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Thread: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

  1. #26

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    You do need to burn more ethanol because of it's lesser energy per volume, as compared to gasoline. However, as ethanol needs less air to react, you can burn even more of it to utilize all of the air the engine is taking in. Consider how porting and cam regrinds can allow better airflow, which allows you to add more fuel, and create more power. Using ethanol will have a similar effect as what air you are getting means you can burn a proportionally higher quantity of fuel.

    Gasoline: 20,700 BTU/lb, 14.7:1 stoich, 6 lbs/gal
    Ethanol: 12,800 BTU/lb, 9.0:1 stoich, 7.60 lbs/gal
    Methanol: 9,800 BTU/lb, 6.4:1 stoich, 6.60 lbs/gal

    ....From Hi performance Honda builder's Handbook vol. 1

    I was wondering how bad Ethanol actually is for fuel systems. I know that it absorbs water and due to it's oxygen content it really promotes corrosion, but how bad can it be on any non-metal component?
    Last edited by Ichiban; 07-09-2007 at 04:49 PM.
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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    This thread amazes me, I haven't read so much bs in I can't even remember how long. Even people who should know better are posting incorrect info.
    My car will burn e85 when I get it going this spring, I've researched this quite a bit.
    First, it takes about 1.3x, or 30% more than the volume of gasoline to produce a stoich mixture with e85. So if you were making 600whp on 1000cc injectors with race fuel, now you need 1300s. Most people just get 1600s.
    However, you don't always need to run e85 at stoich..that and the increased ign advance you can use will get some of that mileage lost due to reduced btu content back.
    As far as damaging steel, ie, the fuel tank, people like tony1 on h-t say that isn't true, and I'll take his word for it. The problem with the metal compatibility I see is that the fuel absorbs, or can absorb, water, and the water can cause problems with the steel. I have read about the formic acid in the oil thing, but what do flex fuel vehicles do to address that? Nothing. People say you should run anodized, not bare aluminum too, but again, haven't read about issues with stock fuel rails. Supposedly, all cars built after 1988 for sale in the U.S. have to be compatible with 10% ethanol, so the fuel lines should be fine with 85%. They're not going to make cars that are only compatible with a certain % and then the fuel lines melt, too much of a liability. My car is an 87, do I have to change all 2 feet of hoses? I don't now, but big deal if I do.
    Basically, as far as running e85 in a stock vehicle not meant for it, I don't think it is worth it. Most vehicles Can do this, since the long term 02 fuel correction factor is around 30%, but it will be right on the edge of the check engine light. In order to do this, you have to slowly increase the % of e85 with each fill up. If you just go from gas to e85 in 1 fill up, the ecu will not know wtf to do, because of the narrow band 02 sensor. The reason why I say it's not worth doing though is with the stock ecu, the a/f ratio will try to be stoich, when you can run e85 leaner, and the ign timing map will be way off, nowhere near mbt for e85. So your mpg will get killed by it. However, under full throttle, despite this, most people do see an increase in power.

    With programmable management, I would prefer to burn e85. Should be cheaper to use. And with a turbo setup, it is the only option for power other than race gas. People might think "only 105" octane and think they won't be able to get big power, but since it burns cooler, you can still run it with high boost. There are people on honda-tech who are making More power at the same boost over 116 octane race fuel. 600whp in a honda is totally doable with e85, and for about a third of the price of race fuel. That is extremely cool in my book.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    the funny thing with this e85 you guys are talkin bout is where the ethnol comes from
    chances are its made from corn which itself fucks the ground it grown in
    then theres the plants that turn it into ethanol
    they use more energy creating the stuff than it actually contains
    then we start stickng it in our own old cars
    this stuff even at 10% has been proven to be corrosive to aluminium and magnesium alloys.
    and also to the older rubber and plastic hoses and seals
    the japs when they built our cars( for those who have jdm cars) never designed them for ethanol in any percentage to be run in these cars
    the usdm my be diff since they have had homers old gasohol for a while now and manufacturers may have modded the manufacture of materials to be more resistant to it.
    but given the choice, i wouldnt touch the stuff with a zippo
    there is more than enuff oil in the world to keep us all in good old fossil fuel octanes for years

  4. #29

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    we got a honda city engine ro run off alcohol we distilled. ran okay with slight carb mods. i wouldnt use it tho too much work lol. and me.. i would touch it with a zippo as long as it burned

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    well Ive been running e-85 for awhile in my dsm but I also have bigger injectors something to tune with, replaced all rubber and anodized my fuel rail. I would not run it in the honda because theres not really a need for it and it will just end up eating away at shit and running like crap.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    the problem with ethanol in the tank is it's a really good solvent, when you change it over all the gunk in the tank comes loose and runs into your fuel system,the solution to this is to get a kit such as the one from eastwood, that cleans the tank to bare metal,and coats it with a sealant inside. they are really reasonably priced and it should be done on any car over 20 years old anyway. all of your rubber fuel lines will have to be replaced with lines rated for alachol, it will eat the rubber. on a stock carb car i don't think it's possible to do the conversion at all. there are way too many special wierd shaped o rings and rubber parts to find replacements. on my dual carb conversion when i get the carbs rebuilt i'm using rubber parts rated for alachol from the beginning. plus the SU design will automatically adjust itself to the correct mixture needed. and i'm already using braided lines rated to handle the stuff. remember on an efi car you will also need to find a pump rated for alachol. maby a later model honda pump would work. and you'll need to make new rubber sealing rings for the sending unit and fuel pump at the top of the tank. you can buy the rubber in sheets from companies such as MSC direct and make your own. don't forget your fuel filters, it's pretty easy to find filters rated for it from summit and jegs,plus the honda racing community has probably already got direct fits due to the drag racers. as far as stock,my book says you can use up to 10 percent. thats the owners manual. and i have an 86 carbed.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    yeah ethanol is a solvent/corrosion accellerator and will eat rubber if not rated for it
    it causes it to swell and poss leak which is big fire hazard

  8. #33

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  9. #34

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Gasoline is a pretty harsh blend of shit. I can't see why Ethanol would be so much worse on o-rings and hoses meant to tolerate gas.
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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    it's a different type of solvent. trust me it will eat incorrect fuel system parts. thats exactly the reason parts are rated for eithier gasoline or alachol.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Nice vid on Jay leno's site about discussing E85 with Gale Banks

    http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/...tml?vid=190247

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  12. #37
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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    I been running about 20-30% since early in the spring. I mix it with 87 octane. 10 gallons to 2 gallons. No fires no explosions and my tires have not fallen off as of today. Car starts at 17 degrees F runs and idles. Warms up fine. Runs great no ping with high timimg. I get 27 mpg city prolly up 3 mpg from where I was running prememium fuel with pinging. I have a wideband i need to hook up I was not going to report in until I did but it really doesnt matter what the wide band says anyway with mixed fuel it wont read anything helpfull.
    Last edited by Oldblueaccord; 08-22-2017 at 09:23 PM.
    1988 Lxi owner since August 1995
    336k miles running strong!
    Now running E85.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauntd ca3 View Post
    the funny thing with this e85 you guys are talkin bout is where the ethnol comes from
    chances are its made from corn which itself fucks the ground it grown in
    then theres the plants that turn it into ethanol
    they use more energy creating the stuff than it actually contains
    then we start stickng it in our own old cars
    this stuff even at 10% has been proven to be corrosive to aluminium and magnesium alloys.
    and also to the older rubber and plastic hoses and seals
    the japs when they built our cars( for those who have jdm cars) never designed them for ethanol in any percentage to be run in these cars
    the usdm my be diff since they have had homers old gasohol for a while now and manufacturers may have modded the manufacture of materials to be more resistant to it.
    but given the choice, i wouldnt touch the stuff with a zippo
    there is more than enuff oil in the world to keep us all in good old fossil fuel octanes for years

    I think just about everything you wrote is bullshit. Maybe you should cite some of your sources.
    Or maybe you should start reading some threads on this on honda-tech.
    And I specifically want to know how it uses more energy than it provides. That would be the Only argument for using fossil fuel over this. Not the first time I've heard that either, it's one of the most common misconceptions about ethanol.
    Fossil fuel results in a net gain of CO2 in our atmosphere, ethanol does not. The plants absorb the CO2 during growth, and it is released when the ethanol burns.
    Last edited by Accordtheory; 02-08-2008 at 10:58 AM.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    My opinion is its better then us using foriegn oil. Remember arabs have nothing but oil.They cant even produce there own food. If we slow the purchuse of oil from them there done. Here its cheaper than 87 octane gas has a higher octane rating then prem. fuel and as of now Im getting better mileage. So thats a win win win for eveyone except oil companies. Another big plus is the farmers finally get a chance to make a comeback after 80 years of losses. I do think there better fuels to come then from corn but this is a start and its what is needed in this country.
    Last edited by Oldblueaccord; 08-22-2017 at 09:23 PM.
    1988 Lxi owner since August 1995
    336k miles running strong!
    Now running E85.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauntd ca3 View Post
    there is more than enuff oil in the world to keep us all in good old fossil fuel octanes for years
    Yeah there might be enough oil for a while. So what. At what cost? It' a Non Renewable resource, and it's use contributes to environmental damage. People like you hold back the advancement of technology. What, do you work for an oil company?

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    SEi User Hauntd ca3's Avatar
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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    sort off work for an oil company
    spin spanners in the work shop of a country gassy/garage
    down here in new zealand we have no smog or pollution probs/ apart from auckland which the rest of the country hates anyway
    4.2 million people in a country the size of the uk means nice clean air
    there has just been a big oil field the size of texas found 50 miles from where i am
    alcohol is meant for my beer not my car"mmmmm alcomahol"
    i still believe that the big oil companies could come up with a synthetic petrol the same as they have with oils
    i know that synthetic oils still contain mineral oils that are modified alot with other additives etc so that only a small percentage of it is mineral oil, why not the same with gas
    shell make a totally synthetic fuel for ferrari f1 team,
    the corn crops that most countries including the US are using for the source material
    are worse for the land than the pollution that fossil fuel creates
    it takes more energy to make ethanol than it contains so is wasteful
    did i mention its for my beer?
    alcohol helps ugly people get laid

  17. #42
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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    for an interesting sidenote,the original model t ford was designed to run on ethanol originally,then oil was discovered in PA by drake and since it was much cheaper, the enthenal idea fell by the wayside. the idea in the first place was for farmers to make their own fuel.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauntd ca3 View Post
    the corn crops that most countries including the US are using for the source material
    are worse for the land than the pollution that fossil fuel creates
    it takes more energy to make ethanol than it contains so is wasteful
    Well, first, I don't "sort of" work for any energy company at all. I am unbiased and seek only the real info. I thought e85 was bs at first, but then I started learning about it, and now my car will be running on it. For me, there is no alternative.
    Once again, cite your sources. I want to know where you got this bullshit info. And just so you know, ethanol is not always made from corn either.
    Last edited by Accordtheory; 02-10-2008 at 11:14 AM.

  19. #44

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    Well, first, I don't "sort of" work for any energy company at all. I am unbiased and seek only the real info. I thought e85 was bs at first, but then I started learning about it, and now my car will be running on it. For me, there is no alternative.
    Once again, cite your sources. I want to know where you got this bullshit info. And just so you know, ethanol is not always made from corn either.
    Isn't it usually made from wood or other vegetation pulp? Anything that contains cellulose? I think I read that somewhere.
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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    You can make ethanol from anything that contains cellulose. Grass, trees, even bamboo.

    Hauntd, yeah, the "synthetic" fuel would be the ethanol we're talking about here.

    The only thing that a fuel will do is prolong any future ocnversion to electric cars. I'd love to be able to plug my car into my solar grid at home and drive it for free.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    ok guys i may be wrong about the corn part
    but it a major source since it is a very high density crop and can be grown in most climates
    have seen it made from sugar beets and various canes because they have a higher sugar content which we all know is fairly important part of alcohol since ethanol is a type of alcohol.
    I may work for a garage that sells fuel etc but doesnt mean i buy it just cause i work there
    hell we dont even stock any oil made by this company since fuel manufacturers make shit oil.
    i prefer petrol because as yet ethanol is still largely an unknown ting in terms of wear and tear and unkown if causes health probs
    cahnces are it will have no health probs attributed to it i know that much.
    i do know howevr that it cause accelerated wear and tear on fuel pumps and other parts of fuel systems which even include injectors
    wear of engine parts has also been accepted as excessive compeared to petrol so engine life is reduced
    also you cant sy that ethanol increases the octane rating because it does not contain octane of any amount
    would prefer to see oil companies push lpg as a fuel instead of e anything
    this is a fuel that is extremely high in octane numbers and is in the larger part just burnt off at the refinery
    lpg has an octane rating of between 102 and 112 depending on the grade of oil in the field it is drawn from.
    think you americans call it propane or cng
    also methane is a good source of fuel energy, i think altho could be wrong this is used in propane in the states? correct me if wrong
    why dont everyone buy diesils and run canola oil in them
    that works if you want to be green
    there is a guy in nz that has found a way to turn water into fuel
    have seen the guys machine in action and it does work
    he runs his buell motorbike on the stuff
    i still donot believe that ethanol is the best alterative at this time.
    i will find the article on ethanol blenedfuel tomorrow and post as much as i can
    it is proven that there is enuff oil in canada alone to kepp the world going for best part of hunderd years
    it may be in oil sands but its there
    cal me old fashioned but i like fossil fuel

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Oil sand extraction won't be cost effective until at LEAST $5 a gallon. At that point, pure alcohol would be a much better alternative.

    Octane is simply the resistance to knock. No fuel "contains" octane.

    The only thing that is even close to being an alternative is Hydrogen. Right now, most Hydrogen is produced from natural gas. Converting water to Hydrogen doesn't make for a good energy conversion.

  23. #48
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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    sory didnt explain the octane bit proper
    octane refers to the number of pure hydrocarbons atoms in a fuel molecule
    of which there are eight
    diesil has seven so has a heptane rating
    simply put the more in a molecule the more volatile it is
    when they test a fuel to decide its octane rating they measure it against a fuel of pure untainted hydrocarbons
    they use a fangled motor that they can raise and lower the whole cylinder and head asembly to change the comp ratio until it knocks
    they reference the number they come against the number from the control fuel to get the octane rating
    i know that the oil in the oil sand will be expensive to extract but its there and there is lots of it
    but my arguement isnt against hydrogen, its against ethanol blended fuels
    following are excerpts from a motorcycling magazine article on ethanol blended fuels

    an australian federal environment department report compiled by the orbital engine company noted that the additive ethanol can cause of metal partsleading to damage in fuel systems .
    such as carbs,fuel pumps and lines,fuel filter and plastic tanks
    it also can cause perishing of plastics and increas4s the emmission of nitrogen oxides and toxic aldehydes
    the corrosion becomes critical even before the corrosive action damages the part
    the particles of corrosion can plug small openings in carbs and injectors
    because of ethanols solvent action, fuel lines can sweel,soften and lose strength.
    plastic and fiber reinforced parts of the fuel system can become cracked and leaked creating a fire or explosion hazard
    it can also cause cold starting probs,knocking and power loss
    honda mpe agrees with that,citing drivability issues.
    among the effects of even just e10 are loss of power,deterioration of some materials including fuel lines,seals and even some metal componants and even inlet valve damage as potential. most importantly , no issues that arise from ethanol laced fuel will be covered by warranty. " this mabe diff for honda cars but this is from a motorcycle magazine
    motorcycles a much more sensitive to these things than cars but the materials used are the same

    dr niven from the uni of new south wales australia agreed thateven low levels of ethanol can cause probs.
    \the fact about ethanol are is its electrically conductive, promoting the corrosion of many metals, it reacts with and weakens other materials and various polymers and plastics.
    when present in petrol, it increases the solubility of the petrol constituents in water, especially the more hazardous compounds such as benzene which once released/leaked or spilled, the fuel has the ability to spread more widely and the dissolved "plume" of benzene and related compounds can be twice as large.
    it worth noting that these probs seem to apply even with realitively low concentrations of ethanol.

    as for the contention that ethanol is the eco sound answer to the fuel crisis, consider this
    part of the relatively high expense of producing ethanol is the cost ofthe fossil fuels used in the process.
    david pimintel from cornell uni in the states who chaired a dept of energy panel on the subject points out that 131000 btu's are requierd to produce one gallon of ethanol where that same gallon only has an energy value of 77000 btu.
    so it takes about 70% more energy to produce than it contains which is why fossil fuels are used in the production.
    the growers cant afford to burn ethanol to produce it.
    the cost isnt the only prob
    he points out that corn production in the us errodes the soil about 12 times faster than it can be reformed.
    and irrigation mines ground water 25% faster than natural recharge.
    so the environment that its being grown in is rapidly degrading so should not be considered as a feedsource.
    I ADMIT I GOT THE BIT BOUT CORN WRONG EARILER
    additionally,pimintel has calculated the area that would be needed to make the us for example independant of fossil fuels and energy secure if all cars were fuel purely by ethanol.
    a total of 97% of us land area would be neededto plant corn to supply feed stock.
    there would be no room for anything but corn and roads.


    My own arguement was the damage that it does to engines and ot the environment.
    never listen to what the govt feed you coz we all know is usually a load of bullshit.
    listen to overseas studies instead of homegrown studies
    ethanol/metahnol may be good for high performace work if you can burn enuff of it and afford to rebuild engine and fuel systems regularly
    but for everydaay use it has proved so far to be not the best idea.
    even the germans who are apparently the best engineers in the world are having trobles with the wear and tear and even getting emissions to euro standards
    am not saying its a bad idea . just not yet and not in old cars such as our 1,2 and 3geez
    unless you want to risk serious engine degradation
    i myself love the engines more than the cars and wouldnt want to do anything to shorten its life.
    take it as you want but until E blended fuels are proven safe to engines and fuel systems in the long term and by that i mean ten to fifteen years without failure attributed to the fuel
    i'll be staying away
    would rather drive a prius

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauntd ca3 View Post
    david pimintel from cornell uni in the states who chaired a dept of energy panel on the subject points out that 131000 btu's are requierd to produce one gallon of ethanol where that same gallon only has an energy value of 77000 btu.
    so it takes about 70% more energy to produce than it contains which is why fossil fuels are used in the production.

    additionally,pimintel has calculated the area that would be needed to make the us for example independant of fossil fuels and energy secure if all cars were fuel purely by ethanol.
    a total of 97% of us land area would be neededto plant corn to supply feed stock.
    there would be no room for anything but corn and roads.
    Anyone else want to refute this? I just don't give a fuck anymore. If it was such a waste, why would are people putting so much $ into its developement?

    And as far as the octane, e85 is has a rating or 105. End of story.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    And what about Brazil? Don't they run all of their vehicles on ethanol, without gvt subsidies? And haven't they done that for the last 20 years or so?

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