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Thread: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

  1. #51

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Brazil also uses compressed natural gas and Propane.

    As cited above: "And as far as the octane, e85 is has a rating or 105. End of story."

    Again, corn isn't the only feedstock available. Pretty much any cellulose structure can be used. Sugar, algae, trees, the list goes on. Algae is a good place to look, as some strains grow very quickly.

    Germans the best engineers in the world? Why can't they build a reliable car? THAT is why they're having wear issues. The can't get a gasoline engine to last, much less ethanol. Strangely, they can build diesels, but that's neither here nor there.

    Also, most companies don't seem to be using alcohol rated parts. A few years ago, this was common. Now, not so much.

    To recap:

    1. Stop assuming corn is the only feedstock

    2. Cite more current data

    3. We're running out of oil, plain and simple. Supply and demand. Gasoline will reach the point where no one can afford it, and the global economy would begin to collapse. We have to research alternative NOW, not when we deplete the oil from the earth's crust.



  2. #52

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauntd ca3 View Post
    diesil has seven so has a heptane rating

    Diesel fuel is rated by Cetane number. It ranges from 30-70 points, and equates inversely to the "wax" content of the fuel, and proportionally to the combustability. Lower cetane fuels are harder to ignite, but contain more combustive energy per volumetric unit. Higher rated fuels also experience less ignition delay, and are quieter and faster burning.
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  3. #53

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    The thing people have to remember about petroleum is that it's in a sense a free ride, in that it contains more stored energy than it takes to refine into fuel. So the whole infrastructure is self sustaining. The rub is that it took millions of years for nature to concentrate all of that energy into a such a wonderful fuel source. With ethanol you only have the lifespan of the feedstock to store energy into, so it's not going to be as concentrated as petroleum. And it will likely always take more energy to refine ethanol than you will get from it as a fuel. It IS however renewable and carbon neutral in itself. So it won't release any carbon that was previously sequestered in the form of petroleum. The trick will be to come up with a maximally efficient refining process for ethanol that can be supplemented with other clean energy sources (solar, wind, geothermal) to create a self sustaining system. But the research has to start now so that we have time to get to where we need to be before it's too late.

    Ethanol isn't the only answer though. There is also biodiesel and vegetable oil. And maybe eventually hydrogen if we can figure out an efficient process for production.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by cygnus x-1 View Post
    And maybe eventually hydrogen if we can figure out an efficient process for production.

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    I always though that someone should build a big barge covered in solar panels, and stick it in the south caribbean where it just floats around and electrolyzes hydrogen and oxygen from seawater. Release the O2 to the atmosphere, take the free fuel and lower ocean levels while you're at it! ....maybe I'm just drunk, but it could work.
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  5. #55

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by guyhatesmycar View Post
    I always though that someone should build a big barge covered in solar panels, and stick it in the south caribbean where it just floats around and electrolyzes hydrogen and oxygen from seawater. Release the O2 to the atmosphere, take the free fuel and lower ocean levels while you're at it! ....maybe I'm just drunk, but it could work.
    Not such a bad idea really. The next thing would be to find cheap and compact way to store and transport it. Compressing it takes lots of energy. Metal hydrides maybe?

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    That Cornel study is correct as far as I can see but it was done in 1984 its just quoted,or misquoted, since its negative of Ethanol in general.

    Brazil uses there sugar cane to make ethanol.Its a buy product they otherwise would have to dispose of by burning or burying.

    I didnt bother reading his enitre write up at this time but I will when I have time to waste.

    I guess my question is if I went with 330cc injectors for ethanol could I run plain gas,E-10 as well if I can't find any E-85? Sorry to get back on topic.
    Last edited by Oldblueaccord; 08-22-2017 at 09:21 PM.
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  7. #57

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by cygnus x-1 View Post
    Not such a bad idea really. The next thing would be to find cheap and compact way to store and transport it. Compressing it takes lots of energy. Metal hydrides maybe?

    C|
    I wonder if you can absorb it into a carrier somewhat like acetylene is dissolved in acetone?
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  8. #58

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by guyhatesmycar View Post
    I wonder if you can absorb it into a carrier somewhat like acetylene is dissolved in acetone?
    That's what metal hydrides are.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldblueaccord View Post
    I guess my question is if I went with 330cc injectors for ethanol could I run plain gas,E-10 as well if I can't find any E-85? Sorry to get back on topic.
    330cc is huge for a stock engine. From working with my Megasquirt I found that even with stock 240cc injectors the pulse width at idle is almost as short as it can get. With larger injectors it will be even worse. One thing that would probably help is a rising rate pressure regulator. This way at idle the pressure can be low enough to not dump in too much fuel.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    didnt realise that the cornel study was so old.
    brazil duz use alot of ethanol but production costs are way low there because labour is cheap as.
    they're still by and large a developing country with a large percentage of the population living in the jungle and slums and they'l work for nuthin and thatkeeps the cost down.
    go to a developed country where no one gets outta bed for less thn 12 dollars an hour and things change
    i realise my last post was pretty long but there was a bit to say.
    am still a believer in fossil fuels at the mo but as technology advances i might change.
    if they can find a way to less the corrosive effects of ethanol i'm sure i will become more wide spread.
    new zealand is only just starting to look at e10 so is stil a way off yet.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by cygnus x-1 View Post
    330cc is huge for a stock engine. From working with my Megasquirt I found that even with stock 240cc injectors the pulse width at idle is almost as short as it can get. With larger injectors it will be even worse. One thing that would probably help is a rising rate pressure regulator. This way at idle the pressure can be low enough to not dump in too much fuel.

    C|
    Many people with high hp setups run the rc 1000cc injectors with stock fuel press. The idle isn't that great, but it's still doable. Most people say you can idle nicely on 750s. That has been my observation/experience too. So what is going on with your megasquirt? The oem honda ecu doesn't even have a true peak and hold driver circuit, either.

    And I'm glad someone mentioned how old that cornell study was. Certainly takes a little air out of hauntd ca3's sails.
    Here's one link to some info on this.http://zfacts.com/p/83.html The real advances will come from using plants other than corn, and from not using fossil fuels or coal during ethanol's manufacture. Wind farms get my vote. It sucks that this is so heavily subsidized, also, most of that just ends up as profits.
    Last edited by Accordtheory; 02-14-2008 at 10:03 AM.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Tuner Tools - Automotive Tuning and Diagnostics

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    Last edited by Oldblueaccord; 08-22-2017 at 09:21 PM.
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  13. #63

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    Many people with high hp setups run the rc 1000cc injectors with stock fuel press. The idle isn't that great, but it's still doable. Most people say you can idle nicely on 750s. That has been my observation/experience too.
    With what engine? Surely not a 2.0L? And what kind of engine management?


    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    So what is going on with your megasquirt? The oem honda ecu doesn't even have a true peak and hold driver circuit, either.
    Peak and hold has nothing to do with it. That's just a type of injector driver. Whether the injectors are high or low impedance they have a given opening time that the ECU has to account for to get the pulse width right. What I don't know is how the stock Honda ECUs handle injector timing. The Megasquirt has different injector stagings you can use; 2, 4, or 8 squirts per engine cycle, with alternating or simultaneous firing of the two injector batches. At a minimum the injectors will fire once per cylinder combustion event. If the Honda ECU can fire less often than that then you could use larger injectors. I would expect the idle to be not very smooth though if the injectors were firing less than once per cylinder combustion event. I guess if you set the AFR way rich and crank up the idle speed you might be able to get a passable idle.

    Anyone know how PGMFI does injector staging?


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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    The most common is the all too popular ls/vtec or gsr with the gt35r. 600whp, the walbro right at it's limit, and the rc 1000s. Nothing unusual there, 1.8-2L, depending on the bore. Management is the typical obd-1 oem ecu chipped with crome, neptune, hondata s300, whatever.
    As far as peak and hold, that doesn't apply directly to your problem, but for possible future reference, if you connect a resistor in series with a low impedance injector and a normal on/off injector driver, (saturated) there is no way you'll have the control over it that you'd have with a true peak and hold driver. The reason is the peak current across the coil of the injector will be nowhere near as high.
    Okay, I can already feel myself starting to get a headache thinking about this, but if you can't get your setup to work sequentially..ok, it takes 720* crank rotation for 1 cyl to complete its cycle, 4 cyls, fire every 180*. If you fire all the injectors once every 720, all the cylinders would get fuel, but it would arrive at a different part of the cycle for each cyl. Is this what you meant by firing less than once per combustion event? Probably the way I'd do it if I couldn't do true sequential though, because if you fired the injectors every 360* or 180*, if they were sized small enough to be able to idle properly, under load or higher rpm, you'd run out of fuel. (The injectors would be spending just as much time opening and closing as spraying.) I don't know exactly when the honda ecu fires the injectors with reference to crank position, but it is a true sequential setup, each injector firing every 720*, 180* apart. Hope this helps..

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    I suppose you could also set it up to fire every 360, alternating the 2 drivers so the cylinders would get the fuel closer on the same cycle, degree wise. But I don't see it making that much of a difference that way or all at once every 720..
    Who knows, all I know is I'd only use a chipped obd-1 ecu. Fuck megasquirt. How did they come up with that name anyway, they were drinking and had to take a ..mega..squirt? I'm calling it megapiss from now on.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/fe...-biofuels-okd/

    Pretty good article on switchgrass.


    I'd be willing to try 330 cc injectors. It kinda sucks since I got brand new RC 240's in a box but maybe they would trade me out right for the 330's. I would be interested to see if this is doable.
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  17. #67

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    The most common is the all too popular ls/vtec or gsr with the gt35r. 600whp, the walbro right at it's limit, and the rc 1000s. Nothing unusual there, 1.8-2L, depending on the bore. Management is the typical obd-1 oem ecu chipped with crome, neptune, hondata s300, whatever.
    Oh. That's a completely different realm. I was thinking more of stock like engines. When you said "high hp" you meant HIGH HP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    As far as peak and hold, that doesn't apply directly to your problem, but for possible future reference, if you connect a resistor in series with a low impedance injector and a normal on/off injector driver, (saturated) there is no way you'll have the control over it that you'd have with a true peak and hold driver. The reason is the peak current across the coil of the injector will be nowhere near as high.
    True. Opening time will be slow because of the low current. Incidentally I'm running high impedance injectors at the moment. And they work fine. Opening time is set for 1.2ms.


    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    Okay, I can already feel myself starting to get a headache thinking about this, but if you can't get your setup to work sequentially..ok, it takes 720* crank rotation for 1 cyl to complete its cycle, 4 cyls, fire every 180*. If you fire all the injectors once every 720, all the cylinders would get fuel, but it would arrive at a different part of the cycle for each cyl. Is this what you meant by firing less than once per combustion event? Probably the way I'd do it if I couldn't do true sequential though, because if you fired the injectors every 360* or 180*, if they were sized small enough to be able to idle properly, under load or higher rpm, you'd run out of fuel. (The injectors would be spending just as much time opening and closing as spraying.)
    What I meant by firing less than once per combustion cycle was firing less than once per 720*. But it would probably run like crap so forget about that. Right now mine is setup for 4-alternating. Which means every 180*, two injectors fire, either 1 and 4, or 2 and 3. And they alternate. This does make the injectors spend more time opening and closing, but it also runs smoother than say 2-alternating, which is the same thing but every 360*. With larger injectors I would have to run 2-alternating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    I don't know exactly when the honda ecu fires the injectors with reference to crank position, but it is a true sequential setup, each injector firing every 720*, 180* apart. Hope this helps..
    It does. I didn't know that PGMFI was true sequential. That's cool that Honda was doing that back then.

    Incidentally the MS guys are working on sequential injection. I think it supposed to be ready very soon.


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  18. #68

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    I suppose you could also set it up to fire every 360, alternating the 2 drivers so the cylinders would get the fuel closer on the same cycle, degree wise. But I don't see it making that much of a difference that way or all at once every 720..
    360 alternating: Yes, and that's the way many people run it. It will actually do 720* simultaneous, but I've never heard of anyone doing that. It would run but probably not as smooth. It would depend on the particular engine setup.


    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    Who knows, all I know is I'd only use a chipped obd-1 ecu. Fuck megasquirt. How did they come up with that name anyway, they were drinking and had to take a ..mega..squirt? I'm calling it megapiss from now on.
    I know very little of Honda ECUs and OBD1, so I can't make a comparison. I do know that I like the MS, however the typical Honda enthusiast would likely be better served with an OBD1 conversion. Mostly because local tech support will be more available. MS is more of a general purpose ECU that can be used for anything from a 3HP Briggs to a huge V8 or better.

    The name is odd though. No doubt there.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    More on the 720* simultaneous vs 360* alernating, did you know that mechanical injection systems, like on old airplanes, just spray continuously into each intake port? The fuel flow is completely pressure dependent, and those motors run and idle fine. So maybe the timing of the pulsewidth isn't absolutely crucial.
    I believe alternating injector drivers every 360 would be the best way to do it, if you pair the right cylinders together. Why cycle the injectors more than you have to..
    Were you able to verify a difference in idle/running alternating with 360 vs 180 deg? (With the same a/f ratio)?
    I would find that surprising.
    So why didn't you just do the typical chipped obd-1 ecu? I'll probably just bite the bullet and get the s300.

  20. #70

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    More on the 720* simultaneous vs 360* alernating, did you know that mechanical injection systems, like on old airplanes, just spray continuously into each intake port? The fuel flow is completely pressure dependent, and those motors run and idle fine. So maybe the timing of the pulsewidth isn't absolutely crucial.
    I've heard of mechanical injection systems but never thought much about them. I totally understand what you mean though. Carbs are the same way. Fuel is continuously drawn into the system in response to vacuum. They have no concept of crank timing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    I believe alternating injector drivers every 360 would be the best way to do it, if you pair the right cylinders together. Why cycle the injectors more than you have to..
    Probably the majority of people running MS run this way (360-alt). Largely because it's the default and it works. For turbo applications it's just about the only way to go. With 180* alternating you lose some "dynamic range" of the injectors so to speak. So for a given set of injectors the maximum fuel output is lower and the minimum fuel output is higher. Lately though more people have been experimenting with 180* alternating or even 180* simultaneous (all fire at once). 180* simultaneous is difficult though because you need lower flow injectors. It all depends on the particular application.


    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    Were you able to verify a difference in idle/running alternating with 360 vs 180 deg? (With the same a/f ratio)?
    I would find that surprising.
    A little. The difference is not so much with the idle, although it is a tad smoother. It's more noticeable in the throttle response and AFR. Response feels faster and the AFR seems to be controlled better in relation to the target AFR under changing load conditions. Under steady load and throttle I doubt I could tell the difference. This is hard to test though because there are so many other variables, and when you change injector staging the fuel map has to be adjusted. I could create separate configuration files and just switch back and forth to test. But in the end it's not THAT big a deal I would rather spend my time working on getting the timing dialed in.
    Unfortunately the only real way to do this is to get some time in on a loaded dyno. Which around here seems to be rare and insanely expensive. I'm open to any suggestions about dialing in timing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Accordtheory View Post
    So why didn't you just do the typical chipped obd-1 ecu? I'll probably just bite the bullet and get the s300.
    Mostly because I just didn't know anything about OBD swaps. I'm fairly new to the Honda world and my car is a 2g Prelude that had those wacky dual carbs, which is like OBD "-1", meaning extra crappy. When I rebuilt the engine I first put on a Weber 38/38 because it was simple and easy. Then I heard about the MS and it just seemed like a cool idea, and a fun project. I like how all the schematics are openly published, as well as the firmware source code. And if I ever wanted to I could reuse the ECU for a totally different car. It's good stuff.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Still going at 30%. I cant believe it been 4 years.

    Anyone running 100%?
    Last edited by Oldblueaccord; 08-22-2017 at 09:20 PM.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    yup.
    un-motivated!
    someone make me an offer i just could not say no to.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Still rolling 100%.

    I think my original fuel pump is finally going to bite it. Not holding pressure after about 5 mins off. Little hard starting in the AM. I got a new Walbro pump, F90000267, but I may disconnect the gauge I have on the fuel filter to see if its the leak path. Need to upgrade the fuel pump wiring other wise that pump pulls 15 amps at 40 psi.

    Interested to see what the tank looks like inside.

    I pulled the tank on another car I run 50/50 and it was just an old galvanized tank. It looked good. Very clean which I was surprised.
    Last edited by Oldblueaccord; 08-22-2017 at 09:37 PM.
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