https://jalopnik.com/honda-has-a-306...r-i-1819975856
OMG someone HAS to do this!!! Mostly me!! LOL
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https://jalopnik.com/honda-has-a-306...r-i-1819975856
OMG someone HAS to do this!!! Mostly me!! LOL
Lol fuuuudge that. Too pricey, too much modification. Stick with rebuilding your original block and putting custom stuff on that. ITB’s, dry sump, balancing the rotating assembly, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Snooz
But if a rich boy has the time and money, do it! It’d definitely be awesome to see.
People think nothing of spending $20k+ for a car, but then squeak and honk if their old car needs $2k in repairs. I wonder at that logic. I'd rather spend $20k on an old car that I really love and have it awesome when I'm done. I figure that the longer I keep the old car running, the longer I can avoid dealing with a new car. I can't stand the new cars. I can't see out of them. They blink and beep and decide when I can change lanes or when I should be braking. They're ponderous and slow and hard to thread through traffic. They have spy boxes and Bluetooth and a bunch of crap to go haywire.
No thanks. I'll drop coin on my old cars.
It's nice to see Honda finally paying attention to the tuner and classic car owners. They've treated us so shabbily. I've said it before, I can buy 27 different crate engines directly from GM and have been able to for quite a few years now. Until now, I couldn't get bupkiss from Honda for anything more than 10 years old. This is good. I hope they continue on this path.
I hope they pump out a bunch of built es2’s with beefed up transmissions putting out 120hp for $4k a popQuote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Snooz
Preach brother. Fucking preach it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Snooz
I HATED the '13 Focus I had. Only reason I bought it was cause I had my first kid on the way and I had an '87 CRX at the time. Wife demanded I get a "family" car. Within a year, both front window motors went out (Yet my '89 Accord ones still crank like a champ). The heater in it was garbage. 160HP engine but the damn car was so heavy cause of all the fancy shit it was slow slow slow. It had THE WORST blindspot view. It was a test of nerves everytime I wanted to switch lanes cause you couldn't see your blindspot at all. Had to put in an aftermarket rear sway bar cause the stock one was so weak. Had to put in a silicone insert on the lower engine mount cause the damn thing engine hopped so bad.
I get so much shit cause I've basically dropped about 4k so far into the Accord of which I paid 400$ for. Yet, I have more fun with this car and am doing things I've wanted to do for years. I'm learning a ton in the process.
I put my car into a car show we had at work last week and got so many compliments about it. It's rusty, it has dents all over, paint is faded down to the primer in places. But when people saw under the hood and I got into conversations with the other car owners about the work I have done MYSELF, they loved it. I didn't buy it this way, I didn't spend 50k on an already built car and parade it around like I'm some sort of badass (here's looking at you STI and mustang owners). Even had one of the people who managed the show tell me if I ever got around to getting the bodywork done and painted, they would put it on a magazine cover. That was so cool and really got me hyped even more to keep working on this thing.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but fuck that struck a cord lol
Back to the subject of the tread though; I am excited to see Honda FINALLY offer things like this, even if it is just to certain groups. That shit will get leaked out eventually anyway. If they had done that in the 90's, holy balls that would've been insane.
edited cause I can't spell....
I have an 89 Suburban that I love. It's bone stock except for some 33" tires I put on. It's slow, rusty, has a driveline vibration and the AC doesn't work. Yet I walk past my '09 Silverado to drive it for everything. Everyone who sees the Suburban says "Oh, this truck is AWESOME! Can I have a ride? I need to get one of these." Nobody will even make me a reasonable offer for the Silverado. That's how it is. Old cars are magic. New cars suck.Quote:
Originally Posted by InAccordance
Here's the deal on the Type R crate engine. It's easy to stuff a fast engine into a slow car. Relatively speaking. Guys have been doing it forever. Creating a world-class, Formula 1 suspension is quite a lot harder. But we already have that in the 3g.
The Type R engine produces 300 HP. My '95 540i made 289 HP and it was breathtakingly fast. Scary fast. The Civic Type R weighs 3100 lbs. My 3g weighs 2650. The Civic has MacPherson strut suspension. My 3g has double-wishbone all around. The Civic was the fastest FWD car ever on the Nurburgring. How fast would a 3g be? The Civic costs $34k. You could build a 3g into a truly awesome car for a lot less than that.
If the engine will fit in the bay, this swap makes tons of sense. If you have to cut into shock towers or whatever, then it doesn't.
Let me put it this way. With 306 horsepower, you have a theoretical top speed of 185 MPH*. Now your $500 beater is running with $80,000 Porsches. And, you still have Honda reliability and 3g handling, which is way better than any German car out there. With some aerodynamic tweaking and bolt-on mods, you could get closer to 200 MPH, which is Ferrari territory. This is all theoretical, of course, and I'm not saying you'll build a supercar, or that you should. I'm only pointing out that your return on investment here is pretty high and makes for a very interesting car when you're done.
Put another way, when you're done, you'll have a Civic Type R. Only 400 lbs lighter, with better handling and much less expense.
*The trans gearing will redline at 160 MPH. You can nibble at that with some larger tires (to fill up wheel gap and fit the larger brakes you'll need) and see where that gets you, but getting much higher will involve custom trans work (maybe these guys? Synchrotech - Honda & Acura Transmissions). The upshot is that once you have a modern powerplant, aftermarket options open up considerably.
I went to the dealer today and poked my nose under the hood of a Type R. I asked about the crate engine and got a bunch of blank stares and shrugged shoulders. They had a dealer markup of $10k on the car that put the final price near $50k. That's getting into Porsche territory. ...For a Civic. :wtf:
Anyway, even with all the turbo hardware, there's a lot of room under the hood. There's a solid 4-5" between the back of the engine and the firewall. I didn't have a tape measure or anything, so I'm just dead reckoning here, but it looked like an easy fit inside a 3g engine bay. It did look a lot TALLER, however. The front of the new Civic is also a LOT taller than a 3g front end, so I imagine a stock hood isn't going to work.
I only took one picture:
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/q...psxylguysr.jpg
That's the passenger side engine mount. It's an extraordinary, giant, cast aluminum tower that bolts to the top of the frame rail. I can't imagine what it cost to make, but it wasn't cheap. It must be 10 inches tall. Unbelievable. The driver's mount isn't quite as tall, but it's still a costly work of art. Both sides bolt to the tops of the frame rails. I can't think of a reason why you wouldn't be able to fab your own mounts at home. It also looks like the Type R mounts are the same as the normal Civic mounts. Anyway, it seems like a do-able swap and used engines are already showing up on eBay for as little as $5500.
There's only one problem and it's a BIG one. The transmission is crap. It's got a nice, short-throw, snappy feel, but there is no Reverse lockout. Shifting through gears 1-4 is divine, but when you try to shift into 5th, the stick will miss 5th and slide over into the Reverse gate and get stuck. You're going to miss 5th gear 90% of the time when you go for it. Since the dawn of time, you've always had to push the stick DOWN to get past the Reverse lockout and into the Reverse gate, but not on this trans, apparently. It's wide open for you to slip into at any time. Hell, you could even miss 6th and slide it into Reverse if you aren't careful. Maybe the lockout is electric and the trans operates normally if you have the key on, but it looks more like colossally stupid design to me.
Good grief.
0w-20 oil... so can you run it with water as oil or what?:tongue:
Well he doesn't seem to have any trouble getting into 5th. I guess it's just me. I slammed it into the Reverse gate every time.
it might be an electrical sol. that holds it back. My Challenger has something that forces you from 1st to 4th on light throttle for MPG. 18$ dohicky by passes it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Snooz
I think going to 5th alot cost him some time I dont think the stock gearing was optimum for that track.
Nice to see Honda back in the game!
This would be a lot of money for a novelty :squint:
It won't cost $50k. I'll tell you that. And it will be a LOT cheaper than some new car that bonks and bleeps at me and I can't see out of and random crap doesn't work like it's supposed to. Like lockouts that force you to shift from 1st to 4th because some bureaucrat thought that would be nice. I'm in the process of destroying my Silverado's trans because of its cartoonishly bad design. These corporate idiots can't seem to build a proper car anymore so I'll build my own thanks. Salvage an interesting engine from a car that looks like an ugly basketball shoe and put it in a car I actually like. That sounds pretty good to me.
Of course, but I mean this engine. Swapping it is rather pointless when there is an abundance of B motors, and complete ready swaps, for cheap. Not to mention the nightmare of newer computer systems vs a tuneable OBD1.
I just got this 86 lude in July cuz I am so tired of driving the boring ass automatic 06 Civic.
You make a fair point. I'm no expert on swaps, but anything is going to be a lot of work. The K engine has pretty much everything on my new engine Christmas list: roller cam, coil on plug, aluminum block with cast iron sleeves, etc. so for me it's more compelling than a B. I'm not saying B's are bad, I just can't get excited about that swap. I'm not really looking for performance or to do a lot of tuning. I'd rather have the factory worry about all that and give me something that has a warranty. (Obviously, I'm not expecting Honda to warranty my swap, but it is a platform they do warranty in other circumstances). Also, having a factory platform that a lot of other people have will help when it comes time to troubleshoot problems.
On the flip side, the ease of troubleshooting is offset by the fact that I'll be the guy figuring out pinouts and how to make the gauge cluster work. And with all the gotcha engineering going into everything these days, I'd hate to go to all the work of a swap only to wish I'd put in an older B when it's all over.
Anyway, it's all academic at this point. I don't have any money for a swap and my A is still pretty new.
Ya, I could put my B20vtec in this 86 lude but that would counter what I want this car to be. I always regretted not doing more with the A before swapping. Keeping this the stock engine just feels right on a pristine 32yo car. As long as I can keep the original A/C and P/S going at least.
So far as dreaming goes, I want an F20B someday :D
If I had the free cash, I'd go with squeezing in a J. Thatd be fun.
I've been studying up on this a little more. That CTR is an impressive car. It *looks* like it's set up to be converted to AWD at some point, with big, beefy knuckles in the rear and a notch-out for another diff in the firewall. There is special ducting in the front grill to channel air across the front calipers, keep things cool under the hood, etc. I'm so pleased that Honda is finally stepping up with a real race car once again. It was painful to watch them give the tuner market away to Subaru in the '00s, let the NSX go stale, then kill it, etc. Here's hoping they keep stepping up.
Anyway, the engine is a direct injection setup which uses a Bosch ECU that's locked up tight and hasn't been cracked yet. The CTR has a bunch of sensors that a 3g does not, like yaw, after-cat O2 sensor and so forth, so it's HIGHLY unlikely to work in a 3g in stock configuration. I'm VERY confident that the ECU will get cracked eventually and this will all become a lot easier. I'd be curious to know what ECU they're pairing with the crate engine. I'll bet it isn't nearly as belligerent. The Ariel Atom uses the CTR engine with a different ECU, so that might be an option too.
It's a pretty big engine; much bigger than a stock K20, BUT it fits in a DA Integra with some notching. The DA is similarly proportioned to a 3g, so again, it still seems like a do-able swap.
Yeah thats the race only part, the ECU they send with it Id imagine doesnt pass emissions or any of the federal laws on ABS/traction control.
I can't imagine it coming with that... Isn't a crate motor just complete long block + accessories?
The MOPAR crates like the hellcat crate or the base 6.4l motor come that way. Not sure what Hondas is doing since they kinda make there own way. Being thats its a Bosch setup thats what most of the manufactures use.Quote:
Originally Posted by night
Mopar Performance 392 Crate HEMI Engine
Mopar 6.4L Crate Hemi Installation Kit
You can get them like that, but more recently you buy them ready to drop in. GM sells crates complete with intake, FI system, ECU, everything but the headers and accessories. Check out the RamJet 502. They'll even mate a trans with it and throw in the TCU. I can't imagine Honda selling a bare block and calling it a Type R, but who knows? At SEMA, where they announced the crate engine, they had one on the stand and it was no block. It was fully dressed. I'd be super ticked if it turned out to be a bare block. Then again, $6500 is awfully cheap for a fully dressed engine. Hmmmm. At any rate, the salvage Type R's on eBay are fully dressed and $1k cheaper than the crate. And I don't have to be a racing magnate to buy one.Quote:
Originally Posted by night
Turns out there is an electric Reverse lockout on the trans that only activates when the car is driving forward. So that's good news. The bad news is that they're having a lot of trouble with these transmissions grinding. It's not recall level stuff, but people are complaining on the discussion boards. Whatever. I'm sure they'll get it ironed out in the next few years.
You starting to see why I'm so excited about the crate engine now? :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by night
The smog question is the hard part. Here in Cali, we have it the worst because our smog laws are so unenlightened. I mean, it's illegal to swap out your old failing carb for a new self-learning EFI system from Holley or MSD, even though you'd end up with a much cleaner car when you were done. It makes no sense.
Anyway, it's legal for me to swap an engine from a newer car into my old car. Legally, I can put a Type R engine into my 3g. Not the crate engine, mind you, but the street legal factory one. I just have to use all the stock emissions stuff that came with it originally: manifolds, EGR, cat, and that belligerent ECU with all its yaw sensors and weird stuff. You have a one-time inspection where JC students crawl all over it, certify it, then all your future smog tests are done as the donor car. I'm interested to see just what all is required to make that factory ECU work.
I keep dripping on my Assemblyman asking him to extend the smog exemption to OBD0 and 1 cars. He seems receptive, but you know, politicians. At any rate, if I can get my 3g smog exempt, that makes it all perfect. It's a long shot though.
Again, still do-able.
oh the joys of living in a state with no vehicle inspections.
After 25yo here it is safety only inspection.
Don't gloat. If history is any indication, Cali's madness will be coming to your state soon.
They've tried it here a few times actually. Always a major backlash against. We do have a wheel tax so maybe that makes up for it =P
It's proof of my point. They're already trying. Don't worry though, they'll ramrod it through in some special midnight session on New Year's Eve with just enough banker-bribed senators to make a quorum. A few callers to talk radio will be screaming bloody murder, but the news will ignore it or say, well, it's only a limited mandate so stop complaining. Then it will grow from there into the ugly, corrupt bureaucracy that is strangling Cali.
They tried that too... sneaking it in through some random bill, didn't work. Tennessee residents are VERY adamant about it.
I already have a b swap in my car. It gave it life in the performance part. Now 7 years later it needs more power. I am going to install a turbo kit and aim for 400hp in a 3gee. My top speed so far has been 131mph but I could of gone more if I would of had a longer road and didnt want to jail.lol
Hey Messy, what's your HP right now? Are you having any issues with too much HP, like torque steer, breaking parts, etc? Would you expect a CTR swap to cause any issues like that?
On his bio it says 175whp and 132tq, tuned by “Redzone”, but idk how current that info isQuote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Snooz
I test drove a 2018 Civic Si last week. It was nice. The new cars are all so smooth and quiet now. You barely hear the engine, even when you're standing in front of it. When I opened the hood, it only made a ticking sound, like a teletype machine or something. It was bizarre. I was keenly aware of all the rattles and squeaks in my 3g afterward. All the Civics and Accords I looked at on the lot were 1.5L with turbos. The Si puts out 200hp and gets 38 MPG. Damn.
It stuck real well around the cloverleaf on-ramp and had plenty of gitup. It wasn't anything I would throw around in traffic (which is what I love so much about my 3g), but it was a solid performer. I didn't notice any turbo lag, but I haven't driven many turbos. It had an annoying habit of holding the revs too high for too long after I'd released the gas pedal, so there was a chronic rev mismatch when I shifted quickly. Very annoying. You could baby the engine and it felt fairly sluggish, but if you stepped the pedal harder, it opened up and made nice power. Like all Hondas, they're fairly sedate until you find that spot where they open up and pull hard. It's nice to know that some things don't change.
I know I talk a lot of trash about new cars, but there are some things I REALLY like about them: 38 MPG, direct injection, i-VTEC, balance shafts, timing chains, how they're so quiet, and so on. This car had all that. But it had all the stuff I really hate too. For instance, it's ugly. Godawful ugly. Like something Optimus Prime threw up. It has an annoying satnav screen which had eaten a number of buttons that should be on the dash, like the fan speed controller. The salesman had to turn it off for me. They get all upset that people crash while fumbling with their phones. What about the people who crash fumbling with these stupid satnavs? There used to be something called human factors engineering that insisted things should be easy to use and accommodate themselves to how humans work. Why are we always being forced to accommodate the machines now? It's a conspiracy. We can't have flying cars and robot nannies, but we can have ugly cars full of irritating distractions. It had heated seats (something useless and sure to break), air bags (explosives aimed at my face), backup camera (just make the windows bigger please), etc. This is a Civic for God's sake. Backup cameras are for octogenarian blue-hairs fresh out of neck surgery, driving cars much bigger than they should.
The two things that struck me the most were paradoxical. This is at the same time both a very BIG car, and a very SMALL car. Parked next to it, it dwarfs my 3g. It's giant. Yet when I get inside, the doors are uncomfortably close. The console comes halfway up my upper arm and there is a very narrow tunnel for me to thread my legs into. I had to cock my arm at a funny angle to reach the shifter and my elbow almost hit the seatback when I changed gears. Why don't they just leave all the electronic crap out and give me some room? It was like being in a coffin. God help me if I'm in the wrong spot when the airbags explode. I'll be finished for sure. If I'm in a wreck, there's nowhere to go but to get squished and I'm super skinny.
I have zero interest in owning something like it. I just wanted to try out the trans to see if 5th is really as difficult to shift into as I'd thought. It isn't. Sixth is kinda hard to find, but no more so than 5th is in my car. The dealership wouldn't let me drive a Type R without promising them a kidney, so I drove the next best thing. Time is on my side. In a couple years, they'll beg me to drive one.
Anyway, I'll be curious if the Type R has that whole rev mismatch thing happening. That would seriously blight the joy of putting it into a 3g. Maybe there's some way to hack it.
Wise words, I could have done that with several cars I've had and have awesome ones but I've got lazy in my old age lol no I just don't have the place or space to work on them even though I'm able to do my own work on just about any area.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Snooz
