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Thread: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

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    LX User azazel_18_2's Avatar
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    E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    I have an 89 accord lxi and have a question MAYBE someone can answer. There is this E85 out that is 85% ethanol and is rated at 100 octane. Why can't our cars run it? Can we convert our cars to run on it? What would it take. 100 octane would take alot of my wories about detonation in my hi-compression engine. Can Anybody help me?



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    LX User kaltenacht's Avatar
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    Re: E85 Help

    Quote Originally Posted by azazel_18_2
    I have an 89 accord lxi and have a question MAYBE someone can answer. There is this E85 out that is 85% ethanol and is rated at 100 octane. Why can't our cars run it? Can we convert our cars to run on it? What would it take. 100 octane would take alot of my wories about detonation in my hi-compression engine. Can Anybody help me?
    Our cars cannot run it because our engines are not designed to handle the corrosive nature of ethanol alcohol. It is not possible to convert our cars to run on E85. Nor is it possible to simply dump E85 into the tank and expect to work. In order to do so you would have to completely redesign the ENTIRE engine, add new sensors, a new ECU that could detect when E85 is being ran through the system and adjust the idle and air/fuel mixture, and a host of other things. If you want a engine that will run E85 buy a flex-fuel car or truck.
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

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    LX User StressSolutions's Avatar
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    Smile E 85 gas, anyone use it?

    A buddy with a 89 LXi hatch has used the E85 with mixed results with his Honda. It didn't start exactly right, and didn't give as good of gas mileage as with the normal gas. He has used E 85 with good results with some other vehicles, mostly GM with the 3.8l.

    Any comments, suggestions? Thanks. mk

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    Re: E 85 gas, anyone use it?

    as far as i know GM is the only one that made their cars to use both E85 and/or regular gas.
    Alex.

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    DX User voiceinurhead05's Avatar
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    Re: E 85 gas, anyone use it?

    DO NOT PUT AN ALCOHOL BASED FUEL LIKE E85 IN ANY OLD CAR.
    In order to use E85 safely and without problems you must have flex fuel technology, like some of those new SUV's made by GM.

    Use E85 and expect your car to run like shit, then possibly blow the motor.
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    Re: E 85 gas, anyone use it?

    nissan titans can run on e85 i think


    .

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    LX User StressSolutions's Avatar
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    Re: E 85 gas, anyone use it?

    Ford Taurus has E85 flex too. Does anyone know what the flex capability consists of?

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    Re: E 85 gas, anyone use it?

    There is a good article about flex fuel vehicles in the lates Popular Mechanics. Voiceinurhead is absolutely right. DO NOT try to use E85 in your old Honda. It may very well run on it, but cars made to run on this fuel have to have special components to deal with the highly corrosive effects of alcohol fuel. This stuff will rust your fuel tank, deteriorate your hoses, and damage your injectors or carb. It results in lower emissions, but it also has a significantly lower energy content than gasoline so your performance and fueld economy will be drastically different, anyway.

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    Re: E 85 gas, anyone use it?

    You can run it, but you have to do some preparation first. There's some info on it on megasquirts site http://www.megasquirt.info/flexfuel.htm along with an explaniation of how flex works. I'd convert and run it if e85 were avaialbe near me. (weber carbs are alcohol rated, all I'd need is a fuel cell). That stuff is 105 octane, up near race gas terrority. But you need a fuel tank, injectors, and pump that are alcohol rated and you have to get all of the natural rubber out of your fuel system, including o-rings and seals. Alcohol will break down the natural rubber and causes mild steel to rust very quickly. It also burns at a diferent afr so you need to recalibrate your fuel map a bit or you'll be running way too lean. And of course your fuel milage will drop because you have to inject more alcohol to get the proper afr then you did gas.

    andy


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    3Geez Veteran AccordEpicenter's Avatar
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    Re: E 85 gas, anyone use it?

    those alky mixes are corrosive as hell and tend to run like shit. Dont run that stuff or itll eat through your fuel system... pretty much any and all of it. Nasty stuff
    429whp 362wtq A20 TURBO. A20T>*

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    Re: E 85 gas, anyone use it?

    I'm all for it..you can run higher compression and way more fuel because E-85 needs almost half the air to burn as gasoline. What's the biggest power restriction on any engine? Airflow. With alcohol, you need less, so you can make more power with what you have.
    ICHIBAN!
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    Re: E 85 gas, anyone use it?

    My grandfather was in the dry cleaning business. During WWII and all the gas rationing he used to burn benzene (dry cleaning fluid) in his car when gasoline was not available. See that; flex fuel is not a new concept at all.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    I have been running 50% Ethanol in my 1988 Accord Lxi. It runs great and smells like a race car. I simply pump half E10 and half E85. Any car that is computer controlled, has fuel injection, and is properly tuned (not running on CPU default values) can run at least 30% Ethanol. Any more than 50% will damage the little rubber seals in your fuel system. They say Ethanol doesn't like cold weather but my Lxi runs fine bone cold at @ 23deg F. Don't laugh but I swear it's faster on the alcohol, I guess my CPU has adjusted a little on the agressive side somehow. Lastly, expect a 10% decrease in fuel mileage @ 50% alcohol. Yes, the octane rating is very high but you have to have a high compression engine to benefit from it.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    hmmm!



    read this thread.
    there is alot of good information here.
    http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1812349
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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    some guy filled up with E85 one time and his accord ran like crap. It was EFI too.
    E85 fuel is shitty fuel, you don't gain any HP and your gas mileage goes down. The only benefit is polution. It is a lot cleaner.
    If honda wanted i am sure they would design the engines that run on E85, but there is a reason why there are no E85 honda engines.
    Alex.

  16. #16

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    you just can't just put e85 in and expect it to run good.
    you have to spicifically tune for it, fuel and timming.
    the reason you loose gas milage is because you have to inject more fuel than you normaly would.
    the upside e85 burns cooler thus making more power.
    un-motivated!
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    Re: E85 Help

    Quote Originally Posted by kaltenacht
    Our cars cannot run it because our engines are not designed to handle the corrosive nature of ethanol alcohol. It is not possible to convert our cars to run on E85. Nor is it possible to simply dump E85 into the tank and expect to work. In order to do so you would have to completely redesign the ENTIRE engine, add new sensors, a new ECU that could detect when E85 is being ran through the system and adjust the idle and air/fuel mixture, and a host of other things. If you want a engine that will run E85 buy a flex-fuel car or truck.
    Methanol is corrosive not ethenol. One you can drink one you cant (well you go blind then dead). It just doesn't have the same BTU as gasoline does hence you need more fuel and it makes a little less power is all.

    Honda has e-85 cars there becoming more popular here and very big in alotta countries. Look up brazil esp.

    I would think on our cars it would benefit to go with bigger injectors.

    there's a Hotrod article this month on it with a guy from Moparts on the Web - Main Index.
    Last edited by Oldblueaccord; 08-22-2017 at 09:22 PM.

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    e85 requires nearly 2x the fuel delivery than gasoline does for the same power level, but it runs cooler so you can advance timing like crazy. It will eat up A20 fuel systems, it its possible to convert but i dont think all the time and money to do so would be worth it
    429whp 362wtq A20 TURBO. A20T>*

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Just wanted to relay a few more facts and Ill let you guys pump up your post counts with bullshit.

    1 gallon 100% Gasoline contains 114,132 BTU

    1 gallon of E-10 (10% ethanol) 110,308 BTU

    1 gallon E-85 83,263 BTU and is 105 octane

    I got this info from mopar action Feb. 2007 p. 28

    paraphrasin a few other tid bits of info:

    "major auto makers have found that flex fule vehicles get 24%to 32$ less milage but do actually make 5-6% more power." (p.29)

    "problem with E-85 is water absorbtion. 11% water can due serious engine wear due to the formation of formic acid." p 29


    "mileage worked out to be about 90% of the best gasoline milage. This is with the same compression run on gas 9.5:1 were 12:1 would be more ideal. " p79


    I got all this from the mopar action (moparaction.com) article. I incorrectly stated it was HotRod and I was worng.


    wp

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Good info, Oldblue! Actually, over at PGMFI.org, we were doing some calculations, and found that just bumping the fuel injectors to about 330cc/min (the units from the 4G Prelude H22A1, for example) did most of the retuning work for you. Of course, there would still need to be fine tuning of the fuel tables, but it would be far less work.
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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Oregon Intelligent Ethanol Systems sells a Flex Kit approved by the EPA now. My neighbor installs them at his auto repair shop. I talked to him about Ethanol the other day but I don't know much about the topic. I will ask him next time if it will work on my Accord. I don't think mine will work but I will ask anyways.

    Ethanol Injection System

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    as others have said, if you don't have a flex fuel engine, don't mess with e-85..wanna run on straight ethanol?..move to brazil. there is way too much b/s about e-85 flowing in regular channels..don't add to it. to stop importing oil from those who want to see us all dead, we have to suffer with higher food prices and a different brand of pollution.

    bottom line..detroit is paying lip service until exxon is forced to make it..and we all know that isn;t happening anytime soon, we'll see shale oil before that happens and $5-6 for a gallon of gas.

    the real show stopper is distribution..line LNG or propane cars..if distribution isn't there the cars have a limited appeal..and with a limited appeal, nobody is going to invest big $$ in a distribution network.

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    DX User gosse's Avatar
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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    here in denmark wee pay about 6$ for a gallon.. 1 liter cost about 9 - 10 (have been around 11 kroner) kroner, which is well about 7 kr - 1 dollar..

    I am getting sick of the gas prices.. when i startet runnning a moped, the gas costed a litle under a dollar per liter.. and thats not a long time ago..
    Here in denmark were yelling about global warming, but we cant buy e85 or biodiesel, thus we make it in denmark?!?! no we send it to germany????
    hydrogen have we niether, we have no choice, but we gonna pay a lot of taxes for the gas, and cars..

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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    wow. a lot of argument here... heres my .02
    simple facts.
    ethanol is corrosive to rubber seals... so ur entire fuel system would need to be replaced if u switched ur car over...
    ethanol is higher octane than your standard gasoline...which would help if ur running higher compression ratios than normal. but most of us aren't.
    the stoichiometrics of ethanol require a higher fuel to air mixture.
    heard of 14.7:1-thats for petrol, i its 9.7:1 for e85.
    so MORE FUEL IS NEEDED to combust efficiently.
    now with all that said- previous posts that i'm gonna burn because they jumped to conclusions.
    kaltenacht- if a motor was designed to combust petrol- then chances are it is capable to combust e85- and yes. IT IS POSSIBLE!!!
    StressSolutions-yes. ur right. ethanol runs cooler. heat is power, hence the problems with cold startups...
    StressSolutions- yes i do. it is an engine management program which detects the ethanol thru a couple sensors and variates the a/f ratio to run the fuel.
    DBMaster-i like what you have to say
    AccordEpicenter- listen to this man, he's a genius
    Kabuki-ur using ur head. i like ur way of thinking.

    yes it is possible, but chances are, the upfront costs of converting ur car arent worth the gas prices...

    But just to let you know... my car is running fine with 1/5 e85, 1/5 petrol.
    and i did see a little top end movement out of it...
    call me what you want, but do your research...
    Last edited by nskforlife; 10-24-2007 at 06:21 PM. Reason: I tried it out
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    Re: E85 Fuel Conversion ?

    Quote Originally Posted by nskforlife
    the stoichiometrics of ethanol require a higher fuel to air mixture.
    heard of 14.7:1-thats for petrol, i think it's 18.9:1 for ethanol.
    so MORE FUEL IS NEEDED to combust efficiently.
    You've got it backwards there, 18.9:1 is a LEANER mixture than 14.7:1.
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