A Tale of Woe

[profquad]

I have a shameful tale to tell but it must be told for the benefit of others not to make the same mistakes..
I have a lovely little 1986 LX-i automatic I've put 70,000 miles on myself. Enjoyed every one of them.
The engine was leaking oil out of everywhere and siezed on a mountain just over a year ago. I found another A20A3 in Idaho for $250 + $250 shipping and kept on chugging.
However the mechanics did a whack job and she started overheating. By the time I got her home I did everything I could to get the cooling system working at its best.
Here's my first mistake. Some people on the internet say you can just run water, but I do not recommend this! I ran water plus some redline anti rust liquid and after 2 weeks, guess what? Rusted.
I've changed the coolant a few times did a citric acid flush and backflushed with a hose but still rust. Finally, most recently, I ran vinegar and water for a day, then flushed again. However, this time when I clamped the garden hose into the upper coolant hose I forgot to take out the thermostat! HUGE MISTAKE!
Pressure built up quickly, and while I was still standing by the spigot, I witnessed a fountain of water shoot into the sky from a tiny bit of hose by the engine. That same amount of pressure that ruptured the hose also pressed on the engine block and, I fretted, the head gasket.
In my frantic haste replacing the hose and looking for other compromised pieces, I failed to neutralize the acid, although I did run the hose for a long time (after taking out the thermostat of course).
Here's where it gets nasty. I refilled with coolant and distilled water, and as it rose to the top, I saw this foamy brown stuff. My coolant has been reddish brown from rust for a while now, and the hoses are clearly dirty, so I was thinking of replacing them, but this foam was new. I thought maybe the basic coolant was reacting to the acidic vinegar? I hadn't turned on the engine yet, so I doubted it being the impeller making chocolate milkshake with the oil. Also, the flow of pressure should have gone into the engine, not the cooling.
Coincidentally, my timing belt is going. It started making noise, I removed the cover, and its starting to shred. So I took it to a guy who knows old hondas and asked to test the coolant for oil before anything else.
He called back saying he took one look and its a blown head gasket, not worth fixing at its age. Didnt charge me anything, but said I should scrap the car.
Obviously, I don't want to do that.
There's no white smoke, and the oil dipstick hasnt changed level or color.
But I do need the timing belt replaced if I want to soldier on.

So here's a quick recap of lessons for the students, and a couple questions for the masters:

1.) Don't run pure water in your radiator for more than a couple days!

2.) Remove the thermostat before backflushing with a garden hose!

Q1.) Is it worth it to replace the timing belt and put some blue devil in the coolant and keep going as long as I can?

Q2.) If so, what is reasonable to pay for a timing belt replacement/what about doing it myself? I obviously have a lot to learn, and at this point, very little to lose.

[Donnyten]

I feel you. Warning: Long as hell read

You'd have to ask yourself if it's worth keeping the car, or getting another one. Unless you're getting a brand new car, My theory is that no matter what kind of used car you get, it will always incur problems down the line simply due to mileage on parts, wear and tear. But you know, if you start with a newer used car you'll have a better opportunity to boot when it comes to longevity and availability of parts. With an car/engine that old, me personally, and what I have recently done, is to tear down the entire engine completely if you can afford to do it. I didn't take compression and leak down measurements before i did, i should have especially in regards to the cylinder head. I was given an 88 accord lxi with an automatic, actually, i purchased it for 150 bucks down payment and the guy tried to sell it to me for 500. i ended up not paying the rest after discovering so many latent problems this car has/had.

The engine had oil leaks everywhere galore, front main seal, oil filter housing, oil pan leaking, distributor seal leak, valve cover gasket leak, breather black box leak ( back of engine).. weird thick rusty coolant shit in the engine, radiator, heater core.. all hoses brittle, worn, seized sensors ( couldn't remove without shit breakin), back door wouldn't open, entire exhaust system rusted beyond belief, clogged catalytic converter, radio not working, and generally an oily ass engine. shit was covered in oil. I was going to actually give it back to him but he let me keep it.. even so, I was going to junkyard it. I decided to keep it , and work on it. I knew it would cost a little money. So I told myself I would completely break down the engine, down to the block, while still in the car, and rebuild as much as a can from the ground up with the engine still in car.

So I did that. Came up with a plan. Ordered a rebuild kit from rock auto. it came with a timing and serpentine belt, new pistons and rings, standard rod and main bearings, misc gaskets and seals. I took the old pistons out, because I knew with the age of the vehicle, the rings were worn, and so were the pistons. The head gasket was so old and so stuck to the block and head surface i couldnt just pick it off. So, after scraping as much as I could off , i took the straightest piece of wood I could get my hands on, used 3 grades of sandpaper glued to a few precut blocks, 80, 100, 120 respectively, and did a ghetto resurface but more so, getting the old gasket off and checking for flatness afterwards. Bling bling! a nice shiny block surface. The bearings were worn, really worn, both the main and rod bearings, checked the condition of the crank shaft and refitted them with new standard bearings, same with the piston rod caps. took old pistons to machine shop so they can fit the new pistons on the rods, changed oil pan gasket, bottom end of engine done. moved back to top of block. Satisfied to know the bottom end was done.. new oil pan gasket, bearings, piston rings and pistons, flat shiny surface. replaced the front main seal while i was down there. I also honed the cylinders.

following few weeks later did the cylinder head, took it apart, did a visual inspection for cracks... original one had a crack, so had to get another one from ebay. visual inspection not always telling, but limited on money. took the valves , camshaft, etc out. flattened the surface on the head as well with the same sand paper technique, nice shiny, and flat with a straight edge. did a ghetto leakage test by putting some water on top of the valves and taking some air and spraying beneath each combustion chamber to see if it leaked. did a little, so i ground the valves a bit to the seat and it worked like a charm. camshaft had a pit or two on a lobe but at that point i was running out of money so couldnt buy a new one. valves also had tons of carbon build up, carb cleaner works well for the stuff. changed the cam seal, boom, done. I wish I had more money, i would have just gotten a rebuilt head from ebay.

Deleted power steering ( don't need it , dont want to maintain antiquated tech, one less fluid to leak)changed the little o ring for the 'oil control jet', oil filter housing gasket, new water pump,new oil pump( came with rebuild kit) black box inlet o ring, new thermostat, new temp sensor and thermo switches, installed oil pressure gauge, new o2 sensors, retrofit a shrader valve for fuel pressure into the fuel filter, replaced the entire exhaust from front to back. flushed the engine a few times with liquid cascade ( worked extremely well), running the prestone universal 50/50 coolant stuff. Now I recently discovered both inner tie rod boots are torn sigh lol. going to replace those next when I work on the suspension.

I typed all that to say that if you want this car to work for you for a while as I do mine, i'd recommend getting really intimate with it. if you don't plan on keeping the car, you can use the blue devil crap but i'd prefer to get to the source than to use a makeshift fix. You could perform a few tests for head gasket issues, or if you already can tell by clouds coming from exhaust or milky coolant, then i'd just dive into a refresh of the engine. If your gonna do a timing belt you might as well dig a bit deeper and change other shit too, for the price of a timing belt change by a mechanic you could prolly get a rebuild kit from rock auto for the same price.

Only thing i could not get to is the rear main seal, which I will do when I change out the transmission or get it rebuilt once I get more money. the goal is to basically bring this car back to factory new as much as possible without a monthly car payment. Buying another used car would have only bought me more time. I'd get some tools, and getcha money on, even if you just want to change your timing belt. I wouldnt use the blue devil stuff though, at least check your head gasket and mating surfaces, check flatness for starters and ghetto resurface, if not comfy with it you can take it to a machine shop. I aint got time or money for that though.

[Dr_Snooz]

Unless you have extremely acidic water, like the kind that eats up plumbing, 2 days wouldn't have created all that rust. Nor would garden hose pressure have ruptured your hose. Face it. Your car is old and if you've neglected cooling system maintenance, you get to pay for it all now sadly. Hoses get old and need replacing. If one has failed, the rest are waiting in line behind it. Replace them all, flush the cooling system and refill with properly mixed coolant. It will take a while to get all the rust out and you may have to replace a few more items, like radiator, thermostat, etc. before you get it all worked out, but it can be done.

The mechanic probably doesn't want to deal with your mess. He'd rather change oil and spark plugs than get wrapped up in a head scratching money pit. Unless the car is really running bad, your head gasket is most likely fine. The foam is probably some reaction between the vinegar and coolant or whatever. Again, flush it, refill it and drive happy.

The timing belt is a big job and $600 is more than reasonable to have it done. Just remember: the less you pay, the less they'll do. A timing belt service will replace the belt, all front engine seals, tensioner and often the water pump too.

[profquad]

well, I decided to go for it, starting with the timing belt, which has been really chewed up. As I was taking the side engine mount off I noticed it was really loose on the engine.
Turns out, the part that it bolts into has completely broken off, and there were chunks of rusty iron bouncing around in my lower timing belt cover. It's just filled with dust from rubber and iron. Im not sure how to reattach the engine mount or what at this point.
Any crazy ideas welcome.

[profquad]

quick question: got the cam at TDC but not sure how to tell if the crank is lined up. theres a little dot on it and a little groove nearby but they're not lined up. please help!

[Dr_Snooz]

Are you saying you broke a bolt off the mount bracket? If so, you'll have to extract it. Which will be fun given the tight quarters. You'll need an extractor kit, a right-angle drill and some patience. but it can be done. Try to hit it with a bunch of Liquid Wrench in the hours before you try to extract it. If the bracket itself is broken, then just get another from the junkyard.

For the crank, you're looking for a line with a "T" next to it in the timing hole on the trans bell housing.

[profquad]

no, I didnt break anything. One of the protrusions that the bolt screws into on the engine block had broken off. I suppose this is why the belt was so shredded.
I used a longer bolt and blue threadlocker and padded that gap with rubber washers and replaced the mount. I think excessive shaking might have caused this, so i loosened and retorqued the front mount before tightening the new one on the side. I've seen some good tips for the shaking on here I'll have to investigate more. And I took the A/C compressor out to lighten the load by that sketchy mount.
But I got the belt on! I dont have a white mark or anything on my crank, couldn't find the arrow either, but the key lines up with the "up" on the cam and the valve-cover bolt.
Runs much better than before, although there is a slight whirling sound from the timing belt that is new..
I'm going to bring it to a shop so they can check the timing with a gun because I dont understand how that works.

If I see anything pointing to the head gasket I feel more confident about handling it now. woo!

[Dr_Snooz]

These motors have a lot of vibration. I am fighting oil pan bolts that keep backing out on mine. It's why Honda started using balance shafts on the 1990 Accord re-design. For us, we just need to use more Loctite and less anti-seize.

The crank marks can be hard to see. There is a lot of grease, rust, dirt and etc. on them by now. Last time I did mine, I had to shine a light down the hole and glob a paint pen over the marks to be able to see them. I'm sure I'll have to do it again by the next time too. Harbor Freight has a timing light for $30 if you want to give it a whirl.

Glad you got it figured out. Sounds like you are more than capable of doing a head gasket should it need it (I doubt it).

[InAccordance]

Had something similar happen to the gold accord I had before. The part of the block that juts out in between the timing belt that the actual mount then bolts to broke off and sent chunks of iron through the belt. One piece about the size of a dime got up to the cam sprocket and broke 3 of the arms of the gear itself. Destroyed the plastic cover with it. Engine was still running though even with a half broken cam gear. It was toast though cause there was no way to fix the part of the block that had broken off.
When you said something about the protrusion off the block breaking, that was the first thing I thought of and winced. Glad yours wasn't as engine killing as mine was.

[profquad]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Doc! Oh and i finally found confirmation in the Chilton manual that the key lining up with the cam's Top mark means we're lined up!
Damn InAccordance, now I feel lucky I didnt lose any teeth in this mess! Heres a pic of the break, and one of the aluminum chunks being lodged into the lower belt cover for the morbid:

[InAccordance]

Yea, you got lucky, on the one I had, that whole piece broke off entirely rendering the engine unusable.
I'd be worried about that though, seems like the mounting point would be weakened like that.