ET2 head on ES2 block? Smoking problem...

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Originally Posted by MustardCat

Far away. :-) North of Marysville, in a little town called Mount Vernon. Right now I have a 2g lude carb tranny mated to my a20, but I had to install the accord drive pinion gears into the diff. so the LXi axles would fit into it. If I have extra time I may put the old gears in and use this trans for the shorter gearing.
You auto-x right? How do you feel about the stock gearing? The few times I drove the 2gee it seemed like the gearing was noticeably taller then the 2g lude trans. (and waaay taller then then my 3G lude.)
carotman: Thats an excellent idea for the return line, didn't even occur to me. :thumbup:

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I think the gearing is fine if you're looking for economy. But they're entirely too tall for me. I've got a 2g carb'd lude tranny myself. It's sitting in the garage right now waiting until next week. Ordering a 12lb aluminum flywheel and like just slightly better than OEM clutch. I think this will be a much better combination for the track.

I don't like the way the stock gearing keeps the RPMs below 3000 most of the time. I find myself dropping to 3rd on the freeway jsut to get power, then when I hit redline, 4th is just way too tall. It turns out that 4th gear is an overdrive gear itself, and 5th is just BARELY taller. Kind of a waste really.

I was thinking though that the tranny might be fine on a more powerful engine like the A20. But it's a sucky performer on the ES2.

BTW, Mount Vernon is definitely not too far of a drive for me. I'd be cool with coming up for a day and getting some serious work done. Just gimme a hollar if you need help. Or at least if you get the A20 swap done, let me go for a ride with you so I can see how it is!

Excellent! Another 2G A20 swap!

I would use the 2g lude tranny and the small spline diff, just for simplicity's sake. I did detail a setup on using the big spline shafts, it's in the 2G FAQ.

As for the fuel system, I'm planning on running a pressure line, and the pump/fittings for the 85 Se-i, possibly a Carter EFI generic pump if it's any cheaper. Did the 2G FI Preludes not use an external fuel pump as well? Somebody said they did. I would presume it to be the same pump as the 85 Accord Se-i.

I plan on using the 86 Accord engine harness to run the engine alone, and trimming off all of the excess. You have to be careful, as there are sensors all over the car like the cabin air pressure sensor that have to be in place for the EFI to function properly. Also, the VSS will have to be added to the speedo cable somehow. You will need a good wiring diagram. Since you already have the donor car it will be easier as everything is right there. Don't forget to use the EFI alternator (4 prong) as well.

Unfortunately you won't be able to use the ET-2 twin carb setup on the A20A3 head, the ports are totally different. You will have to swap on the ET-2 head, which by all accounts is totally possible as the ET-ES-BT-BS-A-series all share the same head gasket (as far as I can tell). There might be some oil jet modification required, but I'm not sure of this.

Good luck and stay in touch, us few at 2geez love to see these projects come together, and are happy to help however possible.

Don't the cars with cruise control have a VSS in them? I'm pretty sure my LX has a VSS in the speedo, at least I've read mentions of it in the FSM. Maybe you could swap in an LX gauge cluster for simplicity.

Thanks for the info guys. Another Q: Do all A/E/BT series trans use the same input shaft spline count and diameter? I'm going to order everything I need to re-seal the a20 and also a new clutch kit and do those while the motor is out.

2ndGenGuy: Got a link to that 12 lbs. fly?

I'm not sure about the spline count and diameter, but you'll have to use the Prelude clutch with the Prelude tranny. The 1.8 and 1.6 litre engines got the 200mm clutch, and the 2.0's 212mm clutch and flywheel won't clear the inside of the bellhousing. Far as I know, the prelude flywheel should bolt to the A20 crank no problem, but I've heard of both 12mm and 14mm flywheel bolts for the A20. Ddude2uc know's more about this, maybe try PMing him.


Edit: According to Clutchnet.com http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php...7&cat=0&page=2
the splines are the same between the 2.0 and the 1.8 at 7/8 inches major dia and 21 splines. Only the disc diameters are different.

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Originally Posted by MustardCat

2ndGenGuy: Got a link to that 12 lbs. fly?

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^^^ Clutchnet... rjudgey recommends thier stuff highly.

http://www.clutchnet.com/product.php...3&cat=0&page=1

And for $275, not a bad price at all!

Just an update, this swap is going down on the 27th. I will take plenty of pics and do a write-up if I manage to finish it!

Honda genuine parts, going to re-seal the A20 as it is starting to leak from every seal:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/1.jpg

Walbro 190lph high pressure fuel pump to feed the new F-I system:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2.jpg



Here are some old pics of the car I just found on my digicam.

When I rebuilt the head thinking it would solve my insane smoking issue:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/4.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/5.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/6.jpg

Man it was so clean I wish I could have ran it more:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/7.jpg

Exterior. Typical of a car made in 85 with 200k. Oxidation, some body damage, some rust, etc. Still 10x better then my 3gee though. :-)
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/8.jpg

Interior. Some fading and wear, but it's still pretty good, clean and not all torn up:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/11.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/10.jpg

Man that is sweet! That engine looks clean man! Too bad you gotta swap it all out. Well at least it will still look good. So you're swapping a non-cvcc head onto the ES2 block? What's this discussion of re-sealing the A20? Is that another project? I dig that red valve cover too!

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Originally Posted by MustardCat

Still 10x better then my 3gee though. :-)

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:D :D :D

I'm replacing the ES2 in this car with the A20 from my 3G, and converting the car to fuel-injection.

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Originally Posted by MustardCat

I'm replacing the ES2 in this car with the A20 from my 3G, and converting the car to fuel-injection.

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Oh man I was way off. Sweet! Good luck with the project! BTW, are you keeping the ES2 tranny then, or doing the axle / hub swap with the A20 tranny? Or am I an idiot, and you already posted this?

Keeping the ES2 trans for now. I want to rebuild my 2g lude trans then put that one in later.

Well I partially won the battle. Mechanicly the swap is done, but I ran out of time to finish the wiring so it will probably be another month or two before the car is actually running and driving.

Anyways pics:

Both cars, ready to rock:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/1.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/2.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/3.jpg

A20 out:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/4.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/5.jpg

Pulling the 84 base interior to remove the harness:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/6.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/7.jpg

A20 installed in the 84:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/8.jpg

Was not comfortable with how little space there was between the upper alternator bracket and master cyl. so I cut and shaved the bracket a bit:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/9.jpg

Custom mounted a20 fuel filter setup on the firewall, the feed line bracket is bolted onto the back of the intake manifold. You can just see the new brass barb lock-on fitting screwed into the feed line.
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/10.jpg

Vaccume box, fits ok in the es2 location. You can also see how the A20 igniton coil is mounted. This will all work as-is but if I have more time next time I work on it I may just fabricate proper brackets:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/11.jpg

84 carb fuel strainer vs. 84 F-I strainer. They will NOT swap, you would need at least the fuel level sender/feed pipe from the 84 F-I. I'm just going to stick with the carb. strainer because I see no reason it would need to be swapped....
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/12.jpg

New pump feed line and return line, this is low pressure fuel hose:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/13.jpg

Zip tied to the chassis, tossed the old carb. filter setup:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/14.jpg

Fuel pump, ghetto zip tied up there. This is temporary, once I run the car and am sure there are no leaks I will make a proper bracket for it:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/15.jpg

The part that strikes fear in most people, WIRING! I'm going to reuse the 84 harness to control everything on the car but the motor. I'm taking the 88LXi harness the cutting out all the wiring that doesnt control the engine. So there will be 2 seperate harnesses in the car the 84 chassis harness and the A20 F-I harness. Only a few wires will have to "cross over" stuff like the oil pres. and water temp, and power wires:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/2/16.jpg

looks nice...keep up the good work

Great work. That little car will move out and be a 3gee spanking machine. Since the base model weighs 2187lbs and is now going to have ~120hp, it's going to freakin' move! It's gonna be sweet! Keep us posted, and get us some good numbers when you're done. :) (1/4 mile, 0-60) :D :D

That is absolutely filthy nice. Reminds me of some of the parts I've gotten after 2ndgenguy worked over a 2G hatch. All very familiar, but you are going to another level with that swap! Damn, I thought adding factory cruise was a wiring nightmare. Keep us posted man. That is some fine work so far.

Thumbs up for getting all that work done! That's quite a handfull

Excellent! You beat me to it!

What did you use for the pressure/return lines? I was considering plumbing in an additional hard line for pressure, and using the factory supply as return. I'm not sure if you answered this already.

What are your plans for a working VSS?

Did you need to pull the side bracket off of the ES2 and replace the one on the A20? Its the one with the 2 bolts that goes under the timing belt cover.

I'm doing the same kind of thing with the wiring harnesses as well. I planned on keeping absolutely everything not engine related on the original harness, and paring down the 3g harness to just run the engine. I planned on using the choke light on my cluster as a "check engine light", and just wiring it directly to the ECU.

For pressure I reused the stock hard line, I got some 100psi fuel injection hose and am using that to connect the pump to the hard line and the hardline to the a20 fuel filter feed line. I used double clamps to secure the hose to the hard line and once I get it running I will be able to tell you if it actually doesnt leak. ;-)

For the return I'm just going to run a low pressure fuel hose from the front to back. It's hooked up to the tank I just need to decide if I want to run it through the interior, or underbody.

I'm using the es2 transmission and have the speed sensor cable hooked in just like stock so I shouldnt have any problems with the speedo, unless I'm missing something?

I basicly took all the brackets off the es2 and put them on the a20, I didnt test if I could reuse some of the a20 ones.

Since I'm stuck in cali for a few weeks before I can go back I'm having my dad send me the wiring harness so I can build it here using wiring diagrams and basicly have it ready to drop in next time I visit.

When you go to pull the 3g harness out, take a sawzall and enlarge those chassis holes it runs through. Specificaly the one at the passenger foot well and the one near the fusebox in the bay, it is seriously a pain in the ass to get it out otherwise.

The ECU requires a functioning VSS or it will set a trouble code.

The wrecker provided me with the entire harness (sans vacuum hose hellbox and all of the sensors) and computer, so I don't have to worry about cutting firewalls to get it out.

The bracket I am referring to attaches to the front end of the engine by 2 bolts. It is accessed by removing the timing covers.

If you want a VSS, just go snag an LX gauge cluster. It will have the light for the cruise control on it. The VSS is built into the Speedo on the 84-85 cars. I believe you can get your signal from there.

Well here is another update.

I would have had this car finished this last weekend, except for the timing belt on my prelude snapping in middle-of-nowhere Oregon. I had it towed 120 miles away to my cousins shop and spent all friday fixing it, lucked out with no bent valves, threw a new head gasket and belt on and was off again.....

Then going through the same mountains I rounded a corner and came to this:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w7.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w2.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w3.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w4.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w5.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w6.jpg
Action shot with the lude:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/w1.jpg

Whats scarier then a woman driver? A woman driving a semi truck I tell you! She managed to side swipe another truck going too fast through a corner then came to a stop like this. The only thing holding the cab in that position is one of those wood pillars for the road railing.

I was first on the scene, went up to the cab. First thing I notice is she in ok, in fact she is putting on shoes and more clothes. Next thing I noticed is she did not turn off the motor! Diesel is pouring all over the road.. "This can't end well" I thought. "Turn off the motor!" ... nothing, she cant hear me over the noise of the motor! Now another guy has stopped and come up to the cab and me and him keep yelling at her to turn off the motor. FINALLY she gets the message and turns the damn thing off.

At this point I go around the truck and just kinda check out the situation, shes trapped in the cab for now and the other guy is talking to her. Just then a cop rolls up, my job here is done. I run to my car grab the cam snap some pics, and then get the hell out of there before I am delayed further!




Well finally after hours more on the road I make it to my parents in Washington, at this point I've pretty much lost a days work....

Now for the actual work I did on the accord.

Having already stripped lots out of the harness here is where I started:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/14.jpg

Here are the 3 ECU plugs. Basicly all I did was bust out the 88 fuel-injection wiring diagram and trace each wire out of the plugs and made sure it "went" somewhere and I hadnt accidentally cut it.
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/10.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/11.jpg

Most of the narness is self-contained, About 5 - 6 wires needed to be spliced into the 84's system in some way. 3-4 that need to be fused and hooked up to power for the main relay and ECU power, then the speed sensor wire, and the fuel pump power wire out of the main relay. Then there are a few things to do with the harness in the engine bay, but those are simple.
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/12.jpg

Left-overs:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/13.jpg

So how far DID I get? Damn close, the car runs, drives, and is put back in one piece. I have a few misc. things to finish like a proper fuel pump mount, etc. It sucks cause it's about 1 days work, I would be done if not for those issues when I drove up! :violin:

More pics:

She wants to be unleashed:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/1.jpg

Everything works:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/2.jpg

Fuel return hose routing, may change this later:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/3.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/4.jpg

Interior shot. On the dash there is a digital clock I snagged off a junked 84 at my dealership, still need to install that. I've also got to put in the radio from my 3gee:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/5.jpg

So what did I do about the speed sensor input for the ECU? Well I just tapped into the VSS that my carb. car has. Yeah the carb. cars have 'em too, the only ones that may not have it would be ones that did not come with cruise control...
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/6.jpg
Bam, done:
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/7.jpg

Mounted ECU, you cant even tell it's there once eveything is installed.
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/8.jpg
http://mustardcat.brinkster.net/blog/85accord/3/9.jpg

nice work man....true inspiration.