Printable View
I have an 89 accord lxi and have a question MAYBE someone can answer. There is this E85 out that is 85% ethanol and is rated at 100 octane. Why can't our cars run it? Can we convert our cars to run on it? What would it take. 100 octane would take alot of my wories about detonation in my hi-compression engine. Can Anybody help me?
Our cars cannot run it because our engines are not designed to handle the corrosive nature of ethanol alcohol. It is not possible to convert our cars to run on E85. Nor is it possible to simply dump E85 into the tank and expect to work. In order to do so you would have to completely redesign the ENTIRE engine, add new sensors, a new ECU that could detect when E85 is being ran through the system and adjust the idle and air/fuel mixture, and a host of other things. If you want a engine that will run E85 buy a flex-fuel car or truck.Quote:
Originally Posted by azazel_18_2
A buddy with a 89 LXi hatch has used the E85 with mixed results with his Honda. It didn't start exactly right, and didn't give as good of gas mileage as with the normal gas. He has used E 85 with good results with some other vehicles, mostly GM with the 3.8l.
Any comments, suggestions? Thanks. mk
as far as i know GM is the only one that made their cars to use both E85 and/or regular gas.
DO NOT PUT AN ALCOHOL BASED FUEL LIKE E85 IN ANY OLD CAR.
In order to use E85 safely and without problems you must have flex fuel technology, like some of those new SUV's made by GM.
Use E85 and expect your car to run like shit, then possibly blow the motor.
nissan titans can run on e85 i think
Ford Taurus has E85 flex too. Does anyone know what the flex capability consists of?
There is a good article about flex fuel vehicles in the lates Popular Mechanics. Voiceinurhead is absolutely right. DO NOT try to use E85 in your old Honda. It may very well run on it, but cars made to run on this fuel have to have special components to deal with the highly corrosive effects of alcohol fuel. This stuff will rust your fuel tank, deteriorate your hoses, and damage your injectors or carb. It results in lower emissions, but it also has a significantly lower energy content than gasoline so your performance and fueld economy will be drastically different, anyway.
You can run it, but you have to do some preparation first. There's some info on it on megasquirts site http://www.megasquirt.info/flexfuel.htm along with an explaniation of how flex works. I'd convert and run it if e85 were avaialbe near me. (weber carbs are alcohol rated, all I'd need is a fuel cell). That stuff is 105 octane, up near race gas terrority. But you need a fuel tank, injectors, and pump that are alcohol rated and you have to get all of the natural rubber out of your fuel system, including o-rings and seals. Alcohol will break down the natural rubber and causes mild steel to rust very quickly. It also burns at a diferent afr so you need to recalibrate your fuel map a bit or you'll be running way too lean. And of course your fuel milage will drop because you have to inject more alcohol to get the proper afr then you did gas.
andy
those alky mixes are corrosive as hell and tend to run like shit. Dont run that stuff or itll eat through your fuel system... pretty much any and all of it. Nasty stuff
I'm all for it..you can run higher compression and way more fuel because E-85 needs almost half the air to burn as gasoline. What's the biggest power restriction on any engine? Airflow. With alcohol, you need less, so you can make more power with what you have.
My grandfather was in the dry cleaning business. During WWII and all the gas rationing he used to burn benzene (dry cleaning fluid) in his car when gasoline was not available. See that; flex fuel is not a new concept at all. :)
I have been running 50% Ethanol in my 1988 Accord Lxi. It runs great and smells like a race car. I simply pump half E10 and half E85. Any car that is computer controlled, has fuel injection, and is properly tuned (not running on CPU default values) can run at least 30% Ethanol. Any more than 50% will damage the little rubber seals in your fuel system. They say Ethanol doesn't like cold weather but my Lxi runs fine bone cold at @ 23deg F. Don't laugh but I swear it's faster on the alcohol, I guess my CPU has adjusted a little on the agressive side somehow. Lastly, expect a 10% decrease in fuel mileage @ 50% alcohol. Yes, the octane rating is very high but you have to have a high compression engine to benefit from it.
hmmm!
read this thread.
there is alot of good information here.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1812349
some guy filled up with E85 one time and his accord ran like crap. It was EFI too.
E85 fuel is shitty fuel, you don't gain any HP and your gas mileage goes down. The only benefit is polution. It is a lot cleaner.
If honda wanted i am sure they would design the engines that run on E85, but there is a reason why there are no E85 honda engines.
you just can't just put e85 in and expect it to run good.
you have to spicifically tune for it, fuel and timming.
the reason you loose gas milage is because you have to inject more fuel than you normaly would.
the upside e85 burns cooler thus making more power.
Methanol is corrosive not ethenol. One you can drink one you cant (well you go blind then dead). It just doesn't have the same BTU as gasoline does hence you need more fuel and it makes a little less power is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaltenacht
Honda has e-85 cars there becoming more popular here and very big in alotta countries. Look up brazil esp.
I would think on our cars it would benefit to go with bigger injectors.
there's a Hotrod article this month on it with a guy from Moparts on the Web - Main Index.
e85 requires nearly 2x the fuel delivery than gasoline does for the same power level, but it runs cooler so you can advance timing like crazy. It will eat up A20 fuel systems, it its possible to convert but i dont think all the time and money to do so would be worth it
Just wanted to relay a few more facts and Ill let you guys pump up your post counts with bullshit.
1 gallon 100% Gasoline contains 114,132 BTU
1 gallon of E-10 (10% ethanol) 110,308 BTU
1 gallon E-85 83,263 BTU and is 105 octane
I got this info from mopar action Feb. 2007 p. 28
paraphrasin a few other tid bits of info:
"major auto makers have found that flex fule vehicles get 24%to 32$ less milage but do actually make 5-6% more power." (p.29)
"problem with E-85 is water absorbtion. 11% water can due serious engine wear due to the formation of formic acid." p 29
"mileage worked out to be about 90% of the best gasoline milage. This is with the same compression run on gas 9.5:1 were 12:1 would be more ideal. " p79
I got all this from the mopar action (moparaction.com) article. I incorrectly stated it was HotRod and I was worng.
wp
Good info, Oldblue! Actually, over at PGMFI.org, we were doing some calculations, and found that just bumping the fuel injectors to about 330cc/min (the units from the 4G Prelude H22A1, for example) did most of the retuning work for you. Of course, there would still need to be fine tuning of the fuel tables, but it would be far less work.
Oregon Intelligent Ethanol Systems sells a Flex Kit approved by the EPA now. My neighbor installs them at his auto repair shop. I talked to him about Ethanol the other day but I don't know much about the topic. I will ask him next time if it will work on my Accord. I don't think mine will work but I will ask anyways.
Ethanol Injection System
as others have said, if you don't have a flex fuel engine, don't mess with e-85..wanna run on straight ethanol?..move to brazil. there is way too much b/s about e-85 flowing in regular channels..don't add to it. to stop importing oil from those who want to see us all dead, we have to suffer with higher food prices and a different brand of pollution.
bottom line..detroit is paying lip service until exxon is forced to make it..and we all know that isn;t happening anytime soon, we'll see shale oil before that happens and $5-6 for a gallon of gas.
the real show stopper is distribution..line LNG or propane cars..if distribution isn't there the cars have a limited appeal..and with a limited appeal, nobody is going to invest big $$ in a distribution network.
here in denmark wee pay about 6$ for a gallon.. 1 liter cost about 9 - 10 (have been around 11 kroner) kroner, which is well about 7 kr - 1 dollar..
I am getting sick of the gas prices.. when i startet runnning a moped, the gas costed a litle under a dollar per liter.. and thats not a long time ago..
Here in denmark were yelling about global warming, but we cant buy e85 or biodiesel, thus we make it in denmark?!?! no we send it to germany????
hydrogen have we niether, we have no choice, but we gonna pay a lot of taxes for the gas, and cars..
wow. a lot of argument here... heres my .02
simple facts.
ethanol is corrosive to rubber seals... so ur entire fuel system would need to be replaced if u switched ur car over...
ethanol is higher octane than your standard gasoline...which would help if ur running higher compression ratios than normal. but most of us aren't.
the stoichiometrics of ethanol require a higher fuel to air mixture.
heard of 14.7:1-thats for petrol, i its 9.7:1 for e85.
so MORE FUEL IS NEEDED to combust efficiently.
now with all that said- previous posts that i'm gonna burn because they jumped to conclusions.
kaltenacht- if a motor was designed to combust petrol- then chances are it is capable to combust e85- and yes. IT IS POSSIBLE!!!
StressSolutions-yes. ur right. ethanol runs cooler. heat is power, hence the problems with cold startups...
StressSolutions- yes i do. it is an engine management program which detects the ethanol thru a couple sensors and variates the a/f ratio to run the fuel.
DBMaster-i like what you have to say
AccordEpicenter- listen to this man, he's a genius
Kabuki-ur using ur head. i like ur way of thinking.
yes it is possible, but chances are, the upfront costs of converting ur car arent worth the gas prices...
But just to let you know... my car is running fine with 1/5 e85, 1/5 petrol.
and i did see a little top end movement out of it...
call me what you want, but do your research...
You've got it backwards there, 18.9:1 is a LEANER mixture than 14.7:1.Quote:
Originally Posted by nskforlife
You do need to burn more ethanol because of it's lesser energy per volume, as compared to gasoline. However, as ethanol needs less air to react, you can burn even more of it to utilize all of the air the engine is taking in. Consider how porting and cam regrinds can allow better airflow, which allows you to add more fuel, and create more power. Using ethanol will have a similar effect as what air you are getting means you can burn a proportionally higher quantity of fuel.
Gasoline: 20,700 BTU/lb, 14.7:1 stoich, 6 lbs/gal
Ethanol: 12,800 BTU/lb, 9.0:1 stoich, 7.60 lbs/gal
Methanol: 9,800 BTU/lb, 6.4:1 stoich, 6.60 lbs/gal
....From Hi performance Honda builder's Handbook vol. 1
I was wondering how bad Ethanol actually is for fuel systems. I know that it absorbs water and due to it's oxygen content it really promotes corrosion, but how bad can it be on any non-metal component?
This thread amazes me, I haven't read so much bs in I can't even remember how long. Even people who should know better are posting incorrect info.
My car will burn e85 when I get it going this spring, I've researched this quite a bit.
First, it takes about 1.3x, or 30% more than the volume of gasoline to produce a stoich mixture with e85. So if you were making 600whp on 1000cc injectors with race fuel, now you need 1300s. Most people just get 1600s.
However, you don't always need to run e85 at stoich..that and the increased ign advance you can use will get some of that mileage lost due to reduced btu content back.
As far as damaging steel, ie, the fuel tank, people like tony1 on h-t say that isn't true, and I'll take his word for it. The problem with the metal compatibility I see is that the fuel absorbs, or can absorb, water, and the water can cause problems with the steel. I have read about the formic acid in the oil thing, but what do flex fuel vehicles do to address that? Nothing. People say you should run anodized, not bare aluminum too, but again, haven't read about issues with stock fuel rails. Supposedly, all cars built after 1988 for sale in the U.S. have to be compatible with 10% ethanol, so the fuel lines should be fine with 85%. They're not going to make cars that are only compatible with a certain % and then the fuel lines melt, too much of a liability. My car is an 87, do I have to change all 2 feet of hoses? I don't now, but big deal if I do.
Basically, as far as running e85 in a stock vehicle not meant for it, I don't think it is worth it. Most vehicles Can do this, since the long term 02 fuel correction factor is around 30%, but it will be right on the edge of the check engine light. In order to do this, you have to slowly increase the % of e85 with each fill up. If you just go from gas to e85 in 1 fill up, the ecu will not know wtf to do, because of the narrow band 02 sensor. The reason why I say it's not worth doing though is with the stock ecu, the a/f ratio will try to be stoich, when you can run e85 leaner, and the ign timing map will be way off, nowhere near mbt for e85. So your mpg will get killed by it. However, under full throttle, despite this, most people do see an increase in power.
With programmable management, I would prefer to burn e85. Should be cheaper to use. And with a turbo setup, it is the only option for power other than race gas. People might think "only 105" octane and think they won't be able to get big power, but since it burns cooler, you can still run it with high boost. There are people on honda-tech who are making More power at the same boost over 116 octane race fuel. 600whp in a honda is totally doable with e85, and for about a third of the price of race fuel. That is extremely cool in my book.
the funny thing with this e85 you guys are talkin bout is where the ethnol comes from
chances are its made from corn which itself fucks the ground it grown in
then theres the plants that turn it into ethanol
they use more energy creating the stuff than it actually contains
then we start stickng it in our own old cars
this stuff even at 10% has been proven to be corrosive to aluminium and magnesium alloys.
and also to the older rubber and plastic hoses and seals
the japs when they built our cars( for those who have jdm cars) never designed them for ethanol in any percentage to be run in these cars
the usdm my be diff since they have had homers old gasohol for a while now and manufacturers may have modded the manufacture of materials to be more resistant to it.
but given the choice, i wouldnt touch the stuff with a zippo
there is more than enuff oil in the world to keep us all in good old fossil fuel octanes for years
we got a honda city engine ro run off alcohol we distilled. ran okay with slight carb mods. i wouldnt use it tho too much work lol. and me.. i would touch it with a zippo as long as it burned :)
well Ive been running e-85 for awhile in my dsm but I also have bigger injectors something to tune with, replaced all rubber and anodized my fuel rail. I would not run it in the honda because theres not really a need for it and it will just end up eating away at shit and running like crap.
the problem with ethanol in the tank is it's a really good solvent, when you change it over all the gunk in the tank comes loose and runs into your fuel system,the solution to this is to get a kit such as the one from eastwood, that cleans the tank to bare metal,and coats it with a sealant inside. they are really reasonably priced and it should be done on any car over 20 years old anyway. all of your rubber fuel lines will have to be replaced with lines rated for alachol, it will eat the rubber. on a stock carb car i don't think it's possible to do the conversion at all. there are way too many special wierd shaped o rings and rubber parts to find replacements. on my dual carb conversion when i get the carbs rebuilt i'm using rubber parts rated for alachol from the beginning. plus the SU design will automatically adjust itself to the correct mixture needed. and i'm already using braided lines rated to handle the stuff. remember on an efi car you will also need to find a pump rated for alachol. maby a later model honda pump would work. and you'll need to make new rubber sealing rings for the sending unit and fuel pump at the top of the tank. you can buy the rubber in sheets from companies such as MSC direct and make your own. don't forget your fuel filters, it's pretty easy to find filters rated for it from summit and jegs,plus the honda racing community has probably already got direct fits due to the drag racers. as far as stock,my book says you can use up to 10 percent. thats the owners manual. and i have an 86 carbed.
yeah ethanol is a solvent/corrosion accellerator and will eat rubber if not rated for it
it causes it to swell and poss leak which is big fire hazard
Gasoline is a pretty harsh blend of shit. I can't see why Ethanol would be so much worse on o-rings and hoses meant to tolerate gas.
it's a different type of solvent. trust me it will eat incorrect fuel system parts. thats exactly the reason parts are rated for eithier gasoline or alachol.
Nice vid on Jay leno's site about discussing E85 with Gale Banks
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/...tml?vid=190247
.
.
.
.
I been running about 20-30% since early in the spring. I mix it with 87 octane. 10 gallons to 2 gallons. No fires no explosions and my tires have not fallen off as of today. Car starts at 17 degrees F runs and idles. Warms up fine. Runs great no ping with high timimg. I get 27 mpg city prolly up 3 mpg from where I was running prememium fuel with pinging. I have a wideband i need to hook up I was not going to report in until I did but it really doesnt matter what the wide band says anyway with mixed fuel it wont read anything helpfull.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hauntd ca3
I think just about everything you wrote is bullshit. Maybe you should cite some of your sources.
Or maybe you should start reading some threads on this on honda-tech.
And I specifically want to know how it uses more energy than it provides. That would be the Only argument for using fossil fuel over this. Not the first time I've heard that either, it's one of the most common misconceptions about ethanol.
Fossil fuel results in a net gain of CO2 in our atmosphere, ethanol does not. The plants absorb the CO2 during growth, and it is released when the ethanol burns.
My opinion is its better then us using foriegn oil. Remember arabs have nothing but oil.They cant even produce there own food. If we slow the purchuse of oil from them there done. Here its cheaper than 87 octane gas has a higher octane rating then prem. fuel and as of now Im getting better mileage. So thats a win win win for eveyone except oil companies. Another big plus is the farmers finally get a chance to make a comeback after 80 years of losses. I do think there better fuels to come then from corn but this is a start and its what is needed in this country.
Yeah there might be enough oil for a while. So what. At what cost? It' a Non Renewable resource, and it's use contributes to environmental damage. People like you hold back the advancement of technology. What, do you work for an oil company?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hauntd ca3
sort off work for an oil company
spin spanners in the work shop of a country gassy/garage
down here in new zealand we have no smog or pollution probs/ apart from auckland which the rest of the country hates anyway
4.2 million people in a country the size of the uk means nice clean air
there has just been a big oil field the size of texas found 50 miles from where i am
alcohol is meant for my beer not my car"mmmmm alcomahol"
i still believe that the big oil companies could come up with a synthetic petrol the same as they have with oils
i know that synthetic oils still contain mineral oils that are modified alot with other additives etc so that only a small percentage of it is mineral oil, why not the same with gas
shell make a totally synthetic fuel for ferrari f1 team,
the corn crops that most countries including the US are using for the source material
are worse for the land than the pollution that fossil fuel creates
it takes more energy to make ethanol than it contains so is wasteful
did i mention its for my beer?
alcohol helps ugly people get laid
for an interesting sidenote,the original model t ford was designed to run on ethanol originally,then oil was discovered in PA by drake and since it was much cheaper, the enthenal idea fell by the wayside. the idea in the first place was for farmers to make their own fuel.
Well, first, I don't "sort of" work for any energy company at all. I am unbiased and seek only the real info. I thought e85 was bs at first, but then I started learning about it, and now my car will be running on it. For me, there is no alternative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hauntd ca3
Once again, cite your sources. I want to know where you got this bullshit info. And just so you know, ethanol is not always made from corn either.
Isn't it usually made from wood or other vegetation pulp? Anything that contains cellulose? I think I read that somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
You can make ethanol from anything that contains cellulose. Grass, trees, even bamboo.
Hauntd, yeah, the "synthetic" fuel would be the ethanol we're talking about here.
The only thing that a fuel will do is prolong any future ocnversion to electric cars. I'd love to be able to plug my car into my solar grid at home and drive it for free.
ok guys i may be wrong about the corn part
but it a major source since it is a very high density crop and can be grown in most climates
have seen it made from sugar beets and various canes because they have a higher sugar content which we all know is fairly important part of alcohol since ethanol is a type of alcohol.
I may work for a garage that sells fuel etc but doesnt mean i buy it just cause i work there
hell we dont even stock any oil made by this company since fuel manufacturers make shit oil.
i prefer petrol because as yet ethanol is still largely an unknown ting in terms of wear and tear and unkown if causes health probs
cahnces are it will have no health probs attributed to it i know that much.
i do know howevr that it cause accelerated wear and tear on fuel pumps and other parts of fuel systems which even include injectors
wear of engine parts has also been accepted as excessive compeared to petrol so engine life is reduced
also you cant sy that ethanol increases the octane rating because it does not contain octane of any amount
would prefer to see oil companies push lpg as a fuel instead of e anything
this is a fuel that is extremely high in octane numbers and is in the larger part just burnt off at the refinery
lpg has an octane rating of between 102 and 112 depending on the grade of oil in the field it is drawn from.
think you americans call it propane or cng
also methane is a good source of fuel energy, i think altho could be wrong this is used in propane in the states? correct me if wrong
why dont everyone buy diesils and run canola oil in them
that works if you want to be green
there is a guy in nz that has found a way to turn water into fuel
have seen the guys machine in action and it does work
he runs his buell motorbike on the stuff
i still donot believe that ethanol is the best alterative at this time.
i will find the article on ethanol blenedfuel tomorrow and post as much as i can
it is proven that there is enuff oil in canada alone to kepp the world going for best part of hunderd years
it may be in oil sands but its there
cal me old fashioned but i like fossil fuel
Oil sand extraction won't be cost effective until at LEAST $5 a gallon. At that point, pure alcohol would be a much better alternative.
Octane is simply the resistance to knock. No fuel "contains" octane.
The only thing that is even close to being an alternative is Hydrogen. Right now, most Hydrogen is produced from natural gas. Converting water to Hydrogen doesn't make for a good energy conversion.
sory didnt explain the octane bit proper
octane refers to the number of pure hydrocarbons atoms in a fuel molecule
of which there are eight
diesil has seven so has a heptane rating
simply put the more in a molecule the more volatile it is
when they test a fuel to decide its octane rating they measure it against a fuel of pure untainted hydrocarbons
they use a fangled motor that they can raise and lower the whole cylinder and head asembly to change the comp ratio until it knocks
they reference the number they come against the number from the control fuel to get the octane rating
i know that the oil in the oil sand will be expensive to extract but its there and there is lots of it
but my arguement isnt against hydrogen, its against ethanol blended fuels
following are excerpts from a motorcycling magazine article on ethanol blended fuels
an australian federal environment department report compiled by the orbital engine company noted that the additive ethanol can cause of metal partsleading to damage in fuel systems .
such as carbs,fuel pumps and lines,fuel filter and plastic tanks
it also can cause perishing of plastics and increas4s the emmission of nitrogen oxides and toxic aldehydes
the corrosion becomes critical even before the corrosive action damages the part
the particles of corrosion can plug small openings in carbs and injectors
because of ethanols solvent action, fuel lines can sweel,soften and lose strength.
plastic and fiber reinforced parts of the fuel system can become cracked and leaked creating a fire or explosion hazard
it can also cause cold starting probs,knocking and power loss
honda mpe agrees with that,citing drivability issues.
among the effects of even just e10 are loss of power,deterioration of some materials including fuel lines,seals and even some metal componants and even inlet valve damage as potential. most importantly , no issues that arise from ethanol laced fuel will be covered by warranty. " this mabe diff for honda cars but this is from a motorcycle magazine
motorcycles a much more sensitive to these things than cars but the materials used are the same
dr niven from the uni of new south wales australia agreed thateven low levels of ethanol can cause probs.
\the fact about ethanol are is its electrically conductive, promoting the corrosion of many metals, it reacts with and weakens other materials and various polymers and plastics.
when present in petrol, it increases the solubility of the petrol constituents in water, especially the more hazardous compounds such as benzene which once released/leaked or spilled, the fuel has the ability to spread more widely and the dissolved "plume" of benzene and related compounds can be twice as large.
it worth noting that these probs seem to apply even with realitively low concentrations of ethanol.
as for the contention that ethanol is the eco sound answer to the fuel crisis, consider this
part of the relatively high expense of producing ethanol is the cost ofthe fossil fuels used in the process.
david pimintel from cornell uni in the states who chaired a dept of energy panel on the subject points out that 131000 btu's are requierd to produce one gallon of ethanol where that same gallon only has an energy value of 77000 btu.
so it takes about 70% more energy to produce than it contains which is why fossil fuels are used in the production.
the growers cant afford to burn ethanol to produce it.
the cost isnt the only prob
he points out that corn production in the us errodes the soil about 12 times faster than it can be reformed.
and irrigation mines ground water 25% faster than natural recharge.
so the environment that its being grown in is rapidly degrading so should not be considered as a feedsource.
I ADMIT I GOT THE BIT BOUT CORN WRONG EARILER
additionally,pimintel has calculated the area that would be needed to make the us for example independant of fossil fuels and energy secure if all cars were fuel purely by ethanol.
a total of 97% of us land area would be neededto plant corn to supply feed stock.
there would be no room for anything but corn and roads.
My own arguement was the damage that it does to engines and ot the environment.
never listen to what the govt feed you coz we all know is usually a load of bullshit.
listen to overseas studies instead of homegrown studies
ethanol/metahnol may be good for high performace work if you can burn enuff of it and afford to rebuild engine and fuel systems regularly
but for everydaay use it has proved so far to be not the best idea.
even the germans who are apparently the best engineers in the world are having trobles with the wear and tear and even getting emissions to euro standards
am not saying its a bad idea . just not yet and not in old cars such as our 1,2 and 3geez
unless you want to risk serious engine degradation
i myself love the engines more than the cars and wouldnt want to do anything to shorten its life.
take it as you want but until E blended fuels are proven safe to engines and fuel systems in the long term and by that i mean ten to fifteen years without failure attributed to the fuel
i'll be staying away
would rather drive a prius
Anyone else want to refute this? I just don't give a fuck anymore. If it was such a waste, why would are people putting so much $ into its developement?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hauntd ca3
And as far as the octane, e85 is has a rating or 105. End of story.
And what about Brazil? Don't they run all of their vehicles on ethanol, without gvt subsidies? And haven't they done that for the last 20 years or so?
Brazil also uses compressed natural gas and Propane.
As cited above: "And as far as the octane, e85 is has a rating or 105. End of story."
Again, corn isn't the only feedstock available. Pretty much any cellulose structure can be used. Sugar, algae, trees, the list goes on. Algae is a good place to look, as some strains grow very quickly.
Germans the best engineers in the world? Why can't they build a reliable car? THAT is why they're having wear issues. The can't get a gasoline engine to last, much less ethanol. Strangely, they can build diesels, but that's neither here nor there.
Also, most companies don't seem to be using alcohol rated parts. A few years ago, this was common. Now, not so much.
To recap:
1. Stop assuming corn is the only feedstock
2. Cite more current data
3. We're running out of oil, plain and simple. Supply and demand. Gasoline will reach the point where no one can afford it, and the global economy would begin to collapse. We have to research alternative NOW, not when we deplete the oil from the earth's crust.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hauntd ca3
Diesel fuel is rated by Cetane number. It ranges from 30-70 points, and equates inversely to the "wax" content of the fuel, and proportionally to the combustability. Lower cetane fuels are harder to ignite, but contain more combustive energy per volumetric unit. Higher rated fuels also experience less ignition delay, and are quieter and faster burning.
The thing people have to remember about petroleum is that it's in a sense a free ride, in that it contains more stored energy than it takes to refine into fuel. So the whole infrastructure is self sustaining. The rub is that it took millions of years for nature to concentrate all of that energy into a such a wonderful fuel source. With ethanol you only have the lifespan of the feedstock to store energy into, so it's not going to be as concentrated as petroleum. And it will likely always take more energy to refine ethanol than you will get from it as a fuel. It IS however renewable and carbon neutral in itself. So it won't release any carbon that was previously sequestered in the form of petroleum. The trick will be to come up with a maximally efficient refining process for ethanol that can be supplemented with other clean energy sources (solar, wind, geothermal) to create a self sustaining system. But the research has to start now so that we have time to get to where we need to be before it's too late.
Ethanol isn't the only answer though. There is also biodiesel and vegetable oil. And maybe eventually hydrogen if we can figure out an efficient process for production.
C|
I always though that someone should build a big barge covered in solar panels, and stick it in the south caribbean where it just floats around and electrolyzes hydrogen and oxygen from seawater. Release the O2 to the atmosphere, take the free fuel and lower ocean levels while you're at it! ....maybe I'm just drunk, but it could work.Quote:
Originally Posted by cygnus x-1
Not such a bad idea really. The next thing would be to find cheap and compact way to store and transport it. Compressing it takes lots of energy. Metal hydrides maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by guyhatesmycar
C|
That Cornel study is correct as far as I can see but it was done in 1984 its just quoted,or misquoted, since its negative of Ethanol in general.
Brazil uses there sugar cane to make ethanol.Its a buy product they otherwise would have to dispose of by burning or burying.
I didnt bother reading his enitre write up at this time but I will when I have time to waste.
I guess my question is if I went with 330cc injectors for ethanol could I run plain gas,E-10 as well if I can't find any E-85? Sorry to get back on topic.
I wonder if you can absorb it into a carrier somewhat like acetylene is dissolved in acetone?Quote:
Originally Posted by cygnus x-1
That's what metal hydrides are.Quote:
Originally Posted by guyhatesmycar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage
C|
330cc is huge for a stock engine. From working with my Megasquirt I found that even with stock 240cc injectors the pulse width at idle is almost as short as it can get. With larger injectors it will be even worse. One thing that would probably help is a rising rate pressure regulator. This way at idle the pressure can be low enough to not dump in too much fuel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldblueaccord
C|
didnt realise that the cornel study was so old.
brazil duz use alot of ethanol but production costs are way low there because labour is cheap as.
they're still by and large a developing country with a large percentage of the population living in the jungle and slums and they'l work for nuthin and thatkeeps the cost down.
go to a developed country where no one gets outta bed for less thn 12 dollars an hour and things change
i realise my last post was pretty long but there was a bit to say.
am still a believer in fossil fuels at the mo but as technology advances i might change.
if they can find a way to less the corrosive effects of ethanol i'm sure i will become more wide spread.
new zealand is only just starting to look at e10 so is stil a way off yet.
Many people with high hp setups run the rc 1000cc injectors with stock fuel press. The idle isn't that great, but it's still doable. Most people say you can idle nicely on 750s. That has been my observation/experience too. So what is going on with your megasquirt? The oem honda ecu doesn't even have a true peak and hold driver circuit, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by cygnus x-1
And I'm glad someone mentioned how old that cornell study was. Certainly takes a little air out of hauntd ca3's sails.
Here's one link to some info on this.http://zfacts.com/p/83.html The real advances will come from using plants other than corn, and from not using fossil fuels or coal during ethanol's manufacture. Wind farms get my vote. It sucks that this is so heavily subsidized, also, most of that just ends up as profits.
Tuner Tools - Automotive Tuning and Diagnostics
Thinking this would be cool if they did 99 Astro vans.
With what engine? Surely not a 2.0L? And what kind of engine management?Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
Peak and hold has nothing to do with it. That's just a type of injector driver. Whether the injectors are high or low impedance they have a given opening time that the ECU has to account for to get the pulse width right. What I don't know is how the stock Honda ECUs handle injector timing. The Megasquirt has different injector stagings you can use; 2, 4, or 8 squirts per engine cycle, with alternating or simultaneous firing of the two injector batches. At a minimum the injectors will fire once per cylinder combustion event. If the Honda ECU can fire less often than that then you could use larger injectors. I would expect the idle to be not very smooth though if the injectors were firing less than once per cylinder combustion event. I guess if you set the AFR way rich and crank up the idle speed you might be able to get a passable idle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
Anyone know how PGMFI does injector staging?
C|
The most common is the all too popular ls/vtec or gsr with the gt35r. 600whp, the walbro right at it's limit, and the rc 1000s. Nothing unusual there, 1.8-2L, depending on the bore. Management is the typical obd-1 oem ecu chipped with crome, neptune, hondata s300, whatever.
As far as peak and hold, that doesn't apply directly to your problem, but for possible future reference, if you connect a resistor in series with a low impedance injector and a normal on/off injector driver, (saturated) there is no way you'll have the control over it that you'd have with a true peak and hold driver. The reason is the peak current across the coil of the injector will be nowhere near as high.
Okay, I can already feel myself starting to get a headache thinking about this, but if you can't get your setup to work sequentially..ok, it takes 720* crank rotation for 1 cyl to complete its cycle, 4 cyls, fire every 180*. If you fire all the injectors once every 720, all the cylinders would get fuel, but it would arrive at a different part of the cycle for each cyl. Is this what you meant by firing less than once per combustion event? Probably the way I'd do it if I couldn't do true sequential though, because if you fired the injectors every 360* or 180*, if they were sized small enough to be able to idle properly, under load or higher rpm, you'd run out of fuel. (The injectors would be spending just as much time opening and closing as spraying.) I don't know exactly when the honda ecu fires the injectors with reference to crank position, but it is a true sequential setup, each injector firing every 720*, 180* apart. Hope this helps..
I suppose you could also set it up to fire every 360, alternating the 2 drivers so the cylinders would get the fuel closer on the same cycle, degree wise. But I don't see it making that much of a difference that way or all at once every 720..
Who knows, all I know is I'd only use a chipped obd-1 ecu. Fuck megasquirt. How did they come up with that name anyway, they were drinking and had to take a ..mega..squirt? I'm calling it megapiss from now on.
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/fe...-biofuels-okd/
Pretty good article on switchgrass.
I'd be willing to try 330 cc injectors. It kinda sucks since I got brand new RC 240's in a box but maybe they would trade me out right for the 330's. I would be interested to see if this is doable.
Oh. That's a completely different realm. I was thinking more of stock like engines. When you said "high hp" you meant HIGH HP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
True. Opening time will be slow because of the low current. Incidentally I'm running high impedance injectors at the moment. And they work fine. Opening time is set for 1.2ms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
What I meant by firing less than once per combustion cycle was firing less than once per 720*. But it would probably run like crap so forget about that. Right now mine is setup for 4-alternating. Which means every 180*, two injectors fire, either 1 and 4, or 2 and 3. And they alternate. This does make the injectors spend more time opening and closing, but it also runs smoother than say 2-alternating, which is the same thing but every 360*. With larger injectors I would have to run 2-alternating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
It does. I didn't know that PGMFI was true sequential. That's cool that Honda was doing that back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
Incidentally the MS guys are working on sequential injection. I think it supposed to be ready very soon.
C|
360 alternating: Yes, and that's the way many people run it. It will actually do 720* simultaneous, but I've never heard of anyone doing that. It would run but probably not as smooth. It would depend on the particular engine setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
I know very little of Honda ECUs and OBD1, so I can't make a comparison. I do know that I like the MS, however the typical Honda enthusiast would likely be better served with an OBD1 conversion. Mostly because local tech support will be more available. MS is more of a general purpose ECU that can be used for anything from a 3HP Briggs to a huge V8 or better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
The name is odd though. No doubt there.
C|
More on the 720* simultaneous vs 360* alernating, did you know that mechanical injection systems, like on old airplanes, just spray continuously into each intake port? The fuel flow is completely pressure dependent, and those motors run and idle fine. So maybe the timing of the pulsewidth isn't absolutely crucial.
I believe alternating injector drivers every 360 would be the best way to do it, if you pair the right cylinders together. Why cycle the injectors more than you have to..
Were you able to verify a difference in idle/running alternating with 360 vs 180 deg? (With the same a/f ratio)?
I would find that surprising.
So why didn't you just do the typical chipped obd-1 ecu? I'll probably just bite the bullet and get the s300.
I've heard of mechanical injection systems but never thought much about them. I totally understand what you mean though. Carbs are the same way. Fuel is continuously drawn into the system in response to vacuum. They have no concept of crank timing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
Probably the majority of people running MS run this way (360-alt). Largely because it's the default and it works. For turbo applications it's just about the only way to go. With 180* alternating you lose some "dynamic range" of the injectors so to speak. So for a given set of injectors the maximum fuel output is lower and the minimum fuel output is higher. Lately though more people have been experimenting with 180* alternating or even 180* simultaneous (all fire at once). 180* simultaneous is difficult though because you need lower flow injectors. It all depends on the particular application.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
A little. The difference is not so much with the idle, although it is a tad smoother. It's more noticeable in the throttle response and AFR. Response feels faster and the AFR seems to be controlled better in relation to the target AFR under changing load conditions. Under steady load and throttle I doubt I could tell the difference. This is hard to test though because there are so many other variables, and when you change injector staging the fuel map has to be adjusted. I could create separate configuration files and just switch back and forth to test. But in the end it's not THAT big a deal I would rather spend my time working on getting the timing dialed in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
Unfortunately the only real way to do this is to get some time in on a loaded dyno. Which around here seems to be rare and insanely expensive. I'm open to any suggestions about dialing in timing. :)
Mostly because I just didn't know anything about OBD swaps. I'm fairly new to the Honda world and my car is a 2g Prelude that had those wacky dual carbs, which is like OBD "-1", meaning extra crappy. When I rebuilt the engine I first put on a Weber 38/38 because it was simple and easy. Then I heard about the MS and it just seemed like a cool idea, and a fun project. I like how all the schematics are openly published, as well as the firmware source code. And if I ever wanted to I could reuse the ECU for a totally different car. It's good stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accordtheory
C|
Still going at 30%. I cant believe it been 4 years.
Anyone running 100%?
yup.
Still rolling 100%.
I think my original fuel pump is finally going to bite it. Not holding pressure after about 5 mins off. Little hard starting in the AM. I got a new Walbro pump, F90000267, but I may disconnect the gauge I have on the fuel filter to see if its the leak path. Need to upgrade the fuel pump wiring other wise that pump pulls 15 amps at 40 psi.
Interested to see what the tank looks like inside.
I pulled the tank on another car I run 50/50 and it was just an old galvanized tank. It looked good. Very clean which I was surprised.
Still one of my all time fav. threads on here....the 06 stuff is just priceless.
I got some gas tank pics ill post up from the old Honda....its horrible....tanks as clean as a whistle. Fuel pump started to not hold pressure off...again horrible after 32 years and 335k miles.
