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Thread: other ECM options

  1. #1

    NXRacer's Avatar
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    Exclamation other ECM options

    So i've been thinking, since Seans setup is no longer an option i've been thinking about what else we could use to control timing and fuel for turbo and other high performance setups. Although that apparently was a good setup, there are a lot of other options out there for cheaper. A LOT of people have been using Uberdata and Hondata for a long time and from everybody i've seen/heard using it, they've had pretty good results. Lots of people are using it now to turbo the F22's which is a pretty similar engine to ours. (~2liter, SOHC etc etc).

    My biggest problem i have right now is trying to find the code so i can import it to Uber/Hondata. I think that if i could get this, i have a few people i know that are really good with tuning in uberdata and hondata and i could probably get a good setup up and working. The best thing is that all you have to do is buy a blank chip and a chipable ecu (civics would plug right in to our wiring harness) and away you go. All you need is to know/find somebody who has a burner. I know of a couple people that will burn a chip for you and send it back ready to go.

    I know that AEM and a couple other companies have stand alone systems that you can wire up, but i know for a fact that most members here can't afford $1500 for an ECM system and those that do probably wouldnt mind paying a small fraction of that price for a system that works (from what i've heard) just as good.

    discuss
    -- Caleb --
    Nothin' 2 Old Racing



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    you still have to modify the distributor/ignition system regardless of whatever you do, because the 86-89 accord does not have computer controlled timing. (centrifugal/vacuum control) I tried to fit a couple computer controlled distributors from other hondas with no success. If you modify (lock) the distributor's advance mechanism, intercept the signal from the ignitor, send it to the ecm, then back from the ecm to power the coil, you have computer controlled timing. I don't know how much wiring would be involved to run a different computer, but my friend changed the harness/computer on a crx to run the si engine and it was a TOTAL pain in the ass, all the wiring in the dash had to be changed too. I was sort of considering an integra harness so I could run the AEM EMS..but I can't afford that shit right now, and I still don't know exactly how to intercept the signal from the ignitor, or even what kind of signal the integra ecm is supposed to see from the distributor. Another option would be a system like the tec3 that uses distributorless ignition, but I doubt anyone on this forum will ever buy one, as they cost like over $2k. Probably what I will end up doing in the meantime before I sue Sean and force him to extract his head from his ass and send me my shit is going back to my previous supplemental injection setup, tuned with a wideband, and a boost dependent ignition retard. A lot of people use the J&S safeguard for ignition control, but it doesn't have it's own coil driver circuit, you have to use an ignition amplifier or another ignitor. I couldn't get it to work properly though, and I never figured out why.

  3. #3

    NXRacer's Avatar
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    what all dizzy's have you tried? I thought that the integra dizzy's worked and they were computer controlled? I think our biggest problem is that too many people here rely on other people to do all the work for them and dont try to do things on their own.
    -- Caleb --
    Nothin' 2 Old Racing

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    A20A1's Avatar
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    What about Openloop who used the 4th gen distributor? is that comp controlled?

    Also look in the FAQ turbo link in my sig, I listed a bunch of companies offering standalone.
    - llia


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    I think the ones I tried were from a civc, integra, and a crx. They were just lying around in my friend's garage. He has a lot of honda shit. I haven't tried the 4th gen accord distributor yet though.

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    - llia


  7. #7
    DX User ET2's Avatar
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    If you want total control of your system this is the best way to go
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...sPageName=WDVW
    http://www.centuryperformance.com/de...uct_id=MAL-685
    your looking at about $820 dollars + shipping but with this setup you can run anything except vtec thats $200 more, good luck peace out party on

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    Anything is possible but money can be an issue for a lot of people. If you get a conversion harness you can run pretty much any system if you modify the distributor or go with a coil on plug conversion and go distributorless. Im using the AEM EMS with a conversion harness and later will be doing the coil on plug conversion if i feel need be.

    If i were to do a low boost A20A3 setup i would most likely use a SAFC to control the fuel and a MSD BTM for spark. There are many cheap ways to do it. Justin used a BTM and a FMU and some check valves. I was surprised he used the FMU becuase his fuel pressure was so high on high boost but he proved it worked fine. But i think the average person here wanting to boost would do a low boost setup and that would work fine.
    Last edited by RobT5580; 08-25-2004 at 06:56 PM.

  9. #9
    DX User ET2's Avatar
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    Your right but how long will that ghetto setup last, if your going to spend the money buy a piece at a time and do it right in the long run you'll be better off but thats imo

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    Well i was just giving some good choices that will work fine on a low boost setup. I went the extra mile maybe 2 seeing how i have over 10k into my setup. But that was only possible because i made some good money this summer that was never expected. Realistically i know a lot of people here were in the same boat as i was working full time along with going to school, girlfriend, bills, etc so i know its hard to spend that kind of money on a project. But i also have a lot pushing me since im in my last year of college and i will be putting all of my money into my business upon graduation and i know it will be awhile before i get into another big project like this. But this should keep me busy for a while as i have to do the body and interior which will be peanuts compared to the engine work.

    But if you can do it i suggest taking the time and doing a nice setup on a built bottom end and a decent EMS. I thought it was going to be hard getting parts for the B20A but there was only one part i could not get. Every manufacturer i sent a sample to matched it up or made one for me and most were very reasonable. The only part i couldnt get was a 3-layer metal head gasket from Cometic so i settled for a copper one because i know the stock wont take high boost. I spent a year on this project and it will be done very shortly but it was well worth the wait now that i see all the good parts that went into this engine.

  11. #11
    DX User ET2's Avatar
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    It's all in how much control you want

  12. #12

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    i think you guys are really thinking too hard about this. If we can figure out how to get the code out of the A20 ECU (or b20 for that matter) and convert to non-vacuum advance dizzy, fine engine control is easy. Hondata/Uberdata is super easy to use and control. And for the people who don't have access to a tuner/dyno etc they can just use the code thats already been tuned and proven to work.

    One good thing about doing the hond/uberdata is that we can wire up a knock sensor which is a VERY good thing for those that are going with boost.

    My only problem is that i've been searching all around and can't seem to find somebody who can get the code out. The F22 dizzy may be a really good alternative.
    -- Caleb --
    Nothin' 2 Old Racing

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    You can go with the cheaper route with the FMU, BTM, and check valves and you will be fine. And they now make an adjustable FMU which is even better. JonnyO modified his A20 distributor for use with the haltech and im sure it can be done for other systems. But you already know the FMU, BTM and check valves work fine because thats how Justin had his setup for the whole time it was on the road.

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    it is very easy to control the ignition. Crane cams makes a kit that will convert our dizy to fully digital one. you won't even have the vacuum lines. crane Hi6S will do the ignition control for you. you can plug in 3bar map sensor to it and it will retart the timing according to your setting.
    as for fuel. simple Apexi SAFC, air fuel ratio gauge and FMU
    Alex.

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    Shepherd, Is that only for boosted EFI?
    What about N/A carbed cars, do we still need the map sensor?
    If so can we hook up a universal map and go form there?
    Last edited by A20A1; 08-26-2004 at 02:22 PM.
    - llia


  16. #16
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    you still have to modify the distributor/ignition system regardless of whatever you do, because the 86-89 accord does not have computer controlled timing. (centrifugal/vacuum control) I tried to fit a couple computer controlled distributors from other hondas with no success. If you modify (lock) the distributor's advance mechanism, intercept the signal from the ignitor, send it to the ecm, then back from the ecm to power the coil, you have computer controlled timing. I don't know how much wiring would be involved to run a different computer, but my friend changed the harness/computer on a crx to run the si engine and it was a TOTAL pain in the ass, all the wiring in the dash had to be changed too. I was sort of considering an integra harness so I could run the AEM EMS..but I can't afford that shit right now, and I still don't know exactly how to intercept the signal from the ignitor, or even what kind of signal the integra ecm is supposed to see from the distributor. Another option would be a system like the tec3 that uses distributorless ignition, but I doubt anyone on this forum will ever buy one, as they cost like over $2k.
    All of this is true, and adapting an ecu and retuning everything just to get ahold of timing issues isnt worth it... Im gonna run an MSD BTM... any decent ignition box out there these days (made by MSD, CRANE, Jacobs etc) can be setup for some kind of boost retard adjustment... For a standard MSD BTM you can get on ebay for $100, it beats trying to get a hacked up wiring harness/ecu/distributor to work, esp for low boost... If you need to go stand alone you might need to do what johnny did and run some kind of standalone, Electromotive or Haltech probably.
    429whp 362wtq A20 TURBO. A20T>*

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by A20A1
    Shepherd, Is that only for boosted EFI?
    What about N/A carbed cars, do we still need the map sensor?
    If so can we hook up a universal map and go form there?
    since the map sensor connects to the ignition box and not the ECU, you should be able to get away with it on carbed motors.
    this is what i have http://www.cranecams.com/?show=brows...mber=6000-6300

    you can download the manual from here http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/90006300a.pdf

    to convert to digital ignition you can use this http://www.cranecams.com/?show=brows...umber=700-2292
    or this http://www.cranecams.com/?show=brows...umber=700-0292

    to use the retard function you will need this http://www.cranecams.com/?show=brows...mber=9000-0100
    with map sensor http://www.cranecams.com/?show=brows...mber=9000-0110


    if you are going to try to use this system i would highly recomend to call the crane tech support and ask them what exactly you will need.
    i hope that helped.
    Alex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NXRacer
    i think you guys are really thinking too hard about this. If we can figure out how to get the code out of the A20 ECU (or b20 for that matter) and convert to non-vacuum advance dizzy, fine engine control is easy. Hondata/Uberdata is super easy to use and control. And for the people who don't have access to a tuner/dyno etc they can just use the code thats already been tuned and proven to work.

    One good thing about doing the hond/uberdata is that we can wire up a knock sensor which is a VERY good thing for those that are going with boost.

    My only problem is that i've been searching all around and can't seem to find somebody who can get the code out. The F22 dizzy may be a really good alternative.
    Problem with our ECU is that it is not chippable, so codes are useless. There are a couple of folks on PGMFI.org that are experimenting with a type of piggyback system, but have had no luck to date. Either way, they are not using our one of a kind PJ-0, so we are pretty much out of luck with that. Uberdata is really setup for OBD-1 anyway. Turboedit would be the way to go for OBD-0.

    My plan for boost is to use a P-75 ECU from an Integra with a 4th gen. Accord distributor, and 4-wire O2 sensor. This is the same setup that Darryl from Openloop uses on his car, and according to him, it works great. I've already got someone who can do the conversion harness, and after that, it should just be a matter of making a bracket for the dizzy, and a couple plug changes on the engine harness for the dizzy and O2 sensor. This will basically be an OBD-0 to OBD-1 conversion, and will allow the use of free software such as Uberdata. It is a much less expensive way to go, and should be just about infinitly tunable with Uberdata software.

    Wish me luck!
    "Feed their greed with your need for speed"

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robs89LXi
    Problem with our ECU is that it is not chippable, so codes are useless. There are a couple of folks on PGMFI.org that are experimenting with a type of piggyback system, but have had no luck to date. Either way, they are not using our one of a kind PJ-0, so we are pretty much out of luck with that. Uberdata is really setup for OBD-1 anyway. Turboedit would be the way to go for OBD-0.

    My plan for boost is to use a P-75 ECU from an Integra with a 4th gen. Accord distributor, and 4-wire O2 sensor. This is the same setup that Darryl from Openloop uses on his car, and according to him, it works great. I've already got someone who can do the conversion harness, and after that, it should just be a matter of making a bracket for the dizzy, and a couple plug changes on the engine harness for the dizzy and O2 sensor. This will basically be an OBD-0 to OBD-1 conversion, and will allow the use of free software such as Uberdata. It is a much less expensive way to go, and should be just about infinitly tunable with Uberdata software.

    Wish me luck!
    what i like to know, is where the heck are you going to mount the knock sensor?
    Alex.

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    The knock sensor is easy to mount. I mounted mine in a whole for the breather and it works as the knock and holds the breather in place. You guys can still run a knock sensor if you get a special controller (cant recall the name) but tom@ludespeed told me about it before. It was able to retard the timing and watched for knock. There are many choices available and its all about how much power you want and your wallet.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobT5580
    The knock sensor is easy to mount. I mounted mine in a whole for the breather and it works as the knock and holds the breather in place. You guys can still run a knock sensor if you get a special controller (cant recall the name) but tom@ludespeed told me about it before. It was able to retard the timing and watched for knock. There are many choices available and its all about how much power you want and your wallet.
    where did you mount it again? Breather? which one?
    the knock sensor should be mounted in the block somewhere for more accurate reading.
    Alex.

  22. #22
    SEi User Low Tek's Avatar
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    man.. I am soo screwed, I have no clue what any of your are talkin about.. I mean, I know what a knock sensor, and a map sensor is, but when it comes to wireing, I have no clue
    'honda makes people happy'

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    Its on the block where the breather tank is on the back. Its probably the best place to do it since the block is already tapped but you will have to re-size it since the knock thread is bigger. I know the A20A3 has a similar setup as my B20A so it should work out for you guys as well.

    And Low Tek you dont need all of this stuff being talked about. The stock map sensor is fine for under 10PSI and the knock is more of a safety device. If you wanted a basic low boost setup I would get a MSD BTM ignition and a Vortech FMU to control the fuel. You also really should use a wide band O2 to be sure your air/fuel ratio is correct. That is about as basic as you can go in our situation. And for wiring you would only have to wire up the ignition for the most part which has a FAQ about it.

    Oh and that product for the knock sensor was called the J&S Safeguard so if anyone is interested they can look it up. Iv never used this so i cant give any feedback on it as tom recommended it when using a stock ECU.

  24. #24
    SEi User Low Tek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobT5580
    And Low Tek you dont need all of this stuff being talked about. The stock map sensor is fine for under 10PSI and the knock is more of a safety device. If you wanted a basic low boost setup I would get a MSD BTM ignition and a Vortech FMU to control the fuel. You also really should use a wide band O2 to be sure your air/fuel ratio is correct. That is about as basic as you can go in our situation. And for wiring you would only have to wire up the ignition for the most part which has a FAQ about it.
    but the thing is, I was plannin to boost more then 10, more like 20PSI at the track and 15 on the street
    'honda makes people happy'

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    You can still do that but you will need to upgrade the map sensor or use check valves like Justin did. If you were on a budget i would get a SAFC, MSD, BTM, and some sort of a wideband to make sure the air/fuel is fine. You dont have to chip the ECU like other want and i would preffer the SAFC becuase you can adjust it as of burning a new chip. There are many ways to do it but the most critical part is the air to fuel ratio.

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