Finally decided I'm going all motor

Like the title says I've decided to build the old a20 all motor but I want some opinions on sizes etc. So here it goes. I plan on boring the block out for some gsr pistons. I need what size I need to bore to. Also I plan on getting a new head with port and polish and oversized valves. I know others have done oversized valves and such and wanted to know what sizes to get done. I'll be using a edelbrock victor x intake manifold and a full 2.5 custom exhaust mated to some pacesetters. Maybe megasquirt as well but I need to Learn more about the concept of it. So if anyone has any reccomendations, advice, and experience just throw it in. I'm open right now and want to get my shopping list together before I start tearing down and building. Thx ahead of time guys.

If you go with the bisimoto springs, cam, and cam gear you can make some pretty good numbers with just those parts.

First I would do what RAZR said.

I've already picked up the cam gear, and springs from bisi. as for the overbore, ours is 82.7mm and what I think is common is the 83mm bore to the B18 pistons. *which is what I plan to do* if I remember right the biggest anyone might have gone 84mm. *which leaves very little wall if I remember right*

Also bisi does custom pistons as well. I think it was around 600$ for there's though.
As for the headers, I don't like the pacesetters personally. I would suggest the OBX, but it seems there are some who have had issues with those as well. As for the intake mani, I'm assuming B16 conversion.

Plus I would suggest larger injectors, OBD1 Conversion, Port and Polish, and battery relocation so you can put a nice CAI in there.

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Originally Posted by rjudgey

Well the seats have 3 angle cuts from stock, but the valves only have a single angle backcut , so i'd just get a machinist to back cut the valves and if the stock seats are in good shape just give em a tiny lap with some fine paste and just for a twist or two no more than that! The rest you can do yourself with a dremel and some sanding drums, i would say get some SI valves for the exhaust and have them converted into inlet valves and running a larger size say 32mm and have the seats cut accordingly but if your shop doesn't do P&P sounds like they would do a very bad job of cutting valves and seats.

If your after a ghetto head job do what i advise with the valves if you can find a lathe you can do this yourself with a grinding stone on the lathe. you can use a marker pen to show how far you want to cut the valve head back to match the valve seat allready cut by honda.

Then when the valves are done, just get a dremel and some sanding drums then smooth out the inside throat of the ports so that they blend in and match the internal diameter of the valve seats, then with the inlet port mouths all you have to do is shape the outside edge of them so that they open up like little trumpets so that they go all the way outside of the ports on the let manifold this helps reduce gas inversion and also makes it easier for the gas to flow into the ports more efficiently, for the exhaust ports these just need to be made nice and smooth and shiny, and same for the combustion chambers, if ou have some old valves put these in the seats and then use a tungsten small tipped tool and blend in the machined edge around the seats do that there is a smooth transition between the seat and the camber roof any edge here critically effects cylinder filling so it's good to get rid of this, same for any edges around the valves from the walls of the chambers reducing these and smoothing down the extreme edges helps greatly. The reduction in CR ratio is worth the increase in flow which gives you way more power. Make sure your valve guides are in good shape if not get them K lined with bronze sleeves or have new ones fitted but if you do this you'll have to have the seats cut again or they might not seat properly on the valves. hopefully there reasonably tight and you won't have to do this. Then have the head skimmed to make sure it's flat and have .5mm taken off to increase your CR ratio you can go as far as 1mm but you'll only have 1 or 2 more skims left after that. Up to you really. If you really want to have it perfect then just make sure the rest of the inlet ports have all the casting marks removed with the dremel and that the finish is even all round with a swirl like pattern on all the walls in the ports. Make thing is to make sure your very thorough and have a keen eye to detail as well as a steady hand! When finished make sure everything is stripped down and you get it washed out thoroughly and chemical cleaned don't want any dirt or bits of ally floating around inside when you bolt it back together again! Oh one last thing get the head surface skimmed after you done all the work that way you won't damage the surface when you get it back and also you need to de chamfer the edges around the chambers as they'll be razor sharp and will cause detonation in the chambers a good machine shop should do this when they skim the head but a lot of them don't bother.

Hope this helps my little guide to a ghetto head job!! BTW this if done by yourself well will save you $4-600 and be just as good if not better than equivalent head job from a so called specialist!!

well i do. What head work will yeild the best gains/most effencent money wise, a port matching or a 3 angle valve job? My local shops dont do P&P and i dont feel like shipping the head off....

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double post ftl

Since you're fuel injected and doing major headwork, some sort of tunable engine management (megasquirt or obd-1) is going to be mandatory.

that too

Yea thats what I figured but idk much about megasquirt so I need to learn more about it first

rjudgeys posts ftw

its alot easier and cheaper to go fast with boost, but if you really must stick NA listen to rich, he is about it when it comes to a20/a18 all motor performance.


just remember, NA stands for NOT ACCEPTABLE

i wouldn't waste the money on bisi parts. there are 200hp a20s on here w/out using his parts. great bling stuff; but really not needed. its all about getting these things to breath. lots of head work. their are plenty of cam options out there. i do believe i remember someone saying that the a18 springs were stronger

^^ bisi isnt bling sir. Bisi is top of the line R&D stuff. He loves na builds if u havent noticed from his drag cars and wut not. I do plan on using his parts when i have the funds cuz well, they are good. once you get his springs and if u do a p&p u can rev up to 14,000rpm if u think ur block can handle it.

But id bore + build the block for sure, raise the comp, P&p, bigger valves, bisi springs, a cam designed for the powerband u want, and prob go standalone.

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Originally Posted by A18A

rjudgeys posts ftw

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it was a pm ;)

have you considered trying the Gude head package? they build some serious stuff, if I wasn't already running the dual carb setup I would consider this as a start on an all motor build. http://www.andysautosport.com/honda/...e_performance/

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Originally Posted by lostforawhile

have you considered trying the Gude head package? they build some serious stuff, if I wasn't already running the dual carb setup I would consider this as a start on an all motor build. http://www.andysautosport.com/honda/...e_performance/

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Your welcome ;)

Lol for 1450 no I havent... Im not trying to push 200+ or anything I jus want a nice mild but respectable DD. I was thinking more like 150 to 160 would be great for what I'm looking for. My budget is somewhere around 1000 to 1500 and this will be done slowly over time. I'm still lost as far as what I want to run programming wise. I don't know all my options and the ones I do know about I know very little on what I need how to do it etc. But that's why I started this early so I have time go gather funds, make full plans and execute nicely. Of course I'll be doing the 5 swap with it but as of know planning is a huge step. Im starting to tear down tomorrow and then I'll begin cleaning the block, selling my old head to someone who knows how to do the thread inserts and needs a head. Then I'm going to buy a brand new one and build it fresh. Also going to do suspension as well. But that's another story another day.

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Originally Posted by lostforawhile

have you considered trying the Gude head package? they build some serious stuff, if I wasn't already running the dual carb setup I would consider this as a start on an all motor build. http://www.andysautosport.com/honda/...e_performance/

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why do they show a dual cam setup in the picture?

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Originally Posted by Tdurr

^^ bisi isnt bling sir. Bisi is top of the line R&D stuff. He loves na builds if u havent noticed from his drag cars and wut not. I do plan on using his parts when i have the funds cuz well, they are good. once you get his springs and if u do a p&p u can rev up to 14,000rpm if u think ur block can handle it.

But id bore + build the block for sure, raise the comp, P&p, bigger valves, bisi springs, a cam designed for the powerband u want, and prob go standalone.

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still way to costly; and i doubt 88lxishortram is looking to run his motor at 14k rpm. bisi has great shit but it is not needed unless goin all out track. other than that it's just bling to brag about imo

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Originally Posted by Pico

why do they show a dual cam setup in the picture?

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thats a good question, unless there are two different cams and it's a mistake in the picture, as far as the bisi stuff, a good set of springs and a cam are a good base to build from, a set of their springs are cheaper then replacing the factory springs with OEM ones, and if you build a motor, do you really want a set of springs with over 100000 miles on them? they wear out,no matter who makes them, as they wear they get weaker, they have a finite life, they may still work but not like a new set

The only bisi stuff I would buy is the gear springs and cam... Maybe not the gear buti like the adjustability and the sext bright orange :) o and if you guys don't mind throwing around some program ideas and concepts that would be great. Cheaper is better but I want dependable and worth working with but just throw some idea around if Yal can

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Originally Posted by 88lxi-shortram

The only bisi stuff I would buy is the gear springs and cam... Maybe not the gear buti like the adjustability and the sext bright orange :) o and if you guys don't mind throwing around some program ideas and concepts that would be great. Cheaper is better but I want dependable and worth working with but just throw some idea around if Yal can

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I still think the gude set is worth the money, that includes all the head work, the cam matched to it, reprogrammed ecu, the entire package, it would be hard to have that kind of head work done for the money, let alone a full setup, i'll be following this thread as I'm doing all motor too

honstly just a solid stock rebuild and possibly a small +10 bore over and head work and u can hit the 150mark with a tune imo. the biggest prob with our cars as far as i know is the head flow.

and if u think $1500 is too much then u just wanna do a cam, I/H/E, and a tune then. cheapest non expensive "build" as long as u have good compression.

if you are going to build a wicked NA motor, decide what you want now before you even get the tools out.
big hp in a 2 liter NA motor without variable valve timing = pig to drive anywhere bar the highway or race track.
with an a20 i'd aim at 150 whp which should be obtainable on a good standard rebuild with a minor comp increase,mild cam and good exhaust.
using a good ecu will make it much nicer to tune and drive as well.

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Originally Posted by lostforawhile

thats a good question, unless there are two different cams and it's a mistake in the picture, as far as the bisi stuff, a good set of springs and a cam are a good base to build from, a set of their springs are cheaper then replacing the factory springs with OEM ones, and if you build a motor, do you really want a set of springs with over 100000 miles on them? they wear out,no matter who makes them, as they wear they get weaker, they have a finite life, they may still work but not like a new set

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http://www.gude.com/Head/hp.htm#accord

Its just a default picture. its the only one I bet andy's could find since its the only one on the gude website. :P

This thread fell flat on it's face as it went from "all out" to, I want a dd and I only have a small budget.

Also, the head would crack long before it reached 14k rpm :)

i have a similar idea with going all motor, but i as well have the hatch for a DD so im trying to find the right balance between both worlds.

i was thinking of ordering a better cam from bisi, cam gear and valve springs. In addition to adding a basic intake and header i think i may be able to find that right balance, i do enjoy that my car gets over 30 mpg on average. I think also swapping over to OBD-1 and tweaking the fuel mapping may help also.

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Originally Posted by AccordEpicenter

its alot easier and cheaper to go fast with boost, but if you really must stick NA listen to rich, he is about it when it comes to a20/a18 all motor performance.


just remember, NA stands for NOT ACCEPTABLE

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Not Applicable :)


And as for the 14k comments...

The springs were tested up to 14k. Nothing else. Get your A20 past 9k and then we'll talk lol.

^^^ lol damn ill get an a20 to 10k just for that. let me get this job and ill do it for u guys :P

but bewst >na
and high comp+bewst>low comp + bewst

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Originally Posted by 87roach

This thread fell flat on it's face as it went from "all out" to, I want a dd and I only have a small budget.

Also, the head would crack long before it reached 14k rpm :)

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I'm thinking the rods would leave in all directions long before 14K rpm..

find a B20a , look around and stay on it you will find one because they are out there still to be had

idk about a b20 man... theyre so hard to find and i kind of love the a20 :) with all the work ive been doing to my car ive practillay learned this motor front to back. now its my turn to learn from the inside out.i didnt think i could make 160 with just cams, gears etc.... i may be aiming a little higher. like i said yet idk exactly whts going to happen yet so im testing waters to get an idea for what to do. but anyways this isnt going to be an allout build so dont get super excited but when i start this those of you who have kept up with me and what ive learned and the progress ive made will understand why this is such a big deal to me. this will be my first n/a build so well see how this goes

Yeah 1-1.5k spending mark is a little off..thats what i was going for too lol...and with not too many performance parts im already over the 2k mark i believe.

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Originally Posted by 88lxi-shortram

idk about a b20 man... theyre so hard to find and i kind of love the a20 :) with all the work ive been doing to my car ive practillay learned this motor front to back. now its my turn to learn from the inside out.i didnt think i could make 160 with just cams, gears etc.... i may be aiming a little higher. like i said yet idk exactly whts going to happen yet so im testing waters to get an idea for what to do. but anyways this isnt going to be an allout build so dont get super excited but when i start this those of you who have kept up with me and what ive learned and the progress ive made will understand why this is such a big deal to me. this will be my first n/a build so well see how this goes

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absolutley, very well stated
also I went out last night and tried to find the place that had a couple up on CL last summer when I didnt have the money to get, couldnt find it again, but they had a gold top and a black top with trannys , auto I think if I remember right but hell I enjoy mine with an auto regardless its alot more power than my lxi a20 auto. If I ever get around to rebuilding the suspension I will come up there for a Ga meet. Its a DD now but im pretty ashamed of all the popping and floating:(
For all motor, you need the good cam and at least get a good valve job if you dont want to pay for oversize. Bisi valve springs so you can take advantage of the last later power band of a performance cam. Go midrange with the cam if your using it for DD. Tweeking the timing and fuel delivery takes care of the rest. You should be able to get 150 which is oodles of fun in that light car.
You can make more progress if you get another low mileage engine from the JYard and go thru it, sometimes you can find those that need nothing on the bottom end. Knowledge is cost savings.
Look a some of the dyno for a20 that have been modified, the HP is not always up there at 145000, LMAO right. 150-175 can be had in the redline range im pretty certain. :D

What are you goin to do for Suspension? I may be getting full bodies soon and I obviouusly won't need the stock stuff... So if you want stock stuff I'll give you mine if you wait a little while

yeah man...the A20 is not cheap to make fast....just turbo that stock motor and make like 200whp...ericw made 240 on a carb engine, obd1 swap and a really good tune

just put a b series in it

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Originally Posted by DOPEY

just put a b series in it

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Well thats the Kinda Easy way, They made B Series mounts for our cars but there EXTREMELY hard to find, OR theres Being unique and building a motor that there aren't millions of already built

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Originally Posted by DOPEY

just put a b series in it

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Thats everyones solution. Keep the A20; these are great little engines that are very unique compared to any other honda engine i've ever drove. These things rev up quick and can be pushed well over redline just in stock form(w/300,000+ miles). These things are pretty bulletproof. The Bseries has a ton of potential but its been done way too many times in just about every honda out there. If you were at baller status i'd say go K or J just because it hasn't been done and would make your car even more unique; but that would be hella expensive

To me it is all about being different. Yea it's nice to know you have vtec but when every civic in the world practically has one now it would make me feel better to outrun someone with a b swap with a build sohc non vtec motor. Plus I want to make the decal and saying "built not bought" mean something

reving to 14000 might not mean ur making power up there but if ur racing(track) you can stay in gear longer through a turn and shift and land in the middle of your powerband. ;) thats the real advantages of high revving motors.

but yea a20s are sweet. u wont be able to made a mild "built" motor for 2k. just isnt possible unless u got some hookups. ask luke haha

lol yea that was kind of an estimate but i will be drawing this out over time. i want to build and everything but the car itself needs a little bit of love to. so ill be doing my suspension stuff first and while i start the build ill be doing body work and paint... sound like a plan guys?

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Originally Posted by 88lxi-shortram

To me it is all about being different. Yea it's nice to know you have vtec but when every civic in the world practically has one now it would make me feel better to outrun someone with a b swap with a build sohc non vtec motor. Plus I want to make the decal and saying "built not bought" mean something

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being different will cost you money and headaches...i tell you this after i dumped 3k on a b20 that will never run due to shady shops and a "unique engine"


il tell you this...if i had 3k right now i would of had at least a b18 or gsr...i owned a 164whp machine and trust me these cars are fun with a little more hp.

Idk alot of my friend are telling me to b swap too. But going to import alliance and seeing hundreds of b swaps kinda turned me away. But if it's Gina cost me so much to build the A then I may plan on a swap... Still unsure and uneasy but I do have a b16 sitting in my garage so idk

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Originally Posted by 88lxi-shortram

Idk alot of my friend are telling me to b swap too. But going to import alliance and seeing hundreds of b swaps kinda turned me away. But if it's Gina cost me so much to build the A then I may plan on a swap... Still unsure and uneasy but I do have a b16 sitting in my garage so idk

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A's are tough no reason you can't get some decent power with them, it just takes work, at least you have more displacement then most of the civics, A built A will stand out in a sea of civics, most of those guys probably don't even know what one is, these are old school cars, they deserve cool old school power, I know when mine is done it's going to blow some peoples minds, it will be worth the time off the road and the countless hours I've put into it

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Originally Posted by 88lxi-shortram

Idk alot of my friend are telling me to b swap too. But going to import alliance and seeing hundreds of b swaps kinda turned me away. But if it's Gina cost me so much to build the A then I may plan on a swap... Still unsure and uneasy but I do have a b16 sitting in my garage so idk

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b16 can make some power...my friend owns a ek with a CTR engine...all i can say is that once you hit around 9k you are moving...we raced a evo and it was a blast on how fast it got

UGH!!!! fuck it lol im buying another 3gee to do a b swap and then build the a for the other lol

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Originally Posted by 88lxi-shortram

UGH!!!! fuck it lol im buying another 3gee to do a b swap and then build the a for the other lol

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haha...that was my plan too...something classic and modern at the same time

if you are going to put a b in one, do it right and use the proper b20a. there are still a few around , and half the ricer racers wouldnt know what one is.
the grand daddy of the b series!
makes b16a hp with a shit load more torque.

Haha love it NA mean not acceptable think that's been my motto since day one each time i rebuild an old engine and increase it's power a bit more each time one day it might be acceptable!!
$1500 isn't going to do much, if you are a good at mechanics then I would check out the original block, see what the compression is etc. if pretty healthy, just concentrate on head work, skimming, cleaning all the ports up etc. No offence to Bisi but the springs are over kill for anything under 200bhp and less than 8k rpm, all my engines have never had anything less than stock parts, yes they've been balanced, polished, shot peened in some cases but they've all been stock. And they have all made very reliable 7.5-8k rpm engines pulling 200bhp at the flywheel with incredible pickup and excellent midrange power and decent low end still so they are driveable on road still. Next engine I'm working on is beyond stock parts will be looking at achieving 240-250bhp and will be using Bisi springs, wilder cam with more lift, stronger lighter rods, forged larger pistons etc. but won't be for a little while, working on a B20A project and I still have a little stock trick up my sleeve for the A20 block yet anyway! Oh forget to mention all this was done on a stock cast manifold and crappy made 2 way downpipe to a crapp made exhaust system, bit better than stock but no where near as nice as the exhaust on my BMW and my other Red lude. When i get round to having the manifold made and the exhaust system done in mandrel bent 2.5" this engine will be spitting fire and will easily increase torque and BHP hugely especialy at the top end and will most likely increase the rpm band and limit.

So don't skimp on exhaust header and system, thats a good start and you'll spend most your budget there, then concentrate on inlet, camshaft, some basic head work, and then some kind of ECU tuning.

the tune is going to be really important. i was looking up k swaps but just hondata kpro cost around 1500 bucks because that engine can be fine tuned...i was at the dyno meet and one made 190whp...amazing for a 2.0 engine

sir, i need to talk to you about some things lol. i wanna learn all u know!
edit: to rjudgey

Lol when are you flying over then?

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