Car won't start

[honda]

I have a Honda Civic 97 LX. I read previous posts and didn't find a question quite the same as mine.

My car wouldn't start, so I got a jump start, and was able to then drive it. It did this one more time (stall then start with jump start), and then I went and had the battery checked. The mechanic was able to get a different assessment of the battery depending on how many CCA he put as "Rated For CCA." It's rated for 500, he put in 475, and the recommendation was "battery good". He then put in 500 CCA as the value rated for, and then it said "Replace battery." So since it was rated for 500 CCA, he was telling me the battery was bad. So I bought a new battery, and the car started, and it drove fine.

The next day, I started the car again, moved it just a little, and then turned the car off. Then tried to restart it, and it wouldn't start. So the new battery didn't help!

When I try to start the car, it doesn't do anything. The dash lights come on. The battery light comes on and stays on. So is it the starter, alternator, loose alternator belt, bad battery cable, some fuses, or bad battery? (It's probably not the battery, since this a new battery). Anything I can test myself on what the problem is? Haven't tried to jumpstart it again with new battery, will do so, but want to know a little more about the issue before I do so.

Second question is, did I really need to replace the battery (in other words, is the battery checking/recommendation system reliable)?

Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks.

[niles]

A 97 civic isn't really a 3gee, so our experience might not match your vehicle entirely.

Almost sounds like a relay or ignition switch issue. Can you be more descriptive of what happens when you turn the key? Do you hear 'clicks' inside the dash?

Is the check engine light on?

The battery light illuminated while the engine is off just means the charging system is not operating (since the cars not running)

[honda]

No, the CEL isn't on.

[Hauntd ca3]

sounds like its not charging to me
start it , grab a dmm and check charge voltage at bout 2k rpm.
make sure the battery is fully charged first, should be round 14.4 volts when running at 2k

[honda]

How would I make sure the battery is fully charged first without taking it out of the car?

I agree, it seems the battery isn't charging, but the question is it the alternator, loose alternator belt, bad battery cable, or some fuses? I haven't really checked those before, not sure how to.

[Hauntd ca3]

with the aforementioned DMM , check the battery voltage. 12.7 is fully charged, 12.3 is half flat , 11.7 is flat.
check your belts . if the light wont go out, the alt needs an overhaul

[honda]

Which one is the alternator belt? What about fuses?

[Oldblueaccord]

Which one is the alternator belt? What about fuses?

Alt is on the backside on the motor so firewall side below the brake master cylinder. Belt is wide "ribbed" belt.

Doubtfull its the belt.

Fuses main ones are under the hood plastic.

Electrical schematic can be dl here. Its a line diagram you pretty much follow it like a road map.


One simple thing i would add is new batteries the post are very small diameter so stock battery ends have to be clamped fully to make good contact on the post.

[honda]

Ok, thanks.

Apparently the car parts stores can test your car, and tell you if its the starter, alternator or battery that's a problem. If their test equipment said it was the alternator, would they know whether it was the alternator itself, or an alternator fuse? I've had so many mechanics lie about what was really the problem when I've taken cars in (they do unnecessary repairs to charge more money, or tell you it's an expensive repair when it's really an inexpensive one), I'd like to have some way to check what they tell me.

If it is the alternator itself, is that something that someone who is mechanically knowledgeable can do themselves, or is it very inacessible and requires being in a shop?

[Oldblueaccord]

Ok, thanks.

Apparently the car parts stores can test your car, and tell you if its the starter, alternator or battery that's a problem. If their test equipment said it was the alternator, would they know whether it was the alternator itself, or an alternator fuse? I've had so many mechanics lie about what was really the problem when I've taken cars in (they do unnecessary repairs to charge more money, or tell you it's an expensive repair when it's really an inexpensive one), I'd like to have some way to check what they tell me.

If it is the alternator itself, is that something that someone who is mechanically knowledgeable can do themselves, or is it very inacessible and requires being in a shop?

Sorry missed the part about the 97 civic part.

There not to bad to work on but i have a full set of tools etc to do it with.

Pull some directions off gogle and read up on it. Google images help too. If. You think you can do it it be a good dyi project.

Autoparts testing is pretty good on stuff like that. Batteries and alternators on the car.

Good luck.

[honda]

"Electrical schematic can be dl here. Its a line diagram you pretty much follow it like a road map."

What link did you say you can view this at?

[honda]

So I got the car jump started and took it to car parts place to do the charging system test. I took it to two stores. The tech at the first store said the battery, alternator, and starter all tested as ok, so it was probably a bad/loose connection. The tech at the second store got the same test result, but said he thought the issue was something connecting to the starter, because when I tried to start the car (before the jump start) it didn't even try to start.

Couldn't that also just mean the battery didn't have enough charge to even try and start, if something is draining the battery?

Shop 1 test results have volts, amps, and time to start. Shop 2 test results have volts and time to start. Is this test reliable? Is there anything else I can do myself to determine where the problem might be? I'm not a mechanic.

[Dr_Snooz]

Is this test reliable?

No. You could flip a coin and be as accurate. Do the dash lights go dim when you try to start? Do you hear any clicking noises? Does the car sputter and chug to life slowly? Does the battery light ever come on while you're driving? These are things we need to know.

[Hauntd ca3]

So I got the car jump started and took it to car parts place to do the charging system test. I took it to two stores. The tech at the first store said the battery, alternator, and starter all tested as ok, so it was probably a bad/loose connection. The tech at the second store got the same test result, but said he thought the issue was something connecting to the starter, because when I tried to start the car (before the jump start) it didn't even try to start.

Couldn't that also just mean the battery didn't have enough charge to even try and start, if something is draining the battery?

Shop 1 test results have volts, amps, and time to start. Shop 2 test results have volts and time to start. Is this test reliable? Is there anything else I can do myself to determine where the problem might be? I'm not a mechanic.

What equipment did the "techs" use to test the batt, alt and starter ?
If they used one of those stupid wee digital battery testers, don't believe them, they are not even good for a sinker.
time to start is relative, some cars start real quick from cold , but more cranks required when warm.
go find an auto electrician to get starting, charging and batteries tested out.


test your alt by running the motor at 2000 rpm with all factory acc loads on except the wipers.
should hold at close to 14 volts , 13.5 minimum
check cranking voltage by disconnecting the coil ( the wee plug , not the ht lead ) wind it for 5 seconds and watch the voltage.
best done cold , anything less than 9.5 -10 volts suggests an iffy battery.
check for voltage drops on both live and earth sides between battery and chassis, battery and engine for earth, and battery + and starter battery terminal.
anymore than 0.1 volts and you may need to replace earth or positive leads. or remove and clean connections.
clean up the battery terminals and clamps.
a quick test for starters is crank it over and release the key , if the starter stops spinning real quick, the brushes are usually ok.
if it takes a few seconds to stop spinning, the brushes are prob getting worn and not making proper contact with the armature which results if poor cranking.
another one , is if the starter starts cranking slow and then picks up speed after a few revs , also suggests worn brushes

[Oldblueaccord]

1997 Honda Civic EX Charging System Wiring Diagram

sorry its small picture 2 min google search found it.

This website you are on now is for third generation Honda Accords. We have the FSM ,factory service manual, linked above. We don't have the FSM for a civic.

To me it sounds like you alternator is ok since when you jump start the car it will keep the motor running and you drove it too two different places. it at the very least is putting out minimal voltage and amperage to run the car. I think they do have something called ELD which can go bad or interfere with the charging of the battery but again this sight is for 3g accords not civics so this is a guess on my part.

Taking it to a mechanic might be your only option since you don't seem to be very interested in doing anything about it yourself. Just my observation. Nothing wrong with that I take my newer cars to the dealership all the time and dump my troubles on them. Thats what warranty is for.

[honda]

Thanks for the replies.

The equipment they used to test the charging system was a meter about a foot long, that tests the battery first, gives you the cca, then it tests the alternator under load and not, and it also tests what the starter does when you start the car.

Do the dash lights go dim? The only dash lights that are usually on when you start the car are the battery, cel light etc, and those are an illuminated image which is kind of hard to tell if the those dim or not. They all act normally, except the battery light stays on, indicating an issue with the charging system. The dash lights that are on when you turn the headlights on are different, you can tell when those are dimmer or brighter. I haven't tried starting the car with headlights on because I knew it was having trouble starting, but I suppose I could.

I don't hear any clicking noises when driving, nothing new. When I try to start the car, I'm not sure exactly what I hear, but it's not much. I don't hear the usual starting sound, or anything. I had the exhaust pipe replaced about a month ago (part of it), and ever since then, I hear a whirring or fluttering sound when I'm driving. Asked some mechanics about that, and they said it could be some gaps in the welding? they didn't seem too concerned about it.

The car doesn't sputter or start slowly. With a jump start, it starts right away. Although one time, when the battery was low, and I tried to start right away after connected to the good car battery, it started, revved high like 2500 rpm, and then turned off. Then I let it charge for a minute connected to the other car, and then it started, and it stayed on. Which makes me think something is draining the battery.

The battery light does not come on while I'm driving.

If I've been driving the car, and I stop momentarily, like for a few minutes, the car will restart. But if it sits for a day, that's when it didn't start, even with a brand new battery (I already replaced the battery in response to this issue).

oldblueaccord thanks for the link. I am interested in determining the problem myself, but I've never worked on an issue like this before, and don't really work on cars myself (but learn what I can). There are a lot of forum discussions out there and it can be very time-consuming to read through them all and see which recommendations really work, or are easier to understand than others.

ca3, what do you mean, crank it over and release the key? I haven't tested the starter much because if it is the starter that's an issue, I don't want to use up any starts left in it before I have to take it to a shop. Also, when it hasn't started, it doesn't crank over at all, it just does nothing.

[Dr_Snooz]

I'd say it's a bad starter solenoid. Try whacking it with a wrench or something next time it acts up (if you can reach it). If that makes it work, then definitely a bad starter.

[honda]

If it's the starter, why would it then start with a jump start (but otherwise doing nothing to the starter)?

[Dr_Snooz]

Chalk it up to the mysteries of life. Just hit it next time it's acting up. It's best if someone holds the key on start while you hit it. Please don't get hurt though. We don't want any Darwin awards here.

[Dr_Snooz]

What happens during a jump start is largely irrelevant in this case. You'd only need a jump if the battery is dead. If it were a dead battery, you'd have dimming lights, a slow crank and eventually clicking when you try to start.

What you have, as I understand it, is nothing when you try to start. That indicates either a bad starter or a bad ignition switch. If all the lights stay on while you try to start, then the ignition switch is probably okay. It's your starter or some super crazy wiring issue. Pray that it isn't a super crazy wiring issue.

[honda]

When I try to start the car, I'm not sure exactly what I hear, but it's not much. I don't hear the usual starting sound, or anything.

I didn't say I don't hear anything when I try to start the car. I'm just not sure what I'm hearing. Before this occurred, I didn't really listen to exactly what the car sounds like through each step of normally starting the car, so I'm not sure when I would hear a click, or how loud it would be.

A technician I talked to said it sounds like it could be the ground wire. He said that is a very common issue with this car, and it would do exactly what I'm describing.

[honda]

Ok, so I looked at the battery cables and clamps where they fit on to the battery posts, and measured a few things with a multi-meter. Across the battery terminals, I get 12.8V. When I connect from the negative battery terminal to metal under the hood of the car, I get 12.2V. Resistance from negative battery terminal to car--negligible to none, and resistance from positive battery terminal to car, negligible to none. I also checked the lights in glove compartment and trunk. I see the trunk light come on when I open the trunk. I don't see a light come on in the glove compartment when I open it (don't know where it is).

Does anyone know why I get less voltage measuring from the battery to the car as compared to across the battery terminals? 0.6V seems like a big difference.

I read the following in an article about checking resistance:

"Disconnect both battery cables. Connect the negative probe of the ohmmeter to the black battery cable and connect the positive probe of the ohmmeter to the car frame. Measure the resistance of this connection. It should be 0 ohms. If not, either the cable is bad or the ground wire to vehicle frame connection is bad.

Check the positive battery cable. Connect the positive probe to the positive battery cable and the negative probe to the car frame. This connection should have a high resistance. If it has a very low or zero resistance, then there is a short to ground on the positive side of the system."

Is this article correct?

[Hauntd ca3]

if you are getting .6v difference, that is considered a high voltage drop.
make sure the battery terminals and clamps are clean .
if the measurement between battery -ve and body are taken with the battery connected, it shouldn't read
12.2 volts, that would be showing a voltage drop of 12.2 volts.
check the voltage drop between the battery post and clamp, post and body earth and post and engine .
Any more than .1v can cause problems.

[honda]

With the car off, and without starting the car, I disconnected the negative cable on the battery, and then measured voltage across battery = 12.8V.

With car off, and with the negative cable still disconnected, I measured voltage from negative battery post to clamp, negative post to negative battery cable, and negative post to engine--all 12.2 V.

I read that you're not supposed to use a multimeter with both battery cables connected--that that damages the multimeter? So I disconnected the negative battery cable.

[Hauntd ca3]

using a multi meter with the battery connected wont do anything to it.
the only way to hurt a multimeter is using it as a ammeter and going directly between battery pos and neg which is a dead short for an ammeter.
Leave the battery connected and do the voltage drop tests I mentioned earlier.
do the same tests on the positive side between the battery and main fuse and battery and main battery terminal on the starter.
check the battery voltage while cranking as well.
when measuring the resistance between battery negative clamp and body, 1 ohm can make a huge difference, should be no resistance at all