B20a Cams

Cat Cams got some answers from their U.K. dealer.

Just sopke with the U.K dealer for Cat Cams their based in Belgium and they'll make anything from scratch from chilled cast or billet steel, also the years of the B20A they have listed seem to match Preludes and Accords of the same ERA so it looks like they are for an Actual B20A!! The guy's going to phone me back to confirm tomorrow hopefully price was about £360 ish pounds for the pair which is pretty good.
Also they said that they could do a custom grind on steel billet for A20 for around £250-300ish only down side they need a head and valve train to test fit but as i have plenty spare shouldn't be a problem!!
They have been making cams for 15 years also very popular in Germany where a lot of B20A preludes and Accords were sold so chances are hopefully they are for the right engine!! Which would be pretty cool a direct replacement B20A camshaft!!

Interesting! I can see they have retainers listed for that engine as well so I guess they have springs as well. Assuming that this is for the accord and prelude b20a.

edit: they have a dealer in denmark as well. wohoo! lol :tongue:

well they got a list of springs on the websites with all the dimensions so it's just a case of measuring up what fits!! No big deal got some springs in the workshop was going to see what would fit!!

Yea, but I dont have any spare B20A springs laying around though. Actually I dont have anything in spare for that engine...

Ok, Thank you vary much Rjudgey, to call these guys for informations, because maybe next year I'l do a EDM B20A2 swap 137hp.......I think B20A2 (without the jdm cams) could take more than 40-45hp gains with Just some cheap ITR PISTONS £250(like carotman's B20a), Cat Cams and P&P head.
Then is a stand alone ECU, ITB with 310-370cc injectors+ F.P.G and free flow exaust-header..and I think could be 230-240crank hp?? at 7000rpm?? or less??streetable and
cheaper than one jdm B18C 197hp complete swap?
Anyway £360 for the pair is VERY GOOD price.............normally SKUNK-TODA CAMS for the newer B VTEC ENGINES cost £650+ the pair.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjudgey

Cat Cams got some answers from their U.K. dealer.

Just sopke with the U.K dealer for Cat Cams their based in Belgium and they'll make anything from scratch from chilled cast or billet steel, also the years of the B20A they have listed seem to match Preludes and Accords of the same ERA so it looks like they are for an Actual B20A!! The guy's going to phone me back to confirm tomorrow hopefully price was about £360 ish pounds for the pair which is pretty good.
Also they said that they could do a custom grind on steel billet for A20 for around £250-300ish only down side they need a head and valve train to test fit but as i have plenty spare shouldn't be a problem!!
They have been making cams for 15 years also very popular in Germany where a lot of B20A preludes and Accords were sold so chances are hopefully they are for the right engine!! Which would be pretty cool a direct replacement B20A camshaft!!

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That would be a great thing a real cam for our car. I'd go new and skip the regrinds for what your doing. Regrind is like old school 60's tech. :lol:


wp

you could make a lot more than 230-240. with 270cc injectors and just the GUDE headpackage with cam timings set at 0 deg adv/ret, (completely untuned), my b20a made 218 flywheel hp. so adjust for tuning, MSD ignition, and every other little goodie... you can make a lot of power. and 8000+ rpm with a better bottom end (shotpeen/polish rods, hypereutectic teflon coated pistons etc)... I can't find it right now but someplace sells a lifetime guaranteed race motor that is labeled a b20, and has the EXACT same bore/stroke of our b20a's. I think 81/95? either way, it seems to be modeled directly after ours, they claim it is invincible and will take any beating, and yields 280hp and 190 ft/lb. peak HP at 7800rpm

Impressive. Do you have any dyno sheets of this and do you still have the car? Those pistons were they for a B18C?

Rjudgey, did you get confirmed if the cams are actually for our B20A?

Just got a response back today they only have done re-grinds for the A20 but for the B20A they seem confident that we are talking about the same engine but i'm just worried that they might not fit as they may be for 3G prelude engines instead? The later B20's in 3G ludes aren't the saem are they?
Their not that expensive i might risk buying a pair, but i asked if i send them a pair of stock ones if they can check to see if they are the same.

Qoute:
Hi,

I might have already answered this but I don't think so.

If not then sorry for the delay.

The answer we have from Catcams is:

I think Honda has actually developed more engines than they ever sold cars, so I’m never 100% sure on them.

A/ B20A
As far as I know, B20A should be B20A, so I assume our cams should be correct for the Accord if indeed the B20A is said to be fitted (DOHC 16v, 8 lobes per camshaft, mechanic slipper followers, no Vtec).

B/ A20
We have seen some SOHC 12v cams for regrinding, but I think we do not have castings for this engine. We can make billets if required, but we will need the cylinder head and it will take some time (and money). But it can be done.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Matthew Saville

88-89 Accord DOHC has part nr. 14111-PH3-010 for the intake cam. 88-89 Prelude 2.0 DOHC has the same part number for intake cam.
Ex. cam part nr. are different though.
87 and 88-89 accord DOHC doesnt have the same part nr. on intake cams either.
But when the intake cam can be swapped, it leads you to believe that the ex. cam can be swapped as well?

Whenever I get around to installing my B20A and making sure it runs right, I'll be sending in my cams to Colt. Carotman has the ones he made for Mike Lee's turbo B20A (a bit more aggressive than usual). I can't remember now since it's been a while but I think he charges somewhere around $400-$500CAD for the pair.

You have to be carefull with these cams as they are hollow they don't tend to like being re-ground too well, not to any big degree, turbo you can get away with as you don't use much lift or duration, but were talking complete new cams here which are made from billet blanks not re-grinds or anything else cheap and for the money their asking if they do fit isn't that bad £326 for the pair they do three profiles from mild to wild as well with the wild one requiring some headwork to get the valves to work without hitting the guides!
Sounds promising anyways getting high Duration cams for these engines has been a dream and if they are real then could become reality!! Not sure when i can get some cams to them to compare so expect an update in a few weeks as they need to be shipped from U.K to Holland.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjudgey

You have to be carefull with these cams as they are hollow they don't tend to like being re-ground too well, not to any big degree, turbo you can get away with as you don't use much lift or duration, but were talking complete new cams here which are made from billet blanks not re-grinds or anything else cheap and for the money their asking if they do fit isn't that bad £326 for the pair they do three profiles from mild to wild as well with the wild one requiring some headwork to get the valves to work without hitting the guides!
Sounds promising anyways getting high Duration cams for these engines has been a dream and if they are real then could become reality!! Not sure when i can get some cams to them to compare so expect an update in a few weeks as they need to be shipped from U.K to Holland.

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Sorry if I took anything away from your post. Just wanted to throw out there are options for us out in North America for B20A cams. I don't know much about the European companies but from what it sounds like, if it pans out, it sounds like a great deal.

As for the "hollow" thing you mentioned, is this just for the B20A? I'm a bit curious about this as this is the first time I heard of any Honda cam being hollow. Apparently, Honda uses the best materials for cams which is why Colt only does regrinds and won't touch blank billets.

There is also one company on U.K which makes regrid cams for A20,B20:

http://www.tts-performance.com/catal...d61570ff7c4c2f

TTS is just a shop the cams are Web cam re-grinds which they ship off to get done, i spoke to pipercams and they do profiles for everything and they had said that no profiles were available because they are hollow.
And yes the B20A cams are hollow done to save weight and rotational mass. I think they said also their might be a problem with rocker arm contact as well.

Thank you very much rjudgey, Great Info!!!!
I didn't know that TTS sales regrid Web-cams.
So from brand new cams for B20A, there are 3 choises: Crower-Crane B18A cams and Catcams.

I'm driving to Holland in January!
I can confirm the B20 cams are hollow....I snapped one in half LOL
3g cams do fit. If anybody has a 3g Prelude B20a5, the intake cam in our B20's are similar to the cams in the UK B20a7. ...performance tip.

So are they the same fit or slightly different? If so are their any 3G Lude cams that cam be used that are an upgrade from stock that you know off? I think a pair of mild cams will really wake my B20A up but still need to find a way round that Rev limiter though!! Anyone know what the JDM ECU rev limiter cuts in at?

My JDM PH3 ecu rev limit is at 7000 rpm. According to the gauges anyway...
The intake cams also have the same part numbers in the parts catalogue, but what about the exhaust cam, doesnt that fit too?

Does it fit the Cam sensor though??

Well guy's the little dutch fellows finally got back in touch, and gues what the cams i sent them measure identically to the dimensions of there grinds so they are definately for our 1st generation B20A and B18A engines from 3G accords and 2G Ludes.

Downside is that they aren't expensive as some cams considering that they are from blanks and are not re-grinds but as most of you are on the wrong side of the water shipping will make them quite dear!!

Well there £367 pounds exluding vat so us poor Brits have to cough up 17.5% on top of that price for tax and you guy's have your import tax and shipping to check the specs go to www.catcams.com to drool hope this helps i hope to have some in a couple of months.

Does anyone know the stock specs of B20A camshafts??

Well Cat cams confirmed that they are indeed for 1st Generation B20A and B18A engines from ours cars.
£367 pounds then any taxes or import duty and shipping on top!!

Sweet.
Did he confirm that there's also cut a slot in the exhaust cam (as in the intake cam)? And the length of them?

I already bought stage2 B18A/B cams that I had shortened to fit. Those ran me around £300 pounds including shipping and everything. Only downside is that they're a bit heavier than those stock ones...

here's the specs from the shopmanual

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1566/cam9tk.jpg

Unsure but i'm sure they would slot it for you as there made to order and from blanks. Also again i think they will be heavier being blanks and not hollow which is a shame but hey they;ll be stronger and boy do i want some of that high lift duration goodiness 288 degrees and 12mm lift hell yeah!!

Any ideas what the stock duration length is from that??

That valve timing diagram above states that the duration is 205/205 if that's what you mean?

A little picture to compare the pos stock B20A2 duration to stage 2 duration :D

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7629/camstock0sq.jpg

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7682/cam2hh.jpg

Geez didn't think it was that low miracle it revs as high as they do?? That'll be the big valves involved me thinks!! So even a 246 degree would be a vast improvement hmm not sure which one to go for now!! Amazing the amount of difference you can see from those two pics who were the stage 2 cams made by??

Any ideas what the duration is on the JDM B20A cams are??
Surprised no many people have replied to B20A cams being available whought they were much in demand?

Intake jdm b20a cam is same as b20a5 intake cam. My instincts tell me the xhst cam for the jdm b20a is a little bit more aggressive than the b20a5 exhaust cam.

If my cams screw up, I'm going to go for some performance b18a cams and shave them. The rotating mass change won't make too much difference.

(and, rj, i sure wish I had a dyno anything. the motor now has more (of some things) and less (of others) and after tuning I'm more than certain I'll be where I want to be hp-wise.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjudgey

Geez didn't think it was that low miracle it revs as high as they do?? That'll be the big valves involved me thinks!! So even a 246 degree would be a vast improvement hmm not sure which one to go for now!! Amazing the amount of difference you can see from those two pics who were the stage 2 cams made by??

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yea hehe they look good. Those are Crower pieces.

As far as i remember from when i did an eye measure comparisment of the b20a and b20a2 cams i couldnt tell any difference in the duration.

These are really nice news!!! Thanks again rjudgey for the searching.

The September I am finish with university, and I am thinking to find a job and start working in a new 3Geez accord (not that of my father).

The problem is that B20A never came to Greece, and there is no parts support from the official Honda dealer....
No timing belts, no clutch, no valve-cam seals, nothing.

Everything must be order from U.K...

So the problem for me is if I'll do a B20A2 (from a UK 2.0I-16 car) swap
or I'll go the more expensive route with one jdm B18C-R swap.

We'll see in the future.....


But otherwise these are good news.

I think one B20A with

Jdm ITR pistons (carotman mod) , with 12:1 C/R.
P&P head.
Jenvey ITB with big injectors.
Cat cams or crower-crane B18 modified cams.
Custom exhaust and header 4-1.
Lightened flywheel and new clutch
OBD-1 conversion with dynotuned stand alone ECU.

Could easily make 250+hp flywheel or 230 whp with tons of torque and at lower revs than the newer VTEC DOHC engines.

The problem is the availability of parts, and that everything must be custom,
per example the JENVEY ITB must be slightly modified from a newer B VTEC engine through there isn't any mass production bolt on JENVEY kit for B20A...

For the head I think stock B20A valve springs and retainers could make it until 8000rpm rev limit.

Versanick's engine must be the most powerful N/A B20A at the moment, hope to make 220+hp on Dyno, after tuning.

Lok
You could allways import over a European B20A Lude or Accord and use it as a donor car or if you find a good one like thegreatdane use that instead.
Anyways as far as those mods go for a B20A thats what i was planning on anyways.

So Far:
Designed new headwork specific to the B20A only
Designed Big valve conversion for B20A only
Designed and custom fabbed new inlet manifold for Jenvey ITB's or Weber Carbs, 10 degree down angle and extra long 5.5" length runners with flanges and anti vibration mounts will be nearly 6 inches.
Camshafts from Cat Cams looking at the 278 degree duration and 11mm lift ones with Cat cams Retainers and springs. (I really don't think B20A springs can go much higher than 7k safely they are very weak compared to A18 or ET springs)
Custom Header with 2.25" mandrel bent system no Cat
Will be running Webers first to save on cost and i have a pair not doing much at the moment.

But what i need is some more info on the best pistons/Rods to use good value for money nothing too pricey can't quite afford forged yet. But would be nice to get a CR ratio of 11:1 or maybe 11.5-12:1 if the Head Gasket can hold it using Ajusa as i can get those real cheap.

Hoping to be able to hit around 230+bhp with it still being reasonable to drive on the road.

That's a really nice set-up rjudgey!!!

I disagree only in the exhaust selection.....I think 2.75" is better through this is a 2.0L DOHC engine....
In U.S.A they use 2.25" and 2.5" for 1.6L and 1.8L tuned B16 and b18 engines.
2.75" would be Ok for 250hp.

As for C/R
B20A goes 11:1 C/R with just stock B16A pistons and you can find them with only £40 second hand from a scrap yard (in good condition) + new rings.
If you want more C/R the best is what carotman has done but not with USDM ITR pistons but with jdm ITR pistons.
You can get 11.8:1 C/R and with slightly milling hit 12:1 C/R.
New jdm ITR pistons cost £270 in U.K with rings.
From U.S.A you can get them for $300 plus shipping.

Is there any mods for B16A pistons might look at aftermarket set of those maybe but will need an oversize as the spare B20A block has small amount of corrosion in one cylinder plus you can't beat a bit of extra CC will help boost CR ratio too!! Will need at least a 1mm oversize is there any mods i need to do to the rods or pistons to fit the stock rods? Any aftermarket rods worth thinking about??
Thanks for the info want to start building up the spare engine so i can do a straight swap out save mucking about.
P.S. any info on best clutch/flywheel solution would be usefull as well thanks.
Hmm not sure about the exhaust size a well made mandrel bent 2.25" should do the trick upto 250bhp as well really, too big can reduce velocity and reduce the effectiveness of the system also pain in the bum fitting anything else much bigger than 2.25" we'll see depends how far i want to go with this car i don't think the shell could take that kinda power might start looking for a 3G aerodeck to drop the engine into that is not quite so rotten found a nice one on EBAY with very low mileage one owner and garage kept in Monetery Green though not too bad a colour could be Burghandy or Gold i suppose!! running out of good quality 2G lude shells i would have loved to have had a 3G accord coupe but they were never imported to U.K. same as the Hatch too there nice as well none here either!! Anyone know the weight of a 3G aerodeck??

Also one other quickie whats the availability of quality suspension upgrades like?? can you get Koni's or Bilstein still or are they discontinued like the 2G ludes? Also the suspension at the back the same on Aerodeck and Saloon?

Yes Rjudgey, you can use any 81mm piston (or oversize versions 81.25, 81.5, 82mm) from newer B DOHC Honda engines.
I think you must use B20A rod, B20A piston pin and slightly machined pistons (from newer B series) through the B20A pin is larger by 1mm (22mm instead of 21mm of newer B series).
That’s what Carotman has done in his engine and works well, as far as we know.
Then new bearings-crank metals (stock) for your rebuilt engine.
I thing Forged rods for B20A must be custom, but you can shot pining the stock ones together with new rod bolts.
Accord Aerodeck is a really nice car, and I think is handling better that the Prelude 2G if you interest about track circuit.
Weight for EXI is 1105 kg, and with B20A will be about the same (Stock A20 is cast iron).
So is heavier than the Prelude 2G 2.0I-16 which weights 1050-1060kg but not big difference.
More here:

http://www.hondarevolutions.com/html...cordaero3g.htm

There are many types of springs and Coilovers available for Accord 3G ( you can use Civic 4G,5G,6G, Accord 4G and INTEGRA 3G coilovers as well) but Koni dampers are discontinued.
You must use either Tokico or KYB (cheap and good) or Bilstein revalved (expensive).

I'd go as light as possible on the rods and pistons if you want to reach those high numbers, dunno how much ITR pistons weigh compared to stock B20A ones but I doubt they'd be any lighter. Anybody got any numbers?

Lok, I'll be looking forward to see what you can come up with when you get a new 3g. Hard choice on the ITR and B20A engines though, an ITR engine isnt too expencive any more but then again it's not the true 3rd gen engine :)

I'm off to watch some telly, F1 is on, they're driving in the US today.

Okay then so let me get this clear in my head.
To raise CR ratio i need to use B16A pistons or B18C pistons
but i have to machine the pistons to fit onto the B20A rods as the B20A has a 22mm piston pin and the others are 21mm?
Does anyone know how far out the valve relief pockets are if any? as with a 278 degree cam i would have thought that if they were not in line will end up in bent valves happening.
If i don't get stock B16 or B18 whats a good alternative can 3G lude pistons be used? and what about the B21 pistons?
Sorry about all the noob questions all my research on parts has only really been done on A20/ET/ET1/ES/A18/BS/BT although at least i did find some quality B20A cams ;0)

Dear Rjudgey, You are right about the piston job. That’s all you must do, to connect the 22mm pin of B20A pistons to B20A rods using newer B series pistons.
As I said before, you can have 11:1 C/R with B16A pistons or 12:1 C/R with jdm ITR pistons (from jdm B18C-R) with slightly milling of the head (cleaning).
This is the best way to increase C/R, through without serious milling you can just set the cams to Honda 0,0 points and you will not need any more money for custom cam gears.
B16A pistons and B18C-R pistons have very large pockets and I don’t thing that you will have any problem using performance cams.
By the way B20A pistons are flat on the top.
Think about it with 1.5-2.5 points increase in C/R you can gain easy 15-25hp, this is the best mod I think you can make for B20a and do not cost that much money.
As for weight of piston, I think this will not be a problem through newer VTEC engines rev at 8000+ rpm stock, so those pistons must be good enough for a B20A to rev over 7000rpm.
More specs about newer Honda engines and B20A5 (prelude 3G) here:
http://www.ntpog.org/articles/frankenb/frankenb.xls
http://www.superhonda.com/tech/DC2Ty...omparison.html
Dear Thegreatdane the problem with B20A as I said, is the availability of parts, otherwise I will love to have one B20a on my 3Geez…this engine maybe is less powerful than the newer Honda top engines, but still has the best torque curve (more torque even from the F20C of S2000) until 6000 rpm+ as your Dyno proved and POWER=TORQUE*RPM and this is (in my point of view) very critical.
Also I believe one B20A with some mods can rich 200+hp status and still be overall cheaper swap than one B18C-R engine……. So we’ll see in the future.

rjudgey, you can use H23 rods, they are the same size except for being a hair bit longer as far as I understand.

The 3g lude B20A7 (only B20A7) engines have 10.5:1 c/r. Those pistons would be certain to fit but of course not that big of a c/r change..

Lok, about the weight, since our stroke and rods are so long I think that having lighter pistons is even more important in our B20A engines than in the vtec B-series. Of course if you dont plan to make power above 6500-7000 rpm this might be less important.

The "R" pistons have a Moly coating on them that reduces friction too... this is a nice advantage.

H23 Rods,
hmm thats interesting if it's a longer rod that will up the CR ratio even more especially if the chambers are matched perfectly to the bore?
What pistons will fit onto the h23 Rod anyone know the pin size?
I take it that the H23 Bearings fit onto the B20A crank as well.
Thanks guy's for all the info much appreciated any other suitable budget type off the shelf parts you think miught be usefull to my re-built B20A just let us know thanks.
Also nearly became a true 3Geez member yesterday nearly bought a 3g Aerodeck saw one on Ebay 54k miles one owner garaged kept all it's life manual as well Montery green mettalic EXI was at £180 but right at the last minute some swine gazumped me and put it through the roof went at £770 in the end was probably worth the money but i was after a bargain and over £500 wasn't so much of a bargain. So for now still got 2 2G ludes and my baby Beemer!!

H23 rods use the same piston pin size as the B20A. The lenght difference is too tiny to be significant though I think.
Now go get yourself an aerodeck already. 770 quid does sound like a bargain

H23 Rods know any good aftermarket ones?? If they are a direct replacement and B20A pistons fit on i might just get a replacement set of B20A7 pistons as well unless your pretty sure that the B16/18 ones are safe to re-bore the pin holes just seems a bit dodgy thats all?
Anyone know what the Rod length is on H23 whats the difference .25mm .5mm? any increase is a bonus for CR ratio!

Oh also whats the deal on clutches and flywheels did a search is the B20A5 flywheel the only close fit anything better suited that doesn't need grinding on the gearbox?
Also am i right in saying that A20 pressure plate and clutch fits but i need a throw out bearing from B20A??
I can only get LUK/Ferrodo clutch kits for B20A if i'm going to be turning 200+bhp would like something from clutchnet in there if it means sticking with stock flywheel and just having it machine lighter but able to use A20 clutchnet disk and plate i'd be happy with that but obviously a ally flywheel would be nice too? Would a A20 flywheel fit with minimal mods?? thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjudgey

Oh also whats the deal on clutches and flywheels did a search is the B20A5 flywheel the only close fit anything better suited that doesn't need grinding on the gearbox?
Also am i right in saying that A20 pressure plate and clutch fits but i need a throw out bearing from B20A??
I can only get LUK/Ferrodo clutch kits for B20A if i'm going to be turning 200+bhp would like something from clutchnet in there if it means sticking with stock flywheel and just having it machine lighter but able to use A20 clutchnet disk and plate i'd be happy with that but obviously a ally flywheel would be nice too? Would a A20 flywheel fit with minimal mods?? thanks

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I know that the A20 flywheel bolts to the B20A but I dont know if it clears the bell housing of the tranny. And yes you need a B20A throwout bearing.
Some of the B20A5 guys use a B16 flywheel, but mind you those dont have any TDC marks on them.
I have yet to consult a machinist about the safety of boring out the pistons for a larger piston pin, but then again several people are running them like that.

If a A20 one fits then what about a ET/A18 flywheel ?? thats has the same bolt pattern as A20 flywheel

OK I see you guys are undecisive about certain parts and what can be swapped over or what not. You can use H23/f22 rods in a b20a just fine. No jump in compression though! I thought rjudgey would at least know that! And b16/b18 pistons work but the pins are the problem. Weisco's make em for the B20a and in any cr you want. B16/B18 flywheels and clutch's work as well but with a tiny bit of modification. H22 valve springs and retainers are direct fit as well. Anything else for you guys????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SovietSuperSoldier

OK I see you guys are undecisive about certain parts and what can be swapped over or what not. You can use H23/f22 rods in a b20a just fine. No jump in compression though! I thought rjudgey would at least know that! And b16/b18 pistons work but the pins are the problem. Weisco's make em for the B20a and in any cr you want. B16/B18 flywheels and clutch's work as well but with a tiny bit of modification. H22 valve springs and retainers are direct fit as well. Anything else for you guys????

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Just to clarify this is not the b20 that came in the Ludes or CRV's. This is a JDM/EDM b20 out of a 3rd gen accord. I have never heard of people swapping the entire h22 valvetrain over to a b20. If that is true, that would help out with some engine builds. Where did you get your info from?

B16/B18 valve springs and retainers fits too but the stock locks doesnt work with those. Not sure if the B16/B18 locks fit's the B20A valves though, if they do that would solve the problem.

But as far as the H22 springs and retainers goes I thought it was confirmed on preludepower that the springs would fit but the retainers wouldnt?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatdane

H23 rods use the same piston pin size as the B20A. The lenght difference is too tiny to be significant though I think.
Now go get yourself an aerodeck already. 770 quid does sound like a bargain

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This is good to know instead of having rod's made for my B20a i can buy a set of Eagle Rod's for H23 to go in my b20a.This is what i need to know is the rod bearings on the H23 the same size as the B20a ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegreatdane

B16/B18 valve springs and retainers fits too but the stock locks doesnt work with those. Not sure if the B16/B18 locks fit's the B20A valves though, if they do that would solve the problem.
But as far as the H22 springs and retainers goes I thought it was confirmed on preludepower that the springs would fit but the retainers wouldnt?

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Talk to Fly on Preludepower. He's done it;)
And twoloudnproud, are you planning on running more than 300+whp??? If not then stock H23 rods are fine. I swear some people think they're building a Ferrari and want to upgrade every nut and bolt when they're going to be running a N/A engine that might put out 200whp.

If you guys want to make some serious N/A power then your best bet would be to get some ITB's. They're good for probably another 30hp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SovietSuperSoldier

Talk to Fly on Preludepower. He's done it;)
And twoloudnproud, are you planning on running more than 300+whp??? If not then stock H23 rods are fine. I swear some people think they're building a Ferrari and want to upgrade every nut and bolt when they're going to be running a N/A engine that might put out 200whp.

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What i want is to hit 8K or 8.5K without worring about sending a rod through the block.I am building a B20a turbo the power band i am looking at for the cams is 400 to 8500 RPMs that why i was asking about the H23 rods if the stock H23 can handle it that would be great.save me some money

Yeah those H23 rods can handle it. But what cams are you looking at? And I assume your planning on N/A? The key to revving high like that is the rotating mass(crank,rods,pistons,bearings,flywheel etc.) Lighten that and beef it up a bit and you can safely do that. Oh and the valvetrain must be up to par as well.

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Originally Posted by SovietSuperSoldier

Yeah those H23 rods can handle it. But what cams are you looking at? And I assume your planning on N/A? The key to revving high like that is the rotating mass(crank,rods,pistons,bearings,flywheel etc.) Lighten that and beef it up a bit and you can safely do that. Oh and the valvetrain must be up to par as well.

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i am going to use CROWER TURBO CAMSHAFT B18A B18B and for the head it going in the shop for the works dont know what valve springs i am going to use yet still looking.

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Originally Posted by SovietSuperSoldier

Talk to Fly on Preludepower. He's done it;)
And twoloudnproud, are you planning on running more than 300+whp??? If not then stock H23 rods are fine. I swear some people think they're building a Ferrari and want to upgrade every nut and bolt when they're going to be running a N/A engine that might put out 200whp.

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No, he's the one that found out that the H22 retainers didnt work, but the springs did.

thegreatdane so can we use H23 rods in the B20a ?

Someone told me the H23 rods were a little longer bot by much but any extra length over the original B20A rod will increase the CR ratio as it will be lifting the pistons up higher into the chamber!! AS another thought i was thinking why don't we use the H22 rods they are a little longer and if you machine the top of the piston to fit the combustion chamber you would get adn even bigger increase in CR ratio?? Any thoughts anyone know what the exact lsize of the lenght of rods are between B20A/H23/H22??
For the price of uprated Rods as in around $3-450 with ARP rod bolts included any application thats going to be revving past 7.5K and especially 8k or more i would strongly urge them to use aftermarket rods even with N/A engine as with continual use pass 30k miles they do break and come apart i know because i have an engine with two rods through it!!
Plus with the extra long stroke of a B20A they tend to put that extra little bit of strain on the rods than normal too.

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Originally Posted by rjudgey

Someone told me the H23 rods were a little longer bot by much but any extra length over the original B20A rod will increase the CR ratio as it will be lifting the pistons up higher into the chamber!! AS another thought i was thinking why don't we use the H22 rods they are a little longer and if you machine the top of the piston to fit the combustion chamber you would get adn even bigger increase in CR ratio?? Any thoughts anyone know what the exact lsize of the lenght of rods are between B20A/H23/H22??
For the price of uprated Rods as in around $3-450 with ARP rod bolts included any application thats going to be revving past 7.5K and especially 8k or more i would strongly urge them to use aftermarket rods even with N/A engine as with continual use pass 30k miles they do break and come apart i know because i have an engine with two rods through it!!
Plus with the extra long stroke of a B20A they tend to put that extra little bit of strain on the rods than normal too.

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in my chilton manual the engine specification the b20a bore is 3.19in and the stroke is 3.74in the h23 bore is 3.43 and stroke is 3.74in it the same as the b20a

Thats the stroke just because the stroke is the same doesn't mean the length of the Rods are the same depends where the piston pin is located. From what i was told the H23 rods are compatible but a tiny tiny bit longer, but the pins used are bigger so pistons need to be used from Type R with the 22mm wrist pins. As for Revs H23 isn't designed for high revving so even more reason to use uprated rods on the B20A the H22 with Vtec revs higher which is why it has a shorter stroke to relieve problems with Rods going through the block at continual high rpm and high mileage.

If you use H23 Rods with B20A5 pistons you will be fine. I have Pauter H23 Rods and Wiseco Pistons from a USDM Prelude B20A5.

And for the valvetrain i am running B18 springs/retainers with ferrea b18 exhaust valves and custom cut intake valves because the intake valves have much larger heads like one of an H22 but a b18 stem size.

so do these people still have the cams being made i jsut send them to them or they make them . iwill they do wild cams

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They are machined made cams not regrinds and they can do any spec you want but the head will need machining and you'll need to upgrade the entire valve train and also advise bronze valve guides as the iron ones will wear out quicker. Also wouldn't go too mental on duration as the heads rockers can only take upto 8k rpm any higher and they can come off the springs!! I'd go for more lift instead with the huge valves that are in B20A 12mm lift is benefitial.

I get confused looking at the Brian Crower b18 grinds...more focused to turbo efi.
I wonder which grind would best suit an all motor, 300-500 cfm carb of either delortos or even a downdraft tuned Holley off road carb with adjustable secondary diaphragm...and EDIS
just saying....

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Originally Posted by rjudgey

They are machined made cams not regrinds and they can do any spec you want but the head will need machining and you'll need to upgrade the entire valve train and also advise bronze valve guides as the iron ones will wear out quicker. Also wouldn't go too mental on duration as the heads rockers can only take upto 8k rpm any higher and they can come off the springs!! I'd go for more lift instead with the huge valves that are in B20A 12mm lift is benefitial.

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Understandable, my goal is street power wnd better flow than stock blacktop cams. I dont remember if b20a5 performance cams worked in these or at all, I can buy used b20a5 cams and have them regrind if there useable or maybe b18 stock cams and get out the band saw.

Yeah, I am pretty sure the B20A5 cams are the same.

Yes, the B20A5 cams will work.

I believe web cams made aftermarket cams for the b20a5

Calling all b20a experts!
Ok ive been searching a couple hrs for clear verified info on how b18 cams work in the bastard b20a. I got my hands on a setof Crower 404 b18 cams and b18 Crower springs & titainium retainers.
The Crower website says these fit "1st gen" b20 but we never know what that means right....
from what I read here is the valve spring retainers wont work because the b20 keepers are smaller as are the valve stems.
I don't see a place where the cam can be "sawed off" either.

thats a bit beyond me as i havent had any experience with comparing valves / retainers / springs. the cams themselves will fit tho :P

Bringing this back up I've been looking at more parts for my B20A build, really want the head to flow more and get much higher compression.

Stock B16/18 pistons should work for me as the wrist pins if I remember rightly on EDM B20A are 21mm so direct fit, you can get those in a 82mm bore size which is extra CC's so that's good and extra CR ratio, bad news is the stock pistons are Compression height of 30.75mm the B16/18 pistons are 30mm so you will loose bit of compression by putting these in, only other option is spend loads on aftermarket rods and Wiseco pistons which only do 81.5mm bore and 10.5:1CR ratio. Other option is take .25mm off the deck and .5mm off the head, as a matter of course I've taken .5mm off the deck with no issues and you can quite easily get 1mm off the head more if you don't mind scrapping the head if you blow a few head gaskets. Which if your using slightly raised flat top B16/18 pistons combined with .75mm less metal in the way on head and block you should get a nice healthy CR ratio at around 11:1 if you don't take too much out the chamber when cleaning it up.

Now for the trick part and answers the above question on the valve locks, you can either get new ones that fit or better option use B16/18 valve guides which are the same external diameter which will then enable you to use B16/18 vavles which have benefit of two things, more choice in parts for me supertech seem to offer the best value/performance/quality valves they do them in stock sizes or 1mm over size which would mean we could have a B20A with 34mm inlet valves and 29mm exhaust valves, you would also have the benefit of the stems dropping from 6.5mm to 5.5 mm the supertech ones are also waisted down to 5mm so this really helps get extra air/fuel in and exhaust gas out.

Combine that with Brian Crower cams and either ITB's or Webers you could be looking at quite an evil engine and you'd have not spent that much on parts as they're all off the shelf common parts from other engines. Personally I'd use uprated rods which if you fit new bronze bushes in to fit 21mm is fine but you need to have oil squirters drilled into them as all aftermarket rods see to have these missing with their excuse is it's not a road car so will be spinning at high enough rpm to splash enough oil around, you could have these machined in but factor that extra cost in.

Hey Rjudgey
Here are some ferrea part numbers for valves .
F1854p and F1852p
Mitsi 6g72tt 1mm o/s in and ex , slide straight into the Honda with recut seats and lash caps on the exhaust valves.
That's what is residing in my b20a
Ports don't need bugger all, well according to the guy that looked at mine.
He builds BDA escort motors, formula ford etc etc.
10.5:1 cr 290 degree cams 11mm lift with 45dcoes , these are good for 280 at the flywheel @ 8500rpm.
I'm going itbs and stand alone engine management so should see close to 250 at 7500rpm