Burnt rubber smell and white smoke?

[Karynne]

Hi everybody,

I'm the proud new owner of a 1987 Accord LXi Hatchback with 235k which I purchased from an auto tech college for $800 about four days ago. The car has had a lot of recent work done, but I'm still waiting for the instructor to get back to me with the full list of what was repaired/replaced. The car drives great for the most part with a few quirks here and there, but hey it's 25 years old, that's to be expected. None of its quirks were alarming until what just happened today.

So my husband and I parked in front of our apartment after returning from breakfast (about a 20 mile roundtrip) and noticed a burnt rubber smell after turning the car off. We popped the hood and started looking around when a fan kicked on, and we noticed some white smoke coming from underneath the air intake/air filter (sorry, I'm really new to cars so I don't know the technical name for it). It was only tiny wisps of smoke and barely noticeable. Once we were under the hood we couldn't find the burnt rubber smell, but it was still prominent in the cabin. While we were driving home the temp gauge read normal and the car was driving fine.

I called the instructor who we bought the car from and he said to let the car cool off then check the coolant level and inspect all the belts to make sure they aren't loose. So in about a half hour the car should be cool enough for me to pop the hood and check. I guess I'm just looking to see if this sounds familiar to anyone or if somebody has a better idea of what it might be. Like I said, I'm very new to cars so I appreciate your patience.

Just in case they're related here are the quirks I mentioned:
-Car pulls to the right when it gets above 60 mph (probably a tire or alignment issue).
-Car shakes and rattles quite a bit when stopped at a light (probably bad motor mounts) but the idle is smooth and steady at 750 rpms.
-Acts kind of funny after cold start- Idles at 2,000 for a few minutes, then surges between 1,000 and 1,500 for another few minutes, then gradually goes down to 750 where it idles perfectly. Everything about it seems normal, I'm just not sure it should be surging like that.
-Automatic transmission seems kind of sluggish in lower gears (could be I'm just not used to an older Honda).

[Dr_Snooz]

Usually smoke in that area comes from a leaky oil filter base gasket. The part is a few dollars and takes about 30 minutes to swap out at your next oil change. I can't think of anything that would smell like burning rubber, producing smoke like that. Are you sure you didn't smell burning wires or burning oil?

To fix your idle vibration, just turn the idle up closer to 900.

The pull is probably tires.

The surge is either a vacuum leak or low coolant. If the coolant is low, it should be filled and bled properly or the problem will persist.

Honda autos are usually very crisp and responsive. Start by adjusting the TV cable (goes from the throttle body to the trans) and change the fluid if that hasn't been done recently.

Also post pics of your hatch. We are big fans of the hatches around here.

[Karynne]

Thanks for the reply! I'm not totally sure it was burnt rubber I was smelling but my husband is convinced that's what it was, so I don't know. The instructor we bought it from is going to give me a list of all the work that was done on it tomorrow morning, so hopefully that will give us a better idea of what's going on.

I'm starting to think that maybe the presence of "smoke" is clouding the issue (I apologize for the awful pun). My husband stuck his face right in it and said that it didn't have any smell, so it could have been steam. It was a super tiny amount too, if we hadn't had the hood open we never would have noticed it.

The instructor thinks the burnt rubber smell indicates an issue with one of the belts, so I'm going to poke around under the hood tomorrow and look for any obvious problems with them. The car hasn't been making any weird noises though which is why a belt problem wasn't the first thing that came to mind. But like I said, I'm new to cars, so what do I know.

As for all the other info, thank you that's a huge help!

Okay, and hopefully this works (I've never uploaded pics to a forum before), but here are some pics of the hatch. Keep in mind I just got this car so these are "before" pics, not how she'll look when I'm done fixing her up.




It's only been four days but I'm already smitten with her

[2oodoor]

Are my eyes playing tricks or is that an interesting graphic decal along the lower side of the side moulding?
The smell sounds exactley like what Dr Snooz said, but its a bugger to get to on an Lxi unless you have a car lift.
The wandering idle is likely low coolant, the fast idle contol is high up on the motor and coolant paases thru it so if the level is low it doesnt get a quick read on the coolant temp so in a manner of words it gets confused lOl. Top off the coolant and bleed the air out at the bleeder by the thermostat housing.
The transmission cable from the throttle is a way for contoling shift points by detecting throttle position, similar to early eighties Fords. If left out of adjustment it can eventualy toast the transmission ... Also similar to those Fords. Its is not solely for kickdown downshifts but it does also work for that.

[POS carb]

If you aren't sure where it's coming from the best thing to do is:

Top your fluids off and keep an eye on the levels over the next week or two. It may be coolant, engine oil, power steering oil, or transmission oil.

Park over a cardboard which could help you pinpoint the location of a leak. Some leaks only happen while the car is running. Knowing the general location of the leak will make it easier to find

[Karynne]

Thanks everyone for your input, I really appreciate it. I have some more info, so hopefully that will help narrow it down...

So today we popped the hood to check the coolant level (it was full) and inspect all the belts (they were perfect). Looked under the car to see if we could spot any puddles or leaks (none noticeable) or anything stuck to our undercarriage that could have been the source of the smell/smoke (nada).

We drove the car around for twenty minutes or so trying to recreate the drive we took yesterday and test the car's performance. Everything was exactly the same. It brakes fine, accelerates quickly, idles smooth, climbs hills well. So there aren't any obvious issues while driving.

When we parked and got out we noticed the same burnt rubber smell from yesterday and followed our noses to the source, which was under the car. Nothing was red hot, but the smoke and burnt smell was definitely coming from somewhere on the undercarriage. I didn't get a look under the car but the husband did and said he thinks it is the catalytic converter that's smoking, but he's not 100% sure where the catalytic converter actually is on this car. Does anyone have a helpful diagram of the undercarriage of an '87 LXi that can point us in the right direction?

The instructor/mechanic guy still hasn't gotten back to me with the list of what has been done on the car, so I'll call him again tomorrow. I ordered a Haynes manual a few days ago and it should arrive either tomorrow or Saturday, hopefully that will give me a better idea of what I'm actually looking at under the car.

So, does a problem with the catalytic converter fit the symptoms I've described (smoking undercarriage and burnt rubber smell)? Sorry you guys, I know I'm a total noob. :P

PS: I realized last night that I posted this in the EFI section as opposed to the general technical section, so if any moderators would like to move it there it would be most appreciated. Or if someone knows how I can move it myself that works too.

[Karynne]

2ooDoor: Nope, your eyes aren't playing tricks on you. It's a series of tiny pinstripes that run the length of the car on both sides, nothing too crazy. I wouldn't mind keeping them but they're stick-ons that are already peeling off so I'm just waiting for some good weather to go out and finish removing them.

[2oodoor]

If it runs good the cat converter may be ok. One thought that also comes to me is sometimes my brakes smell like that, a distinctive burning smell that isnt oil or fluids.

[Karynne]

Yeah, I thought it might be the brakes too but after seeing the smoke again I don't think that was it. The mechanic/instructor did remember they had done some brake work on the car, although he couldn't recall specifics. The smoke was coming from further under the car which is why we were thinking either exhaust or converter, but I don't know what else is under there that could be the source. Maybe since it's driving fine there is just something dripping onto the catalytic converter that's causing it to smoke?

[Karynne]

Update: I put a huge piece of cardboard under the car last night, and sure enough when I checked it (about 14 hours later) there were two quarter sized oil leaks under the engine. One is right under the serpentine belt, and the other is about a foot to the left of that one. My best guess at this point is that somehow oil is leaking onto the catalytic converter and burning off, thus causing the smoke and smell.

Without taking off the catalytic converter I can't tell if there is any internal damage, but I can't remove it since I don't have a car jack or any tools. Also I'm currently unemployed so the hubby is the breadwinner and he doesn't want to spring for a tool set or pay for a mechanic.

Still waiting for the guy to get back to me about the work they did on it, but I doubt I'm going to hear from him before Monday. Also, no Haynes manual yet. Apparently this is not my week because on top of the car having issues our vacuum cleaner exploded (not a good thing when you have eight pets that shed a lot), and my cell phone has mysteriously stopped being able to make and receive calls. I'm not sure what I did to anger the technology gods, but they seem to be pissed at me. Ugh.

[Buzo]

The full manual can be downloaded from here. https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthrea...ownload+manual it will make you guys experts in no time. Sorry you already spent the money buying the haynes manual.

[cygnus x-1]

If you have an oil leak it's quite possible there is some dripping down onto the exhaust somewhere and burning off. It's not a huge problem as long as there isn't tons of oil dripping onto the the exhaust. In extreme cases it can become a fire hazard, but you would see LOTS of smoke if that were the case.

It's also possible that some piece of debris from the road made it's way up onto one of the exhaust pipes or converter. You could try taking it to a car wash that has an undercarriage wash and maybe that will knock it off.

Otherwise I would just do like suggested above, keep an eye on all the fluids and see how it goes.

C|

[Karynne]

The full manual can be downloaded from here. https://www.3geez.com/forum/showthrea...ownload+manual it will make you guys experts in no time. Sorry you already spent the money buying the haynes manual.

Thanks, I've been perusing it for a few hours already. It's definitely very helpful, my computer is just really slow so it takes forever to scroll to the sections I need. I saw a paper copy of it on ebay but they wanted $50 for it, so that will have to wait. The Haynes manual was only $4 after shipping so even if it's totally useless I'm only out a few bucks.

I wish my husband was more on board in regards to helping me with the car but he's made it very clear that it's "my car" not "our car" and therefor not his responsibility. He has a 50cc scooter that he drives around town so he doesn't really have any incentive to care whether the Honda runs or not.

I'm really eager to learn how to do my own work on the car, it's just hard coming into it with zero knowledge of cars and nobody to teach you what's what under the hood. I'm hoping that I can wear him down on the tool issue because I'm pretty sure between a good basic tool set, the manuals, and this forum I can do most of the maintenance and repairs myself (without his help). LOL, enthusiasm should count for something right?

[Karynne]

If you have an oil leak it's quite possible there is some dripping down onto the exhaust somewhere and burning off. It's not a huge problem as long as there isn't tons of oil dripping onto the the exhaust. In extreme cases it can become a fire hazard, but you would see LOTS of smoke if that were the case.

It's also possible that some piece of debris from the road made it's way up onto one of the exhaust pipes or converter. You could try taking it to a car wash that has an undercarriage wash and maybe that will knock it off.

Otherwise I would just do like suggested above, keep an eye on all the fluids and see how it goes.

C|

I'm pretty petite so I was able to crawl under the car with a flashlight today and I looked over the whole undercarriage, there wasn't anything out of the ordinary. When this started a few days ago I was really hoping it was just a plastic bag or piece of tire tread that had gotten wedged somewhere near the exhaust, but no such luck it seems.

I'm going to warm up the car again tomorrow and try and get some close up video of the converter smoking to see what you guys think. I don't have any pressing reason to keep driving the car around so I'm not going to risk it. Are two oil leaks the size of quarters (over a 14 hour period) considered minor or major leaks? I have no concept of what constitutes a "minor leak", LOL.

[POS carb]

I wouldn't worry about it. just make sure the engine has oil, keep a quart in the trunk. sounds like you have a front crank/cam seal leak or valve cover leak by the timing belt. The valve cover seal is easy to change, cam and crank seals are a bit more involved.

catalytic (#1) is located under the car, around the parking brake/between the front seats. it's the fat can after the braided pipe (#6)

[cygnus x-1]

I'm going to warm up the car again tomorrow and try and get some close up video of the converter smoking to see what you guys think. I don't have any pressing reason to keep driving the car around so I'm not going to risk it. Are two oil leaks the size of quarters (over a 14 hour period) considered minor or major leaks? I have no concept of what constitutes a "minor leak", LOL.

This is the official oil leak scale (ok, it's not really official, I just made it up):

No leak
Negligible
Minor
Major
Serious
Exxon Valdez


I would say you're on the high side of negligible. My second car was firmly in the Major category, bordering on Serious. It needed a quart added about every 2 weeks.

Oil leaks are kind of a way of life with older cars. The number one culprit is the valve cover gasket, second is the distributor seal. The oil filter base gasket is also a prime suspect. These are all relatively easy to replace. Other things like the oil pan gasket and main seals are also leak paths but not so easy to replace.

C|

[Oldblueaccord]

I'm pretty petite so I was able to crawl under the car with a flashlight today and I looked over the whole undercarriage, there wasn't anything out of the ordinary. When this started a few days ago I was really hoping it was just a plastic bag or piece of tire tread that had gotten wedged somewhere near the exhaust, but no such luck it seems.

I'm going to warm up the car again tomorrow and try and get some close up video of the converter smoking to see what you guys think. I don't have any pressing reason to keep driving the car around so I'm not going to risk it. Are two oil leaks the size of quarters (over a 14 hour period) considered minor or major leaks? I have no concept of what constitutes a "minor leak", LOL.

Well since you enthusiastic about working on your own car there is a lot out there in youtube vids, wiki reading etc. tools are important but knowledge is also a tool as well.

one of the first things I use as a tool for "how well my car is running" is miles per gallon. I would fill the tank full drive it 100 miles or close then refill until the handle clicks off and note the gallons used. Moved the decimal point "back two" and thats you mpg. 25 to 30 would be good.

The converter for our cars is near where the shifter is so for oil to leak under there might be a big leak. Any chance its not just a plastic grocery sack melted on there they can be pretty stinky? The cat as its called can run very very hot as I am sure you have read so be carefull around it after you have driven it.

While driving it I would suggest buying/carrying a small fire extinguser. There handy in a pinch in any car and you might help out someone else in an emergancy as well.


wp

[Karynne]

Thanks for the tips everybody, they've been really helpful. I'll be getting some tools after the first of the month, so then I'll probably pop off the cat to have a looksy. Your guys' reaction to the oil leaks makes me feel a lot better. I've been taking the car out for short trips around town and it's still driving fine.

When I bought the car it was filthy so until I get my tools I'm just focusing on getting it cleaned up. For the last two days I've been working on the interior (about 10 hours total). Turns out underneath all the dirt and grime of neglect there's a near mint interior. The seats, dash, steering wheel, pretty much everything is in perfect condition. Well, everything but the carpet that is. I spent atleast four hours scrubbing and it's as clean as it's going to get, although it still has some stains.

[ShyBoyCA6]

May i Suggest watching ww.youtube.com/EricTheCarguy channel. This man explains everything so well that a beginner would gain confidence to do work on their cars. He has some videos on Hondas that i think they are great for learning.

By any chance when you were looking around for the oil leak, did you notice the exhaust pipe covered in oil? Is the engine bay clean? If the engine bay is clean you'll know where to look a lot faster.

You said you have oil leaks from the belt and a foot to the left? Could be that there is oil leaking on the exhaust for sure. From the belt side it could be these 3: i'm gonna say its the Front Main Seal, the Oil Pan gasket or the Cam shaft seal. These 3 can be tricky and you need Patience to do these as this is not a easy task to do. The one on the left could be the oil filter gasket or oil filter base gasket as Dr.Snooz mentioned. I would of put Oil Pump gasket that that may rule out but could be a possibility. In order to really know the covers have to come off.

[Karynne]

May i Suggest watching ww.youtube.com/EricTheCarguy channel. This man explains everything so well that a beginner would gain confidence to do work on their cars. He has some videos on Hondas that i think they are great for learning.

By any chance when you were looking around for the oil leak, did you notice the exhaust pipe covered in oil? Is the engine bay clean? If the engine bay is clean you'll know where to look a lot faster.

You said you have oil leaks from the belt and a foot to the left? Could be that there is oil leaking on the exhaust for sure. From the belt side it could be these 3: i'm gonna say its the Front Main Seal, the Oil Pan gasket or the Cam shaft seal. These 3 can be tricky and you need Patience to do these as this is not a easy task to do. The one on the left could be the oil filter gasket or oil filter base gasket as Dr.Snooz mentioned. I would of put Oil Pump gasket that that may rule out but could be a possibility. In order to really know the covers have to come off.

Thanks for the link, I'm surprised I hadn't stumbled onto that channel yet (I'm kind of a Youtube junkie).

Yeah, when I clean up the exterior I'm going to do the engine bay as well so I can locate those pesky leaks. I want to remove all the pinstriping before I detail the exterior but those stickers are really caked on there and it's been slow progress. I've pretty much realized those suckers aren't going to come off without a hairdryer so now I've got to pick up an outdoor extension cord and wait for dry weather (but this is Washington so I'm not holding my breath).

After I spent some more time looking under the hood I'm fairly certain the leaks line up with the oil filter and oil pump, so I probably have some leaky gaskets. When I crawled under the car the entire undercarriage looked really clean except for some carbon deposits (?) on either side of the catalytic converter, so I think the oil leaks are unrelated to whatever is going on with the cat. The hubby thinks the car is running a little rich so maybe the cat is slightly clogged? At this point there's really no way to know for sure until I take off the cat and see if there's any internal damage, which is my first order of business once I get my tools and jack stands.

Completely unrelated question: Are there any advantages to hollowing out my catalytic converter? My car is old enough it never has to go through emissions so do I really need it? I'm not sure where my husband's deep-seated hatred of cat converters comes from but he really wants to hollow it out. What do you guys think?

[cygnus x-1]

After I spent some more time looking under the hood I'm fairly certain the leaks line up with the oil filter and oil pump, so I probably have some leaky gaskets.

Oil leaks around the timing cover (where the oil pump is) can be tricky. The oil could be coming from the oil pump, front main seal, cam seal, or valve cover gasket. The valve cover gasket is the easiest to replace by far. The others require removing the belts, crank pulley, and timing cover; which can be a pain.

This also brings up the issue of the timing belt. I don't remember the factory specified replacement interval, but I would put it at around 80k miles or 8 years. If it's been longer than either or those the timing belt should be replaced.

When I crawled under the car the entire undercarriage looked really clean except for some carbon deposits (?) on either side of the catalytic converter, so I think the oil leaks are unrelated to whatever is going on with the cat. The hubby thinks the car is running a little rich so maybe the cat is slightly clogged? At this point there's really no way to know for sure until I take off the cat and see if there's any internal damage, which is my first order of business once I get my tools and jack stands.

Carbon deposits around the exhaust indicate a leak, although it could also be oil burning off the case. If you get a look down there with the engine running you might be able to see/hear the leak (if there is one).

Completely unrelated question: Are there any advantages to hollowing out my catalytic converter? My car is old enough it never has to go through emissions so do I really need it? I'm not sure where my husband's deep-seated hatred of cat converters comes from but he really wants to hollow it out. What do you guys think?

LOL! Hollowing out the cat is sort of a guy thing. If it really is clogged then yes, hollowing it out could help the engine performance and fuel mileage. But most likely the only difference it will make it to make the exhaust louder. Technically it is illegal to tamper with the cat at all (except to replace it) but people do it all the time (myself included). In my case I was replacing the entire exhaust system and just didn't want to buy a new cat. No emissions testing here either for cars older than 1996.

I think you will probably find that it's not so easy to remove. The bolts usually rust up and seize after so many years. It may also be welded on, in which case you would have to cut it off with a torch/saw/cutting tool.


C|

[Karynne]

Oil leaks around the timing cover (where the oil pump is) can be tricky. The oil could be coming from the oil pump, front main seal, cam seal, or valve cover gasket. The valve cover gasket is the easiest to replace by far. The others require removing the belts, crank pulley, and timing cover; which can be a pain.

This also brings up the issue of the timing belt. I don't remember the factory specified replacement interval, but I would put it at around 80k miles or 8 years. If it's been longer than either or those the timing belt should be replaced.





Carbon deposits around the exhaust indicate a leak, although it could also be oil burning off the case. If you get a look down there with the engine running you might be able to see/hear the leak (if there is one).




LOL! Hollowing out the cat is sort of a guy thing. If it really is clogged then yes, hollowing it out could help the engine performance and fuel mileage. But most likely the only difference it will make it to make the exhaust louder. Technically it is illegal to tamper with the cat at all (except to replace it) but people do it all the time (myself included). In my case I was replacing the entire exhaust system and just didn't want to buy a new cat. No emissions testing here either for cars older than 1996.

I think you will probably find that it's not so easy to remove. The bolts usually rust up and seize after so many years. It may also be welded on, in which case you would have to cut it off with a torch/saw/cutting tool.


C|

Thanks for all the tips! I'm still working on removing the pinstripes but after I'm done with that I'll take it down the street to the self serve car wash and clean up the engine. Hopefully that will help with pinpointing the leaks.

The instructor finally got back to me today and informed me that there aren't any computer records of what they did to my car, but this is what he could remember off the top of his head:
Timing belt
Water pump
Front drive axle/axles (he couldn't remember if they did both)
Brakes
Fuel pump

Troubleshooting any exhaust leaks is definitely on my to do list. For now, I'm kind of taking a break from any mechanical stuff until I get some basic tools. Instead I'm just focusing on cleaning up the interior/exterior as it was pretty neglected before I got it. She's coming along quite nicely, here she is after a quick wash...


As for the cat, I'm glad to hear his obsession is normal, LOL. Hopefully removing it won't be a total pain in the ass, but if it is I might just make him do it since he wants to hollow it out so badly.

[Karynne]

Okay, quick update:
So, took the car in for an inspection yesterday. Ended up getting the rear upper control arms replaced (they said the rear upper ball joints were very worn). The front ones are on their way out as well, but they weren't as urgent. They also had to replace the driver side front axle. Apparently the students at the college I bought my car from installed an axle from a manual car and since my car is an automatic it didn't fit. Ugh. So, $600 later here we are. They also found that my distributor seal is leaking onto my exhaust, and needs to be replaced, so I added that to my ever-growing to do list. But, after doing some more research I read that the distributor could be leaking internally but from the outside would appear to just be a leaky seal. My head officially hurts...

My front tires were pretty worn, so they recommended I change them out soon. Luckily I have a full set of studded tires that came with the car, and the mechanic said I can just pull the studs out with pliers and voila I have new tires.

They checked the transmission fluid and said it looked really clean like it had been replaced recently, so they just topped it off with some more Honda ATF. It shifts really smoothly now, and I realized the sluggish response in lower gears that I had noticed was a lack of power not a problem with the tranny not upshifting correctly. My car has 235k with an unknown history, would Seafoam in the gas tank be a bad idea at this point? I don't want to cause further problems if my engine is being held together by carbon deposits, lol. Is there some kind of test I can do that will tell me if my engine can handle it?

One of the instructors at the school I bought it from felt really bad that they sold the car to me without actually inspecting it first, so he's offered to come in on his day off and help me tune it up and fix some of the problems I've been having with it. I'm not one to turn down free car repairs so my mother and I are going to make a trip up to Port Angeles to get that taken care of. Hopefully the car doesn't give me too much trouble after that, because since I've brought it home it seems like a new problem pops up every time I start it.

[ShyBoyCA6]

Problems are to be expected in older cars. Just keep a list what you already replaced and inspect everyand so miles as recommended in the manual. Sucks your putting out more money on your car but in the end you will have a good running car. Yes you can seafoam the car i seafoamed mine and work alot better. Just remember to put new oil in as its gonna have those carbon deposits in the oil. Expect alot of smoke and make sure your neighbors are ok with it so throwing out that much smoke. after the seafoam do a complete tune up if they havent and the car would be be more responsive. Look up videos on how to seafoam properly.

[Dr_Snooz]

I recommend against Seafoaming. It can create more problems than it solves. In general, stick with good quality gas and fluids and be scrupulous with the maintenance.

You should expect a few repairs with any used car. As long as you don't have a slipping transmission or engine bearing knock, it should be fairly manageable. Learning to do your own work is the best way to save money on that.