wrong with my coupe. try jacking the car off the ground and grab a front wheel at 9 and 3 o'clock and push and pull in and out. that will give you a basic diagnosis as to tie rod play. then do the same but while doing it at 12 and 6 o'clock. that will give you a basic diagnosis as to the wheel bearing condition. if ther is any movement( slack or play) in the wheel bearing, no matter how small, that will deffinatly give you a driving vibration. hope this helps.

p.s. dont forget to check the radious rods. if either of the 2 bushings( located ware the rods mounts to the front subframe, coming off the front lower control arm) are worn out, cracked, or deteriorated, that may cause a vibration as well because the front wheels may be shifting forward or back under various torque loads.

Thanks for replies. After reading all the comments, this is exactly the situation I'm afraid of - everything is a possibility and too many parts to change. Of course, I understand the car is 23 years old and I literally have to change out everything to restore the suspension.

The dog bone I'm referring to is item #7 on the diagram.

I have done the 3&9 o'clock and the 12&6 o'clock test and don't feel play after chaning out the UCAa and the outer tie-rods/balljoints. The LCA/balljoint have not been changed though.

The vibration comes usually (not always) when the car is at 75mph. It doesn't feel like a out of balance wheel vibration - it is not very regular (the out of balance wheel shakes with a regular rhythm) and feels coming from the front of the car (not just from the steering wheel). Also, there are times when the car reaches 75mph but there is no noticable increase of abnormal vibration.

At idle in gear (it is an A/T), I definitely feel the virbation. But I usually put the gear to N when waiting at the red light. In N, there are still some vibrations coming from the front but is a lot less. Definitely, when put it in D at stop, the vibration is very obvious compare to new cars that you don't feel any vibrations when put in D while stop.

When it rides over bumps (such as rail road tracks), definitely it gives me a "something is loose" feeling but overall, this "feeling" has been about the same at least for the past 6-7 years.

I usually do the brakes myself. The discs were replaced with advanced auto disc but it was a while ago. But again, the virbation is not like coming from the unbalaned wheel.

I did look up the cost of some of the parts and read posts about changing them. I know LCA bushings need to be pressed in/out. I'm not sure about struts because I have never replaced one. I know I need the spring compressor and the job sounds kind of dangerous (possible the spring break off the compression tool and can hit me etc). Then the radius rods and the bushing to me is like a mistery (don't think other cars use this design). So, I'm pretty much lost here.

When I went to the tire shop about 10,000 miles ago for a new pair of front tires. I saw three mechanics checking and revving the engine and were talking about something like broken motor mount (amount themselves, not talking to me). So, I think this may be something I need to look into first, right ??? Almost forgot to mention, the motor mounts were changed by a mechanic long time ago - over 120-130k (maybe even 140k) miles ago as long as I can remember. I still have the receipt for the motor mount change but the mechanic didn't record the mileage when he changed it. It was dated 1/24/95 !!! He put $38.66 for parts cost so I doubt if all the three rubbers were replaced. I remember after he changed them, I felt less vibrations when idling.

Also, is there a thread or how to for changing motor mount? I have search and don't see one. Nor the FSM mention changing them. The FSM only talks about removing the engine. Is it an easy job? Should I replace all three of them (front, left side and rear) ? I looked around the price and seems like rockauto is the cheapest but I have bad experience with them selling me a part listed for my car (but it turned out isn't) and they refuse to take full responsibility. Has anyone used the mounts from them before ? I know there may be better mounts out there but I need to be very cost conscious at this time.

Thanks and sorry for long post. -AC

AC439:

The railway tracks something loose feeling on my 89LX was the lower control arm bushings. The inner ones were both completely shot. Yes they must be pressed in and out with a hydraulic press. My employer just happens to have one that came in very handy for the bushing replacement. As I said previously you will have to go methodically through the process of replacing most if not all the engine and suspension rubber mounts and bushings in the front end of your car. While you are replacing all of those degraded rubber things a new set of shocks wouldn't hurt. Yes a spring compressor is required for this job, or a friend who works for a local auto dealership to do the shock changeover is also a nice perk.

What you should start with in the replacement department is the lingering question? Take a few things apart in the front suspension and see if a more detailed inspection reveals any anomalies beyond what the 3&9 and 6&12 shake test revealed. It will cost you nothing but time, but will be time well spent. It's a cheaper approach than loading the parts cannon and firing every replaceable front end part at the car at once. Replace only that which requires replacement and hopefully your vibration disappears.

I would only go with honda motor mounts. Most of the rest of that junk is made in china. Procedure is fairly simple and can be done without a engine hoist if need be. Be sure to tighten the mounts in the order prescribed in the shop manual.

Does the vibration at 75 increase when in a turn?

(edit: holy shit this is a huge reply. if you can make it through the whole thing, I think there's some useful stuff in here.)

I'm with car6289 on this. BTW, welcome to the board Car. You seem to really know your stuff in this department, so please stick around.

AC --> As Car mentioned, if you packed that upper mount (dog-bone), you basically created a solid mount. What this means is that instead of the mount absorbing engine/tranny vibrations, they're being transferred through it right to the mounting point on the firewall.

You also mentioned that you have not yet changed out the shocks, while it does seem that you've had the car for some time, and have some 130+K miles on it. That tells me that those shocks have at least that for mileage on them. Couple the mileage with their age, and you've got recipe for replacement on those. Those are very likely a culprit for some of this loose feeling. Not so much just the shock, but the little biscuit bushings in the top-hat of the shock. While you're right that you'll need a spring compressor, and that it can get dangerous if you don't seat the compressor correctly on the coil, swapping out shocks is a fairly easy task, and does not (usually) take very long either. A spring compressor can be rented from AutoZone for about $20 (last I checked) and once you return it, you'll be refunded the entire amount. (It's a free tool loaner program, but requires a 'deposit' to ensure you return the tool.)

Also, as car mentioned, a visual and/or 'shake' inspection can yield some answers which may help you reduce your costs up front, or at least help identify which of the worn parts to replace first. A bad ball-joint is usually very easy to spot. 90% of the time, a bad ball-joint will have a cracked rubber boot and a grease accumulation all over it (courtesy of the grease oozing out of the boot). They do not always fail the 'shake test' even if the boot is torn/cracked/leaking. The absence of grease is like an old man with arthritis. There's nothing to lube the joint, so it's metal on metal, causing a stretching of the ball-socket. Eventually that stretching will allow the ball to disengage from the socket, and (speaking from experience) that's not a good scenario.

Bad lca bushings will be easily identified by deteriorated/cracking rubber around the center sleeve. Sometimes with our cars, the bushing dies a shitty death not because the rubber is deteriorated, but because the thru bolt that holds it to the lower fork, or sub-frame, is seized up from rust, and does not allow the minor pivoting that is required for everything to work right. Another good idea is to jack the car up from the center engine cross-member (I usually put the jack's cup right on the tow hookup), then remove the nut at the end of each thru bolt and ensure that you can use a wrench/socket to spin the bold freely in the bushing. (Don't take the bolt out though, as it'll be a bitch to put back in right now.)

Engine mounts are also a fairly easy replacement task as long as you have an extra jack or the car is on jack-stands because you'll need to jack the engine up (from the oil pan, or where the tranny/engine mate). Replacing these do not require the removal of the engine, nor an engine hoist. Don't forget though, you don't just have the front, rear (dog-bone) and side, you also have a lower rear (two separate pieces) and lower center. If I'm not mistaken, some auto's (don't quote me on this though) also had a side mount as well.

The radius rod bushings are massive rubber bushings at the end of the rod (hence radius rod) that connects the front crossmember to the lca. Those are also a 'biscuit' style bushing where the rod goes right through it and gets pancaked into the x-member by way of a big washer and nut that threads on the end of the radius rod. Be careful when/if you choose to inspect those though, as those will directly correlate to your toe adjustment, so loosening or tightening them will adjust toe. You would have to remove the nut to inspect the bushing.

There are many tests you can to do help identify the worst of the worst and go from there.

Finally you mentioned that you've done the diy way of alignment, and while a good eye can get it damn close, if not perfect, IMO there's still nothing better than a computerized alignment at a good shop. In many cases, the tech will be more then willing to let you in the shop and show you how/where all adjustments are made, and how each effects what (toe, camber, track, etc.).

What tires/wheels are you on right now?

Thanks a bunch ! You guys rock !!!!!

(1) I think I will have to revisit the 3-9 & 12-6 shaking test again.

(2) The vibration does not seem to increase in a turn while driving at 75mph, at least for most part the road is pretty straight. There are some curves on my daily commute route but at 75mph, those curves are still relatively straight. I probably won't make a sharp turn if I'm going this fast !

(3) I'm pretty sure the lower ball joints are bad though shake test didn't review it (but I'll check again tomorrow). Definitely the grease boots are broken.

(4) For the radius rod, I expect adjusting it will change the toe because shortening it will pull the LCA forward and vise versa.

(5) I think I have identified all the engine mounts. When I checked the front mount earlier, I noticed it is like compressed or collapsed. When I look at a picture of it from advance auto or autozone, it looks taller but mine seems shorter. I briefly measured my front mount from bottom plate to the top flat surface is a little shy of 3 inches. I know it is hydraulic so I think maybe it has broken already and all fluid has leaken out. I think maybe I should take it out and inspect it to be sure ?

(6) I'm really pissed with the alignment shops. 4 out of 5 times the alignment did not done right. For example, they never center the steering wheel, they only adjust one side of the tie-rod for toe so the toe can be right but the steering wheel off. I always have to hand adjust afterwards if they didn't center the steering wheel and I'm always able to center it perfectly after 3 trials. I know the computer should be more accurate but the human errors (careless) involved can more than able to offset the benefits of the computer alignment. I also think I should have good ball joints and bushings before worth taken the car for a computer alignment. When I do hand alignment on driveway, I measure everything at least 3 times, with the car roll back and forth and bounce the struts and always have consistent measurement.

(7) The wheels are original 13" with 185/70R13 tires.

I'm going to take some pictures of the parts and post them here. Thanks again !

-AC

I was just talking about a gradual turn or bend in the road. When I've experienced bad wheel bearings they've always made more noise/vibration while turning, especially in the direction of the problematic side.

I've found that you need to specify that the steering wheel be centered when turning your car over to those places. It doesn't cost any extra, just lets the mechanic know that he needs to make adjustments to both sides.

If you wrapped the dogbone, you're going to notice substantially more vibrations. From what I've noticed it's there mostly to protect the other mounts under load. Even with new bushings it should have some play in it.

Definitely understood you were asking about gradual turns. Yeah, I have specified centered steering wheel before, but still, you know, there are some people can do a more detail oriented job but some aren't.

The wrapping of the dog bone is what recommended by other members after I posted that I noted there are play on the engine side. So, I gave it a try and see what is the difference. But due to the other worn or loosen parts/bushings, I have been unable to tell the difference. I do think the play there are by design, especially when I looked at the shape of the bushing. It seems to me the design is to give some slack and cushion when the engine twists. So, I may just go and unwrap it.

wellif the front mount dosnt look right, replace it just to be sure
only takes 10mins with minimal tools so is easy as
that would cause vibes, especially under load, like sitting at the lights in drive.
they arnt all that expensive so is prob not a bad place to start

oh, forgot to mention, replacing shit motor mounts will also help reduce the stress on the flex/bellows section of your exhaust. Those are guaranteed to go way faster when you have shot mounts.

If the boots are ripped on your lower ball joints, then yes, I would replace them asap. Those don't get half the socket pull that the UCA's on the rear do, but would definitely affect the stability of the front end, and directly relate to added vibrations. I'm still putting money on the shocks and top-hat bushings being garbage and causing some vibrations too. The radius bushings are usually among the last to go just because there's a ton of rubber there that would have to deteriorate before you notice much play. ...and yes, the radius rod does adjust toe.

I think I have found more problems with the car.

So, I went to the car this morning checking around the mounts and thinking maybe jacking it up to take some pictures. I remembered I put 1/2 can of seafoam into the fuel tank few days ago and might as well put the rest of 1/2 can into the engine via the brake suction line to finish it up. So I put it in via the brake suction line.

Upon restarted the engine after 15 mins, of course I saw the typical big smoke coming out from the tail pipe. But I also noticed some white smoke coming from the exhaust manifold area ! Definitely some exhaust leak there.

So, I don't know if should I carry on with it. It seems like I have one thing to fix after another. I think I'm in a downward spiral with the car.:confused::sad2:

no no, no downward spiral. Just keep reminding yourself, any of this cash you're putting in does not compare to a monthly car payment on a newer car that's not going to handle increasing mileage as well as the 3G.

If the smoke was coming from the exhaust manifold, take this opportunity to think about not just replacing the gaskets, but kill a few birds with one stone and get a header. Even a pacesetter will cost you only about $200 plus a can of high-heat spray paint, and aircraft paint stripper (the black paint they come with is garbage, and should be removed, then repainted with good paint to keep it from rusting out).

That will net you a full replacement of the existing cast iron manifold, B-Pipe, flex (trouble spot) and everything else right up to the cat.

So does your car still run strong? Do you do regular oil changes? Ever notice any milk (oil/water mix) in the drain pan when you change the oil? I'm just trying to get an idea of why you fog / foam the motor.

Here's the overall condition and history of the car:-

I bought the car on 9/30/1993, when it had 101k miles on it, very nice and clean back then. I have been changing oil every 3-4k miles myself and keep a log. I always use Castro 10w-30 oil. I also change the A/T tranny oil using only original Honda ATF. Never have a problem with the tranny. The car does have a bunch of things needed to be fix that can be costy including a much needed paint job and a cracked front windshield. Two power door locks actuators needed to be replaced as well. The power antenna does not work but the sunroof still works. All power windows work although I had to run extra wires to the door because somewhere along the line, there must be a contact corrosion that made the windows go up and down very slow.

Other than the paint job, the body does have some minimum rusting at a few spots. I have upgraded the headlight to better Silvania seal beams and put a relay in the circuit to gain max brightness (getting older now and eyes aren't as good as before while driving at night). I put a reman a/c pump 3 years ago and converted it to R134a and have the high pressure hose repair. A/C is running fine with the conversion. New radiator put in 2 years ago. Need to replace the water pump (leaking and I already have the pump). Pretty much everything else is stock.

The problem with the paint is a good paint job with fixing the rust is probably going to cost a fortune. The exterior look of the car will definitely stop me from driving the kids to school or park close to an entrance of anything where people will see it.

So, what do you guys think? Still a keeper?

abso-friggin-lutely.

It just needs a lil TLC, but the fact that you've had it for nearly 16 years, and know every last little detail about it's maintenance history, is priceless. If it's just a DD and you're not trying to win any awards for it's paint, there are plenty of shops out there (I don't fully endorse Maaco, but it's a cheap decent paint job for the money [I can give you some pointers about getting the best job out of them without spending any more money]).

How many miles on it now?

As of today, the car has 257,923.x miles on it. The car was painted by Maaco before after a very minor accident. They changed out the engine hood and the left headlight. The paint now is definitely terrible and peeling off the engine hood. Please let me know how I can get the best of Maaco.

I'm also thinking about the DIY paint job (the procedure that says thin out the paint, using roller to apply 5-6 coats, sand and buff between each coat). I went to Home depot and Lowes few times, checked out the Rustroleum but their color choice is poor and the charcoal grey is the closest to my car's color.

Oh, forgot to answer about the oil. I don't see any "milk" when I change the oil so I think the head gasket is fine. I seafoam'ed it because I have heard enough about it so I want to try it and see what I can get out of it. The half can of seafoam in fuel helps and I can feel some increase in smoothness. I will be going to work in a few minutes and I will see if the 2nd part of seaform helps the car further.

Ok...Drove the car to work then back home. Really didn't notice much difference after the seafoam treatment sucked via the brake booster line. This may indicate the engine is in good shape and clean.

Now, back to the problems. I did the 3-9 and 12-6 shaking test again and confirmed no play. I was trying to take pics but didn't feel like getting there yet since I worked last night and now kind of feeling fussy. Thinking I have to work two nights again (Sun/Mon) I just have to delay it till mid week. Definitely the lower ball joint boots are cracked. I have also noticed the piece of rubber at the very middle bottom of the engine sitting on the beam seems to be compressed. I think if the front engine mount is shot and compressed, it will then compress the middle bottom one as well. I remember I noticed wet and oily around the base of the front mount a while ago and I was wondering where those oil coming from.

About the exhaust leak, I have more problems. On the exhaust manifold, two nut/bolts broke off from the engine block !!! They are the left and the right most bolts. So for both the exhaust gaskets for cyl 1 and 4 there is only one bolt each side to hold it in place ! This is really getting intense for me and I'm not sure if I can ever handle it.

I'm really sorry for the all the posts and the other problems are definitely not under suspension category. But I found these problems as I troubleshoot the vibrations. :crying:

-AC

no worries about proper section, we're still trying to identify the cause of the vibrations... (now we just have a few other things to address).

So as for those bolts/nuts. Should I assume someone did something recently like a head gasket, or exhaust manifold gasket? Those don't just break off on their own. Have you had the timing belt done since you bought the car? Did they do a head gasket as well? If so, I'm guessing that's when the studs/nuts broke off and they just used a red gasket goo on the regular gasket, and now it's given up which is why you're noticing the leak.

That's just a guess there though.

In all honesty, that too is not a big deal at all. Those studs just screw out of the head. Are they snapped or just missing all together? To put it into perspective, think of all the guys on this board, and any other car owners that install headers on their cars? ...or replace head gaskets? In either case, the head is fully exposed without the exhaust manifold attached.

Anyway, back to the motor mounts... Yes, it does look like your front mount is shot as it's leaking fluid. This will cause the rest of the mounts to go as well, given that the front is no longer suspending the motor in the proper position. I would consider replacing all of them at some point sooner or later. The good part is that shot mounts will only really affect some idle vibrations, and that damn b-pipe (exhaust) at the flex point. Those can wait, as can the exhaust leak. Is there a noticeable sound from the area of the exhaust leak? If not, don't worry about that just yet.

It's all about priorities first, then take care of the other parts that fall under the general and preventative maintenance category.

See you have to look at the alternatives. I know it may seem a little overwhelming to look at the list of things that need to be done, but the cost of all these still amount to a fraction of what it would cost for you to buy another used car and remember that if you were to do that, you'd still be inheriting another persons problems as well. Either that, or you get a much newer car, and have to incur a monthly car payment (and I personally hate submitting the $450 monthly payments for my cars that I'm putting buckets of miles on right now).

Keep your head up, nothing mentioned here is all that difficult. Time consuming maybe; but difficult; not really.

Thanks for reply. I just checked the broken studs by sticking a small screwdriver into the mounting holes of the exhaust header and they both broke off flushing the head. Therefore, it is absolutely impossible to use a vice grip or something to get the remaining studs out of the engine block.

The car has not been worked on by any mechanic (except tires and wheel balancing) for a long time, at least for the past 60k miles. The timing belt has been changed twice at 120k and 190k miles by mechanics. Now i'm afraid the studs broke due to the bad front engine mount. The head gasket has never been changed or work on. The head has never been taken off from the engine. I don't think I can handle taking off the head.

Also, I don't have many sophisticated tools for repair. Regular typical tools I do have. I have an electric impact wrench. That's all. I thought of the LCA ball joints but I don't have a press for the bushings so the new LCA with ball joints and bushings in will probably cost me $100 a piece.

Anyway, I think the next thing I'd do is the engine mount and see what happen.

A shot mount won't cause those studs to break. I can't think of any reason other than someone over tightening the nut, or even trying to back it off when the nut was seized on. There was probably some gasket goo on with the regular gasket, and you didn't notice the broken studs until now. Again, that's not a big deal at all.

Honestly, I would do the lca's before I did the mounts. The mounts are going to cost you a pretty penny too.

Autozone has the lower ball joint for 38.99 (Duralast, Lifetime Warranty) and Majestic Honda (www.hondaautomotiveparts.com) has it for 46.67 (link. When I brought mine to a shop to have them pressed in, they charged me $20 each. ...but you can also get a ball-joint press from Autozone (free rental thing I mentioned before) which looks like a giant C-clamp with a bunch of dies for the different sizes of ball-joints.

So it's a safe bet to say it'll be between 100-200 beans. Add another $14 to that and buy yourself a pitman arm puller to use for popping the upper control arm ball-joint from the top of the knuckles. That's a much better tool to use than the pickle-fork as there's a much less chance of destroying the boots in the process of taking everything apart.